How to deal with undermining husband who undermined my parenting?
February 28, 2019 1:41 PM Subscribe
EXPAT EDITION: After 2 years of trying to make things work (which was a horrendous experience that I will piece out a bit more below the fold) I ended up staying back after christmas with the children and he went back to work. He is depressed and hates it and wants to quit his job and join us. I'm terrified. It wasn't ALL his fault but he was a big problem. HE KNOWS he was part of the problem, but he doesn't have anything to say about it. What to do?
This will be the snowflakyest question I think I will ever ask. I've been a contributing member here for a long time but wanted to use this account just for my privacy. I'll try my best to be concise but it just got very complicated.
I'm not even sure where to start.
I have been trying to deal with raising the children and for me in a foreign country this has been more difficult than I anticipated. I have lived in 5 countries (and this was my second non english speaking) but having children there was much different than being single and just having a good time.
When my children were 1,5 and 2,5 we found a bilingual nursery that had its own kindergarten and I thought it was going to be fantastic. And that we would have things settle down and just get on with being a family and......
THAT DID NOT HAPPEN....
NO, THAT WAS NOT AT ALL WHAT HAPPENED...
The stress has been constant. And my husband has not supported me as a mother.
For the last 2 years, since my oldest turned one, he has been undermining me and it HAS DRIVEN ME CRAZY. Some examples:
-I worked hard to tell them not to pick flowers. He thinks its fine and lets them pull off all the flowers in the garden and scatter the petals. He says its neat that they watch the petals fall. I think this is not so great in public. Later they rip off the roses in a bridal gazebo.
- He encourages them to throw stones around a river with other people around. When I said no then he said its fine. Later they are throwing rocks near smaller children. And basically throwing everything and jagging up the wood floor with their diecast cars.
- I was trying to get the off the baby bottles for a month and discussed this with him multiple times and when I went out for a day when I came back they were drinking juice in their baby bottles in the middle of the afternoon. He said he didn't know this.
- They are too heavy for me to carry and one morning he heard me tell the smaller one that he needed to walk downstairs in the morning. My older one (who is the size of a 5 year old by the way) turned to my husband and said "up up" and my husband picked him up and carried him down. The smaller guy was pissed. I was pissed. I SAID I WAS PISSED. Two days later it happened again- and my husband said to me that he read an article that you should choose your battles. I said that the person he needed to be choosing his battles with was ME. But that went in one ear and out the other.
-While was on a work trip at one point my older child woke me up multiple times asking for "music again" and then after the cd finished he asked for it again and it went on and on until the 3rd night I said- no more music! I was exhausted when my husband came home and in tears, he said to me: you get some sleep tonight, I WILL DEAL WITH THIS- YOU JUST PUT IN YOUR EARPLUGS. I said okay- BUT DO NOT PUT ON THE MUSIC UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. When I woke up at 2:30 to use the toilet I heard music coming from my childs room and I absolutely hit the roof.
-When I would give time outs he would let them out of timeout before they were ready and they would just come out continuing the tantrum or screaming.
He has taken NO interest WHATSOEVER in guiding our children. I have been the bad guy. If they started throwing puzzle pieces across the room then he doesn't stop them. If they start dropping play dough all over the place he doesn't try to instruct them.
I only ever hear a half hearted "mommy will be mad if...." or "listen to mommy"
So I get to be the big bad guy. Thanks.
I don't even know how it started, it was like Faulkner said about going broke, it happened gradually and then suddenly. I tried to address these things and I have gotten nowhere at all. If I try to discuss a consequence he just grunts.... or he whole hardheartedly agrees and then doesn't do it.
I had a young children's expert doctor visit the house to give us tips and planned an activity, discussed it with him, and then he went and did something different. Our paediatrician tried to speak with him that the parents need to be on the same page.
2016 was no picnic, but for the entirety of 2017 and 2018 has been pure hell.... full of extreme stress. For me I could have dealt with all of it but the undermining ruined my experience as a mother in those years. I have begged him, cried, screamed, discussed and all he ever says is "everyone makes a mistake, I didn't do it on purpose" that's it. That has been the last 2 years refrain.
And then the shit just hit the fan in September, my child transitioned to kindergarten and they felt he had big developmental delays and we went to early intervention, it came out over time that the kindergarten wasn't treating him very well and he had no friends there and the teachers had made him the scapegoat of the class. Add that to his sensory issues and he was a complete mess. His behaviour was very challenging and extreme and I was no longer able to take him out in public.
At christmas we went back to my husband's home country where we have a house and I found my son a little spot at a tiny preschool that he was keen to attend. So we stayed and I found him an occupational therapist and its now been 2 months and he has friends and loves his preschool and wants to go on the weekends. He isn't presenting as autistic, which he was before.
I asked my husband to just let things settle down. But he hasn't done that. I asked that we let things just sit for a bit and we discuss the best way forward at Easter, but he hasn't let that happen. He has talked about it non stop. First looking for kindergartens in our continental town and then saying he would quit his job (that was in January)... I asked him again to let things just settle down and try and make things right between us because I was so upset about the undermining....he didn't do that and yesterday started this up again. I seriously lost my shit then. I told him I was afraid of the undermining again and the fighting but he didn't have anything to say about it. Later in the day I wrote him a very nice email about just letting things settle, and let us spend nice times together and to please not push this.
My husband has brought home and unloaded an unblievable amount of stress on me on a daily basis for 2 years. Money stress, job stress, all kinds of things. But he doesn't listen to me when I try to offer advice. There is no end to it, it never stops. And when I try to make things better, it doesn't work. I miss the man that I first me.
I feel like I have done the best that I can. I hope I wrote this out well enough to get some wisdom. I don't want to DTMFA. We have had a lot of stress and this isn't all his fault. But I deserve respect and the family deserves nurturing.
Does anyone have any advice? I am terrified of him quitting his job and joining us here and this happens all over again. I think if he was willing to wait it out that the kids would be old enough to know a little better and the undermining wouldn't be so severe.
This will be the snowflakyest question I think I will ever ask. I've been a contributing member here for a long time but wanted to use this account just for my privacy. I'll try my best to be concise but it just got very complicated.
I'm not even sure where to start.
I have been trying to deal with raising the children and for me in a foreign country this has been more difficult than I anticipated. I have lived in 5 countries (and this was my second non english speaking) but having children there was much different than being single and just having a good time.
When my children were 1,5 and 2,5 we found a bilingual nursery that had its own kindergarten and I thought it was going to be fantastic. And that we would have things settle down and just get on with being a family and......
THAT DID NOT HAPPEN....
NO, THAT WAS NOT AT ALL WHAT HAPPENED...
The stress has been constant. And my husband has not supported me as a mother.
