Does one haggle when hiring a lawyer?
June 12, 2022 8:54 AM Subscribe
I received a citation for reckless driving (in Virginia), and have been ordered to appear in traffic court. This is a fairly serious charge in Virginia (which can result in loss of driving privileges, significant fines, and – potentially – up to a year in jail), so I've contacted a highly rated lawyer who specializes in this. They've quoted me a flat fee to represent me in this case. Is it usual to make a counteroffer in this situation?
I've never hired a lawyer before, so I don't know how this works.
The lawyer did ask about my employment situation before quoting a fee, so I strongly suspect that the fee is calibrated to my (presumed) income. I can afford the fee without wincing too much, but it's not chump change – and I don't know how it compares to the going rate for this type of case, in this jurisdiction.
Is it commonplace to negotiate this fee? Is there any particular reason that I should or shouldn't?
Thanks.
I've never hired a lawyer before, so I don't know how this works.
The lawyer did ask about my employment situation before quoting a fee, so I strongly suspect that the fee is calibrated to my (presumed) income. I can afford the fee without wincing too much, but it's not chump change – and I don't know how it compares to the going rate for this type of case, in this jurisdiction.
Is it commonplace to negotiate this fee? Is there any particular reason that I should or shouldn't?
Thanks.
You know, you’re not the only one making a selection here. It’s the lawyer’s choice whether to take you on as a client. Lawyers evaluate from the get-go whether clients are going to be difficult, more effort than they are worth to represent. Telling the lawyer right off the bat you don’t think they’re worth their fee is a great way to have your case go unrepresented.
posted by shadygrove at 9:05 AM on June 12, 2022 [28 favorites]
posted by shadygrove at 9:05 AM on June 12, 2022 [28 favorites]
All of my experience comes from selecting home improvement contractors, but while I always get multiple quotes I never try to haggle with a professional. There’s no shortage of jobs for them to take instead.
If there’s a reputational reason you were drawn to this attorney, the fee is probably justified.
posted by hwyengr at 9:11 AM on June 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
If there’s a reputational reason you were drawn to this attorney, the fee is probably justified.
posted by hwyengr at 9:11 AM on June 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
If he's good at his job, and well-respected, he has a fee pre-established for this type of work. Doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc. don't haggle.
posted by mmf at 9:20 AM on June 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by mmf at 9:20 AM on June 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've never seen it done, and I can't imagine a successful attorney would negotiate on such a thing OR take you on as a client if you tried.
The reason he asked you your job isn't to "calibrate" your fee, it's to help him assess if he's going to have trouble collecting from you, and also it has ramifications for the outcome of your case (if you need your license to work, for instance.) CD attorneys get paid up front because otherwise collections are a giant headache. Telling him you're not happy with his fee is a great way to make yourself look like a client who's more trouble than they're worth.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:22 AM on June 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
The reason he asked you your job isn't to "calibrate" your fee, it's to help him assess if he's going to have trouble collecting from you, and also it has ramifications for the outcome of your case (if you need your license to work, for instance.) CD attorneys get paid up front because otherwise collections are a giant headache. Telling him you're not happy with his fee is a great way to make yourself look like a client who's more trouble than they're worth.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:22 AM on June 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
In this area of law, it's not common. You can ask him if he offers an alternative retainer + billable hours arrangement, but you may well not be happy with the financial results.
posted by praemunire at 9:36 AM on June 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 9:36 AM on June 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
No, it isn't the done thing to negotiate over a fee like this. Moreover, you can afford it, even if you may not want to spend the money. There is an alternative, of course: Hire a different attorney with a lower fee.
posted by slkinsey at 9:38 AM on June 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by slkinsey at 9:38 AM on June 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
No. I mean, if you don’t like his fee, you could choose to hire a less skilled lawyer instead of a highly rated one, or you could choose to represent yourself, both of which options will very possibly land you in jail, but I assume that’s not an attractive option for you.
Honestly, and I say this in the kindest way, I don’t know where Metafilter collectively seems to have gotten this deep-rooted idea that lawyers are obliged to give away their services for free, or charge less than their skills are worth. I doubt it would cross your mind to haggle with a doctor who was performing an appendectomy, or, hell, even an artist painting your portrait. So no, you don’t haggle with a “highly-rated” lawyer, especially one who might be the one responsible for allowing you to keep your liberty.
posted by holborne at 9:40 AM on June 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Honestly, and I say this in the kindest way, I don’t know where Metafilter collectively seems to have gotten this deep-rooted idea that lawyers are obliged to give away their services for free, or charge less than their skills are worth. I doubt it would cross your mind to haggle with a doctor who was performing an appendectomy, or, hell, even an artist painting your portrait. So no, you don’t haggle with a “highly-rated” lawyer, especially one who might be the one responsible for allowing you to keep your liberty.
posted by holborne at 9:40 AM on June 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: OK – that's a pretty clear consensus. Thanks.
