SKUH, RUDE, SCREWED
August 17, 2010 2:25 PM Subscribe
Disputing a bill with the electric company: how to estimate electric usage of heater/central air.
I have an interesting problem with my electric company. I signed up for one of those energy efficient remote control thermostats that allow the electric company to remotely cycle the central air on days where there's a heavy load. They performed the install on May 6 and all seemed well. It was a moderate May, so I hadn't noticed any problems until my next bill came in. Somehow I managed to use 4,147 KWHs leading to a total bill of around $640. It was also a little warm in the house, something I hadn't really noticed until afterwards. I jumped to the conclusion that perhaps my central air had some problems and called a local HVAC place to get it looked at and resigning myself to paying the bill. The HVAC guy "found electric heat running with A/C due to improper thermostat wiring" (direct quote from my bill) and he explained that the installers of the thermostat (representatives of the electric company) had somehow improperly set a jumper in the thermostat which caused both the heat and air to run for, I presume, 24 hours per day for the 43 days from the date of install to the date that it was fixed.
It appears that they're going determine the amount overcharged by using an estimate based on previous month's electric bills (last year's bills are unavailable as I only moved into the house in October). To further complicate matters, I had a roommate that was a bit of an energy hog that moved out in March. This means that if they go by an average of previous months, they're going to be overcharging me. In addition, this would be presuming that I meaningfully used more energy than I did because it would be assuming that I was using the central air and was able to actually enjoy it; I don't think I should be charged for the cost of running the central air when the heater was running as well causing me not to experience any benefit.
Therein lies the rub. When they come back to me with an offer to reimburse/write off an amount that I will most certainly consider inadequate, how can I make a reasonably well informed counteroffer? I would like to attempt to get an estimate of how much power was used to run the heat + central air + any associated devices (fans or the like) for 43 days at 24 hours per day. Any ideas on how I can do this? Is it as simple as looking up the draw for each of the devices, converting it to KWHs and then muliplying it by 24 hours per day and then by 43 days? Also, would it be appropriate to expect the electric company to pay the $85 fee that the HVAC company charged to fix the problem?
Any advice you could give would be appreciated. Thanks.
I have an interesting problem with my electric company. I signed up for one of those energy efficient remote control thermostats that allow the electric company to remotely cycle the central air on days where there's a heavy load. They performed the install on May 6 and all seemed well. It was a moderate May, so I hadn't noticed any problems until my next bill came in. Somehow I managed to use 4,147 KWHs leading to a total bill of around $640. It was also a little warm in the house, something I hadn't really noticed until afterwards. I jumped to the conclusion that perhaps my central air had some problems and called a local HVAC place to get it looked at and resigning myself to paying the bill. The HVAC guy "found electric heat running with A/C due to improper thermostat wiring" (direct quote from my bill) and he explained that the installers of the thermostat (representatives of the electric company) had somehow improperly set a jumper in the thermostat which caused both the heat and air to run for, I presume, 24 hours per day for the 43 days from the date of install to the date that it was fixed.
It appears that they're going determine the amount overcharged by using an estimate based on previous month's electric bills (last year's bills are unavailable as I only moved into the house in October). To further complicate matters, I had a roommate that was a bit of an energy hog that moved out in March. This means that if they go by an average of previous months, they're going to be overcharging me. In addition, this would be presuming that I meaningfully used more energy than I did because it would be assuming that I was using the central air and was able to actually enjoy it; I don't think I should be charged for the cost of running the central air when the heater was running as well causing me not to experience any benefit.
Therein lies the rub. When they come back to me with an offer to reimburse/write off an amount that I will most certainly consider inadequate, how can I make a reasonably well informed counteroffer? I would like to attempt to get an estimate of how much power was used to run the heat + central air + any associated devices (fans or the like) for 43 days at 24 hours per day. Any ideas on how I can do this? Is it as simple as looking up the draw for each of the devices, converting it to KWHs and then muliplying it by 24 hours per day and then by 43 days? Also, would it be appropriate to expect the electric company to pay the $85 fee that the HVAC company charged to fix the problem?
Any advice you could give would be appreciated. Thanks.
I wouldn't have the slightest clue of how to calculate how much you actually used. I'd ask them to wait until you had a proper month of using the a/c and basing it off of that.
As far as the service work, does your electric company provide service on the thermostats that they install? It's clear that they did it incorrectly, but they might not be willing to reimburse you for service work done with another company. If they don't provide service, it is absolutely reasonable to expect them to pay you back for the cost of fixing their shoddy installation.
posted by two lights above the sea at 2:42 PM on August 17, 2010
As far as the service work, does your electric company provide service on the thermostats that they install? It's clear that they did it incorrectly, but they might not be willing to reimburse you for service work done with another company. If they don't provide service, it is absolutely reasonable to expect them to pay you back for the cost of fixing their shoddy installation.
posted by two lights above the sea at 2:42 PM on August 17, 2010
n addition, this would be presuming that I meaningfully used more energy than I did because it would be assuming that I was using the central air and was able to actually enjoy it; I don't think I should be charged for the cost of running the central air when the heater was running as well causing me not to experience any benefit.