For the last 2 years, since my oldest turned one, he has been undermining me and it HAS DRIVEN ME CRAZY. Some examples:
-I worked hard to tell them not to pick flowers. He thinks its fine and lets them pull off all the flowers in the garden and scatter the petals. He says its neat that they watch the petals fall. I think this is not so great in public. Later they rip off the roses in a bridal gazebo.
- He encourages them to throw stones around a river with other people around. When I said no then he said its fine. Later they are throwing rocks near smaller children. And basically throwing everything and jagging up the wood floor with their diecast cars.
- I was trying to get the off the baby bottles for a month and discussed this with him multiple times and when I went out for a day when I came back they were drinking juice in their baby bottles in the middle of the afternoon. He said he didn't know this.
- They are too heavy for me to carry and one morning he heard me tell the smaller one that he needed to walk downstairs in the morning. My older one (who is the size of a 5 year old by the way) turned to my husband and said "up up" and my husband picked him up and carried him down. The smaller guy was pissed. I was pissed. I SAID I WAS PISSED. Two days later it happened again- and my husband said to me that he read an article that you should choose your battles. I said that the person he needed to be choosing his battles with was ME. But that went in one ear and out the other.
-While was on a work trip at one point my older child woke me up multiple times asking for "music again" and then after the cd finished he asked for it again and it went on and on until the 3rd night I said- no more music! I was exhausted when my husband came home and in tears, he said to me: you get some sleep tonight, I WILL DEAL WITH THIS- YOU JUST PUT IN YOUR EARPLUGS. I said okay- BUT DO NOT PUT ON THE MUSIC UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. When I woke up at 2:30 to use the toilet I heard music coming from my childs room and I absolutely hit the roof.
-When I would give time outs he would let them out of timeout before they were ready and they would just come out continuing the tantrum or screaming.
He has taken NO interest WHATSOEVER in guiding our children. I have been the bad guy. If they started throwing puzzle pieces across the room then he doesn't stop them. If they start dropping play dough all over the place he doesn't try to instruct them.
I only ever hear a half hearted "mommy will be mad if...." or "listen to mommy"
So I get to be the big bad guy. Thanks.
I don't even know how it started, it was like Faulkner said about going broke, it happened gradually and then suddenly. I tried to address these things and I have gotten nowhere at all. If I try to discuss a consequence he just grunts.... or he whole hardheartedly agrees and then doesn't do it.
I had a young children's expert doctor visit the house to give us tips and planned an activity, discussed it with him, and then he went and did something different. Our paediatrician tried to speak with him that the parents need to be on the same page.
2016 was no picnic, but for the entirety of 2017 and 2018 has been pure hell.... full of extreme stress. For me I could have dealt with all of it but the undermining ruined my experience as a mother in those years. I have begged him, cried, screamed, discussed and all he ever says is "everyone makes a mistake, I didn't do it on purpose" that's it. That has been the last 2 years refrain.
And then the shit just hit the fan in September, my child transitioned to kindergarten and they felt he had big developmental delays and we went to early intervention, it came out over time that the kindergarten wasn't treating him very well and he had no friends there and the teachers had made him the scapegoat of the class. Add that to his sensory issues and he was a complete mess. His behaviour was very challenging and extreme and I was no longer able to take him out in public.
At christmas we went back to my husband's home country where we have a house and I found my son a little spot at a tiny preschool that he was keen to attend. So we stayed and I found him an occupational therapist and its now been 2 months and he has friends and loves his preschool and wants to go on the weekends. He isn't presenting as autistic, which he was before.
I asked my husband to just let things settle down. But he hasn't done that. I asked that we let things just sit for a bit and we discuss the best way forward at Easter, but he hasn't let that happen. He has talked about it non stop. First looking for kindergartens in our continental town and then saying he would quit his job (that was in January)... I asked him again to let things just settle down and try and make things right between us because I was so upset about the undermining....he didn't do that and yesterday started this up again. I seriously lost my shit then. I told him I was afraid of the undermining again and the fighting but he didn't have anything to say about it. Later in the day I wrote him a very nice email about just letting things settle, and let us spend nice times together and to please not push this.
My husband has brought home and unloaded an unblievable amount of stress on me on a daily basis for 2 years. Money stress, job stress, all kinds of things. But he doesn't listen to me when I try to offer advice. There is no end to it, it never stops. And when I try to make things better, it doesn't work. I miss the man that I first me.
I feel like I have done the best that I can. I hope I wrote this out well enough to get some wisdom. I don't want to DTMFA. We have had a lot of stress and this isn't all his fault. But I deserve respect and the family deserves nurturing.
Does anyone have any advice? I am terrified of him quitting his job and joining us here and this happens all over again. I think if he was willing to wait it out that the kids would be old enough to know a little better and the undermining wouldn't be so severe.
At christmas we went back to my husband's home country where we have a house and I found my son a little spot at a tiny preschool that he was keen to attend. So we stayed and I found him an occupational therapist and its now been 2 months and he has friends and loves his preschool and wants to go on the weekends.
Seems like you need to stay in this place?
Maybe if your husband wants to leave he can leave and you stay put? And tell him that?
Whatever your limit is you seem way past it and it's time to make an ultimatum on the constant moving. That is destructive to you and your children and it needs to stop.
As far as the other stuff, that seems like stuff you need to work out in counseling.
posted by nikaspark at 1:53 PM on February 28, 2019
Seems like you need to stay in this place?
Maybe if your husband wants to leave he can leave and you stay put? And tell him that?
Whatever your limit is you seem way past it and it's time to make an ultimatum on the constant moving. That is destructive to you and your children and it needs to stop.
As far as the other stuff, that seems like stuff you need to work out in counseling.
posted by nikaspark at 1:53 PM on February 28, 2019
Response by poster: Sorry! Just to clarify- I have asked for counselling and he refused multiple times and arranged parenting coaches and he did not engage with them. We (2 kids and myself) have stayed put here in his home country after christmas when he went back to work in Other Country.
posted by flink at 2:03 PM on February 28, 2019
posted by flink at 2:03 PM on February 28, 2019
I mean, given that, there's no magic bullet here. He doesn't want to change. He knows how it's affecting you and he doesn't care. He knows there are things he could do to fix them and he doesn't care. He knows you're upset and stressed and he doesn't care. He knows the kids did poorly in the other environment and he doesn't care. There is no way to make him care, no way to make him be a better parent, and no way to make your life better while you're with him.
