Manager woes
June 14, 2022 12:20 PM Subscribe
My manager is driving me crazy by being so unreliable. I'm managing him more than he's managing me, and I have so much resentment about it. Please help me figure out how to resolve some of these issues without going off the deep end.
Some problems:
- says he'll do something, but doesn't follow through
- says he knows he didn't get to something this week, but he'll definitely do it next week, but still doesn't follow through (up to 4 weeks in a row, even for super-important stuff)
- apologizes for dropping the ball, and deeply analyzes the reasons why he dropped the ball, but never does anything about it
- forgets (maybe even doesn't realize that it's his job) to inform me of tons of important changes that happened while I was away on vacation for 1.5 weeks, then is surprised when I don't check in with him about stuff he forgot to tell me about
- makes a decision (that I should stop doing work for another manager) but doesn't inform anyone else about it, resulting in the other manager thinking that I personally dropped the ball when I stopped doing that work, which also substantially hurt my relationship with that manager
- makes a decision (that I should do a certain kind of work) and then gives it to someone else to do instead, and then it sits in limbo for a while with unclear ownership
- makes a decision (that I should highly prioritize a certain kind of work) and then is surprised when I put other things on the back burner to make room for the new priority
- frequently goes off-topic in 1:1s, even when there's an agenda, typically theorizing about "how things should be run in principle" while not solving the actual problem at hand
- asks me to project-manage stuff that he's responsible for, like literally asked me to "be the taskmaster" and remind him to make sure that he gets things done
To make matters worse, each person at our startup has a support buddy (who is also frequently their manager, yes I agree this setup has a strong conflict of interest)... and he's my support buddy. But really I need support for how to deal with him. I've asked to get a different support buddy, ideally on a different team, and gotten back "that's an interesting idea, we can look into that, but it probably needs to be vetted as it's not the standard" and that's been the status for several weeks now despite several followups from me.
I've started to bring my own agendas to our 1:1s and even team meetings and aggressively pulling us back on-topic when he gets distracted. Another person on our team said she now makes sure to get things in writing (in Slack, either via DMs or in a public channel) because she can't trust his word that things will get done. Not everyone on our team seems to have this problem though, or at least not to the same level.
At this point, I feel like I'm managing him more than he's managing me, and basically doing his job for him in addition to mine. If I pull it off, I'm making him look good while draining my own resources, and I RESENT THAT SO MUCH.
One thing I specifically would like help on is what to say when he tells me yet again, "I know you asked for this thing last week, I didn't get to it, I'm sorry, I'll get to it soon/tomorrow/next week, is that okay?" Because no, it's not okay anymore, and I have zero faith that his promise means anything. Plus this pattern of apologizing and not doing anything about it can be kinda triggering for me because a problematic ex of mine used to do that all the time.
Halp?!
Some problems:
- says he'll do something, but doesn't follow through
- says he knows he didn't get to something this week, but he'll definitely do it next week, but still doesn't follow through (up to 4 weeks in a row, even for super-important stuff)
- apologizes for dropping the ball, and deeply analyzes the reasons why he dropped the ball, but never does anything about it
- forgets (maybe even doesn't realize that it's his job) to inform me of tons of important changes that happened while I was away on vacation for 1.5 weeks, then is surprised when I don't check in with him about stuff he forgot to tell me about
- makes a decision (that I should stop doing work for another manager) but doesn't inform anyone else about it, resulting in the other manager thinking that I personally dropped the ball when I stopped doing that work, which also substantially hurt my relationship with that manager
- makes a decision (that I should do a certain kind of work) and then gives it to someone else to do instead, and then it sits in limbo for a while with unclear ownership
- makes a decision (that I should highly prioritize a certain kind of work) and then is surprised when I put other things on the back burner to make room for the new priority
- frequently goes off-topic in 1:1s, even when there's an agenda, typically theorizing about "how things should be run in principle" while not solving the actual problem at hand
- asks me to project-manage stuff that he's responsible for, like literally asked me to "be the taskmaster" and remind him to make sure that he gets things done
To make matters worse, each person at our startup has a support buddy (who is also frequently their manager, yes I agree this setup has a strong conflict of interest)... and he's my support buddy. But really I need support for how to deal with him. I've asked to get a different support buddy, ideally on a different team, and gotten back "that's an interesting idea, we can look into that, but it probably needs to be vetted as it's not the standard" and that's been the status for several weeks now despite several followups from me.
