Should I cut my losses here?
June 12, 2023 4:10 AM Subscribe
I started dating an amazing person, but she probably never got over her last relationship. If i try to look at things objectively, I am afraid that pursuing this further is not the the greatest idea for a few reasons. Yet, that's exactly what I want to do. Details inside.
About a year ago, I (Male, 44) ended a serious long term and long-distance relationship that had a profound impact on me. I have been in therapy for over two years to help me cope with the end of that relationship and the aftermath of its breakup.
[Story of that breakup can be found here].
During the past year, I reconnected with an old friend (Female, same age), and we bonded over the shared traumas of our previous relationships. In 2020, she experienced a devastating breakup, when her boyfriend of five years abruptly kicked her out of their place a day before the first lockdown (!) without any explanation, ghosting her ever since. She later found out he had been involved with another woman.
A bit of background: when I first met her twelve years ago, I had a pretty huge crush on her. We met at work and became friends pretty fast, and I liked her a lot, physically and as a person. Since she was in a LD relationship at the time, I managed to channel the energy of that crush into a pretty major life upheaval, changing line of work and re-starting my career, and also breaking free of some old unhealthy habits. Once her LDR ended, I was in a relationship myself, so somehow for me she became “the one that never was”. Over time, the initial crush subsided, but we stayed in touch, meeting every couple of years for life updates.
But last summer something changed in this pattern, and we started to see each other more often after our usual yearly life update.
At first, we were just seeing each other to discuss how tough it was to keep things together, but after a while we started talking about other things in our life, and even started doing some scheduled activities together.
Towards the beginning of this year it felt like things had started to change between us, and I realized I was starting to have feelings for her - she was still the same incredibly funny, brave, enthusiastic, independent and generous person I knew, and I realized I wanted to spend more time with her as weeks passed. We also spent tons of time together just talking - even 8+ hours sometimes, simply losing track of time while chatting about life. It was the first time in years I felt something like that, and it was pretty much a surprise since I felt like I was still dealing with the end of my previous LTR.
In March we acknowledged that we were both starting to feel something for each other, but at first she was extremely hesitant to act on this, mostly because of her history, but also because she had built an identity of an extremely independent person - a tough professional who doesn’t really need anyone - and finally, because we are also fairly different on the surface: I am gentle left-brained tech guy that needs structure, while she is a strong-willed right-brained person working with people and emotions that prioritizes freedom.
After a few weeks we decided to give dating a go, trying to see where this thing would take us. We discovered that we have fantastic physical chemistry, and we also had a few amazing dates. However, there were instances when we struggled to click - it was like we needed a bit of time to find our rhythm, and sometimes we just didn’t have the time or energy to do so. Since I am fairly busy, and she is extremely busy, we were managing to see each other a couple of times a week - and sometimes both of us were a bit drained by the end of the week.
However, during the last weeks I started to feel like we weren’t really on the same page: up to a certain point, it looked like we were progressing, feeling closer and more secure in the relationship, but then things kind of stalled. For instance, while we got physical (and it was awesome), she never chose to spend the night at my place, or invited me to do so at her’s. I invited her to a friend's wedding - where very few people would know us - to be my +1, and she refused. Also, she started to avoid fully committing to specific days and activities until the last minute, which made it difficult for a planner like me to be at ease, and made me feel like not much of a priority for her. I was also checking on her well-being (how things were going, how she handled some difficult things at work) much more than she was doing so on me - especially considering I am going through a hard time caused by some family health issues which are unrelated to this story, this didn’t make me feel great.
It felt like I was trying to move things forward - and honestly I just wanted to spend more time with her - and this scared her, so she was pushing me away.
Lately, this became more evident, leading up to this week: during the week she was very distant and she canceled some things we had planned at the last minute. Finally, she told me she was coming over saturday evening, and after dinner we went for a walk and told me why she had been so distant this week: during the week she discovered her ex had quit his coaching position at a local sport club, which got her thinking he probably stepped down because he was about to start a family - something he never wanted to do with her - and this brought back all the pain and the heartbreak of the breakup.
She was emotional while telling me this. While she has always been adamant that she doesn’t have feelings towards her ex, but admitted that she never healed from that breakup, from the way he was talking about him, I started to have doubts about this: she told me why it had to be him that chose to step down because he was so beloved in that circle, and what a great work he did through the years - although not all of it was positive, since she also referred to him as a manipulative narcissist multiple times.
She asked me how I felt about this, and I told her I was sad she was going through this, which seemed to piss her off a bit. At a certain point I told her I was sad because I cared about her, but she never reciprocated. She also told me that she felt like something had broken between us - and then quickly doubled down by mentioning that being so different would have made for something too hard anyway.
I was a bit taken aback by how sudden this all was, since this was the same person that no longer than a couple of weeks ago was telling me that she loved what we were discovering together.
Once we finished our walk and got back to my place, she told me that she doesn’t feel like one can be both in a relationship and still being stuck so strongly in the past, and that spending so much time together - which was probably as much time as we were spending when we were just friends in previous months - got her very anxious and was almost giving her panic attacks. (I’ll just mention it here: she is in therapy and has been for years).
At the end of all of this, she asked me where we should go from here, and that what she meant was that we needed to slow way down.
I told her I would need some time to digest it, and also that I would have no problem waiting for her, if we both had the same endgame in mind, which is to be in a committed relationship. She avoided answering this directly.
Rationally, I know I should probably trust her when she says that she can't live in the present while she is stuck in the past, and that I should probably disentangle while we still have a chance to salvage our friendship. I also think that she might still have some very complicated feelings for her ex that haven’t been resolved. And things in this stage should probably feel way easier than they do - however, this just might be what seeing someone when you’re over 40 looks like.
