One nation [BRIEF PAUSE] with liberty and justice for all.

September 25, 2014 1:46 PM

My kindergartener's class has started learning the Pledge of Allegiance. I told him he could stay silent during the "under God" part. Am I being too strident? Would there have been a better way to handle this?

Short background: my spouse and I are atheists, but we've assured the little guy he can believe in or not believe in positively anything he likes. We've encouraged him to talk to other friends and family about what they believe and one day, when he feels he's ready, he can choose what to believe or not believe for himself. Until then, we're raising him without religion, but we're not raising him to be against it, either.

In the meantime, I'm sensitive about all of the little ways that even from a young age, kids are conditioned to be religious. So, when his class started on the Pledge of Allegiance, the "under God" part irked me a bit. I wanted him to note that he was being asked to say he believed in God, when so far, he just... doesn't. So I told him he could--quietly, without making a thing of it--skip that part when reciting the pledge.

My spouse worries that maybe I'm being overly strident and putting my issues and pet causes onto a tiny kid's back. My answer is that if I wanted to be strident, I'd tell him to refuse to say the damned thing at all, not only because of the "under God" but because I think he's way too young to be conditioned into nationalism with a recited oath whose words he scarcely understands.

To my reckoning, I chose a fairly low friction option. I wouldn't dream of making a huge stand about it in this case, simply because, even had our son decided on his own beliefs, five is waaaaaaay too young to end up in this kind of situation.

Should I have just let this go? Was there a better way?

Or, alternately, should I have raised a bigger stink?

This isn't a huge disagreement between us. (We don't really have those, generally.) It's just a topic where we're not lining up entirely and I'd like to submit the matter for your review.

posted by DirtyOldTown to Education (49 answers total)

Should I have just let this go?
No. As someone who is not religious, and whose parents respected that, thank you for doing the same. You were a good parent when you talked to you son about this.

Was there a better way?
Not that I can really think of, no.

Or, alternately, should I have raised a bigger stink?
Only make stinks when necessary. A stink would have been warranted if, for example, students were required to utter every word of the Pledge.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 1:52 PM on September 25, 2014 [23 favorites]

Strident is not just remaining silent for "under God", but going right ahead to the next line, and finishing before everyone else.
posted by BrashTech at 1:54 PM on September 25, 2014 [15 favorites]

I stopped saying the under god part when I was seven because I was thinking about this stuff, and I had absolutely zero encouragement from parents or teachers about thinking about that kind of stuff. If I had been encouraged by literally any adult in my life to think critically about god or religion, I probably would have stopped saying it even sooner. (Kind of a weird kid maybe.)

Anyway, I think it's entirely fine as a parent for you to explain to your kid why you don't say it, and maybe even explain that before [1960-whatever] the Pledge didn't have under god in it at all. I think it's also fine to go through the Pledge and actually explain to the kid what it means to pledge allegiance and so forth. It's great to constantly remind kids to think about the words they say and remind them that they have options, and creating a culture of openness in the family about difficult topics is great to start early. (My dad did a pretty good job about doing that with me but didn't come near the religion topic with a 10 foot pole for reasons of family harmony.)

Trust me, your kid will eventually get questions from classmates about why mom and dad don't go to church or pray, and it's just nice to be open about it to destigmatize atheism and nonbelieving as much as possible.
posted by phunniemee at 1:54 PM on September 25, 2014 [17 favorites]

I stopped saying those two words in middle school. By high school I was staying seated. It was my idea. I think if someone had told me to stop, unprompted, I wouldn't have appreciated the act of civil disobedience (hey, I grew up in Alabama) as much. I think you're taking the right path, but I'd make it more of a suggestion.
posted by supercres at 1:54 PM on September 25, 2014 [3 favorites]

I think your solution is great. I think it's good to teach kids how to have (how to take?) agency like that--it's something he can do quietly and that affects only him, so he gets to choose for himself.
posted by needs more cowbell at 1:54 PM on September 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

I think just pausing there is absolutely fine. I still have to recite the pledge regularly as my work involves public meetings, and I just stay silent as that phrase is recited. I've noticed other adults doing the same thing.

