Faith healing a computer
June 2, 2019 7:24 AM Subscribe
My laptop just gave me the BSOD. everything I see about the error code I get suggests it's an easy fix, but they all refer to solutions I can't access (I do not have a start disk, and I cannot access any screen BUT the BSOD). Can someone walk me through what my options are, but explain it like I'm nine?
I cannot get to any of the start screens at all, just the booting-up screen with a manufacturers logo and then straight into that BSOD. It does not name a file that is giving the issue, only the error code.
It also actually was working fine this morning but then suddenly gave me a BSOD for "memory management" and tried restarting a couple times, then that happened.
Windows 10, HP pavilion laptop about 3 years old in good condition. I will not be back to work on this until the afternoon.
I cannot get to any of the start screens at all, just the booting-up screen with a manufacturers logo and then straight into that BSOD. It does not name a file that is giving the issue, only the error code.
It also actually was working fine this morning but then suddenly gave me a BSOD for "memory management" and tried restarting a couple times, then that happened.
Windows 10, HP pavilion laptop about 3 years old in good condition. I will not be back to work on this until the afternoon.
Response by poster: When you say "pull the battery and reseat the RAM" what dees that mean? Taking the battery out I understand, not the other bit.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:02 PM on June 2, 2019
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:02 PM on June 2, 2019
Response by poster: And should I do the battery thing before trying the startup repair?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:04 PM on June 2, 2019
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:04 PM on June 2, 2019
Try tapping F11 (or whichever key that particular model uses to get into BIOS) first.
Remove the battery to make sure there aren't any residual live cirucuits - reseating RAM while there's current could damage the RAM. For safety, wait a few minutes after removing the battery.
Ground yourself. Open up the panel that's hiding the RAM. Pull out the chip(s) (probably little black rectangles on a circuit board), carefully. Remember which orientation they are in originally.
After pulling all the chips, take a look at the contacts to see if there is any corrosion. Take a look at the slots to see if there's any dust/ debris. If there is, blow it out. If the contacts are corroded, you can try scrapping it off with a q-tip or the like. If there's corrosion, the slots probably have a bit of debris, too.
Re-seat the RAM, make sure they're all the way back in. Replace the battery and give it a shot.
It could be the RAM just went bad. If there are multiple chips, it's possible that only one of them is bad; you can try re-seating just one or the other.
posted by porpoise at 2:20 PM on June 2, 2019
Remove the battery to make sure there aren't any residual live cirucuits - reseating RAM while there's current could damage the RAM. For safety, wait a few minutes after removing the battery.
Ground yourself. Open up the panel that's hiding the RAM. Pull out the chip(s) (probably little black rectangles on a circuit board), carefully. Remember which orientation they are in originally.
After pulling all the chips, take a look at the contacts to see if there is any corrosion. Take a look at the slots to see if there's any dust/ debris. If there is, blow it out. If the contacts are corroded, you can try scrapping it off with a q-tip or the like. If there's corrosion, the slots probably have a bit of debris, too.
Re-seat the RAM, make sure they're all the way back in. Replace the battery and give it a shot.
It could be the RAM just went bad. If there are multiple chips, it's possible that only one of them is bad; you can try re-seating just one or the other.
posted by porpoise at 2:20 PM on June 2, 2019
Response by poster: I have NO IDEA how to do anything involving the Ram card and would probably be going to a repair shop for that. Should I have them do the whole thing and how much might this cost?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:24 PM on June 2, 2019
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:24 PM on June 2, 2019
If you can share the error message verbatim (maybe try to take a photo/ video of it if the message is transient), that might help diagnose the problem.
0xc0000428 is an error code for something that the operating system (OS, Windows presumably) got messed up and not a 'memory management' error (from which the suggestions to troubleshoot RAM comes from) unless the corrupted OS files are directly related to 'memory management.'
If it's just a bad RAM chip, getting it replaced shouldn't be very expensive. No more than $50 in labour and however much a new set of RAM costs (less than $100?). You might even upgrade to more RAM, making your programs less slow when you have a bunch of them open.
If it's the OS, most shops will have a recovery drive (typically on a USB stick nowadays) to diagnose, and usually fix, the software problem.
Creating a recovery drive isn't hard, but you'll need a functioning computer to make one, and be able to access BIOS before the bluescreen to tell the computer to boot from the recovery drive instead of the main harddrive.
(In either case, your data should be fine) - in the worst case you might have to reinstall the OS (and all the other programs you have on there); REMEMBER TO COPY YOUR DATA OVER before reinstalling the OS. Ask them to pull the drive and copy it to another hard drive first (or if you know exactly where your data is, just copy that). If you already have an external drive, bring it along with you if you take it to a shop.