The rational side tells me I deserve to be with someone that has the same level of enthusiasm that I have, and wants to spend as much time with me as I do with her, and that looks at our differences as something we can grow from, instead of looking at them like a hindrance.
And finally, I also fear she decided to give us a shot cause she saw me as someone who would never hurt her, which is a pattern she has mentioned on before - according to her, her sister is married to a guy whose main quality is that he’ll never leave her cause he will never find anyone on the same level.
But my emotions just won’t agree with this: I really want to give this a shot (if there is a shot to be taken) because I think we could be great together, and I think the upside is worth the risk of getting really hurt.
Yet, by pursuing this, I am afraid of falling into my familiar role of neglecting my own needs for the sake of a relationship, only to later resent feeling neglected. (Yes, it's a pattern I aim to break).
All in all, I am very confused.
And I will talk it through with my therapist ASAP.
But I also look to you, Metafilter, and ask: is my rational side correct in its assessment of this situation? Is there a middle ground I am failing to see?
About a year ago, I (Male, 44) ended a serious long term and long-distance relationship that had a profound impact on me. I have been in therapy for over two years to help me cope with the end of that relationship and the aftermath of its breakup.
[Story of that breakup can be found here].
During the past year, I reconnected with an old friend (Female, same age), and we bonded over the shared traumas of our previous relationships. In 2020, she experienced a devastating breakup, when her boyfriend of five years abruptly kicked her out of their place a day before the first lockdown (!) without any explanation, ghosting her ever since. She later found out he had been involved with another woman.
A bit of background: when I first met her twelve years ago, I had a pretty huge crush on her. We met at work and became friends pretty fast, and I liked her a lot, physically and as a person. Since she was in a LD relationship at the time, I managed to channel the energy of that crush into a pretty major life upheaval, changing line of work and re-starting my career, and also breaking free of some old unhealthy habits. Once her LDR ended, I was in a relationship myself, so somehow for me she became “the one that never was”. Over time, the initial crush subsided, but we stayed in touch, meeting every couple of years for life updates.
But last summer something changed in this pattern, and we started to see each other more often after our usual yearly life update.
At first, we were just seeing each other to discuss how tough it was to keep things together, but after a while we started talking about other things in our life, and even started doing some scheduled activities together.
Towards the beginning of this year it felt like things had started to change between us, and I realized I was starting to have feelings for her - she was still the same incredibly funny, brave, enthusiastic, independent and generous person I knew, and I realized I wanted to spend more time with her as weeks passed. We also spent tons of time together just talking - even 8+ hours sometimes, simply losing track of time while chatting about life. It was the first time in years I felt something like that, and it was pretty much a surprise since I felt like I was still dealing with the end of my previous LTR.
In March we acknowledged that we were both starting to feel something for each other, but at first she was extremely hesitant to act on this, mostly because of her history, but also because she had built an identity of an extremely independent person - a tough professional who doesn’t really need anyone - and finally, because we are also fairly different on the surface: I am gentle left-brained tech guy that needs structure, while she is a strong-willed right-brained person working with people and emotions that prioritizes freedom.
After a few weeks we decided to give dating a go, trying to see where this thing would take us. We discovered that we have fantastic physical chemistry, and we also had a few amazing dates. However, there were instances when we struggled to click - it was like we needed a bit of time to find our rhythm, and sometimes we just didn’t have the time or energy to do so. Since I am fairly busy, and she is extremely busy, we were managing to see each other a couple of times a week - and sometimes both of us were a bit drained by the end of the week.
However, during the last weeks I started to feel like we weren’t really on the same page: up to a certain point, it looked like we were progressing, feeling closer and more secure in the relationship, but then things kind of stalled. For instance, while we got physical (and it was awesome), she never chose to spend the night at my place, or invited me to do so at her’s. I invited her to a friend's wedding - where very few people would know us - to be my +1, and she refused. Also, she started to avoid fully committing to specific days and activities until the last minute, which made it difficult for a planner like me to be at ease, and made me feel like not much of a priority for her. I was also checking on her well-being (how things were going, how she handled some difficult things at work) much more than she was doing so on me - especially considering I am going through a hard time caused by some family health issues which are unrelated to this story, this didn’t make me feel great.
It felt like I was trying to move things forward - and honestly I just wanted to spend more time with her - and this scared her, so she was pushing me away.
Lately, this became more evident, leading up to this week: during the week she was very distant and she canceled some things we had planned at the last minute. Finally, she told me she was coming over saturday evening, and after dinner we went for a walk and told me why she had been so distant this week: during the week she discovered her ex had quit his coaching position at a local sport club, which got her thinking he probably stepped down because he was about to start a family - something he never wanted to do with her - and this brought back all the pain and the heartbreak of the breakup.
She was emotional while telling me this. While she has always been adamant that she doesn’t have feelings towards her ex, but admitted that she never healed from that breakup, from the way he was talking about him, I started to have doubts about this: she told me why it had to be him that chose to step down because he was so beloved in that circle, and what a great work he did through the years - although not all of it was positive, since she also referred to him as a manipulative narcissist multiple times.
She asked me how I felt about this, and I told her I was sad she was going through this, which seemed to piss her off a bit. At a certain point I told her I was sad because I cared about her, but she never reciprocated. She also told me that she felt like something had broken between us - and then quickly doubled down by mentioning that being so different would have made for something too hard anyway.
I was a bit taken aback by how sudden this all was, since this was the same person that no longer than a couple of weeks ago was telling me that she loved what we were discovering together.
