Weird dynamic I always find myself in. How to stop?

April 26, 2024 9:19 AM

I’m working as part of a group, or have been asked to help a group of people with something. Everyone else seems to know what to do and springs into action. I’m not sure, so I ask someone how I can help, and people seem annoyed that I’m asking and tell me that my help isn’t needed. Then, the authority figure who assigned the work stops by and gets mad at me for slacking.

I know this probably makes it sound like I’m a really unpleasant person to work with, but I swear I’m not. People generally like me when they meet me, and I’ve always had a lot of friends. I get along with people in other group situations, but this dynamic still crops up so often and I’m baffled.

posted by wheatlets to Human Relations (25 answers total)

Is this at work or in multiple environments?
posted by warriorqueen at 9:37 AM on April 26

This is the hallmark of struggling with executive function. Does that resonate? It's hard for those of us with this challenge to look at the big picture with a lot of moving parts and understand how and where and when to jump in. To me it's a bit like the fact that I can't automatically "get" a choreographed dance and just jump in and do it - it's the same level of bafflement with how to fit into a moving structure. Others with different kind of embodied relationship to choreographed dancing would just be like "Just move your feet and turn in the direction as everyone else." Huh? Well, the same challenge applies to a project with a lot of people doing multiple tasks.
I certainly don't know how to fix this but if I am up front about my challenge people are (sometimes) (a little) (maybe) more understanding.
Also no one wants to stop and analyze the situation for us to tell us what to do. It's often better to say "Can i join you in doing XXX" for example.
posted by ojocaliente at 9:48 AM on April 26 [12 favorites]

I have this problem, I tend to be an overanalyzer (who has a son with ADHD and may have my own exec functioning issues). Generally I find myself fixated on 'is this the most important thing for me to do' or "there are two choices here, if I go down path A will it turn out that B is better/ more obvious, etc. and yikes, is someone going to yell at me or get upset.

My solution has been to try and ask verifying questions rather than vague 'what can I do' questions. "I've not volunteered here before so it looks like that area needs to be organized is that a good thing for me to do or is there something more important". "I've been putting an X next to the line in the spreadsheet when I complete the job to show it's done, is there any other information that would be valuable, etc.".

Delegating and managing take resources/time/energy and when those things are in short supply it can feel really frustrating to stop whatever you're working on to help someone else. So one way you could also help is to start some sort of list, etc. for whomever comes after you. "Good tasks on your first day", "Helpful things to know about this org", etc. (after you've done the work of course, don't focus on systems w/out first contributing or you'll be perceived as someone who just pushes paper and processes around)
posted by snowymorninblues at 10:01 AM on April 26 [7 favorites]

Are there specific tasks here you can get more familiar with so that when you ask yourself what needs to be done, you have an answer? "See what needs doing and do it" is a skill of its own, and it requires you know what done looks like. In a kitchen: are there dishes? Things to dry and put away? Things to chop? What's being cooked and what are some common things that might need doing? Do any surfaces need wiping down?
Stuff is being loaded into a moving truck: ok, where are things being staged? Is it helpful to grab boxes from point A and move them to point B? Do some of these need to be set aside to go on top? Is the stuff in this pile going, and do you want it in boxes? Those are all questions I might ask but they are more useful questions than "uh, what can I do?" because they imply that I'm paying attention and self-sufficient and actually looking for things to do - I'm not going to, like, move one box and then ask again for one more box to move, or asking just to be polite but secretly I'd prefer to sit down.

And if you see someone moving something that looks heavy you can almost always go offer to take the other end or grab a corner and help out that way, even if they didn't "need" you.
posted by Lady Li at 10:11 AM on April 26 [7 favorites]

Response by poster: Warriorqueen - it started in school, and has followed me my whole life. Work, education, volunteering, hobbies, you name it.
posted by wheatlets at 10:11 AM on April 26 [3 favorites]

I'm wondering how much of this is a "you problem" and how much is a "group management" problem. Do the groups where this happen have a project plan with clearly assigned tasks, regular meeting to check in on progress and reassign/reprioritize tasks as needed, a project manager who is leading the whole effort and making sure things happen.