I recommend you seek out therapy for yourself, keep advocating for your children, and do what you can to keep them away from him, because he doesn't care about their or your well being.
posted by brainmouse at 2:14 PM on February 28, 2019 [32 favorites]
I recommend you seek out therapy for yourself, keep advocating for your children, and do what you can to keep them away from him, because he doesn't care about their or your well being.
posted by brainmouse at 2:14 PM on February 28, 2019 [32 favorites]
Yes, seek therapy for yourself. I highly recommend Vivian Chiona of expat nest. I'm working through some stuff with her now and she has been so helpful - really lovely. She's just a good therapist - but tuned in to the additional complications of being an expat / in a multi-cultural relationship, which therapists I've seen previously typically just don't "get". It's so nice to be supported and have some space to work stuff out.
Me mail me if you want. I'm an expat mama too.
posted by jrobin276 at 2:47 PM on February 28, 2019 [4 favorites]
Me mail me if you want. I'm an expat mama too.
posted by jrobin276 at 2:47 PM on February 28, 2019 [4 favorites]
Hmm. I guess I’d reframe the above a little. Some of what you describe as undermining sounds to me like a situation in which your husband 1) is in the position of enforcing rules he did not agree to and does not like and/or 2) doesn’t have the requisite skills to enforce them well (the CD in the night thing - which I agree is counterproductive but he is far from the only parent to make dumb/short-term-thinking-style choices when sleep deprived). I think it’s fair to say this is a problem, but I don’t think it’s fair to conclude he doesn’t care about your kids’ well-being.
Have you ever had an explicit discussion about what the rules should be? Has there ever been a time when you have agreed to try something his way? The fact that the kids are your full time job (I think?) changes the stakes a little, and maybe gives you the right to have more than 50% of the vote, but I have the sense from this post that you basically think he should have none, and the only place that leads is DTMFA.
I’m glad you have found a good situation for your kids. If he’s trying to get YOU to move (I don’t think so, from what you’ve said) then that is a bigger issue.
posted by eirias at 2:47 PM on February 28, 2019 [18 favorites]
Have you ever had an explicit discussion about what the rules should be? Has there ever been a time when you have agreed to try something his way? The fact that the kids are your full time job (I think?) changes the stakes a little, and maybe gives you the right to have more than 50% of the vote, but I have the sense from this post that you basically think he should have none, and the only place that leads is DTMFA.
I’m glad you have found a good situation for your kids. If he’s trying to get YOU to move (I don’t think so, from what you’ve said) then that is a bigger issue.
posted by eirias at 2:47 PM on February 28, 2019 [18 favorites]
No matter what, pretty much, I think your husband should work as a team with you. A doctor even said so. And that’s worth fighting for.
A lot of the rest of your examples though strike me as petty and maybe emblematic of an anxiety or perfection issue. I get that you are trying to describe death by a thousand cuts. But letting kids throw rocks in rivers or pluck petals or carrying the child you didn’t speak with...these are annoying, sure, but to me they are part of the usual rub between parents of different styles. He has a different, less controlling approach. Has he been able to share in deciding about these relatively arbitrary rules? My husband threw rocks with my kids and I was like, ugh. But they love it and yes, were able to learn which rocks are ok...and actually I learned to enjoy it too and have some great memories of rock skipping, now.
I think you need to focus on both of you having a voice. But not on these minute (for the most part) failures. He’s saying he wants to be a family. Are the petals and bottles and music really worth telling him he can’t be part of your family?
posted by warriorqueen at 2:53 PM on February 28, 2019 [12 favorites]
A lot of the rest of your examples though strike me as petty and maybe emblematic of an anxiety or perfection issue. I get that you are trying to describe death by a thousand cuts. But letting kids throw rocks in rivers or pluck petals or carrying the child you didn’t speak with...these are annoying, sure, but to me they are part of the usual rub between parents of different styles. He has a different, less controlling approach. Has he been able to share in deciding about these relatively arbitrary rules? My husband threw rocks with my kids and I was like, ugh. But they love it and yes, were able to learn which rocks are ok...and actually I learned to enjoy it too and have some great memories of rock skipping, now.
I think you need to focus on both of you having a voice. But not on these minute (for the most part) failures. He’s saying he wants to be a family. Are the petals and bottles and music really worth telling him he can’t be part of your family?
posted by warriorqueen at 2:53 PM on February 28, 2019 [12 favorites]
I mean, you can't stop him living where he wants to live, but you can tell him he can't live in the same house as you and you're filing for separation to enforce this.
Then do that.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:54 PM on February 28, 2019 [5 favorites]
Then do that.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:54 PM on February 28, 2019 [5 favorites]
I have asked for counselling and he refused multiple times and arranged parenting coaches and he did not engage with them.
There are two things here. The first, least important one, is that you two should take some parenting classes together so that you can decide together how you will parent the kids. It sounds like you two have different ideas about parenting, neither of which sound strongly right or wrong to me (not a parent, do work in education). If you presented the parenting coach as "a professional who will teach you that you are wrong and I am right" he was probably not into that. Be open to the idea that you are BOTH doing things "wrong" in your parenting that you need to change, as well as doing things "right" that the other parent could work on.
The second is that he refuses to engage with counseling, which means you might not be able to do the first thing, and you are so fed up with him that you moved to a different country away from your husband to get away from the marriage and you actively don't want to live with him. You say you don't want to DTMFA...but haven't you essentially done that already? I think you should get your own counselor to work out if you want to formalize leaving the marriage or if you want to do something to improve it.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 2:59 PM on February 28, 2019 [5 favorites]
There are two things here. The first, least important one, is that you two should take some parenting classes together so that you can decide together how you will parent the kids. It sounds like you two have different ideas about parenting, neither of which sound strongly right or wrong to me (not a parent, do work in education). If you presented the parenting coach as "a professional who will teach you that you are wrong and I am right" he was probably not into that. Be open to the idea that you are BOTH doing things "wrong" in your parenting that you need to change, as well as doing things "right" that the other parent could work on.
The second is that he refuses to engage with counseling, which means you might not be able to do the first thing, and you are so fed up with him that you moved to a different country away from your husband to get away from the marriage and you actively don't want to live with him. You say you don't want to DTMFA...but haven't you essentially done that already? I think you should get your own counselor to work out if you want to formalize leaving the marriage or if you want to do something to improve it.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 2:59 PM on February 28, 2019 [5 favorites]
Oh, I feel for you - your stress is jumping off the screen! I can feel the death by 1000 papercuts thing that's happening here.
So I'm going to take you at your word that you don't want to DTMFA but want to stay and make it better. If he will not go to therapy and will not really change beyond some short-lived lip service, then I think it's time to ask yourself a painful question:
Would you rather be right or happy?
If it's more important to you that your rules are followed, you will not be happy in this marriage, whether he lives with you or not.
