Sleep Tracker and brain waves - what to measure, and how?
August 21, 2015 7:37 PM Subscribe
Let's say there are three options for sleep tracking. The first is an expensive sleep study in a lab. Won't sleep anyway, in an unfamiliar bed, electrodes hooked up everywhere. The second is a "home version" of same, where the lab sends you home with a device and electrodes (also expensive). The third is some kind of smartphone-based sleep tracker. What I need to know - when measuring phases of sleep (and what the best time is to wake up, within a "window"), what is the minimum I need?
I've used a sleeptracker app for iOS which basically measures audio and uses the accelerometer to record when you shift in bed. But that doesn't measure brain state. I suppose a FitBit or similar gadget also measures pulse rate.
I want to know a few things:
I've used a sleeptracker app for iOS which basically measures audio and uses the accelerometer to record when you shift in bed. But that doesn't measure brain state. I suppose a FitBit or similar gadget also measures pulse rate.
I want to know a few things:
- What is measured in a proper lab-based sleep study?
- What is measured by a smartphone sleeptracker + FitBit? Not brain waves, so how does one know what phases of sleep one is in?
- What is the most important thing to measure when it comes to a) quality of sleep and b) what the best time window is for waking (via alarm)?
- Do I need electrodes connected to some device to properly measure brain waves?
- I don't have sleep apnea
- I don't snore
Response by poster: Thanks @selfmedicating. I tried a sleep tracker app, but didn't find its data very accurate.
posted by 4midori at 9:20 PM on August 21, 2015
posted by 4midori at 9:20 PM on August 21, 2015
1. Polysomnograms mostly measure sleep stages (EEG), respiratory effort, air flow, electrocardiogram, EMG, and blood oxygenation.
2. Phone apps are basically employing actigraphy (movement). They don't measure sleep stages even if they say they do. Take a look at this recent article from AASM: http://www.aasmnet.org/JCSM/ViewAbstract.aspx?pid=30089
3. Home sleep tests are really home apnea tests. They don't measure sleep stages. Only polysomnograms do that so yes you need electrodes on your head for that.
4. Your question leaves out some really important data but essentially if you want to find out if you're cycling through stages normally then you need a poly.
I'm a sleep medicine PA. But not your PA and this isn't medical advice.
posted by teamnap at 9:24 PM on August 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
2. Phone apps are basically employing actigraphy (movement). They don't measure sleep stages even if they say they do. Take a look at this recent article from AASM: http://www.aasmnet.org/JCSM/ViewAbstract.aspx?pid=30089
3. Home sleep tests are really home apnea tests. They don't measure sleep stages. Only polysomnograms do that so yes you need electrodes on your head for that.
4. Your question leaves out some really important data but essentially if you want to find out if you're cycling through stages normally then you need a poly.
I'm a sleep medicine PA. But not your PA and this isn't medical advice.
posted by teamnap at 9:24 PM on August 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: @teamnap: Acknowledging you're not not my PA and cannot give medical advice:
Two Qs:
- If I wanted to measure sleep stages, are there any devices I can buy and connect to my smartphone that will do this? (Electrodes included)
- Assuming one has good sleep hygiene and one is not cycling through sleep stages properly (but ruling out sleep apnea), - what is the low hanging fruit treatment for this, besides meds or melatonin?
posted by 4midori at 10:04 PM on August 21, 2015
Two Qs:
- If I wanted to measure sleep stages, are there any devices I can buy and connect to my smartphone that will do this? (Electrodes included)
- Assuming one has good sleep hygiene and one is not cycling through sleep stages properly (but ruling out sleep apnea), - what is the low hanging fruit treatment for this, besides meds or melatonin?
posted by 4midori at 10:04 PM on August 21, 2015
Best answer: 1. There is not.
2. There are other sleep disorders besides apnea that cause people to arouse from sleep, periodic limb movement disorder and circadian rhythm disorders to mention a couple. Both are treated with medication or melatonin in very specific regiments. It sounds like you have never had a sleep study before so I wouldn't be so quick to rule out sleep apnea either. I see patients regularly who swear up and down they don't have apnea who really do. Don't assume because you don't snore, aren't overweight or you've never had anyone tell you that you stop breathing at night that this definitely precludes you from some level of apnea or it's more mild cousin upper airway resistance syndrome. I have seen professional athletes who have obstructive apnea.
