Your honor, the speed limit was too low!
October 28, 2009 9:27 AM Subscribe
Are there any legal grounds for challenging a speed limit as being unreasonable?
I drive through a very small town on the way to work. The 2-lane highway is 55 mph before and after the town, but once you get inside the town, the road splits into 4 lanes and the speed limit drops to 45, 35 and then 20 within the span of about two city blocks. There is a stop light at the one intersection, but it is almost always green, so it doesn't do much to curb the inertia. No school zones.
I don't know if this is the same for everyone, but I normally have an intrinsic sense of the speed limit, such that I will almost always drive close to the speed limit even if I didn't see the sign. The road through this town is definitely a "35" road, and in fact I can't even drive under 30 unless I hold down the brakes the whole way through the town. 20 is nearly impossible for a 6-cylinder car. I typically catch myself going 40-42 mph because it feels natural.
This got me wondering: I could conceivably get my license suspended if I was clocked going 42 in a 20. There's always the route of challenging the cop's radar calibration, but I am wondering if there are any legal grounds for challenging the speed limit itself as being unreasonable. I realize this would require a more well-thought-out argument than "the speed limit was too low", but is there any way this could stand in court?
This is hypothetical, YANAL, YANML, etc. I'm just curious.
I drive through a very small town on the way to work. The 2-lane highway is 55 mph before and after the town, but once you get inside the town, the road splits into 4 lanes and the speed limit drops to 45, 35 and then 20 within the span of about two city blocks. There is a stop light at the one intersection, but it is almost always green, so it doesn't do much to curb the inertia. No school zones.
I don't know if this is the same for everyone, but I normally have an intrinsic sense of the speed limit, such that I will almost always drive close to the speed limit even if I didn't see the sign. The road through this town is definitely a "35" road, and in fact I can't even drive under 30 unless I hold down the brakes the whole way through the town. 20 is nearly impossible for a 6-cylinder car. I typically catch myself going 40-42 mph because it feels natural.
This got me wondering: I could conceivably get my license suspended if I was clocked going 42 in a 20. There's always the route of challenging the cop's radar calibration, but I am wondering if there are any legal grounds for challenging the speed limit itself as being unreasonable. I realize this would require a more well-thought-out argument than "the speed limit was too low", but is there any way this could stand in court?
This is hypothetical, YANAL, YANML, etc. I'm just curious.
This is probably one of the town's major sources of revenue. There's a stretch of I-95 that does the same thing through central Florida. (The town immediately preceding it put up a billboard that says WATCH OUT FOR [NAME OF TOWN] SPEED TRAP AHEAD.) It's totally lame, but I seriously doubt you'd be able to challenge it. You just need to pay attention.
posted by phunniemee at 9:31 AM on October 28, 2009 [7 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 9:31 AM on October 28, 2009 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: This is in Iowa. Small farm town.
posted by relucent at 9:33 AM on October 28, 2009
posted by relucent at 9:33 AM on October 28, 2009
What you're describing is a speed trap. Generally, the speed traps disappear after enough people get angry and complain to the state legislature or other higher, authorities. I would think if one was so egregious that some judge might throw out the ticket, but that's just a guess and backed up by absolutely nothing!
posted by Atreides at 9:34 AM on October 28, 2009
posted by Atreides at 9:34 AM on October 28, 2009
Not legal advice and IANYL, but I would expect that, unless you were prepared to produce expert witnesses that could testify that there was an inherent safety issue with the speed limit as posted, a court would offer strong deference to the traffic commission that set the limit, and you would lose. Even if you could find an expert, challenging an ordinance for public safety on the grounds that it is too restrictive and that you want to drive faster through their town seems like an uphill battle.
But let me know if you somehow prevail. The narrow-minded bureaucrats here in Boston have been denying me permits for my outdoor downtown skeet-shooting range, and it irks me to know end.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 9:41 AM on October 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
But let me know if you somehow prevail. The narrow-minded bureaucrats here in Boston have been denying me permits for my outdoor downtown skeet-shooting range, and it irks me to know end.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 9:41 AM on October 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
Another way to fight a ticket in a town with a speed trap is to demonstrate that the sign's placement does not conform to the applicable placement laws (local, state or federal, depending on the road's designation) governing the pole's distance from the curb, height, etc.
posted by carmicha at 9:46 AM on October 28, 2009
posted by carmicha at 9:46 AM on October 28, 2009
An acquaintance was just telling me about a situation where she lives where a speed trap like that exists--speed limits dropping very far very fast. Apparently, there are laws (this was in Ohio) about how far apart speed limit reductions have to be, and this particular one violates the law, and there has been litigation about it.