I'm usually thinking "under Canada" though.
posted by M.C. Lo-Carb! at 1:55 PM on September 25, 2014 [51 favorites]

I think you told him the right thing. Right now he's too young to understand the meaning (or controversy) behind all of it, and odds are he's just going to say "under god" just because that's what they're doing. I think the deeper conversations can happen later in life.

That said, most kindergartners pledging allegiance are actually pronouncing it thusly:

forunichundergaaindivisiblewithleebeeteenjust us for all.
posted by Think_Long at 1:56 PM on September 25, 2014 [5 favorites]

I would say that whatever you tell him is probably trite and he's just replacing mumbling "under God" with whatever you told him if he's asked about it, but, it's not excessive. People have their kids opt out of the pledge, sex ed, retreats and all kinds of other school events and procedures. It's their right and it doesn't matter whether it makes him stick out a bit.
posted by michaelh at 1:57 PM on September 25, 2014

Did he ask you about it? I waited until my kids came to me with Questions and when they did, we had a discussion about what god was and why that word is in the pledge. Ultimately my kids decided to leave that part out and then eventually both decided to stop saying the pledge entirely (that was a fun phone call from the principal).

So yeah, you maybe jumped the gun a little but the cat's out of the bag now so you might as well go with it. In the grand scheme of things, this rates pretty near "non-event" as far as I'm concerned, though, in that you didn't tell him to scream, "THERE IS NO GOD, YOU SHEEPLE!!" so I think you're okay.
posted by cooker girl at 1:58 PM on September 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

Response by poster: And FWIW, I've previously covered my son's beliefs on the blue.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:58 PM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

I think you did the right thing, as long as you're true to your word that you won't be mad at or disappointed in him IF he decides that he does believe in god, and wants to say the words.
posted by jbickers at 1:58 PM on September 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

FWIW, I've previously covered my son's beliefs on the blue.

Well, then, as long as he doesn't say "one nation, under cowboys." Because that would probably tap a WHOLE nother keg of worms.
posted by dlugoczaj at 2:01 PM on September 25, 2014 [9 favorites]

Just anecdotal:

This was a huge source of friction between my parents, one deeply religious and one deeply atheist. Not to mention, we lived in a very small town culture where fitting in, in terms of religion and patriotism, was very important (it was during the Cold War). So one parent was really worried about what kind of "not fitting in" I would broadcast with staying silent, as well as the religious thing. I was too young to appreciate the argument, even though like the other commentators, I much appreciated it later.

My parents compromised by giving me another set of words: wonder, awed. They then explained to me the meaning behind these awesome words, how important it is to have curiosity and appreciate the world as a person and as a nation. For years I thought those were the actual words. Nobody ever said anything, and then I was old enough to ask about it and have the discussion.
posted by barchan at 2:04 PM on September 25, 2014 [16 favorites]

At a certain age, I began to omit the "under God" part and the "with justice for all" part because I could not in good conscience affirm that those things were true. No bad things have yet befallen me.
posted by karbonokapi at 2:07 PM on September 25, 2014 [6 favorites]

This random stranger's two cents: If you brought it up with him unprompted, unnecessary and more strident that I would be. If he asked you about it, laudable behavior.
posted by pseudonick at 2:09 PM on September 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

Maybe you could instruct the whole of the class to say the original Pledge of Allegiance.

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Alternatively, there is the one originally adopted by Congress in 1942.

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands; one Nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

It wasn't until 1954 that the words "under God" were added.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 2:09 PM on September 25, 2014 [5 favorites]

The Pledge of Allegiance is quite a strange made-up ritual for a democratic nation to have to begin with, and the "under god" portion (officially added only in the 50s, and then just because President Eisenhower happened to be newly and enthusiastically religious when the proposed amendment reached his desk) specifically has been the subject of many legal challenges and court rulings. Officially, saying the Pledge at all or even standing up for it is not compulsory.

In practice, though, you get cases like the one you linked. I agree with your spouse that for a kindergartner it's important to be thoughtful in how you frame this, and would add that for 5-year-olds the Pledge ritual is really about teaching kids to follow rules and be part of a community than anything else.