When you're first asked to join a group, I think your first step should be to sit down with whoever is the project manager, group leader, chair, etc. to learn about the background of the project - what's been done so far, what are the goals, what's working well - and directly ask what tasks you can help with. If the group isn't meeting regularly to check in on status, then you should suggest that start happening.
posted by brookeb at 10:16 AM on April 26 [4 favorites]

Seconding Lady Li. Directing other people is a lot of work and others don't want to get bogged down in it; it's easier to do it themselves. So look for things to do, and if you are VERY unsure, you can say, "Is it all right if I do this thing?" instead of asking someone to create an assignment for you.

Also, while with some experienced groups this "everyone automatically does their thing" does happen, it's not common in EVERY group. So make sure you're present and paying attention when a plan of attack is developed and tasks are discussed. I've worked on teams where some people tune out during that portion and that's frustrating.
posted by metasarah at 10:19 AM on April 26 [11 favorites]

IMO — the reason they are annoyed when you ask what to do is because defining tasks, and assigning them, takes WORK. So when you ask what you should do, you are creating work for them.

If there is someone in the group who has accepted a "coordinator" type of role, formally or informally, then they've agreed to take on some of the work of assigning tasks, and you should feel free to ask them to give you things to do. But if nobody is acting as coordinator, you need to just pick something that you feel might be useful and start working on it, instead of offloading the work of picking a task onto someone else.


And I agree with the above advice that any sufficiently complex project SHOULD have a coordinator person, to avoid this type of dysfunction. But I acknowledge that's often just not the reality especially in small volunteer projects.
posted by mekily at 10:24 AM on April 26 [14 favorites]

It would help to be given a few specific situations where this has happened to you, but this sounds like instances where everyone is in ambiguous roles and there is no clear definition of who does what tasks. Otherwise, if there were some kind of system in place, you would know what to do because you had a role/skill set and an assignment provided to you.

I am often in this kind of situation as a volunteer, where say, we are setting up or setting down for an event. Someone just comes along and hand waves over the area and we are supposed to figure it out.

And a lot of times there are way too many hands for the job, and people struggle to find some kind of task they can contribute to. If I end up in this kind of situation as a volunteer, and see everything is pretty much covered, I will either a) call it a day b) or find some kind of patently useless thing to do like color coding some papers, sweeping, lining up chairs or picking up lint off the floor or whatever, just something that makes me feel like I am contributing to 'group effort and morale'. If there is a co-ordinator, and they come rushing along in a panic I may ask if I can help with what they are doing or they may ask me to stop what I am doing and help them out.

So basically, what I am saying is that in these situations, just look busy with absolutely anything even if it is meaningless. A lot of times no one really cares as long as it looks like you are engaged and wanting to be useful.
posted by nanook at 10:38 AM on April 26 [9 favorites]

When it's unclear to me where I fit in within a process because I don't see the end, I challenge myself to think of the "adjacent possible", which I see as a way to start something that I find possible to complete (usually quickly) that would then build to reveal the next step and get me/a group closer to the end. Working within a group might challenge this dynamic, but the good advice above about aligning with a coordinator to find that possible might help make the first step. Once you have a piece of the puzzle either large or small you become a necessary part of the completion.
posted by blackjack514 at 10:51 AM on April 26 [1 favorite]

I have been in volunteer situations where it can feel awkward to figure out what to do, and the coordinator person is super busy running around. I try to assess what needs to happen. Are people hanging up a sign? I go over and grab a sign and start hanging. Has the event ended? It's time to start cleaning up supplies we set up. It can feel awkward even if there's a small task, so some of this might be getting comfortable with being uncomfortable.

Then, the authority figure who assigned the work stops by and gets mad at me for slacking.
I am curious about what this looks like.
posted by bluedaisy at 10:52 AM on April 26 [3 favorites]

Warriorqueen - it started in school, and has followed me my whole life. Work, education, volunteering, hobbies, you name it.