So, the speed trap you are describing may in fact be illegal, based on this one anecdote which was news to me. But whether anything can be done is another question.
posted by not that girl at 9:46 AM on October 28, 2009
So, the speed trap you are describing may in fact be illegal, based on this one anecdote which was news to me. But whether anything can be done is another question.
posted by not that girl at 9:46 AM on October 28, 2009
Small town speed trap, designed to keep the cops in ka-ching. You'll find them on a lot of US highways, and they're clearly covering their rears by having the "gradual" step down to 20. Just count yourself lucky that you're aware of it, because the intention is to empty the pockets of people who are taken by surprise.
posted by holgate at 9:47 AM on October 28, 2009
posted by holgate at 9:47 AM on October 28, 2009
Best answer: 2009 Iowa Code/Statutes(Code Chapters & Sections)/TITLE VIII TRANSPORTATION/SUBTITLE 2 VEHICLES/CHAPTER 321 MOTOR VEHICLES AND LAW OF THE ROAD/321.285 Speed restrictions.
It appears from this 20 mph is the limit for "business" districts, and though I haven't glanced at the exceptions, it'd be unlawful for the town to have a business district speed limit in excess of 20 mph. So it'd appear the town has to follow this progression, unless they designated those two blocks as business districts purely for the low speed limit. It'd appear that the law would be against you, unless you can take the statute to court.
Sorry for the lack of linkage, the Iowa Code doesn't seem to want to be link friendly.
posted by Atreides at 9:53 AM on October 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
It appears from this 20 mph is the limit for "business" districts, and though I haven't glanced at the exceptions, it'd be unlawful for the town to have a business district speed limit in excess of 20 mph. So it'd appear the town has to follow this progression, unless they designated those two blocks as business districts purely for the low speed limit. It'd appear that the law would be against you, unless you can take the statute to court.
Sorry for the lack of linkage, the Iowa Code doesn't seem to want to be link friendly.
posted by Atreides at 9:53 AM on October 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
Pictures of the billboards I referred to in my earlier answer (because they are hilarious; sorry for the derail):
Lawtey
Waldo
posted by phunniemee at 9:53 AM on October 28, 2009 [2 favorites]
Lawtey
Waldo
posted by phunniemee at 9:53 AM on October 28, 2009 [2 favorites]
This is probably one of the town's major sources of revenue. There's a stretch of I-95 that does the same thing through central Florida. (The town immediately preceding it put up a billboard that says WATCH OUT FOR [NAME OF TOWN] SPEED TRAP AHEAD.) It's totally lame, but I seriously doubt you'd be able to challenge it. You just need to pay attention.
Ha! I'm guess you mean either Waldo or Starke, which are actually on 301--both have these billboards. They gave my mother a ticket for going three miles over the speed limit in Waldo.
Seconding people who said that this is likely designed to be a speed trap, and a major source of revenue for the town. That it feels counterintuitive is a feature, not a bug, and probably particularly designed to mess with out-of-towners who aren't paying attention, as they're less likely to contest their tickets. However, since you're not an out-of-towner, and do know the score, the best choice is to just slow down and obey the speed limit.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:54 AM on October 28, 2009
Ha! I'm guess you mean either Waldo or Starke, which are actually on 301--both have these billboards. They gave my mother a ticket for going three miles over the speed limit in Waldo.
Seconding people who said that this is likely designed to be a speed trap, and a major source of revenue for the town. That it feels counterintuitive is a feature, not a bug, and probably particularly designed to mess with out-of-towners who aren't paying attention, as they're less likely to contest their tickets. However, since you're not an out-of-towner, and do know the score, the best choice is to just slow down and obey the speed limit.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:54 AM on October 28, 2009
It's commonplace for the speed limit to drop when going through a small town, both for legit reasons ("main street" isn't a speedway) and somewhat nefarious (ka-ching go the coffers!)
and in fact I can't even drive under 30 unless I hold down the brakes the whole way through the town.