Overall, though, I think you're in the clear. I would go on to address the other considerations though and have a little teaching moment tailored to his age - no one can make you say something you don't believe in, other people's beliefs are just as important as yours, blah blah blah.
posted by peachfuzz at 2:12 PM on September 25, 2014 [4 favorites]

I figured out what was bothering me. What he really needs from you is to know that it's okay to omit whatever part of the Pledge that he wants to; that's one area where he doesn't need to do exactly what the teacher tells him. Draw the distinction.

By the time I stopped saying it, I could stick up for myself to a teacher (usually a sub) or a classmate who asked me why (or worse; remember: Alabama). I wouldn't wish that on a kindergartener; knowing it's okay and discussing it with you versus being able to tell a teacher he doesn't want to say it and doesn't have to are two very different things.
posted by supercres at 2:13 PM on September 25, 2014 [4 favorites]

I am not religious in anyway. I have not been to Temple in 30 years I guess. Our kids were brought up without religion. When asked their religion, my kids always say "none" or write N/A. I tell you this as way of background so you can take my opinion for what it is worth, one man's opinion.

I think for a 5 or 6 year old kindergartner who likely doesn't understand the real meaning of any of the pledge of allegiance, you went too far. The most I would have explained to my kids when they were that age was to tell them that some people don't say the "under god" part because they don't believe in it. I would have left it up to them to draw their own conclusions.

Quite frankly, the under god part is only one small part that deserves more scrutiny. "With liberty and justice for all"? Even this aged white male knows that part is not quite accurate. My point is I think it leads to a discussion on saying the pledge at all or do you stand respectfully and silently when other say it.

I think all of these questions are important to discuss with your children, but kindergarten in not the age. Likely, he is just memorizing some words and repeating them without contemplating the meaning of them. Give him a few more years.

But, since you already did discuss it, I think it is fine, no harm done.
posted by 724A at 2:16 PM on September 25, 2014 [5 favorites]

As a kid, albeit a Jewish one, I ALWAYS omitted 'under G-d' in the pledge. I knew it was added in during Eisenhower's administration so I figured it was never really meant to be there.

As long as he doesn't make a BFD about it in class, I doubt anyone will even notice.

You were 100% correct in offering your son a non-confrontational way of dealing with these little indignities.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 2:19 PM on September 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

My spouse worries that maybe I'm being overly strident and putting my issues and pet causes onto a tiny kid's back. My answer is that if I wanted to be strident, I'd tell him to refuse to say the damned thing at all, not only because of the "under God" but because I think he's way too young to be conditioned into nationalism with a recited oath whose words he scarcely understands.

I can kind of see your spouse's point, and it's less about the magnitude of what you're encouraging your kid to do (quietly skip that part vs. sit the whole thing out), and more about whether it's a good idea to put your 5-year-old in the position of fighting that fight himself rather than advocating on his behalf like you would probably do for other things that you felt weren't appropriate to be happening in his classroom. If he were an 8-year-old or a 12-year-old or a teenager, it would be more straightforward to me, because the process of raising a kid is to slowly have them take on more responsibility for advocating for themselves over time. Five seems awfully young, though.

If it were me, and I had a problem with something going on in my kindergartner's class, I think I'd talk to the principal rather than encourage my kid to figure out how to navigate it himself (and probably would do the reverse by the time the kid was 14). I dunno, 5 years old is pretty young and I could easily see them feeling caught between the path that would make their parent happy and pleasing their teacher. A lot probably depends on your kid's personality, though.
posted by iminurmefi at 2:36 PM on September 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

There's no "right" answer to this, only the answer that best reflects the values you and your partner want to impart to your child, and the level of harmony you hope to achieve between you and your spouse, and your family and your child's school and social circle.

I stopped saying the pledge around grade 5 not because I was a strident atheist (which I was!) but because I was a strident anti-nationalist. I stopped even standing for it or mouthing it or anything. I didn't argue about it either though, or encourage other kids to sit down. I feel proud of the whole experience really, and still wouldn't stand for the pledge of allegiance, and my parents wouldn't have cared had they known.

There was one time I was confronted by a very angry teacher (not mine) in middle school who basically told me to Go Back to Russia in red-faced, inflamed tones. I do understand now with the perspective of adulthood that that inflamed teacher might have had highly significant reasons for being angry at me. Perhaps he was a veteran or had lost family members to wars? Maybe he had strong feelings about kids being “defiant”. For me though, I still think it’s OK for kids to have values and stand up for them.