If he's good at his job
You can ask him
if you don’t like his fee
She.
To be clear, I asked because I honestly didn't know the answer. (As I said, I've never hired a lawyer before.) Some degree of negotiation is entirely customary and expected in certain kinds of professional exchanges, and I didn't know whether this was one of them. The question was not motivated by a desire to be cheap, or to disrespect the lawyer (as several of you have insinuated). It was motivated by the desire to avoid shortchanging myself, in the event that such fees are typically quoted with the expectation that they are the opening bid of a negotiation.
Since that is clearly not the case, my question has been answered. Thank you.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 9:43 AM on June 12, 2022 [31 favorites]
If he's good at his job
You can ask him
if you don’t like his fee
She.
To be clear, I asked because I honestly didn't know the answer. (As I said, I've never hired a lawyer before.) Some degree of negotiation is entirely customary and expected in certain kinds of professional exchanges, and I didn't know whether this was one of them. The question was not motivated by a desire to be cheap, or to disrespect the lawyer (as several of you have insinuated). It was motivated by the desire to avoid shortchanging myself, in the event that such fees are typically quoted with the expectation that they are the opening bid of a negotiation.
Since that is clearly not the case, my question has been answered. Thank you.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 9:43 AM on June 12, 2022 [31 favorites]
I’m not sure about traffic cases but in general terms, yes, you can absolutely negotiate with a lawyer. The consensus here seems to be that asking would ruin your shot at being repped for this type of case.
But in many cases it’s worth respectfully asking about rate flexibility: the lawyer can always say no. Your tone can make you seem broke but inexperienced and respectful, just as much as it could show you as entitled or demeaning.
I have negotiated my rate with lawyers several times and it’s been cordial and successful. I’ve also sent them referrals for years later, so it’s not always a loss to them.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 9:44 AM on June 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
But in many cases it’s worth respectfully asking about rate flexibility: the lawyer can always say no. Your tone can make you seem broke but inexperienced and respectful, just as much as it could show you as entitled or demeaning.
I have negotiated my rate with lawyers several times and it’s been cordial and successful. I’ve also sent them referrals for years later, so it’s not always a loss to them.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 9:44 AM on June 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
"Repeat play" clients - like corporations - do haggle on lawyer's rates. It is very common to have a 10% or 15% discount to hourly rates for clients like that. But for one-off legal services, there isn't much incentive for the lawyer to discount the fees. If the lawyer is very reputable and experienced, he probably has more than enough work and it isn't worth it to him to discount to take on one more additional case. I would let it go, or get a few bids from other lawyers if you prefer to test the price.
posted by Mid at 9:44 AM on June 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Mid at 9:44 AM on June 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
It is very common to have a 10% or 15% discount to hourly rates for clients like that.
Way more, when you add up all the ways corporations try to extract a discount! OP's intuition was not absurd. But in this scenario, with a single client engaging for basically a defined package of services in routine circumstances, not so much.
posted by praemunire at 10:16 AM on June 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
Way more, when you add up all the ways corporations try to extract a discount! OP's intuition was not absurd. But in this scenario, with a single client engaging for basically a defined package of services in routine circumstances, not so much.
posted by praemunire at 10:16 AM on June 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
Thank you, OP for the "SHE" - from a retired she lawyer.
posted by furtheryet at 11:13 AM on June 12, 2022 [27 favorites]
posted by furtheryet at 11:13 AM on June 12, 2022 [27 favorites]
I agree with everyone saying no. As a lawyer, the one thing I think you can do without running a high risk of her just not wanting to take your case is to ask if she can do a payment plan, based on your financial situation. She might say no, but some criminal defense lawyers are fine with that, and it won't come across like you're questioning whether her time and expertise are worth that much money.
But yeah, DUI's are not cheap, and there is a lot of specialized expertise that goes into defending these cases, so if you are hiring someone well respected who specializes in this as opposed to a jack of all trades defense lawyer, it's worth it.
I also definitely wouldn't assume she set the rate based on her perception of how much you can afford--that would be unethical, she probably has a flat rate for this type of case, and it's normal to ask your clients about what they are doing for work (even if it's a pro bono case). You working and being a productive member of "society" (capitalism?) is helpful to your case and any negotiation she can work out for you.
posted by picardythird at 11:53 AM on June 12, 2022
But yeah, DUI's are not cheap, and there is a lot of specialized expertise that goes into defending these cases, so if you are hiring someone well respected who specializes in this as opposed to a jack of all trades defense lawyer, it's worth it.