I've started to bring my own agendas to our 1:1s and even team meetings and aggressively pulling us back on-topic when he gets distracted. Another person on our team said she now makes sure to get things in writing (in Slack, either via DMs or in a public channel) because she can't trust his word that things will get done. Not everyone on our team seems to have this problem though, or at least not to the same level.
At this point, I feel like I'm managing him more than he's managing me, and basically doing his job for him in addition to mine. If I pull it off, I'm making him look good while draining my own resources, and I RESENT THAT SO MUCH.
One thing I specifically would like help on is what to say when he tells me yet again, "I know you asked for this thing last week, I didn't get to it, I'm sorry, I'll get to it soon/tomorrow/next week, is that okay?" Because no, it's not okay anymore, and I have zero faith that his promise means anything. Plus this pattern of apologizing and not doing anything about it can be kinda triggering for me because a problematic ex of mine used to do that all the time.
Halp?!
I have been there. Start looking for a new job. I am so happy now and I wished I looked sooner. I created meeting notes to hold my boss accountable. Which was a lot of work and did not work. You might want to look into resources on managing up. DOCUMENT everything.
posted by Boyd at 12:43 PM on June 14, 2022
posted by Boyd at 12:43 PM on June 14, 2022
I don't think you can fix a manager that's that broken. If the option exists to be reassigned to another manager consider that, and if it doesn't then start looking for a gig somewhere else.
posted by Nerd of the North at 12:49 PM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Nerd of the North at 12:49 PM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
I suspect it may not be socially acceptable to say, "No, it's NOT OKAY for you to have missed this 4 weeks in a row now?"
Can you go above his head to his manager? I presume not or you probably would have mentioned it, but if he's literally unable to do his job, it seems like something someone should know.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:54 PM on June 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
Can you go above his head to his manager? I presume not or you probably would have mentioned it, but if he's literally unable to do his job, it seems like something someone should know.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:54 PM on June 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
Two things: First, is it possible to do skip-level one-on-ones? Could you get some time with your boss's boss? That is to say, the person who's actually supposed to be managing your boss. I think these are helpful even in good managerial relationships, because you get to see how higher-ups think of you (and your boss), but the whole "that's been the status for several weeks now despite several followups" thing indicates to me that this company might have a problem that's bigger than one manager. Which leads me to...
Have you ever heard the saying that people don't quit bad jobs, they quit bad managers? Because it's true, and that has reframed how I think about work. I'd rather work at a job I don't care about for a good boss than at my dream job for a boss like yours. It seems improbable that this guy is going to change, so the question is, where do you go? The reason I asked about skip-levels first is so you can determine whether you go somewhere else in your current company, or elsewhere. If the skip-level goes badly too, just moving to a different team isn't going to solve the bad-boss problem. Then it's time to get out the resume.
posted by kevinbelt at 12:56 PM on June 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
Have you ever heard the saying that people don't quit bad jobs, they quit bad managers? Because it's true, and that has reframed how I think about work. I'd rather work at a job I don't care about for a good boss than at my dream job for a boss like yours. It seems improbable that this guy is going to change, so the question is, where do you go? The reason I asked about skip-levels first is so you can determine whether you go somewhere else in your current company, or elsewhere. If the skip-level goes badly too, just moving to a different team isn't going to solve the bad-boss problem. Then it's time to get out the resume.
posted by kevinbelt at 12:56 PM on June 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: I'm aware of the option to look for a new job, though it's in my best financial interest to stay at this one for at least another 2 months. I'm also aware of the option to switch teams to another manager.
That said, I really am interested in figuring out ways to deal with my current manager in my current job as it currently exists, because even the above options take time.
And I want to get a good recommendation from this manager when I do switch jobs! So coping with the resentment is important either way.
posted by danceswithlight at 1:00 PM on June 14, 2022
That said, I really am interested in figuring out ways to deal with my current manager in my current job as it currently exists, because even the above options take time.