In any case, the answer is, do what feels right in your family and keep your child's comfort high in your priorities here.
posted by latkes at 2:37 PM on September 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

So, when his class started on the Pledge of Allegiance, the "under God" part irked me a bit.

This isn't about you, it's about him. Getting huge up on The Pledge is silly, especially with the way did it. Why not teach him about The Pledge and how that wording was added recently? Then step back and let him choose what say or not say.

Your flippant answer to your further indicates you're making this issue about you. Cut it out.

Instead have generally neutral discuisions about the subject, making it clear you love him and that he can decide whatever he wants, change his mind at anytime and you're always there to shoot the breeze with and answer any questions.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:48 PM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

Is this him directed, or you directed?

Because honestly as a kid learning The Pledge, it didn't even occur to me that "under god" was an important part of it, or that it was meaningful or politicized in any way. Of course, I grew up in a relatively devout Episcopalian family, in the Bible Belt, so god talk was a part of my life in much larger ways. But, I don't know, this just really reeks of steeping your kid in a certain ideology, and not really encouraging thought at all. Since most kids aren't really noticing "under god" in a shpiel they're really just being taught to memorize by rote and not think about at all. It reminds me a lot of the fundamentalist Christian kids I grew up around who would occasionally throw down some weirdly politicized talking point that they obviously didn't arrive at on their own, age 6.

Frankly, I would be more inclined to question the entire concept of learning The Pledge/participating in unthinking regurgitation of The Pledge, if you truly want to raise your son in a freethinking environment that leaves him free to question society's assumptions.
posted by Sara C. at 2:55 PM on September 25, 2014

Response by poster: I appreciate all of the answers, even the ones from people responding to alternate versions of this thread from parallel universes. I hope to someday visit your worlds and hope that the weather there is temperate and that the fruit is sweet and fresh.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:59 PM on September 25, 2014 [15 favorites]

Echoing pseudonick - if he asked you what to say because he was uncomfortable vowing to a god he doesn't believe in then I think this is a great compromise - he doesn't have to say anything he's not comfortable with but he's not making a big deal about it either.

However if he didn't raise the issue himself then I think it is a touch too strident. Five year olds repeating something by rote don't necessarily pay a lot of attention* or think very deeply about what they are saying. It's entirely possible this will fly under the radar but it's also possible a classmate will notice and point it out to the teacher, at which point he may find himself needing to defend a viewpoint he doesn't fully understand or even just doesn't feel strongly about himself.

If you're really irked about this, perhaps you should make a stand by speaking to his teacher directly yourself, rather than letting your son have to deal with it if/when he's spotted not fully participating.


*For the first 3-4 years of primary school I thought the grace we said before lunch went "For all ships who are about to set sail may the Lord make us truly thankful"* - It was actually "For what we are about to receive". I did think the ships were going to find the food we were being grateful for though.
posted by *becca* at 3:02 PM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

>I appreciate all of the answers, even the ones from people responding to alternate versions of this thread from parallel universes. I hope to someday visit your worlds and hope that the weather there is temperate and that the fruit is sweet and fresh.

My rural town said the second version upthread - "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands; one Nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all."

Actually I didn't even know until this moment that there was a different version, aside from the "under god" part.
posted by zug at 3:10 PM on September 25, 2014

I think telling him not to say "Under God" and not telling him to question the rest of the pledge makes the God part out to be more important than it actually is. But I don't think you're being particularly "strident." (I'm a cheerful atheist who doesn't really identify with the atheist movement.)
posted by mskyle at 3:16 PM on September 25, 2014

Response by poster: Answering a few things:

-Nope, he did not specifically ask. He did, though, pause and give us the ummmmmm, is this RIGHT? face.
-He was super-relieved and thanked us when we told him he could choose not to say that, FWIW.
-I considered going over the history of the Pledge, its original intent and wording, the significance and nature of later changes... but then I remembered he is five and doesn't give a shit.
-on the idea that I should "[make] it clear [I] love him and that he can decide whatever he wants, change his mind at anytime and [I'm] always there to shoot the breeze with and answer any questions"... I am unclear why you would view this as a counterpoint to anything I have said.
- "this really reeks of steeping your kid in a certain ideology" To be fair, it's not like I had him memorize and repeat an oath or anything. I just told him he could skip the part he didn't like in the oath someone else made him say.

