Movin' to the Suburbs, gonna eat a lot of whatever-Surrey-produces
May 9, 2020 9:59 AM Subscribe
Buying in the suburbs vs renting in the city? We are living in Vancouver right now, and we love a lot about it, but we could buy a place in the suburbs right now (which might not be true six months or a year from now). We are really torn, and I want some perspective on what moving to the suburbs is really like, and if owning is that much better than renting.
We've been renting a flat in East Vancouver for a year and love a lot of things about it. The proximity to work downtown, the neighbourhood feel, proximity to beaches and attractions, the kids' school (both elementary-aged), cherry blossoms, shopping, all the things people love about Vancouver.
We haven't been saving any money though, because our rent is outrageously high. We can buy a 2000 sq ft condo in Surrey for less than the rent of 1000 sq ft in East Van. We have a small down-payment saved up, but we're not adding to it anymore, so if we are going to buy now is the time. There are some very motivated sellers at the moment and prices have come down, which they NEVER do in the area.
But we are torn. Suburbs mean longer commute (and paying for transit instead of biking to work), longer travel time to all the fun things we love, changing the kids' school, further to the airport/ferry, the awfulness of moving, etc. We would gain some space, some privacy, some autonomy (paint walls! get a hamster!) and some equity.
Have you moved to the suburbs with kids? Was it worth it?
Additional details: I'm a stay-at-home-mom and my wife works right downtown in Vancouver. Both of our kids have ADHD and are ROWDY. Moving to another (cheaper) rental is out-of-the-question. Even though our current place isn't perfect, its good enough that if we continue to rent we just wanna stay here. If we bought, it would be into a strata, with all that entails. We have owned a house before but not in this province.
We've been renting a flat in East Vancouver for a year and love a lot of things about it. The proximity to work downtown, the neighbourhood feel, proximity to beaches and attractions, the kids' school (both elementary-aged), cherry blossoms, shopping, all the things people love about Vancouver.
We haven't been saving any money though, because our rent is outrageously high. We can buy a 2000 sq ft condo in Surrey for less than the rent of 1000 sq ft in East Van. We have a small down-payment saved up, but we're not adding to it anymore, so if we are going to buy now is the time. There are some very motivated sellers at the moment and prices have come down, which they NEVER do in the area.
But we are torn. Suburbs mean longer commute (and paying for transit instead of biking to work), longer travel time to all the fun things we love, changing the kids' school, further to the airport/ferry, the awfulness of moving, etc. We would gain some space, some privacy, some autonomy (paint walls! get a hamster!) and some equity.
Have you moved to the suburbs with kids? Was it worth it?
Additional details: I'm a stay-at-home-mom and my wife works right downtown in Vancouver. Both of our kids have ADHD and are ROWDY. Moving to another (cheaper) rental is out-of-the-question. Even though our current place isn't perfect, its good enough that if we continue to rent we just wanna stay here. If we bought, it would be into a strata, with all that entails. We have owned a house before but not in this province.
It was many years ago, but we moved to the suburbs when our kids were 1, 2, and 3. Never looked back. It is all about if you are a city person or suburban or country person. Living in downtown Chicago with kids was both great and a pain in the ass. My input would come on the financial aspect. If you can get a good deal on a place now, why not do it and try it for a few years? If it sucks for you and your spouse, RE prices in Vancouver should be stable or even rise. Sell in a few years at breakeven or a profit if it is not for you.
I am now a renter. I am not convinced of the great American/Canadian concept of home ownership over renting. There are a lot of benefits to owning and to renting.
The other thing we looked at when moving was the schools. Since your child needs a certain level of support, will the new school district provide it? Better or the same as current school. Around here, the suburban schools do a great job of providing services. More than I would say a public school in the city (NY) would provide.
posted by AugustWest at 10:05 AM on May 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
I am now a renter. I am not convinced of the great American/Canadian concept of home ownership over renting. There are a lot of benefits to owning and to renting.
The other thing we looked at when moving was the schools. Since your child needs a certain level of support, will the new school district provide it? Better or the same as current school. Around here, the suburban schools do a great job of providing services. More than I would say a public school in the city (NY) would provide.
posted by AugustWest at 10:05 AM on May 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
I can't answer the question about Vancouver in particular but everything is changing so, so rapidly right now -- your assumptions about the market being at a low point may be exactly right but may be way, way off. The market really could tank, even in Vancouver. That's the reason the sellers are motivated -- they know that too. And selling a house can be really hard too if you hate it.