And I want to get a good recommendation from this manager when I do switch jobs! So coping with the resentment is important either way.
posted by danceswithlight at 1:00 PM on June 14, 2022
asks me to project-manage stuff that he's responsible for, like literally asked me to "be the taskmaster" and remind him to make sure that he gets things done
This is how to handle this guy!
You and the woman who also shows awareness of his shortcomings can work together to manage him.
But first you’ll need to get your resentment about his failure to actually manage much of anything under control.
I mean, lots of managers are like this, and yours seems pretty good-natured in general — and I think I can almost guarantee that you will be so much happier with him than you would be with a more superficially competent and typically much more waspish micromanager.
posted by jamjam at 1:08 PM on June 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
This is how to handle this guy!
You and the woman who also shows awareness of his shortcomings can work together to manage him.
But first you’ll need to get your resentment about his failure to actually manage much of anything under control.
I mean, lots of managers are like this, and yours seems pretty good-natured in general — and I think I can almost guarantee that you will be so much happier with him than you would be with a more superficially competent and typically much more waspish micromanager.
posted by jamjam at 1:08 PM on June 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
Get things in writing or make it obvious that you're writing them down. You don't need to be officious about it -- just say it's about avoiding confusion -- but knowing that there is a real record of their behavior can help people clean up their act.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:25 PM on June 14, 2022
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:25 PM on June 14, 2022
Beginning and end of day email check-ins: here’s what I’m working on today; here’s what I completed; here’s what’s up next; these are the critical blockers I need help resolving and the specific action items I need from you with deadlines.
When something is approaching a deadline and he’s not taking needed action: delivery of xyz is at risk; negative outcome will be abc; if you take (specific action) before (date) we can avoid/mitigate that outcome. I’m going to throw 15 mins on our calendars later today to discuss. If he ghosts you, reply the next day and cc his boss or another key stakeholder and say “touching base on the issue below and looping in (stakeholder) for awareness.” Mark both emails as high importance.
It’s expected at my company that the employee drives the agenda for their 1:1s, so that part doesn’t seem out of the norm to me.
Good luck!
posted by ohneat at 1:28 PM on June 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
When something is approaching a deadline and he’s not taking needed action: delivery of xyz is at risk; negative outcome will be abc; if you take (specific action) before (date) we can avoid/mitigate that outcome. I’m going to throw 15 mins on our calendars later today to discuss. If he ghosts you, reply the next day and cc his boss or another key stakeholder and say “touching base on the issue below and looping in (stakeholder) for awareness.” Mark both emails as high importance.
It’s expected at my company that the employee drives the agenda for their 1:1s, so that part doesn’t seem out of the norm to me.
Good luck!
posted by ohneat at 1:28 PM on June 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
I agree with JamJam. And I think the best way to tame the resentment is to realize that by his standards, managing him IS part of your job.
So when he says, "Sorry I didn't get to that, I know it's been a while, is that okay?" there is, in fact, a politically savvy way to say "No, it's not okay." You do it like:
"I know you're busy, I hate to push, but you DID ask me to be the taskmaster on this. Unless X gets done by Y, I'm not going to be able to do Z. It's going to make us both look bad to (bigger boss, clients, customers, whoever) when we can't show that Z is progressing. So there's a hard deadline - we HAVE to get it done right now. What can I do to help you get X done? Is there some part of X that I can do to keep things moving forward?"
You can also deal with his failures of communication by being incredibly explicit - like to a Vulcan degree - with your own communications.
"Okay, I hear you - you want me to focus on X. I can do that, but it means Y is going to have to be on the back burner. I'll email (other manager) about this and CC you, so we're all on the same page."
"Oh, okay - you want me to stop taking assignments from (other manager). I can do that, but I'll need to let (other manager) know. I'll send them an email and CC you, so we're all on the same page."
Go into every meeting with him with a mental script for what you will say if he hasn't done the things you need him to have done. Say the script, no matter how apologetic he is. You can match his tone, sound conciliatory, be polite - but be sure you say it.
Repeat everything, document everything, CC everybody. If he won't do his job, make sure you are seen to be doing your own job by as many people as possible - and make sure everyone knows that your actions are coming from requests made by your manager. Leave no loopholes.