Once we finished our walk and got back to my place, she told me that she doesn’t feel like one can be both in a relationship and still being stuck so strongly in the past, and that spending so much time together - which was probably as much time as we were spending when we were just friends in previous months - got her very anxious and was almost giving her panic attacks. (I’ll just mention it here: she is in therapy and has been for years).
At the end of all of this, she asked me where we should go from here, and that what she meant was that we needed to slow way down.
I told her I would need some time to digest it, and also that I would have no problem waiting for her, if we both had the same endgame in mind, which is to be in a committed relationship. She avoided answering this directly.
Rationally, I know I should probably trust her when she says that she can't live in the present while she is stuck in the past, and that I should probably disentangle while we still have a chance to salvage our friendship. I also think that she might still have some very complicated feelings for her ex that haven’t been resolved. And things in this stage should probably feel way easier than they do - however, this just might be what seeing someone when you’re over 40 looks like.
The rational side tells me I deserve to be with someone that has the same level of enthusiasm that I have, and wants to spend as much time with me as I do with her, and that looks at our differences as something we can grow from, instead of looking at them like a hindrance.
And finally, I also fear she decided to give us a shot cause she saw me as someone who would never hurt her, which is a pattern she has mentioned on before - according to her, her sister is married to a guy whose main quality is that he’ll never leave her cause he will never find anyone on the same level.
But my emotions just won’t agree with this: I really want to give this a shot (if there is a shot to be taken) because I think we could be great together, and I think the upside is worth the risk of getting really hurt.
Yet, by pursuing this, I am afraid of falling into my familiar role of neglecting my own needs for the sake of a relationship, only to later resent feeling neglected. (Yes, it's a pattern I aim to break).
All in all, I am very confused.
And I will talk it through with my therapist ASAP.
But I also look to you, Metafilter, and ask: is my rational side correct in its assessment of this situation? Is there a middle ground I am failing to see?
I am so sorry for your turmoil.
I anticipate you’re going to get a lot of advice on how to stay in this limbo space, but this jumped out for me: I told her I would need some time to digest it, and also that I would have no problem waiting for her, if we both had the same endgame in mind, which is to be in a committed relationship. She avoided answering this directly.
You already know what you want from this person, and you already know what you want for yourself; for your own life.
I’ve stepped away from beginning relationships because I realized that I - me, personally and individually- could never feel that “middle ground” with someone. Other people might be able to, but I couldn’t. I knew I would always secretly or not so secretly be waiting for them to ‘work through their issue’ and eventually decide on ME as the person they wanted to build a life with.
It’s ok to acknowledge that you cannot just be friends with someone. If you are already in this much turmoil at the *beginning* of this re-connecting, I’d recommend stepping away for a year or two. The issues you described with her history are large, and will take time to unravel, if she even chooses to do so. In the meantime, keep dating, and set a mental note to check back in with her in two years.
You got to feel that spark again, and I think that is fantastic. Look for someone who wants to share with you the same devotion and passion.
posted by Silvery Fish at 5:03 AM on June 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
I anticipate you’re going to get a lot of advice on how to stay in this limbo space, but this jumped out for me: I told her I would need some time to digest it, and also that I would have no problem waiting for her, if we both had the same endgame in mind, which is to be in a committed relationship. She avoided answering this directly.
You already know what you want from this person, and you already know what you want for yourself; for your own life.
I’ve stepped away from beginning relationships because I realized that I - me, personally and individually- could never feel that “middle ground” with someone. Other people might be able to, but I couldn’t. I knew I would always secretly or not so secretly be waiting for them to ‘work through their issue’ and eventually decide on ME as the person they wanted to build a life with.
It’s ok to acknowledge that you cannot just be friends with someone. If you are already in this much turmoil at the *beginning* of this re-connecting, I’d recommend stepping away for a year or two. The issues you described with her history are large, and will take time to unravel, if she even chooses to do so. In the meantime, keep dating, and set a mental note to check back in with her in two years.
You got to feel that spark again, and I think that is fantastic. Look for someone who wants to share with you the same devotion and passion.
posted by Silvery Fish at 5:03 AM on June 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
It sounds like she wants (or wanted) someone who she's comfortable enough with and makes her feel desirable, but she doesn't really want you as a person right now. That sounds mean, but she's not sleeping over at your place after sex, she doesn't want to go with you to public events, and she's not prioritizing your time together.
You may think that you would be great together, but right now she doesn't and it takes two.
posted by kingdead at 5:08 AM on June 12, 2023 [31 favorites]
You may think that you would be great together, but right now she doesn't and it takes two.
posted by kingdead at 5:08 AM on June 12, 2023 [31 favorites]
Listen to your rational side. This isn't someone to pursue a relationship with, because you deserve an enthusiastic yes.
It's completely okay to grieve that loss - in therapy, do a closure ritual on your own, talk to other friends (not her), go away camping for a weekend to changes spaces - whatever works for you. Be open to other people who will really want to be in a relationship with you.
If something changes for her, she'll let you know. But this was her answer:
spending so much time together...got her very anxious and was almost giving her panic attacks.
&
...if we both had the same endgame in mind, which is to be in a committed relationship. She avoided answering this directly.
Those panic attacks are real. Her lack of commitment to a relationship is real. I'm sorry because that's really hard but I think that really is where she's at.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:27 AM on June 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
It's completely okay to grieve that loss - in therapy, do a closure ritual on your own, talk to other friends (not her), go away camping for a weekend to changes spaces - whatever works for you. Be open to other people who will really want to be in a relationship with you.
If something changes for her, she'll let you know. But this was her answer:
spending so much time together...got her very anxious and was almost giving her panic attacks.
&
...if we both had the same endgame in mind, which is to be in a committed relationship. She avoided answering this directly.
