How would I represent this logo in heraldic language?
September 29, 2006 4:41 PM Subscribe
Hey, SCAdians and genealogists: how would I represent this logo in heraldic language?
How would you represent this logo in the language of medieval heraldry, perhaps as a heraldic badge?
In case you're wondering, this is the logo for the piecepack game system. Here is the original spec for the logo.
The closest I have come to being able to define this logo heraldically is, Argent, a bordure sable, party quarterly; first, a sun in splendour, gules; second, a decrescent, sable; third, a fleur de lis, azure; fourth, a crown, vert. But I know this isn't right.
A few issues: (1) Green (vert) is acceptable as an alternate colour for the crown, according to piecepack conventions, which is good, because heraldry does not allow yellow against white. (2) There must be a better way of defining a square black border than "bordure", which is not necessarily square, and is supposed to be way too thick. (3) How do you describe the dotted lines that cross the square?
How would you represent this logo in the language of medieval heraldry, perhaps as a heraldic badge?
In case you're wondering, this is the logo for the piecepack game system. Here is the original spec for the logo.
The closest I have come to being able to define this logo heraldically is, Argent, a bordure sable, party quarterly; first, a sun in splendour, gules; second, a decrescent, sable; third, a fleur de lis, azure; fourth, a crown, vert. But I know this isn't right.
A few issues: (1) Green (vert) is acceptable as an alternate colour for the crown, according to piecepack conventions, which is good, because heraldry does not allow yellow against white. (2) There must be a better way of defining a square black border than "bordure", which is not necessarily square, and is supposed to be way too thick. (3) How do you describe the dotted lines that cross the square?
I'm not sure what yellow would be, but "vert" is green.
posted by tjenks at 7:36 PM on September 29, 2006
posted by tjenks at 7:36 PM on September 29, 2006
Oops, you got that. That'll teach me to read the whole post!
posted by tjenks at 7:37 PM on September 29, 2006
posted by tjenks at 7:37 PM on September 29, 2006
Does the black border even have to be blazoned, or can you get away with calling it an "artistic detail"? It's clearly not a bordure. Generally if you have an argent item with a fine black outline like that, the outline isn't blazoned... it's just an outline, an artist's choice used to mark the edge of the argent object.
I would call it a cross dotted throughout sable, though as furtive said, a cross dotted isn't really a normal charge... in fact, it's so thin I don't know that I would call it a cross, either. Though you can sort of fudge a blazon for this, it's not good heraldic style.
posted by litlnemo at 2:17 AM on September 30, 2006
I would call it a cross dotted throughout sable, though as furtive said, a cross dotted isn't really a normal charge... in fact, it's so thin I don't know that I would call it a cross, either. Though you can sort of fudge a blazon for this, it's not good heraldic style.
posted by litlnemo at 2:17 AM on September 30, 2006
Best answer: Argent, a cross diminutive Sable, tronconee demembre; in quarters first a sun radiant Gules; in second a moon increscent Sable; in third a fleur de lis Azure; in fourth, a coronet Or.
posted by fleacircus at 2:39 AM on September 30, 2006
posted by fleacircus at 2:39 AM on September 30, 2006
NO AUTHOR FOUND NO BACKLINK FOUND "because heraldry does not allow yellow against white."
Since when? There are many examples of Or (gold/yellow) on an argent field. Check the Queen's coat of arms, for example.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 7:13 AM on September 30, 2006
Since when? There are many examples of Or (gold/yellow) on an argent field. Check the Queen's coat of arms, for example.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 7:13 AM on September 30, 2006
"because heraldry does not allow yellow against white."
I learned this, too, back when I was on a heraldry kick in middle school. No metals (or/argent) or furs (ermine/vair) on top of each other. Wikipedia agrees.
I also might start out with "a square shield Argent..." to define the non-traditional shape of the shield.
posted by Rock Steady at 8:56 AM on September 30, 2006
I learned this, too, back when I was on a heraldry kick in middle school. No metals (or/argent) or furs (ermine/vair) on top of each other. Wikipedia agrees.
I also might start out with "a square shield Argent..." to define the non-traditional shape of the shield.
posted by Rock Steady at 8:56 AM on September 30, 2006
Since when? There are many examples of Or (gold/yellow) on an argent field. Check the Queen's coat of arms, for example.