As for the "making him stand out" part... well, that's the crux of the thing, right? It's about the right to honor our beliefs and our kid's versus the value of seamlessly fitting in at school. If some folks feel the latter has more value for a five year-old than the former, I hear you. I'm not sure I agree, but I understand where you're coming from.

The particular brand of atheism/nonbelief/whatever his mom and I opt for--and again, which our son currently emulates, though he spends huge chunks of time with both grandmas hearing a more spiritual/religious philosophy, so it's not as though we're pushing it hard--is cheerfully and politely acknowledging our non-belief when asked/when it comes up, then moving on. Effectively, we make a point of being such respectful, courteous, agreeable, unobtrusive, noncombative people where our atheism is concerned that you'd really have to go out of your way to start a fight with us about it. We try to make our atheism feel like it is emphatically not a big deal or a scary thing. I don't know that there's a perfect solution to how to honor that when a not-fully ideologically formed person is asked to pledge oaths to God, but I did my best.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:22 PM on September 25, 2014 [3 favorites]

BTW - Pledging allegiance to a flag is a pretty weird idea. I understand "to the nation for which it stands" that's patriotism. But to a flag?
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 3:45 PM on September 25, 2014 [4 favorites]

American atheists get a very hard time. Corr blimey your country has god baggage. Although we lived there when I was a kid I hadn't realised how controversial, rare and vulnerable atheists were there till I started reading the green.

In Australia there is no separation of church and state and they teach religious education in school. Yuck. (Now we have ethics as an alternative, sure pissed off the Christian fundamentalists. Good!)

Anyway...further to my point...I'm getting there...I think keeping silent is a perfect solution. When I was in an American elementary school in the 70s I chose to shut up through the whole thing. (It's creepy and weird and feels a bit cult-like to me as an Australian atheist.)

My parents felt no backlash and I would do the same for my kids as you are doing for your son. Explain what it is and how to avoid if if he wants to, support his decision whatever it is and keep talking about it as long/often as he wants to.

All belief systems deserve respect and atheism is a belief system. Few people question Christians raising their kids as Christians and identifying as Christians before they're able to make fully informed, mature decisions. I see no exception for atheism.

And yay you for this. You sound like a great parent and I'd do what your doing. Your spouse is unintentionally using silencing language and that always harms reasonable conversations. I wouldn't accept the "strident" analysis at all. It's bullshit. You're encouraging quite introspection and not speaking when a room full of kids are chanting. There's nothing strident there.


And seriously, move to Australia. This level of pressure (from the school, your community and media) you're feeling is a nonsense.
posted by taff at 4:06 PM on September 25, 2014 [3 favorites]

That's exactly what I taught my kids to do. (No one ever noticed.) Strident, phooey. Parents are supposed to teach their children what they believe about the world, and I like you believe that God does not exist.
posted by pH Indicating Socks at 4:10 PM on September 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

cheerfully and politely acknowledging our non-belief when asked/when it comes up, then moving on

With all due respect, explicitly teaching your son that a particular phrase in an exercise in rote memorization is scary and weird and To Be Skipped sort of flies in the face of the above.

I mean presumably you are OK with him saying "god bless you" when someone sneezes, "oh my god" as an exclamation, etc. If he were memorizing a poem and the word god was in the poem, you probably would not have him skip it in that case.
posted by Sara C. at 4:23 PM on September 25, 2014

If the pledge ended with "thank you jesus" and a jewish or muslim parent told their child they didn't have to say that part, nobody would even consider accusing the parent of being too "strident". This should be no different.
posted by kiltedtaco at 4:29 PM on September 25, 2014 [4 favorites]

This is like the least big deal in the universe. There are plenty of TEACHERS who skip saying the "under God" part once they've taught the recitation to the kids and the kids' voices can carry it. There are also plenty of kindergarteners (and older kids) who simply do not participate in the Pledge, for religious or other family reasons, who just quietly sit it out or stand but don't recite. In most places, this is utterly unremarkable, and skipping the "under God" part probably isn't even noticed.