If you take it to a shop, instead of explaining, tell them you get a bluescreen when you boot up and offer to show it to them.
If they go too far off script (recovery drive, troubleshoot the physical RAM), perhaps thank them and take it to another shop.
posted by porpoise at 6:12 PM on June 2, 2019
0xc0000428 is an error code for something that the operating system (OS, Windows presumably) got messed up and not a 'memory management' error (from which the suggestions to troubleshoot RAM comes from) unless the corrupted OS files are directly related to 'memory management.'
If it's just a bad RAM chip, getting it replaced shouldn't be very expensive. No more than $50 in labour and however much a new set of RAM costs (less than $100?). You might even upgrade to more RAM, making your programs less slow when you have a bunch of them open.
If it's the OS, most shops will have a recovery drive (typically on a USB stick nowadays) to diagnose, and usually fix, the software problem.
Creating a recovery drive isn't hard, but you'll need a functioning computer to make one, and be able to access BIOS before the bluescreen to tell the computer to boot from the recovery drive instead of the main harddrive.
(In either case, your data should be fine) - in the worst case you might have to reinstall the OS (and all the other programs you have on there); REMEMBER TO COPY YOUR DATA OVER before reinstalling the OS. Ask them to pull the drive and copy it to another hard drive first (or if you know exactly where your data is, just copy that). If you already have an external drive, bring it along with you if you take it to a shop.
If you take it to a shop, instead of explaining, tell them you get a bluescreen when you boot up and offer to show it to them.
If they go too far off script (recovery drive, troubleshoot the physical RAM), perhaps thank them and take it to another shop.
posted by porpoise at 6:12 PM on June 2, 2019
Google suggest that the Pavilions tend to use F10 as their 'enter BIOS' key. Turn it on and keep tapping F10 if it's too fast (or if BIOS is set to quick boot, which sometimes obscures displaying which key to use and minimizes the window of time where it'll work).
One some keyboards/ controllers, continuously pressing down on F10 sometimes doesn't work during the boot process; it times out after some tens of milliseconds instead of re-sending the keystroke automatically like in any other situation (I was building a new desktop this morning and couldn't figure out why the continuous-press wasn't working).
Hopefully you can get into BIOS before the bluescreen. That potentially gives you a few more options.
posted by porpoise at 6:19 PM on June 2, 2019
One some keyboards/ controllers, continuously pressing down on F10 sometimes doesn't work during the boot process; it times out after some tens of milliseconds instead of re-sending the keystroke automatically like in any other situation (I was building a new desktop this morning and couldn't figure out why the continuous-press wasn't working).
Hopefully you can get into BIOS before the bluescreen. That potentially gives you a few more options.
posted by porpoise at 6:19 PM on June 2, 2019
Getting into BIOS settings will do nothing to help fix a boot manager startup issue, which this is. The machine is already booting from the correct device, which is about the only relevant BIOS setting that could be changed here. Pavilion laptops use F11 to get into the recovery environment, which is the only inbuilt facility likely to be of use.
I have NO IDEA how to do anything involving the Ram card
If you'd be open to learning, it would be helpful to know the exact model number of your Pavilion. Otherwise I think the local repair shop is going to be your best option.
posted by flabdablet at 7:50 PM on June 2, 2019
I have NO IDEA how to do anything involving the Ram card
If you'd be open to learning, it would be helpful to know the exact model number of your Pavilion. Otherwise I think the local repair shop is going to be your best option.
posted by flabdablet at 7:50 PM on June 2, 2019
The nine-year old version. Most laptops these days have a couple of secret hidden areas on the disk. One of those hidden areas is usually a copy of the Windows install/recovery media (because nobody sends you an actual Windows CD anymore). You power off the computer, then turn it on and keep bashing on the F11 key and it should start up with that Windows recovery thing instead of trying to start your normal (now broken) Windows installation. The Windows install/recovery should be smart enough to fix your broken system.
Depending on your computer, other function keys can do other things like bring up the BIOS settings or let you choose which device you want to boot from. Some machines also include a hidden bit of disk with some hardware diagnostics that you can use to test your memory and such. There's also usually an option to use that install/recovery partition to completely wipe and re-install Windows so your machine is exactly back to where it was when you took it out of the box. Don't do that unless you're ready to sell it.
PS. a pencil eraser is awesome for cleaning edge contacts.
posted by zengargoyle at 1:35 AM on June 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Depending on your computer, other function keys can do other things like bring up the BIOS settings or let you choose which device you want to boot from. Some machines also include a hidden bit of disk with some hardware diagnostics that you can use to test your memory and such. There's also usually an option to use that install/recovery partition to completely wipe and re-install Windows so your machine is exactly back to where it was when you took it out of the box. Don't do that unless you're ready to sell it.