If it's more important to you to be happy and have a harmonious household, then you need to do some soulsearching to choose your battles. For example, I could probably look the other way about the rock-throwing thing (obviously only as long as nobody is being hurt), but I would find it a lot harder to put up with the sleep thing, because building the routine is so important. These are my values, though, and you'll find your own. So step 1: find your absolute dealbreakers, communicate them to your husband, and grin and bear the rest. It does actually get a lot easier as you realize your kids won't turn into hoodlums if they don't listen 100% of the time! (Ask me how I know...)
Step 2 (to be done concurrently): find a way to de-stress a bit, so that you can de-escalate the situation. Right now you're both feeding off each other's stress and anxiety and that doesn't help anyone. So take some steps to ground yourself so that you can be less reactionary. If you have access to a babysitter, wonderful. But even if you don't, you can meditate, you can take strolls in the park or woods with the kids, you can pet an animal, you can do some adult coloring or whatever floats your boat. I know it's really hard to even contemplate this, with small kids and all the stress you're under, but your life will not get better until you reduce some of this stress.
This is already long, so I'll stop here. But I think you can do this! Just know and trust that your kids will be fine - you have SO MUCH time to teach them good manners later - it doesn't all have to be done right now.
Good luck!!
posted by widdershins at 3:16 PM on February 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
So I'm going to take you at your word that you don't want to DTMFA but want to stay and make it better. If he will not go to therapy and will not really change beyond some short-lived lip service, then I think it's time to ask yourself a painful question:
Would you rather be right or happy?
If it's more important to you that your rules are followed, you will not be happy in this marriage, whether he lives with you or not.
If it's more important to you to be happy and have a harmonious household, then you need to do some soulsearching to choose your battles. For example, I could probably look the other way about the rock-throwing thing (obviously only as long as nobody is being hurt), but I would find it a lot harder to put up with the sleep thing, because building the routine is so important. These are my values, though, and you'll find your own. So step 1: find your absolute dealbreakers, communicate them to your husband, and grin and bear the rest. It does actually get a lot easier as you realize your kids won't turn into hoodlums if they don't listen 100% of the time! (Ask me how I know...)
Step 2 (to be done concurrently): find a way to de-stress a bit, so that you can de-escalate the situation. Right now you're both feeding off each other's stress and anxiety and that doesn't help anyone. So take some steps to ground yourself so that you can be less reactionary. If you have access to a babysitter, wonderful. But even if you don't, you can meditate, you can take strolls in the park or woods with the kids, you can pet an animal, you can do some adult coloring or whatever floats your boat. I know it's really hard to even contemplate this, with small kids and all the stress you're under, but your life will not get better until you reduce some of this stress.
This is already long, so I'll stop here. But I think you can do this! Just know and trust that your kids will be fine - you have SO MUCH time to teach them good manners later - it doesn't all have to be done right now.
Good luck!!
posted by widdershins at 3:16 PM on February 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
It sounds very complicated but it seems like you and the children are happy where you are and you are scared of him quitting his job and coming back- ie you prefer him in other country and do not want to move. So then it sounds like you have to tell him that you aren't moving or removing the child from his or her preschool. Then you have to tell him that if he returns, you want to go to marital counselling together. If he refuses, then you might actually have to look at separating. Actually you don't HAVE to do anything, but you can't control him you can only control where you are and what you want. So, if he is not able to live with you in a way you can tolerate, then you may have to look into splitting up. But since that would also be massively disruptive, I think real counselling and follow through would be the best. And I would get an individual counsellor too. If he quits his job that's his choice and to leave his job elsewhere and re-join his family is not an unreasonable want for him to have. So you need to be ready to make a decision when/if that happens.
posted by bquarters at 3:33 PM on February 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by bquarters at 3:33 PM on February 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
I am terrified of him quitting his job and joining us here and this happens all over again.
I'm not sure how to reconcile this with not wanting to D his MFA. You don't want him to move back with you guys and rejoin the daily family dynamic -- in what way to do want your relationship with him to continue, exactly? You sound quite done.
And I am very sympathetic to your position. What he's doing really is undermining, not just a different parenting style. Per your examples, all of the parenting choices he's making seem to be predicated on minimizing the time, effort, and discipline required of him. And this "mommy will be mad if" stuff is really heinous. That is explicitly rejecting the role of co-parent to stay on the kid's good side by positioning you as the authority figure that both he and the kids have to placate.
I think if he was willing to wait it out that the kids would be old enough to know a little better and the undermining wouldn't be so severe.
Your parenting challenges are just as likely get harder, with higher stakes, as your kids get older. And by then they will be smart enough to be deliberate about triangulating between the two of you if they know that dad is the pliable one.
I don't believe that therapists or counselors are a panacea but one way or another, you have to get him on board with fully participating in devising (and enforcing, whenever it falls on him) a coherent shared parenting strategy. If he won't then you don't really have a co-parent or a full partner in your relationship.
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:50 PM on February 28, 2019 [16 favorites]
I'm not sure how to reconcile this with not wanting to D his MFA. You don't want him to move back with you guys and rejoin the daily family dynamic -- in what way to do want your relationship with him to continue, exactly? You sound quite done.
And I am very sympathetic to your position. What he's doing really is undermining, not just a different parenting style. Per your examples, all of the parenting choices he's making seem to be predicated on minimizing the time, effort, and discipline required of him. And this "mommy will be mad if" stuff is really heinous. That is explicitly rejecting the role of co-parent to stay on the kid's good side by positioning you as the authority figure that both he and the kids have to placate.
I think if he was willing to wait it out that the kids would be old enough to know a little better and the undermining wouldn't be so severe.
Your parenting challenges are just as likely get harder, with higher stakes, as your kids get older. And by then they will be smart enough to be deliberate about triangulating between the two of you if they know that dad is the pliable one.
I don't believe that therapists or counselors are a panacea but one way or another, you have to get him on board with fully participating in devising (and enforcing, whenever it falls on him) a coherent shared parenting strategy. If he won't then you don't really have a co-parent or a full partner in your relationship.
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:50 PM on February 28, 2019 [16 favorites]
I was always the bad guy in enforcing rules, homework before playtime, etc. I was the one that wanted to give books as presents instead of candy or toys. I set the television time limits and bed times.
It got damn old being the bad guy or the unfun one, and I resent that I was put into that position. BUT. There were other things that my husband did that made it possible for me to continue raising the kids with him. You didn't mention anything your husband does that makes him useful to have around.
I think if he was willing to wait it out that the kids would be old enough to know a little better and the undermining wouldn't be so severe.
Honey, don't kid yourself. The kids might be old enough to know better, but they won't, because they know they don't have to, and that if you give a direct order, Good Ol' Dad will cover them and make excuses for them when they disobey you. The undermining will get even worse the older they get.