Those panic attacks are real. Her lack of commitment to a relationship is real. I'm sorry because that's really hard but I think that really is where she's at.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:27 AM on June 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
As I get older ive learned that one of the most important ways to interact with other humans is to simple belive what they tell you. All the things people do, the way they act, dress, treat you and others, talk about their family.... It's all part of them telling you who they are and what they want. I'm sorry, but objectively this person is telling you she doesn't want to be with you. Believe her. Otherwise you'll keep struggling and getting deeper and the breakup will be even harder later.
posted by chasles at 5:40 AM on June 12, 2023 [26 favorites]
posted by chasles at 5:40 AM on June 12, 2023 [26 favorites]
She's just not that into you. She's saying it with an incredible amount of emotional and literal circumlocution ... but she's saying it loud and clear nonetheless. Move on, and don't be surprised when she surfaces with a regular-way boyfriend in a few months.
posted by MattD at 6:52 AM on June 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by MattD at 6:52 AM on June 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
"I told her I would need some time to digest it, and also that I would have no problem waiting for her, if we both had the same endgame in mind, which is to be in a committed relationship. She avoided answering this directly."
This jumped out at me. You asked her for a commitment, and she declined to make it.
She's not in a place where she can be with you. I would back off, as you likely already have your answer, and backing off is the healthiest thing you can do for yourself. I'm sorry.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:29 AM on June 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
This jumped out at me. You asked her for a commitment, and she declined to make it.
She's not in a place where she can be with you. I would back off, as you likely already have your answer, and backing off is the healthiest thing you can do for yourself. I'm sorry.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:29 AM on June 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
Yet, by pursuing this, I am afraid of falling into my familiar role of neglecting my own needs for the sake of a relationship, only to later resent feeling neglected. (Yes, it's a pattern I aim to break).
Your fear is well-justified, and is sending you a good message. You can start breaking that harmful pattern now, by not hanging around in the face of a dozen different "soft nos" from her.
If you keep pushing (which also includes pretending it's fine to "be friends" while you're actually waiting and hoping and expecting her to change), it's a recipe for this exact kind of resentment, and the sort of thing that leads to the toxic narrative of "the friend zone", etc.
posted by theatro at 7:43 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Your fear is well-justified, and is sending you a good message. You can start breaking that harmful pattern now, by not hanging around in the face of a dozen different "soft nos" from her.
If you keep pushing (which also includes pretending it's fine to "be friends" while you're actually waiting and hoping and expecting her to change), it's a recipe for this exact kind of resentment, and the sort of thing that leads to the toxic narrative of "the friend zone", etc.
posted by theatro at 7:43 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
The mefi rule of thumb is that if you need to write an Ask about a relationship that is more paragraphs long than months you've been together, most likely this relationship is not the one.
And things in this stage should probably feel way easier than they do - however, this just might be what seeing someone when you’re over 40 looks like.
Nope, as a person seeing someone over 40 can confirm this is not inevitable. It is entirely possible to have a relationship in your 40s where both people are on the same page enthusiasm-wise and proceeding without lots of doubt and hangups, and where both people can be direct and not trying to soft-pedal the harder truths about our lives.
At the end of all of this, she asked me where we should go from here, and that what she meant was that we needed to slow way down.
This was the breakup, friend. "where we should go" just meant, "are you never speaking to me again or what?" and "slow way down" meant: stop.
Sorry...it would have been kinder for her to be more direct, but I am sure she did not mean it to be unkind.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:48 AM on June 12, 2023 [19 favorites]
And things in this stage should probably feel way easier than they do - however, this just might be what seeing someone when you’re over 40 looks like.
Nope, as a person seeing someone over 40 can confirm this is not inevitable. It is entirely possible to have a relationship in your 40s where both people are on the same page enthusiasm-wise and proceeding without lots of doubt and hangups, and where both people can be direct and not trying to soft-pedal the harder truths about our lives.
At the end of all of this, she asked me where we should go from here, and that what she meant was that we needed to slow way down.
This was the breakup, friend. "where we should go" just meant, "are you never speaking to me again or what?" and "slow way down" meant: stop.
Sorry...it would have been kinder for her to be more direct, but I am sure she did not mean it to be unkind.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:48 AM on June 12, 2023 [19 favorites]
I have been through something similar twice:
Once, in hindsight I realized the person really cared for me but realized she was forcing the romantic side of the relationship a little bit after it started spontaneously. She couldn't find the words to tell me that she gave it a go but was not THAT into me that way and so needing space to get over her ex was the kindest way she could think of to let me go.
The other time, it was progressing too fast - not because I was pursuing things aggressively, but because doing relationship-y things when you've been hurt before triggers a lot of potentially unresolved feelings even if they seem benign. It's one thing to talk through your trauma - it is a whole other thing to be thrown into situations where you are deepening trust and a relationship with someone else. It can be overwhelming, even if for you it's a continuation of where your deep friendship was already going.
In both scenarios, the answer was the same - the person wasn't looking for what I was at that moment. In both scenarios, I was given the choice of continuing to be in regular contact with what was a previously good friend - but I realized I would only be doing so on the hopes that what we had started would re-start. And I realized if the person put up a boundary - me pretending to be okay with it while secretly hoping to cross back over it was not real friendship. I just couldn't offer them a no-strings-attached friendship - at least not for a while.
And so in both cases, though I cared for the person deeply - I had to let them go. I didn't see a way where we would be deepening our friendship without thinking "I wonder if we are getting back together."