One thing: I'm not sure what you mean here. If they address the issue by averaging your power usage for the 3 months prior to the install on May 6th I'm not sure how it matters that your AC was blasting since May 6th. Presumably it was not running at the same time as the heater prior to May 6th.
posted by Justinian at 2:46 PM on August 17, 2010
One thing: I'm not sure what you mean here. If they address the issue by averaging your power usage for the 3 months prior to the install on May 6th I'm not sure how it matters that your AC was blasting since May 6th. Presumably it was not running at the same time as the heater prior to May 6th.
posted by Justinian at 2:46 PM on August 17, 2010
Best answer: It's more complicated than that Justinian because depending on where you are you could have more heating days than cooling days in that period. And electric heat (unless the OP has a heat pump) is only 100% efficient; any decent central air conditioner is has a COP of at least 2 and more typically 3-3.5 (IE: effectively 200-350% efficiency)
Me I'd ask them to charge me the minimum kWh consumed in any month out of the last 12. That is effectively the base line minimum of how much energy your house uses. Even if the company was not providing service to the previous occupant they or you should be able to find out how much electricity was consumed. I'd also demand they pay for the HVAC service fee (how the heck were you supposed to know to call the electric company to repair an incorrectly installed thermostat?) though I'd probably eat it if they charge me as above (mostly because I'd feel a touch foolish I hadn't notice something was wrong before getting the bill). And if you end up going to court I'd ask for depreciation on your equipment, both heater and A/C, that ran flat out for 43 days because of their mistake.
posted by Mitheral at 4:08 PM on August 17, 2010
Me I'd ask them to charge me the minimum kWh consumed in any month out of the last 12. That is effectively the base line minimum of how much energy your house uses. Even if the company was not providing service to the previous occupant they or you should be able to find out how much electricity was consumed. I'd also demand they pay for the HVAC service fee (how the heck were you supposed to know to call the electric company to repair an incorrectly installed thermostat?) though I'd probably eat it if they charge me as above (mostly because I'd feel a touch foolish I hadn't notice something was wrong before getting the bill). And if you end up going to court I'd ask for depreciation on your equipment, both heater and A/C, that ran flat out for 43 days because of their mistake.
posted by Mitheral at 4:08 PM on August 17, 2010
I think it would be easier to tally up the rest of the electrical devices you use, and try to get a baseline number from there. Lightbulbs are already rated by the Watt, so there's no need for conversions. I'd figure 50% duty cycle for the fridge.
For some anecdata, with no HVAC, an awful refrigerator that runs constantly, various lights, 2 laptops and an LCD TV, my average power consumption is 140 kWh/month.
posted by hwyengr at 4:30 PM on August 17, 2010
For some anecdata, with no HVAC, an awful refrigerator that runs constantly, various lights, 2 laptops and an LCD TV, my average power consumption is 140 kWh/month.
posted by hwyengr at 4:30 PM on August 17, 2010
Mitheral: But the price of the energy isn't the same. Gas is usually a lot cheaper than electricity per BTU.
posted by Justinian at 4:38 PM on August 17, 2010
posted by Justinian at 4:38 PM on August 17, 2010
I guess I made the assumption samsara has electric heat.
samsara do you have electric heat or gas/oil/wood heat? If it's fuel heat I'd be after the electric company to pay for the increased fuel too and I'd still be demanding to pay no more than the lowest amount over the last 12 months. If you have a heat pump then you are back to electricity powering everything and my previous comment applies.
posted by Mitheral at 8:22 PM on August 17, 2010
samsara do you have electric heat or gas/oil/wood heat? If it's fuel heat I'd be after the electric company to pay for the increased fuel too and I'd still be demanding to pay no more than the lowest amount over the last 12 months. If you have a heat pump then you are back to electricity powering everything and my previous comment applies.
posted by Mitheral at 8:22 PM on August 17, 2010
You're right; I've never had electric heat so I also just assumed. In any case I think we agree that anything but a nominal charge would be ridiculous. The average of the three lowest months minus the cost of repair would probably be my limit.
posted by Justinian at 12:25 AM on August 18, 2010
posted by Justinian at 12:25 AM on August 18, 2010
Response by poster: Thanks for all the suggestions. As for clarification, the heat is electric as well.
What I ended up doing is faxing them a letter stating that since it would be next to impossible to determine the exact amount of electricity used because of the error I proposed that we settle it by them crediting my account the difference between the amount charged and the amount I was charged for the lowest amount in the past few months. It is a little unfair towards them because I wouldn't be paying for the electricity used to cool my house during 22 days of the last month's bill (the disputed time period stretched over 3 billing periods, 5 days before the full month and 8 days into the billing period that followed the full month). I'm willing to negotiate with them if they come back with a counteroffer but I figured that fortune favors the bold and I should ask for as much back as I reasonably could in my initial offer. I also requested reimbursement on the HVAC bill.
I'll post back with the resolution, when it happens, in case it helps someone in the future having a similar problem.
posted by samsara at 1:12 PM on August 18, 2010
What I ended up doing is faxing them a letter stating that since it would be next to impossible to determine the exact amount of electricity used because of the error I proposed that we settle it by them crediting my account the difference between the amount charged and the amount I was charged for the lowest amount in the past few months. It is a little unfair towards them because I wouldn't be paying for the electricity used to cool my house during 22 days of the last month's bill (the disputed time period stretched over 3 billing periods, 5 days before the full month and 8 days into the billing period that followed the full month). I'm willing to negotiate with them if they come back with a counteroffer but I figured that fortune favors the bold and I should ask for as much back as I reasonably could in my initial offer. I also requested reimbursement on the HVAC bill.
I'll post back with the resolution, when it happens, in case it helps someone in the future having a similar problem.
posted by samsara at 1:12 PM on August 18, 2010
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Absolutely. Does that mean they will agree to do so without a fight? No idea.
Frankly, I wouldn't pay them a red cent for those 43 days until the Sheriff showed up with a judgment from a court. My only offer to them would be to forgive the $85 fee from the HVAC company in return for a zeroing out of your account balance. I *might* agree to pay a nominal amount just to get the whole ordeal over with but I sure wouldn't volunteer that information.
They screwed up. They need to be the ones to take the hit. I'd go all the way to small claims court if necessary.
posted by Justinian at 2:42 PM on August 17, 2010