And do get out of there as soon as you can. Best of luck!
posted by invincible summer at 1:30 PM on June 14, 2022 [9 favorites]
So when he says, "Sorry I didn't get to that, I know it's been a while, is that okay?" there is, in fact, a politically savvy way to say "No, it's not okay." You do it like:
"I know you're busy, I hate to push, but you DID ask me to be the taskmaster on this. Unless X gets done by Y, I'm not going to be able to do Z. It's going to make us both look bad to (bigger boss, clients, customers, whoever) when we can't show that Z is progressing. So there's a hard deadline - we HAVE to get it done right now. What can I do to help you get X done? Is there some part of X that I can do to keep things moving forward?"
You can also deal with his failures of communication by being incredibly explicit - like to a Vulcan degree - with your own communications.
"Okay, I hear you - you want me to focus on X. I can do that, but it means Y is going to have to be on the back burner. I'll email (other manager) about this and CC you, so we're all on the same page."
"Oh, okay - you want me to stop taking assignments from (other manager). I can do that, but I'll need to let (other manager) know. I'll send them an email and CC you, so we're all on the same page."
Go into every meeting with him with a mental script for what you will say if he hasn't done the things you need him to have done. Say the script, no matter how apologetic he is. You can match his tone, sound conciliatory, be polite - but be sure you say it.
Repeat everything, document everything, CC everybody. If he won't do his job, make sure you are seen to be doing your own job by as many people as possible - and make sure everyone knows that your actions are coming from requests made by your manager. Leave no loopholes.
And do get out of there as soon as you can. Best of luck!
posted by invincible summer at 1:30 PM on June 14, 2022 [9 favorites]
Yeah I'm sorry, it sounds like your manager is sort of cheerfully abusing you at this point and doesn't respect you.
If you're determined to stay on for the short term, and you really need him to get his stuff done, and he's asked you to taskmaster him - can you actually schedule meeting times for him to specifically get those things done?
I'm not sure what to suggest about important changes being made while you're out and then not informing you. I guess you could try proactively checking with people to see if any important changes were made while you were out, but that doesn't guarantee they'll actually have the wherewithal tell you about them.
posted by wondermouse at 1:32 PM on June 14, 2022
If you're determined to stay on for the short term, and you really need him to get his stuff done, and he's asked you to taskmaster him - can you actually schedule meeting times for him to specifically get those things done?
I'm not sure what to suggest about important changes being made while you're out and then not informing you. I guess you could try proactively checking with people to see if any important changes were made while you were out, but that doesn't guarantee they'll actually have the wherewithal tell you about them.
posted by wondermouse at 1:32 PM on June 14, 2022
I think of my job not as a job description, but as “do my job in a way that makes my boss happy they hired me and feel safe because I’m on the team”. Often that means extra tasks like listening to them, diving deep on their pet projects, delivering info in a way that they can absorb, etc. I kind of see it as, “they hired me to have their back and help mop up their weak spots”. It helps me to see that as an actual job description.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 1:41 PM on June 14, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by nouvelle-personne at 1:41 PM on June 14, 2022 [9 favorites]
Nice is worth a lot in my book!
What level are you? In my org, if you're a senior contributor there's an expectation that you can handle ambiguity, pivots, and incomplete information. And that you'll really drive the area you have responsibility over. The manager is there to remove obstacles, resource you appropriately, and handle the people network. "Capable of handling ambiguity" is a specific competency in our leadership framework.
One way to approach this is to adopt a new perspective: you are practicing for senior level role that brings with it ambiguity and incomplete direction and advocating and pushing for what needs to get done. You're building up concrete examples to talk about when you start interviewing!
posted by everythings_interrelated at 2:09 PM on June 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
What level are you? In my org, if you're a senior contributor there's an expectation that you can handle ambiguity, pivots, and incomplete information. And that you'll really drive the area you have responsibility over. The manager is there to remove obstacles, resource you appropriately, and handle the people network. "Capable of handling ambiguity" is a specific competency in our leadership framework.
One way to approach this is to adopt a new perspective: you are practicing for senior level role that brings with it ambiguity and incomplete direction and advocating and pushing for what needs to get done. You're building up concrete examples to talk about when you start interviewing!
posted by everythings_interrelated at 2:09 PM on June 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
All staff/boss relationships are literally enabling relationships. You can't change this person while you're still enabling them. You can't stop enabling them while you want to keep your job and your solid recommendation.