This sort of argument just begs for sarcasm. C'mon, take another look at what you wrote. Can you really justify that having to use your brakes to slow down is some sort of unreasonable condition for operating a car?
posted by desuetude at 9:58 AM on October 28, 2009
and in fact I can't even drive under 30 unless I hold down the brakes the whole way through the town.
This sort of argument just begs for sarcasm. C'mon, take another look at what you wrote. Can you really justify that having to use your brakes to slow down is some sort of unreasonable condition for operating a car?
posted by desuetude at 9:58 AM on October 28, 2009
20 is nearly impossible for a 6-cylinder car
Yeah, gonna go ahead and call bullshit on this one as well. If you car really is idling that fast, you should have it looked at.
posted by lohmannn at 9:58 AM on October 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
Yeah, gonna go ahead and call bullshit on this one as well. If you car really is idling that fast, you should have it looked at.
posted by lohmannn at 9:58 AM on October 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
Presumably one could argue that it's precisely because of drivers' "intuition" about appropriate speeds on that stretch of road (based on a faulty understanding of local issues) that led them to explicitly lower the limit in the first place. While "obnoxious town running speed trap as cash cow" is easy to jump to, it's usually a big mistake to assume you know more about the topic than the people who live there.
posted by range at 10:04 AM on October 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by range at 10:04 AM on October 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
Speed limits going down like that are a nearly certain sign of a speed trap. Even if it's almost impossible (because what? your mighty V-6 car idles at 35? come on.) you would be wise to never, ever, ever, exceed that 20mph limit ever.
Though even simply obeying the speed limit is no guarantee that the locals won't just lie about your speed on a ticket if the funding is short some month.
There's a stretch of I-95 that does the same thing through central Florida.
You're probably thinking of Waldo, which is an infamous speed trap on US 301.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:08 AM on October 28, 2009
Though even simply obeying the speed limit is no guarantee that the locals won't just lie about your speed on a ticket if the funding is short some month.
There's a stretch of I-95 that does the same thing through central Florida.
You're probably thinking of Waldo, which is an infamous speed trap on US 301.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:08 AM on October 28, 2009
Best answer: Presumably one could argue that it's precisely because of drivers' "intuition" about appropriate speeds on that stretch of road
However, this is how speed limits are supposed to be set. Drivers have an intuitive sense of how fast they can travel on a road given it's layout and surroundings. Speed limits are supposed to be set (by Federal suggestion) at the 85th percentile of the speed that drivers would travel if no speed limit was set. If there were issues with pedestrian safety, then more signage and warnings would go up, and drivers would naturally slow down to compensate.
Artificially limiting the speed from the 85th percentile creates safety hazards as you're messing with driver expectation.
This has zero bearing in court, as municipalities can pretty much do whatever they want in regards to speed limits, but it's lousy engineering.
posted by hwyengr at 10:24 AM on October 28, 2009 [3 favorites]
However, this is how speed limits are supposed to be set. Drivers have an intuitive sense of how fast they can travel on a road given it's layout and surroundings. Speed limits are supposed to be set (by Federal suggestion) at the 85th percentile of the speed that drivers would travel if no speed limit was set. If there were issues with pedestrian safety, then more signage and warnings would go up, and drivers would naturally slow down to compensate.
Artificially limiting the speed from the 85th percentile creates safety hazards as you're messing with driver expectation.
This has zero bearing in court, as municipalities can pretty much do whatever they want in regards to speed limits, but it's lousy engineering.
posted by hwyengr at 10:24 AM on October 28, 2009 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: It appears from this 20 mph is the limit for "business" districts
Good find. The 20 mph limit begins about a block before the intersection whose cross-street is the "downtown" district... I have yet to see someone pulled over, so I would probably chalk it up to legal requirement rather than speed trap.
And to everyone who criticized the part about it being difficult to go the speed limit: back off, it's irrelevant to the question. All I said was that it doesn't feel natural to hold down the brakes for half a mile. That doesn't demand a critique of my driving ability. And I usually get passed by a lot of other cars as I go through the town, so I'm one of the slower ones.
posted by relucent at 10:26 AM on October 28, 2009
Good find. The 20 mph limit begins about a block before the intersection whose cross-street is the "downtown" district... I have yet to see someone pulled over, so I would probably chalk it up to legal requirement rather than speed trap.