I would recommend going to see a sleep medicine practitioner. Your last question really should be answered in the context of your unique and personal situation. Also many sleep medicine doctors (or PAs) will prescribe a sleeping aid for a poly that won't really interfere with our data.
posted by teamnap at 2:57 AM on August 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
2. There are other sleep disorders besides apnea that cause people to arouse from sleep, periodic limb movement disorder and circadian rhythm disorders to mention a couple. Both are treated with medication or melatonin in very specific regiments. It sounds like you have never had a sleep study before so I wouldn't be so quick to rule out sleep apnea either. I see patients regularly who swear up and down they don't have apnea who really do. Don't assume because you don't snore, aren't overweight or you've never had anyone tell you that you stop breathing at night that this definitely precludes you from some level of apnea or it's more mild cousin upper airway resistance syndrome. I have seen professional athletes who have obstructive apnea.
I would recommend going to see a sleep medicine practitioner. Your last question really should be answered in the context of your unique and personal situation. Also many sleep medicine doctors (or PAs) will prescribe a sleeping aid for a poly that won't really interfere with our data.
posted by teamnap at 2:57 AM on August 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yeah, agreeing that there is no at-home option that's really going to track sleep stages effectively. The at-home sleep apnea test doesn't even detect mild sleep apnea in some cases.
I have used a FitBit to track sleep, and it does not use heart rate (at least the version I used did not). It also started coding times when I was awake as sleep so I personally didn't find it that useful.
Also, I would suggest questioning how you know you do not have apnea. There are a lot of myths out there about it, and if you're relying on one of those to tell you you don't have apnea, it is possible that you may be wrong. Not everyone with apnea snores, for one thing. I've even had a doctor (who should know better) tell me that I couldn't have apnea because I'm not morbidly obese. (Nobody told my uncle who is whip-thin and has sleep apnea!)
I second the suggestion to check in with a sleep med doc.
posted by pie ninja at 5:41 AM on August 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I have used a FitBit to track sleep, and it does not use heart rate (at least the version I used did not). It also started coding times when I was awake as sleep so I personally didn't find it that useful.
Also, I would suggest questioning how you know you do not have apnea. There are a lot of myths out there about it, and if you're relying on one of those to tell you you don't have apnea, it is possible that you may be wrong. Not everyone with apnea snores, for one thing. I've even had a doctor (who should know better) tell me that I couldn't have apnea because I'm not morbidly obese. (Nobody told my uncle who is whip-thin and has sleep apnea!)
I second the suggestion to check in with a sleep med doc.
posted by pie ninja at 5:41 AM on August 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Another home sleep tracking options is the Zeo. It has some sort of sensor you strap to your forehead which determines your sleep phase. I don't know exactly how it works though so do your own research to see if it's worthwhile.
posted by metasarah at 11:03 AM on August 23, 2015
posted by metasarah at 11:03 AM on August 23, 2015
Response by poster: @metasarah:
Mainly for other readers' benefit: the Zeo was discontinued a few years ago, and the company shut down.
posted by 4midori at 9:28 AM on August 24, 2015
Mainly for other readers' benefit: the Zeo was discontinued a few years ago, and the company shut down.
posted by 4midori at 9:28 AM on August 24, 2015
« Older Good interfaces for teaching the joy of exploring... | Chaise Longue, Not Chaise Litterbox. Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
What are you trying to do? The sleep lab seems mainly interested in detecting sleep apnea, because sleep apnea can lead to a lot of other problems. But that's not your issue. The smartphone app measures your movements (you set it on your mattress), and wakes you when it thinks you are in a light sleep stage, and my experience in the last few months of using it is that it works.
My subjective experience is that the smartphone is good at detecting what phase of sleep you're in based on your movements. You really have nothing to lose by trying it out - I used a free app on a cheap motorola phone so any reasonable smartphone should work.
posted by selfmedicating at 7:51 PM on August 21, 2015