PS. a pencil eraser is awesome for cleaning edge contacts.
posted by zengargoyle at 1:35 AM on June 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
And if memory problems are a concern and there isn't a built-in hardware diagnosis thingy... MemTest86 has a bootable USB image.
Oh, this might help... HP Laptop Startup Boot Menu - Quick Guide looks like the ESC key brings up the menu of all of the other BIOS menus.
posted by zengargoyle at 1:45 AM on June 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Oh, this might help... HP Laptop Startup Boot Menu - Quick Guide looks like the ESC key brings up the menu of all of the other BIOS menus.
posted by zengargoyle at 1:45 AM on June 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I may have found a friend who can help - I asked on Facebook for a repair shop recommendation and said "it may just need a ram card reseated and a boot repaired" and someone said "oh I do that all the time at work, lemme see what I can do."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:15 AM on June 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:15 AM on June 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
I strongly recommend watching your friend work, getting them to explain what they're doing and why, and taking careful notes. Seriously, the main skills you need in order to start getting good at fixing shit like this are (a) asking for help when you get stuck, which you've clearly already got a lock on, and (b) not being afraid to have a crack; machines can sense fear and they will take liberties.
posted by flabdablet at 5:38 AM on June 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 5:38 AM on June 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
More 9yo explanation re: the business with the RAM: If your hard drive is your filing cabinet, your RAM is your active work table or desk. The suggestion to physically unseat/reseat the RAM is inferring that maybe something got stuck on that surface in your last work session, and that flipping the whole table over and then righting it may clear it off and let you start fresh. Sort of a deeper-level 'turning it off and on again'.
If that doesn't do it, then the Startup Repair bit is that your filing cabinet drawers got locked and the key fell out somewhere, preserving their contents but making it impossible for instructions to come out of there and onto the work table. The Repair process is meant to fix that.
Reseating the RAM should be less technically complicated than changing a tire, requiring only five minutes a small screwdriver to open a panel on the bottom, and a fingernail to pop out a small designed-to-be-removed circuitboard, blow on it for luck, and reinsert it. But if you have an experienced friend willing to try that for you, so much the better.
If you do have to do a Startup Repair yourself, one caution. Read all of the screens before reflexively Next-clicking your way through them. The process is pretty well automated nowadays, but it's not uncommon for it to run into a situation where it comes to you with a "Hey, I tried but couldn't fix it as-is. But what I CAN do is try erasing the whole disk and reinstalling Windows from scratch, which would lose all your files. Yes/No?" You don't want to accidentally click Yes on that. So if you get there, stop, shut down, unplug it and take it to a shop or an IT friend. They see this often enough that it's a familiar fix.
posted by bartleby at 7:31 AM on June 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
If that doesn't do it, then the Startup Repair bit is that your filing cabinet drawers got locked and the key fell out somewhere, preserving their contents but making it impossible for instructions to come out of there and onto the work table. The Repair process is meant to fix that.
Reseating the RAM should be less technically complicated than changing a tire, requiring only five minutes a small screwdriver to open a panel on the bottom, and a fingernail to pop out a small designed-to-be-removed circuitboard, blow on it for luck, and reinsert it. But if you have an experienced friend willing to try that for you, so much the better.
If you do have to do a Startup Repair yourself, one caution. Read all of the screens before reflexively Next-clicking your way through them. The process is pretty well automated nowadays, but it's not uncommon for it to run into a situation where it comes to you with a "Hey, I tried but couldn't fix it as-is. But what I CAN do is try erasing the whole disk and reinstalling Windows from scratch, which would lose all your files. Yes/No?" You don't want to accidentally click Yes on that. So if you get there, stop, shut down, unplug it and take it to a shop or an IT friend. They see this often enough that it's a familiar fix.
posted by bartleby at 7:31 AM on June 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: I linked my friend to this thread to give him all the details on the issue, and he said it should be easy and I'm meeting him after work tomorrow, so I'm leaving a note in here in case he checks back -
Hi K, thanks!!!!
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:42 AM on June 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Hi K, thanks!!!!
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:42 AM on June 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
The suggestion to physically unseat/reseat the RAM is inferring that maybe something got stuck on that surface in your last work session, and that flipping the whole table over and then righting it may clear it off and let you start fresh.
Seems to me that a closer analogy than having something stuck on the surface would be that parts of the desk itself might have fallen off, so that anything you put on it is liable to drop through a hole and get eaten by the alligators who live underneath. Re-seating the RAM cards is like re-tightening all the little Allen-key screws that hold the thing together.