I've talked to my kids, and all four of them agree that they could see now that it was hard on me, and their dad didn't do them any favors by being 'Mr. Nice Guy' all the time.
It seems that you married a guy that won't listen to you, and he screams and bangs and keeps kicking things to the point that you can't THINK!! Tell him to leave you alone and quit yammering at you. Get him to back off, then wait a couple months. You need the breathing room to make a decision. You'll know what direction to go then.
You are now happier without him, and the kids seem to be thriving. I think in your shoes, I'd sit tight. Your gut sense tells you to give it distance and quiet, and I think you are 100% right.
posted by BlueHorse at 7:28 PM on February 28, 2019 [6 favorites]
It got damn old being the bad guy or the unfun one, and I resent that I was put into that position. BUT. There were other things that my husband did that made it possible for me to continue raising the kids with him. You didn't mention anything your husband does that makes him useful to have around.
I think if he was willing to wait it out that the kids would be old enough to know a little better and the undermining wouldn't be so severe.
Honey, don't kid yourself. The kids might be old enough to know better, but they won't, because they know they don't have to, and that if you give a direct order, Good Ol' Dad will cover them and make excuses for them when they disobey you. The undermining will get even worse the older they get.
I've talked to my kids, and all four of them agree that they could see now that it was hard on me, and their dad didn't do them any favors by being 'Mr. Nice Guy' all the time.
It seems that you married a guy that won't listen to you, and he screams and bangs and keeps kicking things to the point that you can't THINK!! Tell him to leave you alone and quit yammering at you. Get him to back off, then wait a couple months. You need the breathing room to make a decision. You'll know what direction to go then.
You are now happier without him, and the kids seem to be thriving. I think in your shoes, I'd sit tight. Your gut sense tells you to give it distance and quiet, and I think you are 100% right.
posted by BlueHorse at 7:28 PM on February 28, 2019 [6 favorites]
I don't think it's fair to him to say that you don't want a divorce/separation, but you also don't want him to live in the same country as you! If you don't want him around in your house, but he wants to be there, you have a situation where you are going to have to DTMFA.
If you are willing to try again, you could first give him an ultimatum about joining you in couples counselling and parenting classes. If he won't, or if you wouldn't be willing to live with him right now even under those circumstances, I think it's time to end your marriage. It's not that it's not possible for married people (even with kids) to happily live apart, but it's got to be a joint decision, not one partner wanting to keep the other from joining the family.
And you talk about this as 'just until the kids are a little older'. That sounds like years! I don't think it's okay to pressure him to stay away from his family for years (or even months) if he doesn't want to.
posted by lollusc at 8:37 PM on February 28, 2019 [2 favorites]
If you are willing to try again, you could first give him an ultimatum about joining you in couples counselling and parenting classes. If he won't, or if you wouldn't be willing to live with him right now even under those circumstances, I think it's time to end your marriage. It's not that it's not possible for married people (even with kids) to happily live apart, but it's got to be a joint decision, not one partner wanting to keep the other from joining the family.
And you talk about this as 'just until the kids are a little older'. That sounds like years! I don't think it's okay to pressure him to stay away from his family for years (or even months) if he doesn't want to.
posted by lollusc at 8:37 PM on February 28, 2019 [2 favorites]
If you really don't want to DTMFA, you probably need to find a narrative where he isn't entirely the bad guy, a way of defining the problem such that you two are on the same team resolving the challenge. I think defining this as "we have different parenting styles -- how do we bring them into alignment?" could be that way. That may be more successful than asking him to back you up in your style. Being on the same page probably shouldn't be done by having him always come over to your page, though your examples sound sensible. I also wonder about the possibility of shifting the workload so that he learns a little bit more of this by experience and you're a little less at the end of your rope.
posted by slidell at 9:02 PM on February 28, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by slidell at 9:02 PM on February 28, 2019 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: I wish I would have chosen different examples and I will try to clarify one more time just in case anyone else comes on to answer. I think that there is a difference between permissive parenting and just passive parenting. Like, you are not being a responsible parent or member of society if you allow your un potty trained children to remove their swimming trunks at the pool/beach because they feel like it and you don't like to say no- and they end up urinating repeatedly 6 inches from other people's picnic blankets complete with sandwiches. Or throwing sand on the other picnic blankets and at each other and me. That stuff happened ALL the time and repeatedly. I think if your children end up missing out on basic normal fun and social relationships because their parents don't give them boundaries then that isn't a different style, its neglect.
Children need consistency as a basic need. I also did not gang up on him with the parenting coach, he didn't engage with it from the start, he described it as something "I" would really benefit from... No conversation about any of this has been productive. I love my husband and I know I am not perfect and I miss him. Hes a loving father, funny and I am absolutely gutted that this has happened in our marriage.
posted by flink at 4:36 AM on March 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
Children need consistency as a basic need. I also did not gang up on him with the parenting coach, he didn't engage with it from the start, he described it as something "I" would really benefit from... No conversation about any of this has been productive. I love my husband and I know I am not perfect and I miss him. Hes a loving father, funny and I am absolutely gutted that this has happened in our marriage.
posted by flink at 4:36 AM on March 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
If you love him and want to stay married to him, then I think you have to act from your love and not your frustration. From what you write I think it’s entirely reasonable to insist on family therapy as a condition of his moving back to your household. I think everyone would benefit! Just like with kids I think you need to do this with compassion. Tell him you love him and want to make this work as a team, but it cannot work if he won’t go to therapy with you and take it seriously. Be kind but firm, the way you would with your older kid. Just like with kids I think you need to give him some benefit of the doubt - you are with them all day, and you have parenting skills he clearly doesn’t; what would it look like if you taught him better skills? - and just like with kids you also have to give him a voice - nobody’s arguing that kids should be able to pee freely into the wind, but there are places for legitimate disagreement and I still do not have the sense that you understand that. Perhaps a therapist can help you make some explicit agreements.
I have to say that it’s possible he won’t keep those agreements. He may be in a headspace where he sees so much stress at work that he’s just not willing to engage in any conflict at home so he avoids discipline (of course causing worse conflict with you, but again: sometimes people who feel trapped make bad choices) and if that’s so he might just bail. But I think it’s worth trying, if you want to save your marriage. Simply yelling at him that he’s doing it wrong (even if he is, and he probably is) is not going to work on him any better than it would on your children.
posted by eirias at 5:00 AM on March 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
I have to say that it’s possible he won’t keep those agreements. He may be in a headspace where he sees so much stress at work that he’s just not willing to engage in any conflict at home so he avoids discipline (of course causing worse conflict with you, but again: sometimes people who feel trapped make bad choices) and if that’s so he might just bail. But I think it’s worth trying, if you want to save your marriage. Simply yelling at him that he’s doing it wrong (even if he is, and he probably is) is not going to work on him any better than it would on your children.
posted by eirias at 5:00 AM on March 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
I thought of you overnight, OP, and I read the anger and despair in your update. Parenting kids is hard, parenting kids under 5 is worse. One of yours has already had a terrible experience in preschool. You are in the thick of it. And your partner is consistently making decisions not to engage and which make your life harder. That’s huge.