Thanks for clarifying. If it were just a work thing, I would encourage you to think about your role and expertise and be ready to offer that perspective - like do you think "wow, we'll need a new analytics dashboard for this" then share that, but it sounds like you're looking for different help.

Three thoughts came to mind. One is, are you introverted? If so you might want to read Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking - it examines the work dynamic of how many workplaces centre extroversion in their structures, expecting people to jump in to share thoughts in a group setting over and over. There aren't really solutions per se in that book, but it might give you some insight and ideas.

The second is, group projects with not-yet-grown humans always suck. I mean ok, maybe I had one or two project in high school that were okay but in general, if you had trouble with group project dynamics through university, you can blame the educational system for putting kids in whatever situation. No one ever seems to sit down with kids and talk to them about how to form a group, assign roles, explain stuff, etc. It may be you're getting nervous and shut down because of bad formative experiences.

The third is, since you know this about yourself, getting proactive about it as a group is forming would be a good idea. Some strategies might be:

- ask for information in advance where possible.
- take a general role if you can - for example, note taker if it's a written project, cleanup crew if it's an event, that kind of thing.
- pick the busiest person and ask if you can help them specifically, like if someone has a mound of potatoes, say, can I help you peel them?
posted by warriorqueen at 11:15 AM on April 26 [4 favorites]

You need to understand the goals and priorities, and the key problems and what information/work is required to take the next steps.

This is a skill you can learn.

Think of the project: what is the team trying to do? What is the goal - what are they trying to make or solve or produce for the customer or whatever.

Think of the team and company: what do they value? Speed? Quality? Detailed data?

Now think of each meeting like a decision point. We are meeting to discuss X portion of the project and decide Y about it. In order to discuss that topic we will need information. What information / actions are required coming out of the last meeting and going into the next meeting.

It is ok to take like 30min out of your day to sit back and think of the big picture, or to talk to others to get clarity on the big picture.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 12:01 PM on April 26 [3 favorites]

To me this dynamic when the group springs into action sounds like a manifestation of the double empathy problem. The rest of the group is, probably subconsciously, doing a bunch of coordination via implicit/nonverbal communication. The way to stop is to discuss accommodation with the authority figure who assigned the work -- this is no different from a bunch of hearing people excluding a Deaf employee because they can't be bothered to make the effort (and/or don't realize the person is Deaf).
posted by heatherlogan at 12:34 PM on April 26 [3 favorites]

One piece of advice is to imagine yourself as being in charge of the project. What would you want done? What would you want it to look like?

This gets you started on doing some of the difficult work of defining and planning, and also will help you make good assumptions when working independently.
posted by Lady Li at 12:34 PM on April 26 [2 favorites]

it started in school, and has followed me my whole life. Work, education, volunteering, hobbies, you name it.

Do people just immediately run off and start doing their own thing, or is there ever a quick "who's doing what" or "what needs doing" discussion at the start? If there isn't, start putting yourself in the role of immediately saying "okay, who's doing what? Are we missing any jobs?" and "Okay, so I'll help Sally with [relatively intensive task], unless somebody else needs more of a hand?"

If that step hasn't happened and everyone's really run off and gotten started, see what someone else is doing and just start doing it with them ("here, let me help you with these"). Won't always work, but often will. If one person doesn't want you, go on to the next.

In general, pay attention to what kinds of things people are doing. And review what things people have done on previous projects. That's part of how you learn what work needs to happen. I agree with the previous comments that you also need to start thinking about and understanding the actual problem that people are trying to solve, and the steps that needs to involve.

One reason people might be reacting with annoyance, aside from you laying some extra work on them by asking them to assign you a job, is that sometimes people ask "what can I do to help?" as a fig leaf for their getting out of doing any actual work; often the assumption is that if you actually wanted to help, you'd just roll your sleeves up and start pitching in, without ceremony.

If people truly don't let you help, figure out something you can do that would contribute in some way to the project or to any of the people working on it.