If you don't keep your alligators under your desk I don't know what to say to you.
posted by flabdablet at 8:56 PM on June 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Seems to me that a closer analogy than having something stuck on the surface would be that parts of the desk itself might have fallen off, so that anything you put on it is liable to drop through a hole and get eaten by the alligators who live underneath. Re-seating the RAM cards is like re-tightening all the little Allen-key screws that hold the thing together.
If you don't keep your alligators under your desk I don't know what to say to you.
posted by flabdablet at 8:56 PM on June 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Hi - if anyone is there I am here with (consults my friend for a name) ChelseaClubFan and we have an interesting issue.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:38 PM on June 4, 2019
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:38 PM on June 4, 2019
Response by poster: Welp it looks like the OS is borked, as I am told. There is hope a repair shop can restore it okay, but I do still have to hit up a repair shop.
But I think I may have gained us a new Mefire, my friend was impressed by all y'all in the thread. Thanks, all.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:33 PM on June 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
But I think I may have gained us a new Mefire, my friend was impressed by all y'all in the thread. Thanks, all.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:33 PM on June 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
We spoke earlier by phone, but I totally forgot about MemTest86* which is a diagnostic on a bootable drive (which you've gotten to now) to test whether your RAM had gone rotten or not. It (used to, at least) takes a while, though.
*I remember MemTest86 from waay back in the '90s but looks like that it's been continually improved and there is a current '19 version (like the program ChelseaClubFan used to check your HDD's hardware integrity).
If ChelseaClubFan hasn't heard of it, let them know that that's another useful tool for these kinds of things.
But, yeah, it's probably a catastrophic corruption of some of the Operating System files. No idea how, but I like - and now subscribe to (basic) - BitDefender as an antivirus/ anti-most-everything-else. I also use Comodo Firewall (free) as a snoop to see whatever I don't explicitly allow to connect to the internet, is trying to connect to the internet (and be given the choice to let it or disallow it). This can be a first warning that there's malware active, and a delaying tactic to prevent malware damage before being able to try to disable the malware.
posted by porpoise at 9:22 PM on June 4, 2019
*I remember MemTest86 from waay back in the '90s but looks like that it's been continually improved and there is a current '19 version (like the program ChelseaClubFan used to check your HDD's hardware integrity).
If ChelseaClubFan hasn't heard of it, let them know that that's another useful tool for these kinds of things.
But, yeah, it's probably a catastrophic corruption of some of the Operating System files. No idea how, but I like - and now subscribe to (basic) - BitDefender as an antivirus/ anti-most-everything-else. I also use Comodo Firewall (free) as a snoop to see whatever I don't explicitly allow to connect to the internet, is trying to connect to the internet (and be given the choice to let it or disallow it). This can be a first warning that there's malware active, and a delaying tactic to prevent malware damage before being able to try to disable the malware.
posted by porpoise at 9:22 PM on June 4, 2019
In my experience, the malware most likely to cause deep corruption of Windows system files is provided by Microsoft itself, and goes by the name of Windows Update.
It's badly designed, intrusive, slow and fragile, and it's also more than capable of being confused by third-party security suites to the point of destroying the OS.
The least troublesome security arrangements I'm aware of for Windows 10 involve relying completely on the inbuilt Windows Firewall and Windows Defender security components, and doing all Internet browsing using Chrome or Firefox with the uBlock Origin advertising blocker installed.
Malwarebytes makes a good third party scanner if you're looking for suspected infections; when I use it I always make sure to turn all its realtime stuff off first, because I absolutely do not trust Windows Update not to get unexpectedly and catastrophically tangled up in it.
posted by flabdablet at 12:53 AM on June 5, 2019
It's badly designed, intrusive, slow and fragile, and it's also more than capable of being confused by third-party security suites to the point of destroying the OS.
The least troublesome security arrangements I'm aware of for Windows 10 involve relying completely on the inbuilt Windows Firewall and Windows Defender security components, and doing all Internet browsing using Chrome or Firefox with the uBlock Origin advertising blocker installed.
Malwarebytes makes a good third party scanner if you're looking for suspected infections; when I use it I always make sure to turn all its realtime stuff off first, because I absolutely do not trust Windows Update not to get unexpectedly and catastrophically tangled up in it.
posted by flabdablet at 12:53 AM on June 5, 2019
That said: bad RAM is also more than capable of causing terrible OS corruption even when Windows Update is doing only exactly what it was designed to do, and if there is any doubt about the reliability of the RAM in any given box it's a really really good idea to boot it into Memtest86 and leave that running overnight.