I posted earlier about parenting styles because my husband and I were in a similar dynamic. I wish I could download to you and to him our shared experience. What I can express to you is that there’s a truth here on both ends. You fully deserve better support. And yet even your peeing example, which must have been pretty mortifying, made me feel so hard for the way I felt when my kids were similarly aged and how I feel now. I was you. And I do think my work and consistency and discipline was and is important.
And yet...now that my kids are 7 and 13, and I work with many kids, some of them troubled, every day, I see also that there’s big stuff, and small stuff. I wish I had laughed more. I am in the process of getting what may be a cancer diagnosis, and my desire for my kids should it be serious (it won’t be I think) is not, honestly, that I leave them with good manners...but that I leave them with good values, joy, and love. That’s it..
And being angry at your husband all the time is the opposite of that. In our home, I realized this morning, the conversation changed when we shifted from rules to values. I was able to express to my husband that get-off-your-butt parenting was important to me because I wanted our kids to be kind and courteous, to be explicitly taught respect and compassion. My husband and I didn’t, still don’t, always agree on where the fine lines fall. But I have been able to turn to him and say “is what you’re doing teaching our kids to take responsibility?” And he’s been able to turn to me and say “are you missing out on the joy?”
The kids I see, and I see troubled well-off kids fairly often, who are most in trouble aren’t the ones with fuzzy family rules. It’s the kids who live with tension and a lack of...love and generosity in the home. Where there’s no room to screw up. Where the emphasis is on what will people think. I can’t tell from your posts where you are on this but I do think whether you separate or not the contempt (which may go both ways) is toxic.
So if you want to make it work, and you may not and that’s fine, I think you have to come to terms with a few things. First, he’s their dad. This is at least in part who he is. If you divorce, they we’ll go spend 3 weeks in rock throwing, pee on the sand land regardless. That’s how it is. Second, all the stress (it sounds like besides all the financial and geographical upheaval your child was abused!) has been crazy...for both of you. You both may have dug in to positions that aren’t really where your family needs to end up. Third, if you want a partner, you are the person who can de-escalate first.
If you can, I think you should try to get a “vacation” together where you have a few hours of childcare whether that’s family or a resort with a kids’ camp, for a few days. I think you should take some days to ask him what values you want to hold dear as a family. Following through on commitments? Respect? Kindness? Industry? And then ask him how he will lead your children to gain the habits and perspective to live those values..and how you will together. Come up with some short term and long term goals. Don’t yell, if you can. Don’t plead. Just tell him it’s untenable and you love him...but he’s checked out on his responsibility to be a leader for the kids.
Be prepared to hear what he needs from you. Our family works best when we are both contributing economically, for example. I won’t write a book on that but it was a pretty key decision. Be ready to really, really align your family life with whatever values you come up with.
This is so much work for you when you are burnt out! But following rules isn’t working. He sounds burnt out too.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:38 AM on March 1, 2019 [11 favorites]
I posted earlier about parenting styles because my husband and I were in a similar dynamic. I wish I could download to you and to him our shared experience. What I can express to you is that there’s a truth here on both ends. You fully deserve better support. And yet even your peeing example, which must have been pretty mortifying, made me feel so hard for the way I felt when my kids were similarly aged and how I feel now. I was you. And I do think my work and consistency and discipline was and is important.
And yet...now that my kids are 7 and 13, and I work with many kids, some of them troubled, every day, I see also that there’s big stuff, and small stuff. I wish I had laughed more. I am in the process of getting what may be a cancer diagnosis, and my desire for my kids should it be serious (it won’t be I think) is not, honestly, that I leave them with good manners...but that I leave them with good values, joy, and love. That’s it..
And being angry at your husband all the time is the opposite of that. In our home, I realized this morning, the conversation changed when we shifted from rules to values. I was able to express to my husband that get-off-your-butt parenting was important to me because I wanted our kids to be kind and courteous, to be explicitly taught respect and compassion. My husband and I didn’t, still don’t, always agree on where the fine lines fall. But I have been able to turn to him and say “is what you’re doing teaching our kids to take responsibility?” And he’s been able to turn to me and say “are you missing out on the joy?”
The kids I see, and I see troubled well-off kids fairly often, who are most in trouble aren’t the ones with fuzzy family rules. It’s the kids who live with tension and a lack of...love and generosity in the home. Where there’s no room to screw up. Where the emphasis is on what will people think. I can’t tell from your posts where you are on this but I do think whether you separate or not the contempt (which may go both ways) is toxic.
So if you want to make it work, and you may not and that’s fine, I think you have to come to terms with a few things. First, he’s their dad. This is at least in part who he is. If you divorce, they we’ll go spend 3 weeks in rock throwing, pee on the sand land regardless. That’s how it is. Second, all the stress (it sounds like besides all the financial and geographical upheaval your child was abused!) has been crazy...for both of you. You both may have dug in to positions that aren’t really where your family needs to end up. Third, if you want a partner, you are the person who can de-escalate first.
If you can, I think you should try to get a “vacation” together where you have a few hours of childcare whether that’s family or a resort with a kids’ camp, for a few days. I think you should take some days to ask him what values you want to hold dear as a family. Following through on commitments? Respect? Kindness? Industry? And then ask him how he will lead your children to gain the habits and perspective to live those values..and how you will together. Come up with some short term and long term goals. Don’t yell, if you can. Don’t plead. Just tell him it’s untenable and you love him...but he’s checked out on his responsibility to be a leader for the kids.
Be prepared to hear what he needs from you. Our family works best when we are both contributing economically, for example. I won’t write a book on that but it was a pretty key decision. Be ready to really, really align your family life with whatever values you come up with.
This is so much work for you when you are burnt out! But following rules isn’t working. He sounds burnt out too.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:38 AM on March 1, 2019 [11 favorites]
Disclaimer: parent of two adult daughters, married for the last 38 years.
Parenting. Is. Stressful. And it takes a lot out of a marriage. It introduces you to a different spouse, and a different you.
If you have different parenting styles (disciplinarian, authoritative, permissive, uninvolved) it can be hard, so very hard. It speaks to your sense of self-worth, because this is your child and you want the best for each of them.
Also -- each child is different. What works for one may not work for the other. My oldest daughter did not get her driver's license until she was an adult (which was a good thing). Her sister, three years younger, got her driver's permit at fifteen and was just fine with taking the car out with a licensed friend.