And if this is for work, you can generally talk with whoever is in charge. But probably don't start the conversation with "what can I do?" or "I don't have anything to do" - say "I don't have an assigned task, Sally and Jupiter have said they're good with tasks A and B, so I think it would make sense for me to do C. Okay?"
posted by trig at 12:43 PM on April 26 [1 favorite]

How to stop?

Here is a process for effective participation in a group project:

Before the Project
Evaluate the skills you have, the tools you have access to, and the amount you are able to/required to contribute. Know thyself, essentially.

When the Project is Discussed
Have a page of notes open with three headers, LOGISTICAL, TECHNICAL, SOCIAL
As items are brought up/ tasks are mentioned/ problems arise, jot them down under the three headers by the following metrics:

LOGISTICAL - These are things that you could do because it would be easy or make sense for you to do them. For example, if you are a big strong person and the project involves moving something heavy, it would make logistical sense for you to take on the responsibility to move the heavy thing. Or perhaps the project requires a lot of errands from place to place and you are the only one on the team with a car. Or perhaps the project requires a particular software that you happen to already own.

TECHNICAL - These are things that you could (or really should) do because your particular skillset is required. For example, if you are an excellent writer and the project has a written element, you should write it. Or you have accounting experience and the project needs an accountant. Important: if you are doing a work project, then the technical tasks you should take on would be anything related to your specific job duties and skills. Especially for a work project, you should not have to wait and be told what you are technically capable of taking on, you should already have a very good idea of this.

SOCIAL - These are the things you could do to lighten the load of others working on the project. Only tackle items on your social list if there's nothing that you are technically or logistically favored for. An example of a social task might be if the project requires calling local businesses, and everyone else in the group is too shy to do it--even if you're not the best at it, taking on this responsibility would be a kindness to the group. A social task is essentially learning where the pain points are in the project, and contributing what you can to make those go away.

When the Project Is Active
Instead of saying "what can I do to help?" you now will be able to look down at your list, pick a task you've highlighted for yourself, and say "I can do ________." And then once you've identified it as something you can do, very important, follow through and do it. When you've finished that, move onto the next!
posted by phunniemee at 1:11 PM on April 26 [7 favorites]

This is extremely familiar to me! Honestly, it is the sign of the way that poor organization/management excludes people - for many, many reasons, not everyone is ready to just identify a task and start tasking. Sometimes that's executive function, sometimes it's shyness, sometimes it's an authoritarian upbringing, sometimes it's cultural differences, sometimes it's a clique-y or bro-y vibe on the project, etc etc. If your project assumption is "brand new people will immediately jump in without direct training or instructions and be productive, and we will absolutely not support them if they have questions", then your project is badly run.

For years I believed I was a lazy person, when really I was just bad at jumping into totally new situations and never stayed around long enough for them to become old familiar situations. Actually I'm kind of a self-starter and currently run a volunteer evening where I boss people around a lot.

Anyway: what has helped me is seeking out structured environments. In my current job, although most tasks require some problem-solving and unique responses, the overall nature of the job is clear and structured. I know what I'm responsible for and I have enough resources to figure out how to problem solve - in fact, using resources correctly to help others problem-solve is a big chunk of my job.

In volunteer and social situations, seeking out structured stuff has worked for me. I do volunteer projects where I have a shift and various tasks, and where my role is specific. After two years with my current project, I can always find something to do.

Honestly, as someone who runs a volunteer shift, I don't think much of all these people who are not structuring work well enough to integrate a new person. If these projects are genuinely complex enough that it takes serious time to train you to help, they need to build that in. Otherwise, someone needs to belt up and say, "you can pull these numbers/make these copies/schedule these appointments" or whatever entry task can be assigned to you.
posted by Frowner at 1:41 PM on April 26 [10 favorites]

Are you possibly afraid of making mistakes or being chastised for doing the wrong thing? Maybe that's a barrier to jumping in to try to help.