Getting Memtest86 or any other self-booting environment to work on a recent Pavilion will probably involve temporarily disabling the Secure Boot feature.
posted by flabdablet at 12:58 AM on June 5, 2019
Getting Memtest86 or any other self-booting environment to work on a recent Pavilion will probably involve temporarily disabling the Secure Boot feature.
posted by flabdablet at 12:58 AM on June 5, 2019
Response by poster: Likely-future-Mefite-Chelseaclubfan and Porpoise both had a quick phone confab (THANK YOU, porpoise, by the way!) while I was at LFMCCF's place, and they both agreed that it sounded like the OS was borked; LFMCCF would have gone further on my system if he'd had the time/resources, but didn't, so I am heading to a repair shop armed with both their step-by-step instructions to the repair guy. It sounds like they just need to restore the OS - for whatever reason my system wasn't able to access the repair drive.
The plan of attack is to back up my hard drive, restore Windows 10 if possible (or reinstall if not) and restore my data, so that I don't have to faff around with re-purchasing licenses and re-installing all my software. LFMCCF would have made a stab at it, but didn't have a spare hard drive to back up my data, and only had the professional version of Windows 10 on hand; he thought it best if the home version was on hand in case we needed to reinstall altogether. So that's why I'm being sent to a repair shop as they likely have it.
You'll all be pleased to hear that before LFMCCF sent me on my way, we called up this thread one more time and he read through the whole thing, using it as a checklist to see if anyone suggested something he hadn't yet tried. He was impressed by the calibre of advice here and is most likely going to join the site soon.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:26 AM on June 5, 2019
The plan of attack is to back up my hard drive, restore Windows 10 if possible (or reinstall if not) and restore my data, so that I don't have to faff around with re-purchasing licenses and re-installing all my software. LFMCCF would have made a stab at it, but didn't have a spare hard drive to back up my data, and only had the professional version of Windows 10 on hand; he thought it best if the home version was on hand in case we needed to reinstall altogether. So that's why I'm being sent to a repair shop as they likely have it.
You'll all be pleased to hear that before LFMCCF sent me on my way, we called up this thread one more time and he read through the whole thing, using it as a checklist to see if anyone suggested something he hadn't yet tried. He was impressed by the calibre of advice here and is most likely going to join the site soon.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:26 AM on June 5, 2019
for whatever reason my system wasn't able to access the repair drive.
When you say "repair drive", are you talking about an external USB drive with Windows Setup on it, or are you talking about the laptop's own inbuilt recovery partition?
If it's the former, you will almost certainly need to turn off Secure Boot in order to start up from it. If it's the latter, what happens when you tappity tap tap on F11 as the machine is powering up?
The plan of attack is to back up my hard drive, restore Windows 10 if possible (or reinstall if not) and restore my data, so that I don't have to faff around with re-purchasing licenses and re-installing all my software.
Reinstalling Windows will necessarily involve the tedious process of reinstalling all your application software as well, and if some of that application software has licence keys, you will most likely need to re-enter those during installation. This will be the case regardless of whether or not your personal documents are preserved during the Windows reinstallation process.
Given that this whole thing just happened after a spontaneous BSOD, I'm concerned about the possibility of an underlying hardware issue that, if left untreated, could easily make it impossible for the machine to back up its own hard drive correctly and/or badly corrupt its contents during a Windows reinstallation or point-in-time restoration. It would be well worth the effort to make yourself a Memtest86 boot stick and overcome whatever obstacles exist that stop you from booting up from it.
If you gave me that machine to repair with that history, the very first thing I would do to it would be to pop out its hard drive, stick it into a USB enclosure, and use a known-good machine to make a full backup of it while your now driveless laptop ran Memtest86 at least overnight.
posted by flabdablet at 6:45 AM on June 5, 2019
When you say "repair drive", are you talking about an external USB drive with Windows Setup on it, or are you talking about the laptop's own inbuilt recovery partition?
If it's the former, you will almost certainly need to turn off Secure Boot in order to start up from it. If it's the latter, what happens when you tappity tap tap on F11 as the machine is powering up?
The plan of attack is to back up my hard drive, restore Windows 10 if possible (or reinstall if not) and restore my data, so that I don't have to faff around with re-purchasing licenses and re-installing all my software.
Reinstalling Windows will necessarily involve the tedious process of reinstalling all your application software as well, and if some of that application software has licence keys, you will most likely need to re-enter those during installation. This will be the case regardless of whether or not your personal documents are preserved during the Windows reinstallation process.