I also definitely wouldn't assume she set the rate based on her perception of how much you can afford--that would be unethical, she probably has a flat rate for this type of case, and it's normal to ask your clients about what they are doing for work (even if it's a pro bono case). You working and being a productive member of "society" (capitalism?) is helpful to your case and any negotiation she can work out for you.
posted by picardythird at 11:53 AM on June 12, 2022
Response by poster: Again, to be clear (since this account is potentially traceable to my real identity): this was not a DUI.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 1:24 PM on June 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by escape from the potato planet at 1:24 PM on June 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
Yeah, the way you negotiate with a lawyer is to choose a cheaper lawyer. For what it's worth, of late I've had reason to conclude that $1500 is a good starting point for anything that requires a lawyer.
posted by rhizome at 2:09 PM on June 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 2:09 PM on June 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
escape, did you try checking rates with other lawyers in that specialty? I'm sure there are other locals who are well-respected, have good relationships with local judges, etc. Before I thought about negotiating with this one, I'd nose around for other recommendations and call a few other lawyers.
(Also, $1500 as a starting point for legal help for driving infractions seems very, very high to me, but I'm sure that depends on region.)
posted by mediareport at 5:49 PM on June 12, 2022
(Also, $1500 as a starting point for legal help for driving infractions seems very, very high to me, but I'm sure that depends on region.)
posted by mediareport at 5:49 PM on June 12, 2022
While I agree that it it would be somewhat unusual to counter a flat fee quote from a lawyer, in my experience it wouldn’t hurt to ask if there is any wiggle room. I wouldn’t expect much of a discount (if any) but it’s a reasonable question that a fair number of clients ask their lawyers.
posted by lumpy at 6:58 PM on June 12, 2022
posted by lumpy at 6:58 PM on June 12, 2022
$1500 as a starting point for legal help for driving infractions seems very, very high
It's not a driving infraction, though. I'm pretty sure "up to a year in jail" means misdemeanor. I could see traffic being a practice area with a lot of lawyer options and lower rates, but it may just be that this is actually more of a criminal defense situation.
posted by rhizome at 8:31 PM on June 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
It's not a driving infraction, though. I'm pretty sure "up to a year in jail" means misdemeanor. I could see traffic being a practice area with a lot of lawyer options and lower rates, but it may just be that this is actually more of a criminal defense situation.
posted by rhizome at 8:31 PM on June 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
Anecdata in case you decide the flat fee is too much:
She is most likely going to ask the judge to let you plead down to "Improper Driving."
FWIW, I was able to do that (representing myself) to a similar VA charge about 20 years ago. I don't remember the fine, but it was probably $250-300 altogether (adding in court fees).
Maybe I was lucky? I didn't have the greatest driving record at that time.
posted by kuanes at 3:16 AM on June 13, 2022
She is most likely going to ask the judge to let you plead down to "Improper Driving."
FWIW, I was able to do that (representing myself) to a similar VA charge about 20 years ago. I don't remember the fine, but it was probably $250-300 altogether (adding in court fees).
Maybe I was lucky? I didn't have the greatest driving record at that time.
posted by kuanes at 3:16 AM on June 13, 2022
It's not customary and it's a big red flag to the lawyer that might make them decline representation. The better course is to consult with a couple more lawyers,.and use that to figure out who you like at what price.
posted by J. Wilson at 4:45 AM on June 13, 2022
posted by J. Wilson at 4:45 AM on June 13, 2022
If it helps as a point of reference - someone I'm close to recently ran into this (most likely a very similar situation to yours, it's pretty common given VA's unusually strict speeding laws) and paid $900 flat for their lawyer. This person had a clean (but short) driving history and no other mitigating circumstances. The lawyer was solid, reliable, and got the charge down to a traffic infraction. Hard to say if they were "good" without another point of reference, but they seemed fine. I've seen a lot of discussion of this on sites like reddit and some folks in similar circumstances paid slightly less but ~$750-1,000 appears to be the going rate for a straightforward case.
I personally would not negotiate but I imagine you could contact multiple lawyers for quotes if you wanted to. There are many many firms that do this routinely.
posted by mosst at 8:36 AM on June 13, 2022
I personally would not negotiate but I imagine you could contact multiple lawyers for quotes if you wanted to. There are many many firms that do this routinely.
posted by mosst at 8:36 AM on June 13, 2022
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by yclipse at 9:03 AM on June 12, 2022 [9 favorites]