I get those kind of vibes reading this from you - the middle ground you are looking for sounds like a way for you not to lose "the one" who already got away once, and I think she's pretty clearly needing you to not pursue her romantically right now as it's giving her near panic attacks (not your fault - but it is happening nonetheless.) You're in very different places right now that will likely be unhealthy for both of you.
posted by openhearted at 7:55 AM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Once, in hindsight I realized the person really cared for me but realized she was forcing the romantic side of the relationship a little bit after it started spontaneously. She couldn't find the words to tell me that she gave it a go but was not THAT into me that way and so needing space to get over her ex was the kindest way she could think of to let me go.
The other time, it was progressing too fast - not because I was pursuing things aggressively, but because doing relationship-y things when you've been hurt before triggers a lot of potentially unresolved feelings even if they seem benign. It's one thing to talk through your trauma - it is a whole other thing to be thrown into situations where you are deepening trust and a relationship with someone else. It can be overwhelming, even if for you it's a continuation of where your deep friendship was already going.
In both scenarios, the answer was the same - the person wasn't looking for what I was at that moment. In both scenarios, I was given the choice of continuing to be in regular contact with what was a previously good friend - but I realized I would only be doing so on the hopes that what we had started would re-start. And I realized if the person put up a boundary - me pretending to be okay with it while secretly hoping to cross back over it was not real friendship. I just couldn't offer them a no-strings-attached friendship - at least not for a while.
And so in both cases, though I cared for the person deeply - I had to let them go. I didn't see a way where we would be deepening our friendship without thinking "I wonder if we are getting back together."
I get those kind of vibes reading this from you - the middle ground you are looking for sounds like a way for you not to lose "the one" who already got away once, and I think she's pretty clearly needing you to not pursue her romantically right now as it's giving her near panic attacks (not your fault - but it is happening nonetheless.) You're in very different places right now that will likely be unhealthy for both of you.
posted by openhearted at 7:55 AM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
This isn’t “what seeing someone over 40” is like; it’s what seeing someone who has unresolved emotional challenges is like and they’ve had time to stew. I get being stuck on an ex and especially when she’s almost past the time she can have bio children. BUT he dumped her like a jerk 3 years ago and she’s choosing to hang on…. and treat you in a way I don’t consider to be very kind or respectful. We can have our issues but we shouldn’t drag others through the mud. I know you like her so much and you’ve had these feelings for a long time. However, the romanticized version of her is very different from the real one. I’m sorry!! I agree it’s best to walk away for now. Perhaps with more time and distance, she’ll be open to date you. But you can be the best person ever and the sex amazing but it doesn’t mean it’s what she wants or needs, especially if she’s emotionally unwell. And at this point we can’t just say the break up is cause for that, it’s probably something deeper. Again, I’m sorry this was so hopeful then so incredibly disappointing! It sounds like you both had good intentions so I hope you two cans be friends again one day if you so wish.
posted by smorgasbord at 8:30 AM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by smorgasbord at 8:30 AM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm sorry. She's just not that into you. The reasons don't matter (whether it's her ex, or other factors). She may never be ready for a relationship with you. You need to cut your losses and work on moving on. Please don't wait for her to be ready. If sometime in the future, you're both at the same place romantically, then enjoy that, but don't stop your life in the meanwhile. Go on some other dates and meet other people.
posted by hydra77 at 8:47 AM on June 12, 2023
posted by hydra77 at 8:47 AM on June 12, 2023
It's time to recognize this opportunity is now closed. I think this was a great relationship...for you to get your legs under you and start to think really hard about what you want and don't want. That's a gift, you can feel lots of nice feelings and gratitude toward her for it, but you have to let her be who she is and where she is. And who/where she is right now is not a match for your goals and values.
It sucks, but this is why we date before marriage. It is a process of elimination. at least for people with a goal of a long-term probably monogamous relationship. It is more normal for a potential pairing to fizzle out, or hit a game-ending mis-match of goals and values, than it is for it to be endgame.
We are humans and most of us loathe change and have a hard time processing disappointment, but you already chose this as a change-averse path in the first place (for the most part, if you and someone can't spark before you embark on a long friendship, the chances of turning that barge around are not impossible, of course, but it's a very tricky maneuver) and you can't just keep clinging to this to avoid any further change.
Do NOT start framing this like she lied to you or led you astray, shut that patriarchal business down now and stop dating until you can internalize that. If she said she enjoyed what was going on at first then let's allow that to be nothing more or less than her truth at that time (even if she really only wanted it to be true and was straining for it, which is a thing people do), and now she recognizes it's not going to work for her or she doesn't like it now or something happened to change how she felt or she doesn't like you anymore or she's realized she wants to move to Saskatchewan and take up moose-grooming, that is 100% her prerogative and you take her at her word. You can be sad and disappointed and even hurt, if you must, that she isn't going to give you what you want, but you do not get entitlement. The process worked exactly as it was supposed to.
Dating actual grown adults with life experience and trauma and scars and deep wisdom IS harder than dating people who cannot possibly have extensive romantic relationship experience, yeah. And a patriarchal society means that a lot of young women are more likely to go along with what men want at the expense of their own well-being. Which means when they get older some of them are absolutely not going to make that mistake again and they will draw a line when they feel they have compromised too much or would have to in order to accommodate the other person.
You have the opportunity to learn some really important lessons here: friendships are not there for you to cold-store future relationships, dating is a process of elimination, trauma-bonding is a shitty dating technique*, and yes you are dating among people who largely have weathered some real hard shit (some of which will be directly relationship-related but there will be other things too) and may still have a good bit of their attention diverted to their own life functions (career, kids, parents and other family members, real estate and other financial concerns). You will still experience limerence and fizzy flutters and joyful pants feelings, but those things don't fix problems and they can't override the gaps created by life circumstances and experiences and external factors.