Given that this whole thing just happened after a spontaneous BSOD, I'm concerned about the possibility of an underlying hardware issue that, if left untreated, could easily make it impossible for the machine to back up its own hard drive correctly and/or badly corrupt its contents during a Windows reinstallation or point-in-time restoration. It would be well worth the effort to make yourself a Memtest86 boot stick and overcome whatever obstacles exist that stop you from booting up from it.
If you gave me that machine to repair with that history, the very first thing I would do to it would be to pop out its hard drive, stick it into a USB enclosure, and use a known-good machine to make a full backup of it while your now driveless laptop ran Memtest86 at least overnight.
posted by flabdablet at 6:45 AM on June 5, 2019
Response by poster: Talking about both. When we tried the laptops inbuilt recovery partition we tappytappytapped F11 and it went right to the BSOD. When we tried the USB drive, I trust that my friend did indeed turn off Secure Boot since he is an IT professional and does this for a living. No dice either way.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:11 AM on June 5, 2019
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:11 AM on June 5, 2019
I did that for a living for quite some while, and the only reason I know about turning off Secure Boot is through having been enraged enough by the stubborn refusal of a particular customer's HP laptop to boot from an external drive to be bothered tracking down why. Worth checking explicitly with ChelseaClubFan to find out whether he's aware that HP does have this particular annoying roadblock turned on by default; many manufacturers leave it up to the user to turn it on if they want it.
Laptop manufacturers have found endless creative methods for trying to prevent technicians from fixing their broken shit. At least as annoying as HP's Secure Boot malfeature is Toshiba's belief that the Fast Boot setting in the BIOS, which usually just skips a few power-on self tests, should also skip checking for the existence of any boot medium other than the inbuilt hard drive even after the user has exercised the function key sequence for selecting an alternate boot. That one took me a long time to work out.
posted by flabdablet at 7:58 AM on June 5, 2019
Laptop manufacturers have found endless creative methods for trying to prevent technicians from fixing their broken shit. At least as annoying as HP's Secure Boot malfeature is Toshiba's belief that the Fast Boot setting in the BIOS, which usually just skips a few power-on self tests, should also skip checking for the existence of any boot medium other than the inbuilt hard drive even after the user has exercised the function key sequence for selecting an alternate boot. That one took me a long time to work out.
posted by flabdablet at 7:58 AM on June 5, 2019
Response by poster: Update!
First of all, many many thanks again for all of your advice. I haven't heard of ChelseaClubFan joining yet, but it's probably a matter of time (he's also moving and is the father of an infant, and is preparing for a job change, so his time is probably limited; he was thinking of signing up once he settled at the new gig). He was impressed by this place.
My computer has been at the repair center for a couple weeks now, and I've checked back a couple times; the center I took it to makes a point of doing a total diagnostic on everything that comes in as a matter of course. They backed up all my data first as I requested; that actually took a while, they said.
Then yesterday afternoon I got a call that they had moved on to trying to restore or wipe and re-install Windows, and couldn't even get THAT going, which lead them to suspect a motherboard problem. It would be about $600 for a new motherboard, did I want to proceed with that? I told them I'd think about it, and made a couple quick consults to Porpoise and CCF about alternate ideas.
But while I was doing that, apparently the repairman was having second thoughts about his diagnosis. He had the brainstorm that maybe it was the RAM card itself that had been the problem all along; the way Windows worked, he explained to me, is that it uses some of the RAM for operating, and if the RAM card crapped out while my machine was running, it could have corrupted Windows itself when it went down. And without a functioning RAM card, he also wouldn't have been able to do anything with the boot. He tried swapping out my RAM for a one he knew was good - and it worked! So now, he said, he would only have to replace my RAM card (for the much more reasonable price of $55), and then re-install windows and replace all my data from the backup they'd made.
His explanation makes a lot of sense, given how I remember things going wrong to begin with (first errors that memory had gone wrong and my system having to restart, and then the whole thing going down). It also will be a lot cheaper. CCF and porpoise said they concur with this, so I trust this outcome.
Thanks all!
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:31 AM on June 19, 2019 [2 favorites]
First of all, many many thanks again for all of your advice. I haven't heard of ChelseaClubFan joining yet, but it's probably a matter of time (he's also moving and is the father of an infant, and is preparing for a job change, so his time is probably limited; he was thinking of signing up once he settled at the new gig). He was impressed by this place.
My computer has been at the repair center for a couple weeks now, and I've checked back a couple times; the center I took it to makes a point of doing a total diagnostic on everything that comes in as a matter of course. They backed up all my data first as I requested; that actually took a while, they said.
Then yesterday afternoon I got a call that they had moved on to trying to restore or wipe and re-install Windows, and couldn't even get THAT going, which lead them to suspect a motherboard problem. It would be about $600 for a new motherboard, did I want to proceed with that? I told them I'd think about it, and made a couple quick consults to Porpoise and CCF about alternate ideas.