One thing I specifically would like help on is what to say when he tells me yet again, "I know you asked for this thing last week, I didn't get to it, I'm sorry, I'll get to it soon/tomorrow/next week, is that okay?" Because no, it's not okay anymore, and I have zero faith that his promise means anything. Plus this pattern of apologizing and not doing anything about it can be kinda triggering for me because a problematic ex of mine used to do that all the time.
Options:
You could say "oh, it's no big!" and suck it up, but that's not an option anymore.
You could speak frankly to the behavior and is impact on you, but what's the use in that? As you point out, this person has demonstrated repeatedly that they unable to hold to verbal commitments they make to you. It's useless to negotiate frankly with someone when you don't trust them to follow through, especially when your counterpart is good at placating people. (I have worked with some superior placators and their superpowers were vexing to me)
You could try to escalate and get his boss to deal with the problem. As someone who has contributed to the fall or reassignment of a couple of my bosses, I say that this can be done. However, it is a long-term project that is extremely difficult and I needed to build my own power base and reputation outside of my chain of command to do this. Your boss got hired by your grandboss because your grandboss thought your boss was a good choice. Explaining to your grandboss that they were wrong about your boss is a thing you need to approach with some subtlety, you have to incept them.
I agree with the consensus: this gordian knot cannot be untied without the sword of resignation. Also, if you want to change jobs in two months, now is a good time to start looking. Job changes in my experience take months, between searching, interviewing, etc.
posted by Sauce Trough at 2:24 PM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
One thing I specifically would like help on is what to say when he tells me yet again, "I know you asked for this thing last week, I didn't get to it, I'm sorry, I'll get to it soon/tomorrow/next week, is that okay?" Because no, it's not okay anymore, and I have zero faith that his promise means anything. Plus this pattern of apologizing and not doing anything about it can be kinda triggering for me because a problematic ex of mine used to do that all the time.
Options:
You could say "oh, it's no big!" and suck it up, but that's not an option anymore.
You could speak frankly to the behavior and is impact on you, but what's the use in that? As you point out, this person has demonstrated repeatedly that they unable to hold to verbal commitments they make to you. It's useless to negotiate frankly with someone when you don't trust them to follow through, especially when your counterpart is good at placating people. (I have worked with some superior placators and their superpowers were vexing to me)
You could try to escalate and get his boss to deal with the problem. As someone who has contributed to the fall or reassignment of a couple of my bosses, I say that this can be done. However, it is a long-term project that is extremely difficult and I needed to build my own power base and reputation outside of my chain of command to do this. Your boss got hired by your grandboss because your grandboss thought your boss was a good choice. Explaining to your grandboss that they were wrong about your boss is a thing you need to approach with some subtlety, you have to incept them.
I agree with the consensus: this gordian knot cannot be untied without the sword of resignation. Also, if you want to change jobs in two months, now is a good time to start looking. Job changes in my experience take months, between searching, interviewing, etc.
posted by Sauce Trough at 2:24 PM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
For purely dealing with resentment, realize that they other people around your manager probably see their behavior and have noticed it. They’re remembering and noticing the good work you’re doing (and dealing with a crappy situation) even if you aren’t getting credit for it
posted by raccoon409 at 2:47 PM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by raccoon409 at 2:47 PM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
Resentment? well... you do get to put on your resume that you were responsible for the successful implementation of xyz project.
And maybe it's worth having a conversation with your boss about what level of involvement he needs to have on these decisions. You can always put in your email that if you don't hear back by [date] that you will assume you have approval to move forward.
posted by oceano at 3:58 PM on June 14, 2022
And maybe it's worth having a conversation with your boss about what level of involvement he needs to have on these decisions. You can always put in your email that if you don't hear back by [date] that you will assume you have approval to move forward.
posted by oceano at 3:58 PM on June 14, 2022
Yeah, so my guess is that your manager has ADHD, perhaps undiagnosed but if not then poorly managed, and has some guilt and shame around that and also has good intentions. That your manager wants you to be project manager suggests to me that he knows he needs structure and lacks the ability to create it himself. In the olden days, a manager with some skills and poor executive function had secretaries to keep them organized.