There's no argent at all on her coat of arms.
In any case, no metals on metals or furs on furs is a convention, and one that is not absolute.
posted by solid-one-love at 10:23 AM on September 30, 2006
There's no argent at all on her coat of arms.
In any case, no metals on metals or furs on furs is a convention, and one that is not absolute.
posted by solid-one-love at 10:23 AM on September 30, 2006
D'oh. I was thinking of a specific version, which is simply displayed ona white background. My bad.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 1:28 PM on September 30, 2006
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 1:28 PM on September 30, 2006
Best answer: Sorry had to run, couldn't verify some of my differences with what furtive said.
The cross is too small to be good heraldry but it should be called diminutive, and I think tronconee demembre is basically right..
The sun is radiant, not in splendor, or it would have a face.
The moon is decrescent, I was wrong.
It's a coronet, not a crown. Crowns are for kings and have those loopy tops going back to the center.
I think it's okay to have metal on metal when it's a figure and not a 'primitive'. Normally the yellow crown would have a black outline and maybe some detail work in black too. But since it doesn't, in this case it might be better done in vert...
posted by fleacircus at 10:10 PM on September 30, 2006
The cross is too small to be good heraldry but it should be called diminutive, and I think tronconee demembre is basically right..
The sun is radiant, not in splendor, or it would have a face.
The moon is decrescent, I was wrong.
It's a coronet, not a crown. Crowns are for kings and have those loopy tops going back to the center.
I think it's okay to have metal on metal when it's a figure and not a 'primitive'. Normally the yellow crown would have a black outline and maybe some detail work in black too. But since it doesn't, in this case it might be better done in vert...
posted by fleacircus at 10:10 PM on September 30, 2006
Response by poster: fleacircus, "tronconee demembre", beautiful!
What do you think of Rock Steady's "A square shield Argent..."?
posted by rwhe at 1:47 AM on October 1, 2006
What do you think of Rock Steady's "A square shield Argent..."?
posted by rwhe at 1:47 AM on October 1, 2006
Response by poster: To sum up, how is this?
A square shield Argent, a cross diminutive Sable, tronconee demembre; in quarters first a sun radiant Gules; in second a moon decrescent Sable; in third a fleur de lis Azure; in fourth, a coronet Vert.
posted by rwhe at 1:50 AM on October 1, 2006
A square shield Argent, a cross diminutive Sable, tronconee demembre; in quarters first a sun radiant Gules; in second a moon decrescent Sable; in third a fleur de lis Azure; in fourth, a coronet Vert.
posted by rwhe at 1:50 AM on October 1, 2006
Best answer: I thought "badge" was better than a square shield. But maybe it works..
Not sure I'm right about the crown.. apparently that crown is a crown vallary.
Check your wording against examples from here possibly. I've done all I can do as a rank amateur!
posted by fleacircus at 11:33 PM on October 2, 2006
Not sure I'm right about the crown.. apparently that crown is a crown vallary.
Check your wording against examples from here possibly. I've done all I can do as a rank amateur!
posted by fleacircus at 11:33 PM on October 2, 2006
Best answer: So:
A square badge Argent, a cross diminutive Sable, tronconee demembre; in quarters first a sun radiant Gules; in second a moon decrescent Sable; in third a fleur de lis Azure; in fourth, a crown vallary Vert.
I'm starting to think some of this is needless overspecification from the details of the graphic above. For example, many kinds of crown would be compatible with the spec.
posted by rwhe at 12:06 PM on October 3, 2006
A square badge Argent, a cross diminutive Sable, tronconee demembre; in quarters first a sun radiant Gules; in second a moon decrescent Sable; in third a fleur de lis Azure; in fourth, a crown vallary Vert.
I'm starting to think some of this is needless overspecification from the details of the graphic above. For example, many kinds of crown would be compatible with the spec.
posted by rwhe at 12:06 PM on October 3, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
Argent, a cross dotted Sable, quartered of the first a sun in splendour Gules; of the second a decrescent Sable; of the third a fleur de lys Azure; of the fourth, a crown Vert.
Good luck!
posted by furtive at 6:11 PM on September 29, 2006