It really sucks but you have the choice to let this make you better and wiser. Be happy that you enjoyed it while it was good and aren't dragging it along beyond that point. Know that you're going to have to get better at having an open but mindful heart, which is not something most of us have innately and so it does take some work.
*I think this is a much bigger factor in the arc of this situation than either of you are crediting. Talking about exes extensively is a way of still being with them and still evoking the feelings of being with them; it's something you of course have to cover to some extent in a new relationship but it should be primarily about how you behaved in those previous relationships and what your values are and just a little bit - in the first stages - about the traumas you might still be processing. But building a relationship based on the broken frame of a previous one gives you exactly the structural integrity you can expect from that kind of workmanship. It turns you both into proxies. Too much ex-talk is a red flag, you now know, both as something you should not do yourself and something you should be wary of in others. You should also be wary of encouraging someone else to do this, as that is straight out of the Manipulators' Handbook to deliberately invite someone to trauma-bond with you and ride on the coattails of a previous idealized relationship instead of going through the process-of-elimination steps of a healthy relationship. I don't think you were doing it on purpose this time, but don't convince yourself it's a good idea again.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:08 AM on June 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
It sucks, but this is why we date before marriage. It is a process of elimination. at least for people with a goal of a long-term probably monogamous relationship. It is more normal for a potential pairing to fizzle out, or hit a game-ending mis-match of goals and values, than it is for it to be endgame.
We are humans and most of us loathe change and have a hard time processing disappointment, but you already chose this as a change-averse path in the first place (for the most part, if you and someone can't spark before you embark on a long friendship, the chances of turning that barge around are not impossible, of course, but it's a very tricky maneuver) and you can't just keep clinging to this to avoid any further change.
Do NOT start framing this like she lied to you or led you astray, shut that patriarchal business down now and stop dating until you can internalize that. If she said she enjoyed what was going on at first then let's allow that to be nothing more or less than her truth at that time (even if she really only wanted it to be true and was straining for it, which is a thing people do), and now she recognizes it's not going to work for her or she doesn't like it now or something happened to change how she felt or she doesn't like you anymore or she's realized she wants to move to Saskatchewan and take up moose-grooming, that is 100% her prerogative and you take her at her word. You can be sad and disappointed and even hurt, if you must, that she isn't going to give you what you want, but you do not get entitlement. The process worked exactly as it was supposed to.
Dating actual grown adults with life experience and trauma and scars and deep wisdom IS harder than dating people who cannot possibly have extensive romantic relationship experience, yeah. And a patriarchal society means that a lot of young women are more likely to go along with what men want at the expense of their own well-being. Which means when they get older some of them are absolutely not going to make that mistake again and they will draw a line when they feel they have compromised too much or would have to in order to accommodate the other person.
You have the opportunity to learn some really important lessons here: friendships are not there for you to cold-store future relationships, dating is a process of elimination, trauma-bonding is a shitty dating technique*, and yes you are dating among people who largely have weathered some real hard shit (some of which will be directly relationship-related but there will be other things too) and may still have a good bit of their attention diverted to their own life functions (career, kids, parents and other family members, real estate and other financial concerns). You will still experience limerence and fizzy flutters and joyful pants feelings, but those things don't fix problems and they can't override the gaps created by life circumstances and experiences and external factors.
It really sucks but you have the choice to let this make you better and wiser. Be happy that you enjoyed it while it was good and aren't dragging it along beyond that point. Know that you're going to have to get better at having an open but mindful heart, which is not something most of us have innately and so it does take some work.
*I think this is a much bigger factor in the arc of this situation than either of you are crediting. Talking about exes extensively is a way of still being with them and still evoking the feelings of being with them; it's something you of course have to cover to some extent in a new relationship but it should be primarily about how you behaved in those previous relationships and what your values are and just a little bit - in the first stages - about the traumas you might still be processing. But building a relationship based on the broken frame of a previous one gives you exactly the structural integrity you can expect from that kind of workmanship. It turns you both into proxies. Too much ex-talk is a red flag, you now know, both as something you should not do yourself and something you should be wary of in others. You should also be wary of encouraging someone else to do this, as that is straight out of the Manipulators' Handbook to deliberately invite someone to trauma-bond with you and ride on the coattails of a previous idealized relationship instead of going through the process-of-elimination steps of a healthy relationship. I don't think you were doing it on purpose this time, but don't convince yourself it's a good idea again.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:08 AM on June 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
She sounds avoidantly attached, which is to say she will never get into a relationship. There is no point in trying with someone who is always going to freak out and bail.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:08 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:08 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
She may or may not be into you, but she is certainly not into the current pace of your dating relationship or the end goal you see for it. She can't give you a clear "yes, I want the same end goal as you do even if I'm not sure right now of the right way to get there".
I can't tell you how to feel about your romantic life, but I'm your age, and I think that at this point in our lives, anything short of an an enthusiastic "yes to the big picture, even if we have to wrangle over the details" can and usually should be treated as a no. You deserve someone who's excited to be with you, and she deserves not to be having panic attacks over someone who's pushing for more, faster, than she's comfortable giving them.
I'm sorry. It would have been really nice if the one that got away had come back. It sounds like it made a lot of sense that you both decided to finally give this a real try. But what you've learned from that try is that you're still not in the same place where you can build a relationship on the feelings and chemistry. I think you should pull back from this now while the friendship can be saved.
posted by Stacey at 9:13 AM on June 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
I can't tell you how to feel about your romantic life, but I'm your age, and I think that at this point in our lives, anything short of an an enthusiastic "yes to the big picture, even if we have to wrangle over the details" can and usually should be treated as a no. You deserve someone who's excited to be with you, and she deserves not to be having panic attacks over someone who's pushing for more, faster, than she's comfortable giving them.