I'm not your manager, but I am a manager with ADHD, and I struggle with some of these same issues, and I know my direct reports see it the most. I'm not going to defend this, but I hope I can share some insights.
First, does your manager have any skills that you do see? I ask because it can be helpful to see what they do bring to the job. Also, there are lots of things your manager is doing that you might never see or know about. That can be hard to believe, but having been on both sides of this kind of thing, I know that there are things happening at the manager's level that you'll likely never be aware of.
While I hear you saying you think your manager should be doing this stuff, I don't necessarily think it's always a manager's job to also be a project manager. Many companies have project managers separate from folks who are leading other teams. And, yes, it's actually not uncommon for tasks and projects to be managed by folks who are lower in the organization.
When you say other folks in the organization seem to have fewer problems with this, a few things come to mind: first, they are likely more tolerant of it and perhaps aren't as triggered by it. Like, maybe they just expect it from this guy. Also, you are likely more dependent and aware of all this because he's your manager. Also, are you a woman and are the more tolerant folks men? Because it's possible there's some (perhaps unintentional) sexism involved and he's prioritizing things for others differently than for you and the other woman you mentioned.
Also, some people just work differently and have different approaches to deadlines.
A person I know went crazy because meetings in my organization never started on time. To her, on time was, for a 10am meeting, exactly 10am. Ours start at, say, 10:04 or 10:05. Sometimes that's because folks are coming from other meetings or service points or just running late. It's also because most people are fine with this. It drove her bonkers. I remember having a conversation with her where I said, "Look, what if you just adjusted it in your head such that you expected meetings to start at five minutes after the stated starting time?" Because company culture isn't going to change just because she thinks it's wrong. She thinks it's wrong because she was more familiar with other cultures.
It sounds like this behavior is super unsettling for you, partly because of an ex. I doubt that you'll get past your resentment in the short term. And, yeah, you might just have to slog through the next two months. But I think what would need to happen, if you were to be less frustrated in your current role, is just to stop caring when he doesn't meet deadlines. Likely he's overexplaining because he can sense your judgment. What happens if you just ... add time onto whatever deadline he gives you? He saids "next week" and mentally you know that means "three weeks."
I had another coworker who got super irritated at another coworker's behavior and she almost... went looking for it? Like, she kept testing the other coworker to make sure it was as bad as she thought. And it was! It definitely did not make her feel better to have "proof."
So just take a step back and read about ADHD and stop expecting him to be different than what he is. Yes, it's tough. He isn't going to change. This isn't you managing up better.
If you have good task management skills and can set up project outlines for various things, that might help you both do better. If you're not up for it, then grit your teeth and get out when you can.
posted by bluedaisy at 5:57 PM on June 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'm not your manager, but I am a manager with ADHD, and I struggle with some of these same issues, and I know my direct reports see it the most. I'm not going to defend this, but I hope I can share some insights.
First, does your manager have any skills that you do see? I ask because it can be helpful to see what they do bring to the job. Also, there are lots of things your manager is doing that you might never see or know about. That can be hard to believe, but having been on both sides of this kind of thing, I know that there are things happening at the manager's level that you'll likely never be aware of.
While I hear you saying you think your manager should be doing this stuff, I don't necessarily think it's always a manager's job to also be a project manager. Many companies have project managers separate from folks who are leading other teams. And, yes, it's actually not uncommon for tasks and projects to be managed by folks who are lower in the organization.
When you say other folks in the organization seem to have fewer problems with this, a few things come to mind: first, they are likely more tolerant of it and perhaps aren't as triggered by it. Like, maybe they just expect it from this guy. Also, you are likely more dependent and aware of all this because he's your manager. Also, are you a woman and are the more tolerant folks men? Because it's possible there's some (perhaps unintentional) sexism involved and he's prioritizing things for others differently than for you and the other woman you mentioned.
Also, some people just work differently and have different approaches to deadlines.
A person I know went crazy because meetings in my organization never started on time. To her, on time was, for a 10am meeting, exactly 10am. Ours start at, say, 10:04 or 10:05. Sometimes that's because folks are coming from other meetings or service points or just running late. It's also because most people are fine with this. It drove her bonkers. I remember having a conversation with her where I said, "Look, what if you just adjusted it in your head such that you expected meetings to start at five minutes after the stated starting time?" Because company culture isn't going to change just because she thinks it's wrong. She thinks it's wrong because she was more familiar with other cultures.