And to everyone who criticized the part about it being difficult to go the speed limit: back off, it's irrelevant to the question. All I said was that it doesn't feel natural to hold down the brakes for half a mile. That doesn't demand a critique of my driving ability. And I usually get passed by a lot of other cars as I go through the town, so I'm one of the slower ones.
posted by relucent at 10:26 AM on October 28, 2009
Sure, you can raise the reasonableness of the speed limit, but not as a defense to a citation. "Stupid law" is not a recognized defense in any court. What you can do is point out the unreasonableness of the limit to the legislators who enacted it. If it is a local ordinance that set the limit, the local councilpeople are going to listen more to any friends of yours who actually live and vote in the jurisdiction, of course. These limits are often set due to local safety issues, not to milk out of town motorists, so it helps to be able to address those concerns.
posted by bearwife at 10:28 AM on October 28, 2009
posted by bearwife at 10:28 AM on October 28, 2009
There's a stretch of highway in my town that goes from 55 to 45 to 35 to 25. The speed limit drastically drops because it's the deadliest road in the city, perhaps even the state. I lost a good friend to an auto accident on that road, and was almost killed by another driver myself just last month on that same section of highway. It's not necessarily a speed trap, but in place to protect people.
Get your car checked if you can't keep it under 30 because that means you're speeding through residential neighborhoods as well (25mph zones). Even if you typically catch yourself "going 40-42 mph because it feels natural" you would still have been speeding even if it were a 35 mph zone.
posted by sephira at 10:56 AM on October 28, 2009
Get your car checked if you can't keep it under 30 because that means you're speeding through residential neighborhoods as well (25mph zones). Even if you typically catch yourself "going 40-42 mph because it feels natural" you would still have been speeding even if it were a 35 mph zone.
posted by sephira at 10:56 AM on October 28, 2009
All I said was that it doesn't feel natural to hold down the brakes for half a mile.
If you mean this -- that your car literally cannot go 20 without your foot on the brakes -- your car has very serious problems and requires immediate repair.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:19 AM on October 28, 2009 [3 favorites]
If you mean this -- that your car literally cannot go 20 without your foot on the brakes -- your car has very serious problems and requires immediate repair.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:19 AM on October 28, 2009 [3 favorites]
I'm not your lawyer.
I can't think of how you would challenge this, unless it runs against some existing law regulating how fast speed limits can drop over a particular distance. Failing that, you're not going to find any love in the constitutional realm.
posted by craven_morhead at 11:35 AM on October 28, 2009
I can't think of how you would challenge this, unless it runs against some existing law regulating how fast speed limits can drop over a particular distance. Failing that, you're not going to find any love in the constitutional realm.
posted by craven_morhead at 11:35 AM on October 28, 2009
All I said was that it doesn't feel natural to hold down the brakes for half a mile
Seconding the above comment - if your car is idling above 20 mph, you have serious mechanical issues and need to get it in to the shop as soon as possible. It is not safe to drive a car that idles this fast and you are probably damaging the engine by driving it in this condition. Are you following the regular maintenance schedule in the manual?
posted by 0xFCAF at 11:50 AM on October 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
Seconding the above comment - if your car is idling above 20 mph, you have serious mechanical issues and need to get it in to the shop as soon as possible. It is not safe to drive a car that idles this fast and you are probably damaging the engine by driving it in this condition. Are you following the regular maintenance schedule in the manual?
posted by 0xFCAF at 11:50 AM on October 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
Is the road a state highway? The full text of Iowa Code 321.285 refers to "reasonable and proper" speed limits, usually defined as the 85th percentile (as hwyengr mentioned). One approach is to request a copy of the traffic study used to support a lower limit.
posted by djb at 12:19 PM on October 28, 2009
posted by djb at 12:19 PM on October 28, 2009
Best answer: This is happening right now in my hometown. Some lawyers are teaming up to challenge the unreasonable speed limits based on state laws.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 12:42 PM on October 28, 2009
posted by Baby_Balrog at 12:42 PM on October 28, 2009
I would guess that what the OP meant by "hold down the brakes for half a mile" is not that his car idles as 20mph but that to slow down from 55 to 20 as he comes into town is some serious braking that feels like he's being asked to come screeching to a stop. Brake a bunch in the first 50 yards and you're still going too fast for the next block, brake some more, and good lord if they wanted to hear brakes screeching all day why didn't they just put a stop sign in.