I'm sorry. It would have been really nice if the one that got away had come back. It sounds like it made a lot of sense that you both decided to finally give this a real try. But what you've learned from that try is that you're still not in the same place where you can build a relationship on the feelings and chemistry. I think you should pull back from this now while the friendship can be saved.
posted by Stacey at 9:13 AM on June 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
How is she "amazing"? Really, what do you mean by "amazing"? You're not amazed. What is "amazement" to you? She's not good for you at all. What everyone else said.
posted by JimN2TAW at 10:43 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by JimN2TAW at 10:43 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
-"he probably stepped down because he was about to start a family - something he never wanted to do with her - and this brought back all the pain and the heartbreak of the breakup."
-"She asked me how I felt about this, and I told her I was sad she was going through this, which seemed to piss her off a bit."
Is it possible that she still wishes to have children (however she & her S.O. would need to go about it), and was trying and failing to ask where you stand on that?
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:00 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
-"She asked me how I felt about this, and I told her I was sad she was going through this, which seemed to piss her off a bit."
Is it possible that she still wishes to have children (however she & her S.O. would need to go about it), and was trying and failing to ask where you stand on that?
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:00 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oh, hi, are you me in 2006? If you're reaching out into the future, I can tell you that yes, you should absolutely cut your losses, and that you'll end up getting very hurt if you don't.
I'd honestly think very carefully about even being friends with her right now. Try to be very honest with yourself: how are you going to feel a month from now when she shows up with a boyfriend? If the answer is anything other than "thrilled for her" I'd suggest pulling way back on this relationship in any form. If you'd be upset if your friend gets into a relationship with someone else, that person is not actually your friend.
posted by Ragged Richard at 11:01 AM on June 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'd honestly think very carefully about even being friends with her right now. Try to be very honest with yourself: how are you going to feel a month from now when she shows up with a boyfriend? If the answer is anything other than "thrilled for her" I'd suggest pulling way back on this relationship in any form. If you'd be upset if your friend gets into a relationship with someone else, that person is not actually your friend.
posted by Ragged Richard at 11:01 AM on June 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
You can only control yourself. My suggestion is to work on yourself and to pursue people who are excited about you and respect your time. If someone is "meh" about you, or half committed, move on.
posted by GiveUpNed at 1:03 PM on June 12, 2023
posted by GiveUpNed at 1:03 PM on June 12, 2023
If you talk about this to enough people I guarantee you'll find someone who said they waited for the other person and it worked out great and it IS possible and hang in there, etc.
I imagine that happens and it would be your favorite answer! But I think the overwhelming majority of times what happens is that the person in your position puts their life on hold and gets increasingly bitter that the other doesn't find their way to be in the relationship, and may even get together with someone else, or with the old boyfriend or whatever.
Meanwhile, you've neglected opportunities to move forward or even to pursue other relationships because you're still waiting for your friend to finally come around and get on board.
I'm not saying it's impossible, but I am saying it's going to cost you a lot, it probably won't work, and it means you will be stuck in between-land. Which is not a good place.
Grieve for this relationship as much as you want, wish your friend well (as much as you are able to) and move on forward into the amazingness of the rest of your life.
posted by jasper411 at 1:43 PM on June 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
I imagine that happens and it would be your favorite answer! But I think the overwhelming majority of times what happens is that the person in your position puts their life on hold and gets increasingly bitter that the other doesn't find their way to be in the relationship, and may even get together with someone else, or with the old boyfriend or whatever.
Meanwhile, you've neglected opportunities to move forward or even to pursue other relationships because you're still waiting for your friend to finally come around and get on board.
I'm not saying it's impossible, but I am saying it's going to cost you a lot, it probably won't work, and it means you will be stuck in between-land. Which is not a good place.
Grieve for this relationship as much as you want, wish your friend well (as much as you are able to) and move on forward into the amazingness of the rest of your life.
posted by jasper411 at 1:43 PM on June 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Last year, I dated someone for a few months and it seemed like the relationship had a ton of long term potential, and he was into me too. However, he started to have some major stress in his life. He finally realized he wasn't over his ex (they had been broken up for a year after many years together), and he couldn't move forward til he processed that. The difference is, he respected me enough to go ahead and firmly end it. Ultimately, that was the kindest thing he could have done. I wish your person had done that for you.
Sometimes we focus a lot on the why when we want to be with someone: why don't they want to be with me, what's going on with them. I want to instead encourage you to look at facts, not reasons for the facts:
She doesn't make plans with you til the last minute.
She doesn't spend the night at your place when you'd like her to or invite you to stay at her place.
She wouldn't be your date to a wedding.
She wasn't checking in on your during a hard time.
She cancelled plans at the last minute.
She told you she is not emotionally available to you and wants to spend less time with you.
It doesn't matter why all this is true. It seems like her behavior is consistent with her words: she is communicating directly and indirectly that she is not interested in a deeper, reciprocal relationship with you.
It also sounds like a lot of your affection for her is based on a long build up, and probably still some fantasies about what it could be long term rather than what it is now. Instead of thinking about how you feel about her, maybe it would be better to think about how this situation makes you feel. It doesn't sound like you feel loved or cared for.
I don't think you should step back, or wait for you. I think it would be healthier for both of you to end this and try to move forward separately. Good luck.
posted by bluedaisy at 3:25 PM on June 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
Sometimes we focus a lot on the why when we want to be with someone: why don't they want to be with me, what's going on with them. I want to instead encourage you to look at facts, not reasons for the facts:
She doesn't make plans with you til the last minute.