You can't predict these things, although you may get a sense of how things will shake out as they get older. So actually, having the same parenting styles may be a blessing for one child, and a curse for the other.
Meanwhile, having two children under age five is a rough road in most cases. Feeling that the other parent is not pulling his share of the load is difficult. Maybe this advise will help. Hang in there.
1) Go into counseling for your own mental health. You deserve a good headspace. Your children deserve a parent with a good headspace. Your spouse can take care of himself if he wants to, or join in if he wants to. But you take care of you, first. This is self-care, not selfishness. This is also being a good example to the kids.
2) Someone has to be the adult. Congratulations! Whether you will get some help in the future (when the children are "easier") is... unknown. But don't be afraid to be the adult and set the parameters for how your children behave and how your home is run. You live there. You are doing the work. You are not the babysitter.
If your spouse wants to participate, let him. Insist on a "Dad's rules" day. Do it once a week (weekends are nice.) Give him free reign to set the boundaries, if any. If it's too hard to watch, let him know that you will be taking a break (not undermining him) and will see him back at home after your shopping trip with your friends.
And then he can deal with the children's behavior. He who has the authority has the responsibility. Actions and consequences.
It may take bringing your friend or a family member inside to say, "Good grief! What happened here?" for him to realize that it's not you. It's him.
There are "Dad's rules" and there are "Mom's rules" and children are smart enough to know the difference, just like they know "school rules" and "house of worship rules" and "visiting at a friend's house rules."
I'd love to tell you that all parents work together in a seamless unit, but often we don't. Yours seems like an extreme case, but not completely unusual.
3) Red and Blue Rules -- if no one is bleeding and no one is turning blue, it's not a crisis.
4) Parent's mantra -- this, too, shall pass.
5) Corollary to Parent's mantra -- children change as they get older, sometimes drastically. Enjoy this phase while you can.
6) Hugs and kisses -- every day. Say "I love you" -- every day. Remember that someday you will be waiting for that text/phone call/ Skype -- so make the most of now. I sent some messages before sunrise the other day to my daughters, ages 32 and 29, letting them know that the roads were icy and to be careful driving to and from work (one works a night shift). They sent messages back, making sure that we were okay and asking if we needed anything while they were out and about anyway.
Truly, I'm an old-school disciplinarian. I'd rather get a handle on behavior before the kids are in public school. Once they are as tall as you are, it's a bit too late to get their attention and insist that you have the majority rule, and sometimes the only vote, in how they behave.
But, your spouse is not the babysitter, either.
posted by TrishaU at 6:40 AM on March 1, 2019 [6 favorites]
Parenting. Is. Stressful. And it takes a lot out of a marriage. It introduces you to a different spouse, and a different you.
If you have different parenting styles (disciplinarian, authoritative, permissive, uninvolved) it can be hard, so very hard. It speaks to your sense of self-worth, because this is your child and you want the best for each of them.
Also -- each child is different. What works for one may not work for the other. My oldest daughter did not get her driver's license until she was an adult (which was a good thing). Her sister, three years younger, got her driver's permit at fifteen and was just fine with taking the car out with a licensed friend.
You can't predict these things, although you may get a sense of how things will shake out as they get older. So actually, having the same parenting styles may be a blessing for one child, and a curse for the other.
Meanwhile, having two children under age five is a rough road in most cases. Feeling that the other parent is not pulling his share of the load is difficult. Maybe this advise will help. Hang in there.
1) Go into counseling for your own mental health. You deserve a good headspace. Your children deserve a parent with a good headspace. Your spouse can take care of himself if he wants to, or join in if he wants to. But you take care of you, first. This is self-care, not selfishness. This is also being a good example to the kids.
2) Someone has to be the adult. Congratulations! Whether you will get some help in the future (when the children are "easier") is... unknown. But don't be afraid to be the adult and set the parameters for how your children behave and how your home is run. You live there. You are doing the work. You are not the babysitter.
If your spouse wants to participate, let him. Insist on a "Dad's rules" day. Do it once a week (weekends are nice.) Give him free reign to set the boundaries, if any. If it's too hard to watch, let him know that you will be taking a break (not undermining him) and will see him back at home after your shopping trip with your friends.
And then he can deal with the children's behavior. He who has the authority has the responsibility. Actions and consequences.
It may take bringing your friend or a family member inside to say, "Good grief! What happened here?" for him to realize that it's not you. It's him.
There are "Dad's rules" and there are "Mom's rules" and children are smart enough to know the difference, just like they know "school rules" and "house of worship rules" and "visiting at a friend's house rules."
I'd love to tell you that all parents work together in a seamless unit, but often we don't. Yours seems like an extreme case, but not completely unusual.
3) Red and Blue Rules -- if no one is bleeding and no one is turning blue, it's not a crisis.
4) Parent's mantra -- this, too, shall pass.
5) Corollary to Parent's mantra -- children change as they get older, sometimes drastically. Enjoy this phase while you can.
6) Hugs and kisses -- every day. Say "I love you" -- every day. Remember that someday you will be waiting for that text/phone call/ Skype -- so make the most of now. I sent some messages before sunrise the other day to my daughters, ages 32 and 29, letting them know that the roads were icy and to be careful driving to and from work (one works a night shift). They sent messages back, making sure that we were okay and asking if we needed anything while they were out and about anyway.
Truly, I'm an old-school disciplinarian. I'd rather get a handle on behavior before the kids are in public school. Once they are as tall as you are, it's a bit too late to get their attention and insist that you have the majority rule, and sometimes the only vote, in how they behave.
But, your spouse is not the babysitter, either.
posted by TrishaU at 6:40 AM on March 1, 2019 [6 favorites]
Seconding warriorqueen and eirias.
Also (I can't believe I left this one out) -- sense of humor. God, without that, parenting is brutal.
posted by TrishaU at 6:50 AM on March 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
Also (I can't believe I left this one out) -- sense of humor. God, without that, parenting is brutal.
posted by TrishaU at 6:50 AM on March 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
Just wanted to say I appreciate your update. The distinction between permissive and passive is one I try to keep in mind for my-(conflict avoidant, laissez faire)-self. I can let my kids have freedom in some instances where other parents would simply say No (tearing off petals), but I can't do it by checking out and letting chaos take over; I have to be actively teaching them (following them around the yard talking about how the petals help bees find the flowers and certainly no more than one inch away as they approach the bridal display explaining that these aren't our flowers and we cannot touch them). Anyway, all to say, I think what you say in your update might be part of what will help you communicate better to your husband. Couples counseling seems like it would be very helpful.
posted by slidell at 9:12 PM on March 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by slidell at 9:12 PM on March 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
First things: You cannot change him. You cannot make him change; you cannot make him want to change. Be aware that your end result here may have to be DTMFA, because if he is unwilling to change, he will continue to teach the kids that you are the rules-inflicting ogre they have to put up with, and he is the fun parent. He will continue to insist that you make all the rules and then refuse to allow you to enforce them, teaching the kids both that you (and by extension, all women) have no real authority, and that the way to get around troublesome rules is to make friends with someone who lets you break them.