It sounds like this behavior is super unsettling for you, partly because of an ex. I doubt that you'll get past your resentment in the short term. And, yeah, you might just have to slog through the next two months. But I think what would need to happen, if you were to be less frustrated in your current role, is just to stop caring when he doesn't meet deadlines. Likely he's overexplaining because he can sense your judgment. What happens if you just ... add time onto whatever deadline he gives you? He saids "next week" and mentally you know that means "three weeks."
I had another coworker who got super irritated at another coworker's behavior and she almost... went looking for it? Like, she kept testing the other coworker to make sure it was as bad as she thought. And it was! It definitely did not make her feel better to have "proof."
So just take a step back and read about ADHD and stop expecting him to be different than what he is. Yes, it's tough. He isn't going to change. This isn't you managing up better.
If you have good task management skills and can set up project outlines for various things, that might help you both do better. If you're not up for it, then grit your teeth and get out when you can.
posted by bluedaisy at 5:57 PM on June 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
What bluedaisy said.
I would also gently challenge if it is really unreasonable to expect you to 'manage' some things. A lot of very busy people in supervisory roles absolutely rely on the people who work for them to tell them when they have to do something, what exactly that is and to make it as easy as possible for them to do the thing. They bring experience and expertise to the thing, will help you work through problems or challenges. But they need the person reporting to take care of the project management piece.
It varies hugely how much prompting/chasing people need. Some people just need a Teams message with a link to something. Others need you to go and actually schedule a timeslot for them to do the thing, potentially in the form of a meeting with you where you pull up the documents and literally walk them through the highlights to start out with and perhaps leave them to read in peace for the rest of the slot. And they absolutely expect you to know what and when and to prompt them as required.
The extent to which that is the case clearly varies by role and seniority. But I absolutely point out to the people reporting to me that I am happy for them to pro-actively manage their work (and any people supporting them), as well as my expectations and my time (to a degree) and to involve me as required. In fact, I expect them to do these things if they want to advance. I also highlight that I want them to tell me when they need me to do things and remind me to do the things. But I am not like your boss and because my supervisors require me to be on top of all the things I will absolute become very hands on if I don't see things happen.
posted by koahiatamadl at 11:31 PM on June 14, 2022
I would also gently challenge if it is really unreasonable to expect you to 'manage' some things. A lot of very busy people in supervisory roles absolutely rely on the people who work for them to tell them when they have to do something, what exactly that is and to make it as easy as possible for them to do the thing. They bring experience and expertise to the thing, will help you work through problems or challenges. But they need the person reporting to take care of the project management piece.
It varies hugely how much prompting/chasing people need. Some people just need a Teams message with a link to something. Others need you to go and actually schedule a timeslot for them to do the thing, potentially in the form of a meeting with you where you pull up the documents and literally walk them through the highlights to start out with and perhaps leave them to read in peace for the rest of the slot. And they absolutely expect you to know what and when and to prompt them as required.
The extent to which that is the case clearly varies by role and seniority. But I absolutely point out to the people reporting to me that I am happy for them to pro-actively manage their work (and any people supporting them), as well as my expectations and my time (to a degree) and to involve me as required. In fact, I expect them to do these things if they want to advance. I also highlight that I want them to tell me when they need me to do things and remind me to do the things. But I am not like your boss and because my supervisors require me to be on top of all the things I will absolute become very hands on if I don't see things happen.
posted by koahiatamadl at 11:31 PM on June 14, 2022
Your manager might well have ADHD or some other issue, and thinking about what might be going on is a good way to increase compassion and ease resentment. It sounds like he is a "good guy" who is doing the best he can and is not deliberately abusing or disrespecting you. I agree that kindness and good nature are worth a lot.