But while I was doing that, apparently the repairman was having second thoughts about his diagnosis. He had the brainstorm that maybe it was the RAM card itself that had been the problem all along; the way Windows worked, he explained to me, is that it uses some of the RAM for operating, and if the RAM card crapped out while my machine was running, it could have corrupted Windows itself when it went down. And without a functioning RAM card, he also wouldn't have been able to do anything with the boot. He tried swapping out my RAM for a one he knew was good - and it worked! So now, he said, he would only have to replace my RAM card (for the much more reasonable price of $55), and then re-install windows and replace all my data from the backup they'd made.
His explanation makes a lot of sense, given how I remember things going wrong to begin with (first errors that memory had gone wrong and my system having to restart, and then the whole thing going down). It also will be a lot cheaper. CCF and porpoise said they concur with this, so I trust this outcome.
Thanks all!
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:31 AM on June 19, 2019 [2 favorites]
if the RAM card crapped out while my machine was running, it could have corrupted Windows itself when it went down
Windows Update on a machine with bad RAM could certainly do this. In fact, writing to any file on a machine with bad RAM could potentially corrupt any file in the filesystem, including Windows system files.
Did your repair shop run an actual RAM test like Memtest86 to diagnose the bad RAM issue, or are they just guessing? Because this
trying to restore or wipe and re-install Windows, and couldn't even get THAT going, which lead them to suspect a motherboard problem. It would be about $600 for a new motherboard
...
while I was doing that, apparently the repairman was having second thoughts about his diagnosis. He had the brainstorm that maybe it was the RAM card itself that had been the problem all along
doesn't inspire much confidence in that repair shop's experience level. RAM failure is among the most common hardware failures I encounter, it's usually caused by connector issues rather than component failures, and usually cleaning and re-seating the RAM card edge connectors is enough to fix it.
posted by flabdablet at 12:43 AM on June 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
Windows Update on a machine with bad RAM could certainly do this. In fact, writing to any file on a machine with bad RAM could potentially corrupt any file in the filesystem, including Windows system files.
Did your repair shop run an actual RAM test like Memtest86 to diagnose the bad RAM issue, or are they just guessing? Because this
trying to restore or wipe and re-install Windows, and couldn't even get THAT going, which lead them to suspect a motherboard problem. It would be about $600 for a new motherboard
...
while I was doing that, apparently the repairman was having second thoughts about his diagnosis. He had the brainstorm that maybe it was the RAM card itself that had been the problem all along
doesn't inspire much confidence in that repair shop's experience level. RAM failure is among the most common hardware failures I encounter, it's usually caused by connector issues rather than component failures, and usually cleaning and re-seating the RAM card edge connectors is enough to fix it.
posted by flabdablet at 12:43 AM on June 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Honestly, I don't so much care HOW they got there so much as I am pleased THAT they got there.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:06 AM on June 21, 2019
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:06 AM on June 21, 2019
I'm wondering if it only had one stick of memory. It sorta sounds like even booting from USB didn't work. That could be that even loading Memtest or whatever other boot code into RAM failed in some crashy way. If there were two sticks of memory you could swap and try each individually (or just swap order) and maybe get it to boot. Not sure about BIOS but I'd guess it could work with no RAM (writing things to NVRAM) but getting USB to boot and Memtest to run requires enough good RAM to at least get started.
Still, known good RAM and booting Memtest from USB should have been first steps. If BIOS is functional and BSODs can happen and USB can fail to load and Video is working the likelyhood that the motherboard is the issue is down on the list after using other RAM and still not being able to boot from USB.
I can imagine the different boot paths loading code into different locations in memory and getting to various stages of booting before hitting the bad bits.
Hope it all works out EmpressCallipygos. You might be able to bump up your RAM since you're getting new. Like getting an 8G instead of 4G or getting two 8G for like $30 more if your laptop can handle it. Sometimes you can and sometimes you can't. Also a good time to go SSD if you had a HD. The RAM is a wash of maybe if you ever upgrade your whole laptop, but SSD is always easy to pop into an external USB enclosure and have more backup space.
posted by zengargoyle at 2:11 PM on June 22, 2019 [1 favorite]
Still, known good RAM and booting Memtest from USB should have been first steps. If BIOS is functional and BSODs can happen and USB can fail to load and Video is working the likelyhood that the motherboard is the issue is down on the list after using other RAM and still not being able to boot from USB.
I can imagine the different boot paths loading code into different locations in memory and getting to various stages of booting before hitting the bad bits.