It will not matter how much you and he care for each other when there aren't kids around, because there will always be kids to deal with, even if they're not in the house right this moment.
Next: You need to talk with him. This is going to be hard, because there is never, ever a time when you're calm and rational and not irritated or worried about the kids, and that's before getting into his tendency to dodge any uncomfortable discussions. You need to confront him with: Something needs to change OR THIS MARRIAGE IS OVER. And he's going to take that as a threat (which it is), and will react badly. He may yell; he may get cold and refuse to talk with you; he may tell the kids that you want him gone forever - expect dirty tricks.
Unfortunately, it's going to be your job to keep pushing him; he obviously does not want to change. He needs to become aware that you will not let him keep the relationship he has now, where he does what he enjoys and you have all the hard work of setting boundaries for the kids, which he ignores when they're inconvenient for him. If you want to fix the marriage - and as mentioned, that may not be possible - it's going to take a lot of exhausting, frustrating work. Only you can decide if that's worth it.
DO NOT let him convince you that "you're blowing it out of proportion" or "it doesn't matter if the kid sleeps to music." It doesn't (my kids slept to music a lot) - but it DOES matter that he doesn't support your decisions. He's not treating you like a partner; he's treating you like the hired help who makes rules until they bother him.
DO NOT accept, "I only agreed to that to get you to shut up about it" as an excuse for not following through. It doesn't matter why he agreed; the point is, he told you he'd do something, and then didn't - he lied to you. You've got 16-ish years more parenting together; you can't do that on a foundation of constant lies.
If you can convince him that it's worth the effort to change himself to have a family, to be part of raising his kids - then you get to have (sigh) uncomfortable discussions about parenting styles and rules for the kids, and how to enforce those, and how to deal with disagreements when they pop up. (Kid asks, "can we get hamburgers tonight," and one of you immediately says "yes" and the other says "no" - kids will figure out really fast how to nudge the answer in the direction they want.)
There is no end to it, it never stops. And when I try to make things better, it doesn't work. I miss the man that I first me[t].
I'm sorry, but that man is gone. You don't get him back. You get someone new, someone who has to juggle job and family and try to be the fun dad AND the dad who requires following rules. He may not know how to do that, and he may not be willing to learn.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:19 AM on March 2, 2019 [2 favorites]
It will not matter how much you and he care for each other when there aren't kids around, because there will always be kids to deal with, even if they're not in the house right this moment.
Next: You need to talk with him. This is going to be hard, because there is never, ever a time when you're calm and rational and not irritated or worried about the kids, and that's before getting into his tendency to dodge any uncomfortable discussions. You need to confront him with: Something needs to change OR THIS MARRIAGE IS OVER. And he's going to take that as a threat (which it is), and will react badly. He may yell; he may get cold and refuse to talk with you; he may tell the kids that you want him gone forever - expect dirty tricks.
Unfortunately, it's going to be your job to keep pushing him; he obviously does not want to change. He needs to become aware that you will not let him keep the relationship he has now, where he does what he enjoys and you have all the hard work of setting boundaries for the kids, which he ignores when they're inconvenient for him. If you want to fix the marriage - and as mentioned, that may not be possible - it's going to take a lot of exhausting, frustrating work. Only you can decide if that's worth it.
DO NOT let him convince you that "you're blowing it out of proportion" or "it doesn't matter if the kid sleeps to music." It doesn't (my kids slept to music a lot) - but it DOES matter that he doesn't support your decisions. He's not treating you like a partner; he's treating you like the hired help who makes rules until they bother him.
DO NOT accept, "I only agreed to that to get you to shut up about it" as an excuse for not following through. It doesn't matter why he agreed; the point is, he told you he'd do something, and then didn't - he lied to you. You've got 16-ish years more parenting together; you can't do that on a foundation of constant lies.
If you can convince him that it's worth the effort to change himself to have a family, to be part of raising his kids - then you get to have (sigh) uncomfortable discussions about parenting styles and rules for the kids, and how to enforce those, and how to deal with disagreements when they pop up. (Kid asks, "can we get hamburgers tonight," and one of you immediately says "yes" and the other says "no" - kids will figure out really fast how to nudge the answer in the direction they want.)
There is no end to it, it never stops. And when I try to make things better, it doesn't work. I miss the man that I first me[t].
I'm sorry, but that man is gone. You don't get him back. You get someone new, someone who has to juggle job and family and try to be the fun dad AND the dad who requires following rules. He may not know how to do that, and he may not be willing to learn.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:19 AM on March 2, 2019 [2 favorites]
If I try to discuss a consequence he just grunts.
honest to god I could be talked around to forgiving someone I loved for all kinds of betrayals and frustrations, but I would leave a man over this the same day and not ever look back. being treated not as a person he disagrees with but as a female thing that makes noises is not something I would have any interest in trying to "deal with." if you are being literal, and I think you are.
maybe therapy can fix this, but you will have to have an extraordinary amount of faith in the process.
one minor thing I don't understand is why he shouldn't carry the kids just because you physically can't. that wasn't a discipline issue; you said no because you couldn't, but he could. and some of the rest of it, you could compromise on if he cared to; he could make a serious case for doing things his way all the time if he valued consistency the way you do.
but really, that doesn't matter. love and respect are two different things. he does not sound like a man who wants his wife to respect him. you could give him yet another opportunity to prove himself, I suppose.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:03 PM on March 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
honest to god I could be talked around to forgiving someone I loved for all kinds of betrayals and frustrations, but I would leave a man over this the same day and not ever look back. being treated not as a person he disagrees with but as a female thing that makes noises is not something I would have any interest in trying to "deal with." if you are being literal, and I think you are.
maybe therapy can fix this, but you will have to have an extraordinary amount of faith in the process.
one minor thing I don't understand is why he shouldn't carry the kids just because you physically can't. that wasn't a discipline issue; you said no because you couldn't, but he could. and some of the rest of it, you could compromise on if he cared to; he could make a serious case for doing things his way all the time if he valued consistency the way you do.
but really, that doesn't matter. love and respect are two different things. he does not sound like a man who wants his wife to respect him. you could give him yet another opportunity to prove himself, I suppose.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:03 PM on March 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
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posted by flink at 1:47 PM on February 28, 2019