I have this feeling sometimes when I come down a particular highway exit ramp that has no stop sign or signal, just a smooth merge into traffic... but that traffic is 30-40mph traffic. And man, 35 is way too slow to be going on the highway!! oh, wait not the highway any more.
My advice is to practice getting over that feeling. Stop off in that small town sometime when you're not in a rush to work. Stop the car. Cross the street. Buy a cup of coffee. Pull your car back out onto the main road. Does 20 feel too slow when you haven't just been speeding along?
Not to say that the speed limit might not be set too low, just that perspective varies more than you think.
posted by aimedwander at 12:48 PM on October 28, 2009 [2 favorites]
I have this feeling sometimes when I come down a particular highway exit ramp that has no stop sign or signal, just a smooth merge into traffic... but that traffic is 30-40mph traffic. And man, 35 is way too slow to be going on the highway!! oh, wait not the highway any more.
My advice is to practice getting over that feeling. Stop off in that small town sometime when you're not in a rush to work. Stop the car. Cross the street. Buy a cup of coffee. Pull your car back out onto the main road. Does 20 feel too slow when you haven't just been speeding along?
Not to say that the speed limit might not be set too low, just that perspective varies more than you think.
posted by aimedwander at 12:48 PM on October 28, 2009 [2 favorites]
Something to look into: here in California, there is a legal difference between speeds that are signed as "SPEED LIMIT" and those that are "MAXIMUM SPEED." The former avails you to reason that your speed was safe for the conditions, while the latter is a hard limit that is set by law (you can never go faster than that). "Maximum speed" applies everywhere, but a "speed limit" is (to a tiny degree) more flexible.
posted by rhizome at 12:50 PM on October 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 12:50 PM on October 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
There is a road near me that had a too-low speed limit successfully challenged in court recently. The township had lowered the speed limit on the road to 25 from 45 after years of demands from residents living along it, but since it was a county-access road, they'd never possessed the authority to do so. Once ruled against, the township dropped all unpaid speeding tickets on the road and replaced the signs as quickly and quietly as they could, hoping to avoid most of the inevitable appeals of past tickets.
So, you can do something about it if there's a higher level of law that supports you, at least.
posted by Pufferish at 1:30 PM on October 28, 2009
So, you can do something about it if there's a higher level of law that supports you, at least.
posted by Pufferish at 1:30 PM on October 28, 2009
It's hard to estimate whether a speed-limit is unreasonable from your description, but it does sound like it. Can you give some more specifics about the distances between speed limits or perhaps specify a latitude and longitude of the intersections?
I think one argument for illustrating an unreasonable speed limit would be to look at what deceleration is required to drop from 55mph to 20mph and to calculate this you need the distance between these speed-limits. There are probably county or state guidelines about these minimum distances.
That said, having your windows open when you are driving is pretty good at illustrating what speed you are doing. The difference between 20mph and 35mph on a bicycle is dramatic.
posted by a womble is an active kind of sloth at 2:03 PM on October 28, 2009
I think one argument for illustrating an unreasonable speed limit would be to look at what deceleration is required to drop from 55mph to 20mph and to calculate this you need the distance between these speed-limits. There are probably county or state guidelines about these minimum distances.
That said, having your windows open when you are driving is pretty good at illustrating what speed you are doing. The difference between 20mph and 35mph on a bicycle is dramatic.
posted by a womble is an active kind of sloth at 2:03 PM on October 28, 2009
You got a cite for that, rhizome?
Sure (also: wikipedia). The sign tells you which law applies.
posted by rhizome at 2:09 PM on October 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
Sure (also: wikipedia). The sign tells you which law applies.
posted by rhizome at 2:09 PM on October 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
As you don't indicate that in your question and your profile contains no hint of that either, there is no way to answer your question.
posted by dfriedman at 9:30 AM on October 28, 2009