Hope it all works out EmpressCallipygos. You might be able to bump up your RAM since you're getting new. Like getting an 8G instead of 4G or getting two 8G for like $30 more if your laptop can handle it. Sometimes you can and sometimes you can't. Also a good time to go SSD if you had a HD. The RAM is a wash of maybe if you ever upgrade your whole laptop, but SSD is always easy to pop into an external USB enclosure and have more backup space.
posted by zengargoyle at 2:11 PM on June 22, 2019 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: RAM is fixed, Windows is back, the repair guy even re-installed the most annoying things to re-install so I wouldn't have to and is putting all the data back. He's also only going to charge me for the parts and is not going to charge for labor. I can pick it up any time (will be getting it after work Monday).
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:12 PM on June 22, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:12 PM on June 22, 2019 [2 favorites]
He's also only going to charge me for the parts and is not going to charge for labor.
That right there would have me completely overlooking all the faffing about he did along the way to getting this fixed, and make me more than willing to say nice things about him to other people and send friends' jobs his way.
It should not have taken him two weeks to diagnose and rectify a RAM fault, and the way he's chosen to charge for this repair means that he knows that too and isn't happy about how long he kept you without a working machine. This is exactly the attitude you want in a tech. Well played, that man.
posted by flabdablet at 9:35 AM on June 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
That right there would have me completely overlooking all the faffing about he did along the way to getting this fixed, and make me more than willing to say nice things about him to other people and send friends' jobs his way.
It should not have taken him two weeks to diagnose and rectify a RAM fault, and the way he's chosen to charge for this repair means that he knows that too and isn't happy about how long he kept you without a working machine. This is exactly the attitude you want in a tech. Well played, that man.
posted by flabdablet at 9:35 AM on June 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Epilogue question if anyone's still hanging around:
Got the computer back, everything seems to be working great. I have only one small thing I'd like to adjust, that has nothing to do with the initial repair and everything to do with my setting everything back up (or, more accurately, with how I hooked Outlook up with my ancient and wheezing email ISP).
My email address is very, very, very old, and I had to go through a manual process to sync my account up to Outlook. I did successfully do that, and have been getting email just fine. I also have all my old emails that I received before the crash happened. However, they are in two separate places in my Outlook dashboard. I do not mind that this is the case.
The practical upshot of this is; when I open up outlook, it looks like I have two different mailbox accounts; one is my current email account, and the other is the older data. And right when I open Outlook, it shows me a "there's nothing to see here" message, and I have to manually click on my current inbox for it to start showing me email. (It retreives email, it just doesn't show it to me.) This is at most a minor inconvenience, but it would be ideal if Outlook could open my current inbox right away without that extra step. Is there anything I can do to bring that about?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:05 PM on June 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
Got the computer back, everything seems to be working great. I have only one small thing I'd like to adjust, that has nothing to do with the initial repair and everything to do with my setting everything back up (or, more accurately, with how I hooked Outlook up with my ancient and wheezing email ISP).
My email address is very, very, very old, and I had to go through a manual process to sync my account up to Outlook. I did successfully do that, and have been getting email just fine. I also have all my old emails that I received before the crash happened. However, they are in two separate places in my Outlook dashboard. I do not mind that this is the case.
The practical upshot of this is; when I open up outlook, it looks like I have two different mailbox accounts; one is my current email account, and the other is the older data. And right when I open Outlook, it shows me a "there's nothing to see here" message, and I have to manually click on my current inbox for it to start showing me email. (It retreives email, it just doesn't show it to me.) This is at most a minor inconvenience, but it would be ideal if Outlook could open my current inbox right away without that extra step. Is there anything I can do to bring that about?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:05 PM on June 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
You might try looking up instructions for 'merging outlook accounts' - and you should be able to specify which "account" is the default one (sounds like you want the old one) - afterwards, you might be able to delete one of them.
posted by porpoise at 12:50 PM on June 26, 2019
posted by porpoise at 12:50 PM on June 26, 2019
This thread is closed to new comments.
Immediately after switching it on, start tap-tap-tapping on the F11 key until you either get your BSOD again (boo!) or a screen labelled "Choose an option" (yay!)
If you do manage to get to choose an option, the options you probably want are Troubleshoot -> Advanced Options -> Startup Repair.
It also actually was working fine this morning but then suddenly gave me a BSOD for "memory management" and tried restarting a couple times, then that happened.
I'd be slightly worried about that, and I'd be tempted to pull the battery and then re-seat the RAM cards. It's possible that humidity and/or physical movement due to thermal cycling has degraded the connection between a card and its slot.
posted by flabdablet at 8:13 AM on June 2, 2019 [1 favorite]