Let's say that you're in one of these situations and for whatever reason no one is coordinating. Maybe you look around, analyze what needs to be done and observe what others are doing. Form a hypothesis about a helpful thing you could do. Don't worry about being wrong.

You could try announcing your hypothesis and offering a yes or no question or options to confirm. E.g. "I'm going to set up these chairs unless there's anything anyone else would like help with". Go ahead with chair setting up. If someone took issue later, you could feel comfortable that you did your part by making yourself available to help and checking in before doing it.

Generally speaking, open ended questions can be frustrating in these group collaboration situations. So offer solutions and thoughts along with them, even if you're not sure you're right. E.g. "Can I help you by stapling those booklets, or anything else?" Anything with a yes or no answer is less of a burden on the other person.

Keep in mind that there can be a "looking busy" part of this. Covered above by some other people.

If it's a complex project, it's good to identify the need for coordination at the very start and collect information about what everyone is doing. But if it's generic low stakes volunteering, especially with established volunteers, people may not want to be bothered with that.

If you're totally at a loss, see if you can find someone friendly and not too busy and ask them to teach you how to do something. Then return the favour by pitching in and helping lighten their load.
posted by lookoutbelow at 2:43 PM on April 26 [2 favorites]

These ppl are jerks. There is no such thing as a dumb question, not when you are sincerely trying to complete work assigned to you.

Unless perhaps you are in the wrong field, or in the wrong role. The Peter Principle -- getting promoted to my level of incompetence -- that is a real thing. I've been there, a lot -- I'm real stubborn so I work above my level of competence until I'm barking mad. But ppl love that I'm willing to bleed.

Tip: Anytime you are talking to anyone about something that has you buried, tape the conversation. How I wish I'd done that when I was at HP, but that was before it was so easy to record using your phone. Also: questions you have, write them down, in order of importance, and tape the conversation.

Again, maybe you're in the wrong role for you. When I was in the trades I was great with an apprentice or two, great with a team, but terrible when I was *not* on the job, to make certain it was done correctly. Put me in a role where I am not close to the job at hand and I looped the loop -- trusting others not for me. when I was not close
posted by dancestoblue at 10:36 PM on April 26

People get annoyed when asked "how can I help" when common tasks are underway because they expect you to be able to look around and find something useful to do -- by knowing what the goal is, seeing what other tasks are under way, and finding a task that is useful but not being done by someone else. This is a skill that needs to be learned., and many people learn it in their youth when doing chores at home. People get annoyed when you don't have this skill because they think you are acting like a child who has no knowledge of systems thinking, about how to break a goal down into tasks, about how to look around and see something that needs to be done and just do it.

I'm not judging you. Learn to think in a systems way. Look at the goal. Analyze what is necessary to achieve that goal. See what tasks are not yet under way. Pick one and do it.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:40 AM on April 27 [5 favorites]

I have a friend who is like this, including in a group of people he has known for over a decade (so I don’t think shyness is at play) at tasks that happened weekly-ish together for many years (making and cleaning up from dinner) so nothing at play is truly novel. It appears to me that he’s very not confident in the relevant skills, but instead of asking and learning which would have been reasonable many years ago, he chooses to opt out so he’s never built the skills. Yes, there is a cultural gap in upbringing I guess but thats true of 4 or 5 other people in this group who don’t have the same problem (and a couple who had upbringings very similar to mine who sometimes do). I don’t think “it’s poorly managed” is a reasonable explanation… the tasks we’re talking about are things like “carry plates from dinner table to kitchen, scrape food into trash, load dishwasher” and “carry serving dishes to kitchen, identify Tupperware, put food in Tupperware and place in fridge”. Most people will help carry things around even if they don’t know where something is stored in a kitchen, so there’s usually some natural sorting of tasks where people who know a space better will do the things that are hard for others to do.

If people ask when cooking dinner I will assign them very basic tasks like “find carrots in the fridge and wash them” or “here is a peeler, peel that pile of potatoes”, but I don’t hassle people into doing those things if they don’t ask because I find the emotional labor of asking more difficult than doing the task unless there is a very large volume of repetitive work to be done. Props to the friend who saw me grating cheese and asked if he could do that so I could go back to doing food prep that was hard for me to explain to someone else.