She doesn't spend the night at your place when you'd like her to or invite you to stay at her place.
She wouldn't be your date to a wedding.
She wasn't checking in on your during a hard time.
She cancelled plans at the last minute.
She told you she is not emotionally available to you and wants to spend less time with you.
It doesn't matter why all this is true. It seems like her behavior is consistent with her words: she is communicating directly and indirectly that she is not interested in a deeper, reciprocal relationship with you.
It also sounds like a lot of your affection for her is based on a long build up, and probably still some fantasies about what it could be long term rather than what it is now. Instead of thinking about how you feel about her, maybe it would be better to think about how this situation makes you feel. It doesn't sound like you feel loved or cared for.
I don't think you should step back, or wait for you. I think it would be healthier for both of you to end this and try to move forward separately. Good luck.
posted by bluedaisy at 3:25 PM on June 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
"I started dating an amazing person, but she probably never got over her last relationship" ^ended it.
It's very, very common for a person to be "over" their ex but still grieving the life that was or could have been. It's also very, very common for people to not realize what they've lost until a new relationship has them thinking about the future again. That's what rebounds are all about.
She may not be grieving at all, though. She was already pulling back from you before the ex's job change; she may have just been doing you the very, very common kindness of saying "it's not you, it's me." But ascribing that motive to her isn't any more rational than implying she doesn't know her own mind. Better overall to just take people at their word and deed.
Focusing on your own motivations and desires for your own life is healthier (and, to a rational mind, more efficient) than trying to read another person's mind and will them to be on the same page as you. Buried deep in your post are these words:
posted by headnsouth at 6:53 AM on June 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's very, very common for a person to be "over" their ex but still grieving the life that was or could have been. It's also very, very common for people to not realize what they've lost until a new relationship has them thinking about the future again. That's what rebounds are all about.
She may not be grieving at all, though. She was already pulling back from you before the ex's job change; she may have just been doing you the very, very common kindness of saying "it's not you, it's me." But ascribing that motive to her isn't any more rational than implying she doesn't know her own mind. Better overall to just take people at their word and deed.
Focusing on your own motivations and desires for your own life is healthier (and, to a rational mind, more efficient) than trying to read another person's mind and will them to be on the same page as you. Buried deep in your post are these words:
You can start breaking that pattern today by accepting that this person doesn't share your goals. No harm, no foul and you got each other through some heavy times. Most importantly for your life, it's reminded you of what you want and deserve, and of the personal demons that keep you from pursuing it. Self-awareness is a great outcome from a breakup.I deserve to be with someone that has the same level of enthusiasm that I have
[I deserve to be with someone that] wants to spend as much time with me as I do with her
[I deserve to be with someone that] looks at our differences as something we can grow from
I am afraid of falling into my familiar role of neglecting my own needs for the sake of a relationship, only to later resent feeling neglected
(Yes, it's a pattern I aim to break).
posted by headnsouth at 6:53 AM on June 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Also, I want to nth the folks who said that no, this is not necessarily how dating in your 40s goes. Yes, we are people with experiences, full lives, and old heartbreaks. And someone who is emotionally healthy might occasionally feel twinges and pangs about old relationships. That's very different than someone who is close to having panic attacks in hearing news about an ex.
And also, I didn't say this in my earlier comment about dating a guy who wasn't over his ex, but sometimes people go looking for trouble (I went through a phase where, when I was tired and feeling down, I'd go look at a certain ex's social media; it was emotionally unhealthy and made me feel worse and I did it anyway). Some people are stuck in the mud.
It sounds like you know she's stuck, emotionally. What I really want to encourage you to do is not get stuck emotionally, too. And the way to do that is by wrenching yourself out of this thing, and by trying to let go of the story that she's the one who got away. She's not the one who got away. That person, that relationship, is as much of a fantasy as her fantasy about her ex. She didn't get away; it's not that the timing wasn't right. It's that this isn't the relationship for you, and that story isn't serving you well either.
posted by bluedaisy at 9:53 AM on June 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
And also, I didn't say this in my earlier comment about dating a guy who wasn't over his ex, but sometimes people go looking for trouble (I went through a phase where, when I was tired and feeling down, I'd go look at a certain ex's social media; it was emotionally unhealthy and made me feel worse and I did it anyway). Some people are stuck in the mud.
It sounds like you know she's stuck, emotionally. What I really want to encourage you to do is not get stuck emotionally, too. And the way to do that is by wrenching yourself out of this thing, and by trying to let go of the story that she's the one who got away. She's not the one who got away. That person, that relationship, is as much of a fantasy as her fantasy about her ex. She didn't get away; it's not that the timing wasn't right. It's that this isn't the relationship for you, and that story isn't serving you well either.
posted by bluedaisy at 9:53 AM on June 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
« Older Cooling a three bedroom terraced house in the UK | Critical reviews/writing on Tears of the Kingdom Newer »
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
Be straight with her about how you feel. Re-iterate that you are willing to wait, even if the outcome is not a relationship. Say you are willing to be friends, and that this would be an amazing outcome, that you want her to know that you are here for her however she needs you, and that if things did turn into a relationship when she is ready, you would be a very happy person.
And then follow that up. Don't push. Take your time. If it IS worth something, then things will hopefully work out. And you having been a good friend during that time, supporting her, will only go towards whatever becomes of this. If it doesn't go that way, then you can feel justified in trying everything you could, being a good friend, and not losing her completely. But if it doesn't work out, then that's just life. There is nothing you could have done to change that.
Be present. Listen. And give her what she needs.
posted by 0bvious at 4:20 AM on June 12, 2023 [2 favorites]