You can say to his teacher, "Son isn't comfortable saying 'under God' during the pledge, so we told him it's okay for him to stay silent for those two words. It's not a big deal, he can say it if he wants to or not if he doesn't, but we wanted to let you know." (The only reason you might mention it to her is if they have students lead the pledge, or they "quiz" them on their memorization, or anything like that, just so she's aware.)

I mean really, as long as you're not asking the teacher to ENFORCE your child's non-participation, it isn't strident. (Like a teacher who had a 2nd grader who was a JW whose parents forbade him to say the pledge, but he wanted to, and they instructed the teacher to stop him from participating ... THAT was tough for the teacher. This is nothing!) Even getting firm about asking a teacher to RESPECT his non-participation doesn't, in my mind, count as strident because the pledge is a little patriotic ditty about being a citizen of the United States and OH HELLO NOT SAYING THE PLEDGE IS A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT. It's hardly inconveniencing anyone to refuse to participate in it. It's definitely not inconveniencing anyone to skip two words.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:46 PM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

you're doing it perfect, i always skip the "under god" part too, and nobody has ever dared confront me.

the US supreme court case of barnett v. west virginia public school district held that children in public schools need not recite the pledge at all.
posted by bruce at 5:37 PM on September 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

I stayed silent. Nobody told me to. In 3rd grade somebody noticed and called me out at recess. "You are going to hell! You are going to burn forever!" I laughed and said that I didn't believe in hell and she kicked my ass and filled my mouth with dirt. Then my teacher told me that I shouldn't talk about my views any more I didn't really have any views. I found the whole thing baffling. Hell is other people. You might want to prepare your kid for something like that.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 5:41 PM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

We might remember it wasn't Atheists that raised the first big SCOTUS sized stink about this, but the Jehova's Witnesses. I had not even heard in years till I started walking my daughter into her 1st grade classroom. I'd simply stand silently, not because I'm an Atheist, but because I don't think a nation can be "under God" any more than my pickup. The entire world, yes. One particular country? Not so much. I lean liberal Quaker if anything, so pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth or indeed a country gives me a massive stop.

When she hit third grade, she had a reading lesson about the American Revolution. It had questions like "Would you have signed the Declaration and risked your life?" - she came to me and I pointed out countries like Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and India, all former colonies, no war.

Then it asked about rights and responsibilities. We discussed freedom of speech, of religion, at which point she pops up and states she does not like saying the pledge. She doesn't like the under God part, she doesn't like the one nation part - giving the example of what happened/is happening to the Cherokee nation, for example.
And she sure didn't think that everyone got justice.

Smart young lady, thinking on her own.
posted by rudd135 at 6:02 PM on September 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

I'm saying this as a fellow atheist:

In teaching your child that he doesn't need to say religious phrases, you also need to teach him that it's okay to say them, even if they don't have the same meaning to him that they have to others.

The Pledge is what the Pledge is. You can disagree with it, you can think it's better in the original version, but that doesn't change what the words are. "Under God" is in there, for better or worse. Teach him what the phrase means, that he doesn't have to agree with it, and that it doesn't have to mean to him what it means to someone else. But the words are what the words are.

If this bothers you, I suggest you start thinking now about how he will get around using American currency...
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 7:06 PM on September 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

Teaching kids to think for themselves is always the right way to go. As long as your kid gets to decide if he wants to say it or not, I don't see any problem with giving him the option.

While it was in high school, I had history teacher who would just stand silent during the morning pledge. He made it clear that if we wanted to say it, stand silent or sit, it was our choice. We just needed to be respectful about it. Kindergarten is a bit young, yeah, but it's also never too early to start teaching kids that different people believe different things and that can be OK.