I think you just have to… do things. Helplessness can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. If someone is doing something that it seems like can go twice as fast if two people do it, like carrying a bunch of things from point A to point B, just go do it with them. Watch what other people are doing and if they’re recurring tasks, try to do some of the more complicated ones next time. If someone who is more in charge is doing something it seems like you could do, ask if you can relieve them so they can go back to doing working that is harder to explain to others/delegate.
posted by A Blue Moon at 6:54 AM on April 27 [8 favorites]

This specific problem with executive function is, as others noted, a failing of group management to be inclusive.

This is the classic "self-sufficiency" expectation being imposed. They want you to make an impact without needing assistance. They're expecting bootstraps-pulling and mind-reading to occur. If you can do that, great. If not, you're fired?!? (Even though a fair amount of the workforce deals with this transiently or chronically)

Sadly, hordes of workers have come before you and tried to cope or seek reasonable accommodation, and stumbled anyway because of sociopath-thriving management-failing stuff. Bosses are allowed to communicate poorly as long as they hit their metrics or whatever... they're not evaluated for how they nurture their employees, and it is a red flag when HR/PR says a lot about team excellence and your manager says/does nothing about it for months. (Like, what else are they bullshitting about that they're not doing at all?)

This doesn't make you a bad worker or a bad person. It does make you a misfit for bad institutions.

Look at this another way: if you were such a good self-starter, why aren't you out there running your own business and not dealing with their crap? People are supposed to take staff jobs because they save the worker from having to figure out all kinds of inefficient things for them (like accounting, taxes, managing) and allow them to focus on the parts of the job that they're good at. Efficiency delivers value. Most of the good jobs before our recent generation(s) had no requirements for self-starting or strong executive function. The jobs that have those problems now (particularly in digital fields)... are the employers hoping to hire people who put the whole business on their backs without equity & don't know their own worth?

I'm guessing from the description in this group-work situation that we're not talking about assembly line work. In terms of doing something with these insights, you'll either become an expert at summoning executive function through techniques and practice - at which point you should seriously think about pivoting your career toward contracting/consulting somehow and getting away from having hostile bosses/coworkers - or you'll fit your next job to doing something where you, as you are now, can deliver value from the outset as an individual contributor, without needing to navigate a chaotic team environment.

By the way, unreliable peers are also somewhat a hazard of the contemporary workplace. "People seem annoyed that I'm asking" idk, have you ever flashed real annoyance at a peer in a professional situation? Probably few times or none, because you know it would breed resentment rather than serve as constructive motivation. Do you work with high school bullies? That is what it sounds like. Except... high school bullies in the workplace isn't rare at all. If you're surrounded with them, something is wrong with the workplace.

And if you constantly perceive people might be annoyed at you & you have problems communicating because of it, some of that may be quite real, but you may also have emotional problems from the poor attention you earned earlier in life from having executive dysfunction. Schools and parenting focus very much on "self-starter" children, to a cruel degree. You may need psychological therapy to explore that and work around it - that kind of psychological work is intense, lengthy and difficult, but you deserve to express your reasonable basic needs to other people, without fear of retaliation.
posted by brianvan at 10:00 AM on April 27 [1 favorite]

I’ve found it’s a lot easier to ask ‘Can I do X?’ than ‘What should I do?’, where X is a job I see people doing that I know how to do. I know how to wash dishes. If I see people cleaning up I. The kitchen I will ask if I can do that. I can fold clothing. If I see people folding clothing, I go over there and ask if I can help. There is almost always some job like this - washing, drying, digging, folding, wiping down tables - that is hard to fuck up and needs to be done. It’s pretty failsafe.
posted by bq at 11:08 AM on April 27 [2 favorites]

Don't record conversations at work! That is bizarre and scary behaviour, even if you tell people about it beforehand!
posted by Sebmojo at 6:40 PM on April 28 [3 favorites]