But, especially if you are a woman, there might be something else at play. When I worked for Big Bureaucracy, I was often amazed by the way some managers, mainly men, would manage to make their direct reports, often women, responsible for the parts of their jobs they didn't want to do, often by stealth, sometimes by flattery and superficial kindness, and almost always without any official recognition or delegation of responsibility. We were just expected to smile and smooth things over, "without making a big deal out of it" and also without making anybody look or feel bad by pointing out that they were not doing their job. The "nicer" the guy, the more we were expected to just paper over the cracks. Women who needed similar help did not last long.
To this day I have a hard time watching the character of Joan on Mad Men, who ran the place but got little recognition because properly acknowledging her many contributions would have shamed her male colleagues.
Whatever your boss's issues, it's his own responsibility to figure out how to deal with them so that he can perform the functions he's being paid to perform. If he needs specific help from you, he needs to be clear about it and make sure you both understand what is going on. It sounds like this guy does expect you to take a high level of responsibility and ownership of your tasks/files, which is not quite the same thing as dumping his work on you. It can be a fine line, though.
There's a lot of good advice here about figuring out which parts of the job are essential, and which parts really belong to you. In the short term, I'd suggest looking at the tasks that are coming your way and figuring out which ones are important to you, either because they are actually part of your job, or because you enjoy doing them or can get relevant experience, profile, or other benefit from them. Then, speak to your boss explicitly about what he wants from you on the other stuff, and if he's not willing to spell things out, practice focussing on your own responsibilities. Eventually he, or maybe his boss, will realize that things need to be clarified. Let them do the work of clarifying it. If you do take on extra work, make sure your boss and others, including his boss, know what you have done.
Short of leaving, the only way to decrease resentment is to be very. realistic in your expectations and clear on your own goals and motivations. If something benefits you, it doesn't really matter if it also benefits somebody else. Even if you do end up leaving this job, learning how to get clear on these things will help you at the next one.
posted by rpfields at 12:29 PM on June 15, 2022
But, especially if you are a woman, there might be something else at play. When I worked for Big Bureaucracy, I was often amazed by the way some managers, mainly men, would manage to make their direct reports, often women, responsible for the parts of their jobs they didn't want to do, often by stealth, sometimes by flattery and superficial kindness, and almost always without any official recognition or delegation of responsibility. We were just expected to smile and smooth things over, "without making a big deal out of it" and also without making anybody look or feel bad by pointing out that they were not doing their job. The "nicer" the guy, the more we were expected to just paper over the cracks. Women who needed similar help did not last long.
To this day I have a hard time watching the character of Joan on Mad Men, who ran the place but got little recognition because properly acknowledging her many contributions would have shamed her male colleagues.
Whatever your boss's issues, it's his own responsibility to figure out how to deal with them so that he can perform the functions he's being paid to perform. If he needs specific help from you, he needs to be clear about it and make sure you both understand what is going on. It sounds like this guy does expect you to take a high level of responsibility and ownership of your tasks/files, which is not quite the same thing as dumping his work on you. It can be a fine line, though.
There's a lot of good advice here about figuring out which parts of the job are essential, and which parts really belong to you. In the short term, I'd suggest looking at the tasks that are coming your way and figuring out which ones are important to you, either because they are actually part of your job, or because you enjoy doing them or can get relevant experience, profile, or other benefit from them. Then, speak to your boss explicitly about what he wants from you on the other stuff, and if he's not willing to spell things out, practice focussing on your own responsibilities. Eventually he, or maybe his boss, will realize that things need to be clarified. Let them do the work of clarifying it. If you do take on extra work, make sure your boss and others, including his boss, know what you have done.
Short of leaving, the only way to decrease resentment is to be very. realistic in your expectations and clear on your own goals and motivations. If something benefits you, it doesn't really matter if it also benefits somebody else. Even if you do end up leaving this job, learning how to get clear on these things will help you at the next one.
posted by rpfields at 12:29 PM on June 15, 2022
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But then this is the big part- be ok if things fail. You did your part and you can only do so much. You have to cover yourself in case they try to throw you under the bus. But unless this is your own company and money, it’s ok if the business takes a hit.
And if it’s something like, Manager didn’t take their steps and a sale isn’t finalized so your commission takes a hit- job search. Because ultimately, a company who tolerates this behavior is not one where you will be happy in the end (and what else are they willing to tolerate?)
posted by raccoon409 at 12:29 PM on June 14, 2022 [10 favorites]