Copyeditor help, please
August 18, 2019 12:25 PM Subscribe
Hi. The sentence I'm editing reads, "the services that infrastructure deliver haven't changed." Now, "infrastructure" being a mass noun, countable or uncountable, would mean you can say "infrastructures deliver" or "infrastructure delivers," but not "infrastructure deliver," right?
Response by poster: Me too. But this engineer uses it like it's a thing.
posted by noelpratt2nd at 12:34 PM on August 18, 2019
posted by noelpratt2nd at 12:34 PM on August 18, 2019
Just change the sentence: the services delivered by that infrastructure haven't changed. Very slightly more passive voice, but evades the disagreement entirely.
posted by gideonfrog at 12:38 PM on August 18, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by gideonfrog at 12:38 PM on August 18, 2019 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Ah, sure. Thanks, but this is a quote.
posted by noelpratt2nd at 12:39 PM on August 18, 2019
posted by noelpratt2nd at 12:39 PM on August 18, 2019
Best answer: Does he use it in other contexts? If it's just in this one, it's possible he's mistaken "the services" for the subject of "deliver."
But either way, he's wrong, "infrastructure delivers" is unambiguously correct, and there's no need to change the structure of the sentence to avoid the situation.
(I am a copyeditor, in case it matters.)
posted by nebulawindphone at 12:39 PM on August 18, 2019 [8 favorites]
But either way, he's wrong, "infrastructure delivers" is unambiguously correct, and there's no need to change the structure of the sentence to avoid the situation.
(I am a copyeditor, in case it matters.)
posted by nebulawindphone at 12:39 PM on August 18, 2019 [8 favorites]
There have been no changes in the services delivered via infrastructure.
posted by bwonder2 at 12:40 PM on August 18, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by bwonder2 at 12:40 PM on August 18, 2019 [1 favorite]
It might make sense if "infrastructure" is a reference to a team of people.
posted by quacks like a duck at 12:42 PM on August 18, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by quacks like a duck at 12:42 PM on August 18, 2019 [1 favorite]
Sorry i just saw it's a quote. Isn't deliver relative to services not infrastructure?
posted by bwonder2 at 12:42 PM on August 18, 2019
posted by bwonder2 at 12:42 PM on August 18, 2019
Response by poster: Yeh, not a mistake. He continues like it just became cool (sending editors back to "those damn books, all on a Sunday afternoon otherwise lazy).
posted by noelpratt2nd at 12:44 PM on August 18, 2019
posted by noelpratt2nd at 12:44 PM on August 18, 2019
It could make sense if "that infrastructure" refers to some specific and previously mentioned kind of infrastructure.
posted by flabdablet at 12:44 PM on August 18, 2019
posted by flabdablet at 12:44 PM on August 18, 2019
Best answer: Infrastructure delivers services. Therefore, we refer to the services that infrastructure delivers. The author you quoted is incorrect; depending on the context, you could correct it without comment, add the appropriate [s], or add a [sic].
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 12:49 PM on August 18, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 12:49 PM on August 18, 2019 [3 favorites]
I am also a copy editor, in case you're tallying votes, and I say "delivers" is correct.
posted by BlahLaLa at 12:51 PM on August 18, 2019
posted by BlahLaLa at 12:51 PM on August 18, 2019
Response by poster: I knew I was right, I just wasn't sure how. :) Thank you!
posted by noelpratt2nd at 12:53 PM on August 18, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by noelpratt2nd at 12:53 PM on August 18, 2019 [1 favorite]
Writer and editor here: "delivers" is correct, and the sentence as written needs a (sic). That's because the verb form of delivers vs. deliver depends on the pluralization (or not) of 'infrastructure', not 'services.'
'Infrastructures' can be pluralized just like 'peoples' - and in that case, the correct verb form would be 'deliver.' But as it is now, it should be 'delivers.'
posted by MiraK at 12:58 PM on August 18, 2019 [2 favorites]
'Infrastructures' can be pluralized just like 'peoples' - and in that case, the correct verb form would be 'deliver.' But as it is now, it should be 'delivers.'
posted by MiraK at 12:58 PM on August 18, 2019 [2 favorites]
If your speaker is not a USian, "deliver" with a mass noun might be their standard usage.
posted by inexorably_forward at 3:09 PM on August 18, 2019
posted by inexorably_forward at 3:09 PM on August 18, 2019
Is the speaker from somewhere other than America? Is "infrastructure" a team or group providing a service? If so, then "the services that Infrastructure deliver" is perfectly grammatical in non-American English.