(If this is going to cause a huge conflict with the teacher, that may be another issue. But assuming you're in a fairly metropolitan suburb, I'm guessing the teacher has encountered all kinds of kids with all kinds of beliefs before. Fellow Kindergartners are pretty accepting of things, and also oblivious, so I don't find that to be a worry, personally.)
posted by darksong at 7:20 PM on September 25, 2014

I think you did just fine. FWIW, I stopped saying 'under god' in the fourth grade, and nobody's ever noticed. And I went to a bunch of schools on American military bases, too.
posted by Andrhia at 7:31 PM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

As an atheist-since-childhood, I didn't say the "under God" bit when I was younger and eventually stopped saying the whole Pledge when I was older. No one noticed (and thus, no one cared) as long as I stood etc.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:41 PM on September 25, 2014

I am an elementary school music teacher and always omit "under god" when we do the daily announcement over the intercom. FWIW.
posted by rossination at 9:09 PM on September 25, 2014

As a counter to those suggesting to wait until the kid comes along with questions before suggesting a course of action, I would suggest that it's quite common for kids to just keep this kind of stuff to themselves, stewing about it internally. I'm pretty sure that's what I would have done at that age, and I know that's exactly what I did about much more blatant stuff (e.g. being proselytized and told, along with a bunch of other little kids, that we'd all burn in hell forever if we didn't accept Jesus.) It's probably not a bad idea for the parent to broach the subject, at least.
posted by smcameron at 10:22 PM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]

If your son seemed uncomfortable saying the words, I think it's fine to tell him he doesn't have to say them. You saw that he was uncomfortable with it and responded appropriately. Some children don't know how to verbalize what's bothering them or aren't sure if it's even okay to bring it up and it's not wrong for a parent to notice that and have a conversation about it.

You're not telling him what to do, just giving him the option to do whatever he finds most comfortable. That's the opposite of strident. Strident would be filing a lawsuit against the school on his behalf. You're giving your son the option of not saying two words if he doesn't want to. You're not getting in anyone's face, calling anyone, talking to his teacher/principle/school, yelling at anyone, taking out billboards, dissing the school on Yelp, etc. That would be strident.

As an aside, I think maybe you need to read the dictionary definition of "strident" out loud to your partner, because this is not it. (MW says: expressing opinions or criticism in a very forceful and often annoying or unpleasant way.)
posted by i feel possessed at 11:07 PM on September 25, 2014 [2 favorites]

He was super-relieved and thanked us when we told him he could choose not to say that, FWIW.

Well then, there is your answer. Why would your partner not want him to have an option -- an option, not an instruction -- that relieves him of a worry?
posted by DarlingBri at 1:10 AM on September 26, 2014 [2 favorites]

Some of these responses are ridiculous. You're being told that you're "indoctrinating" him by telling him it's okay to opt out of a very small part of a ritual for indoctrination. And this is basically what always happens to atheists/non-believers/freethinkers; they're "strident" for meekly following their own conscience, while everyone else is just being normal and polite when they pile expectations, presure and demands upon you. Silently standing up for yourself is not strident.

You are being extremely supportive of your son. You're also giving him the confidence to disagree or not be comfortable with things that "everyone else is doing", when he might otherwise defualt to doubting himself.

You're son will likely thank you that you saved him a decade of thinking he was wrong about everything until he becomes more self-possessed in his teens. Offering him an option is going to make him feel a lot more in control of his life; for little kids, it often doesn't occur to them that they have options.

And yes, West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette prohibits students from being forced to participate in the pledge. I refused to stand and say it in high school, and it was a battle with about 75% of staff, even when I presented them this decision. I was (and am) and atheist, but I didn't want to use that as my argument, because the mandatory pledge issue was more important to me. That didn't seem to cut it with anyone, though. Eventually the Vice Principal called my mother, at which time she informed them that I'm an atheist, so there was a religious objection. All efforts to make me participate immediately stopped. I have never been so annoyed by winning.
posted by spaltavian at 5:38 AM on September 26, 2014 [6 favorites]

I think this is very reasonable; I do believe in God and I still think it's inappropriate to say that in the Pledge of Allegiance. I used to teach in an elementary school where we said the Pledge of Allegiance every morning and I just skipped that part by remaining silent. I think you're making an excellent choice here.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 12:10 PM on September 26, 2014

My sons are one and three and when they get around to learning Oh Canada -we live in Ontario- I'm teaching them to sing "WE keep our land, glorious and free" instead of "God keep our land" so I am in complete agreement about your decision wrt the pledge of allegiance. What's wrong with 'indoctrinating' our own kids about the separation of church and state or in assisting them in understanding that our families don't have a religion?
posted by biggreenplant at 1:00 PM on September 26, 2014