That collective noun usage certainly threw me the first few times I encountered it. "The team have advanced to the finals" vs "the team has advanced to the finals," or "Sony have announced their new game console" vs "Sony has announced its new game console."
If the person is American and the audience is American, or if the speaker/audience isn't American and "infrastructure" isn't a reference to a team but rather the concept of infrastructure in general, then "the services that infrastructure deliver haven't changed" is grammatically incorrect.
posted by erst at 3:43 PM on August 18, 2019 [1 favorite]
That collective noun usage certainly threw me the first few times I encountered it. "The team have advanced to the finals" vs "the team has advanced to the finals," or "Sony have announced their new game console" vs "Sony has announced its new game console."
If the person is American and the audience is American, or if the speaker/audience isn't American and "infrastructure" isn't a reference to a team but rather the concept of infrastructure in general, then "the services that infrastructure deliver haven't changed" is grammatically incorrect.
posted by erst at 3:43 PM on August 18, 2019 [1 favorite]
I’m also a copy editor. It absolutely matters whether this is US or UK English. The rules for mass nouns are different. You are correct for US English. For UK English, you need a UK copy editor.
posted by FencingGal at 5:14 PM on August 18, 2019
posted by FencingGal at 5:14 PM on August 18, 2019
Best answer: You are completely correct: “infrastructures deliver,” or “infrastructure delivers,” but never, “infrastructure deliver.”
If the writer requires persuasion, it may be useful to avoid characterizing the correction as a matter of judgement; instead, first, refer to standard references, e.g.,
I am the editor (and quondam copyeditor) for a global media company. I commend your good judgement, and I wish you good luck in your work.
posted by burbridge at 5:42 PM on August 18, 2019 [2 favorites]
If the writer requires persuasion, it may be useful to avoid characterizing the correction as a matter of judgement; instead, first, refer to standard references, e.g.,
“Infrastructure” is a singular noun, and it takes a singular verb, and not only for speakers of American English, per the Merriam-Webster Unabridged; but also for speakers of Commonwealth dialects (“non-American English”) per the Oxford English Dictionary. Use of “infrastructure” as a plural, in any theater of English, would be a solecism.Then, it may be useful to offer an explanation which focuses on the goal of effective communication, e.g.,
Using it as a plural will distract readers, since it appears to be introducing a novel usage, and it may confuse them, since, as a new coinage, it would be unfamiliar, too.By the way, I do not recommend using “[sic],” except in scholarly publications, since it raises more questions than it answers—and it undermines the confidence of the reader in the author. Not really one of the goals of an editor in most communications.
I am the editor (and quondam copyeditor) for a global media company. I commend your good judgement, and I wish you good luck in your work.
posted by burbridge at 5:42 PM on August 18, 2019 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks. I too try to edit minimally yet effectively, so that a sentence will stand correct close to its original form, instead of changing wording. Yes to sparing [sic]s. The fellow in question is American but may have spent some time abroad.
posted by noelpratt2nd at 6:02 PM on August 18, 2019
posted by noelpratt2nd at 6:02 PM on August 18, 2019
Subeditor in Irish/UK English here. 'Infrastructure', in all practicality, is a singular noun to represent a collective concept. There is no grey area about this; "infrastructure are" is wrong.
The comment above about 'bread' is interesting, but it's not really a countable/uncountable nouns thing - there is 'bread', which is all bread in general, the concept of bread; then there are individual types of bread, where 'types of bread' becomes 'breads' in plural. A decidedly philosophical distinction, so the context determines which one to use.
posted by macdara at 1:55 AM on August 21, 2019
The comment above about 'bread' is interesting, but it's not really a countable/uncountable nouns thing - there is 'bread', which is all bread in general, the concept of bread; then there are individual types of bread, where 'types of bread' becomes 'breads' in plural. A decidedly philosophical distinction, so the context determines which one to use.
posted by macdara at 1:55 AM on August 21, 2019
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posted by Alensin at 12:32 PM on August 18, 2019 [3 favorites]