I would also want as much liquid money at the minute so would just hold on to the down payment, enjoy your current place (though benefits are obv. lower in a lockdown) and revisit in 6 months to a year. You may even be able to buy a bigger place then in your preferred location; you just don't know and may kick yourself if you don't give it some time to see how things shake out.
posted by caoimhe at 11:22 AM on May 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
I would also want as much liquid money at the minute so would just hold on to the down payment, enjoy your current place (though benefits are obv. lower in a lockdown) and revisit in 6 months to a year. You may even be able to buy a bigger place then in your preferred location; you just don't know and may kick yourself if you don't give it some time to see how things shake out.
posted by caoimhe at 11:22 AM on May 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
I can't speak specifically to moving to the suburbs with kids, but if it hasn't already been factored into or out of your decision, one thing to consider is the Vancouver Coastal Health and Fraser Health divide, particularly for your wife if she's living in one health authority region but working in and continuing to attend medical appointments in another. As you may know, some health services are funded directly by the health authorities based on regional population and may be restricted to residents of that region. If there are any services like that you guys are currently making use of or expect to make use of in the city, it might not hurt to check that you'd still be able to access them as Fraser Health residents.
posted by northernish at 11:31 AM on May 9, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by northernish at 11:31 AM on May 9, 2020 [4 favorites]
One of my closest friends lives in Coquitlam and I have spent a good amount of time there over the past...coming up on twenty years. It's nice to have strips of second-growth (?) forest right there for walks, though that does mean bears. They have a backyard which is probably more than they actually need, but has a nice view over the hills. I do think that if you're very attached to the joys of city life, you may find it a little isolating. My visits generally are a spur for us to drive into Vancouver proper and do fun stuff, and it's certainly doable, but it is a nontrivial haul and I don't think they do a lot of travel into the city when they're not entertaining high-strung New Yorkers. Suburban transit is also patchy. If you're close to a Skytrain station, great; otherwise, it's a lot of waiting on buses. Also, you don't necessarily get all the freedom you're envisioning as an owner; the bylaw officers are active and a lot of people out there seem to be really yearning for a US-style HOA and conduct themselves accordingly.
Her husband works in the school system and I will say that you get more transient students in that system than you might expect in the suburbs, for better and for worse.
On the prices, you're probably looking at some of the results of the relatively new laws on nonresident property owners, not just the pandemic. That's unlikely to depress prices much further. Of course, if there are ongoing restrictions on travel between China in particular and North America, that may be an ongoing drag on the market--but who can say?
posted by praemunire at 12:38 PM on May 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
Her husband works in the school system and I will say that you get more transient students in that system than you might expect in the suburbs, for better and for worse.
On the prices, you're probably looking at some of the results of the relatively new laws on nonresident property owners, not just the pandemic. That's unlikely to depress prices much further. Of course, if there are ongoing restrictions on travel between China in particular and North America, that may be an ongoing drag on the market--but who can say?
posted by praemunire at 12:38 PM on May 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
Was in Kits for about 15 years total, with a relocation to Kerrisdale for a few in between, rented a condo in Central Surrey (Whalley/ Newton) for a year, now renting a condo in Lougheed.
Central Surrey was not a good idea for me. Yes, its gentrifying but that means a ton of super noisy construction (and rules breaking; generators and air movers on overnight) and traffic disruptions. Those new towers are kinda stupid - very small units but tons of shared amenities, that you have to pay for whether you use them or not. The underground parking in those are a joke, like a 8/10ths scale model of real parkades.
If you buy an older unit, odds are you might get a good offer in a few years for redevelopment (depending on neighbourhood and just how old), but you might have to deal with less-than-conscientious neighbours. Central Surrey still has a large concentration of under-housed people and a very large opioid problem. I'm super glad I moved (out of one of these 40 yo condos) just before covid became a thing. I caught so many different colds/ flues that year.
On paper, it was walkable (so is Lougheed, but no) but in practice not so much. It's a density thing; if you want to go to one place, that's fine but if you want to go to two places, they usually aren't together/ on-the-way. If there was anywhere I actually wanted to walk to in the first place.
Kerrisdale is more walkable than either.
I also missed good Chinese food (and variety of), and because of traffic and distance I essentially stopped dining out with friends for the entire year - other than on the occasional weekend - in Vancouver. Lots of options for Indian food, though. Some Korean. There's one surprisingly stellar (but expensive, but less expensive than the equivalent in Vancouver) Japanese place (Hanako) in Guildford. But variety is generally lacking outside of chains.
The "nice" grocery store (Nesters) has nothing on the IGA in Kits much less Greens or Whole Foods. Expensive, poor selection. The Safeway was surprisingly decent, though. Complete lack of higher end independent butchers and fishmongers. The Fruiticana is ok, but there's a general lack of fresh quality produce like with all the little mom&pop produce places in Kits.
But Surrey is big. Very big. There are nice neighbourhoods. Guildford isn't bad, but no Skytrain there. Parking is less of an issue, for now, though. Driving over the bridge (any/ all of them) to get downtown on a daily commute will infuriate. Especially if it's raining/ snowing. Off peak hours is less bad, but then you have to deal with off peak hours.
Can you afford New West or Burnaby? The commute downtown by Skytrain isn't bad, so long as you don't have to change trains. South Surrey/ Whiterock can be nice, but it's faaar.
I'd double check on whether the mortgage (and insurance! and strata!) on a 2k sqft condo in Surrey really is less than the rent on a 1k sqft one in E. Van.
posted by porpoise at 1:14 PM on May 9, 2020 [4 favorites]
Central Surrey was not a good idea for me. Yes, its gentrifying but that means a ton of super noisy construction (and rules breaking; generators and air movers on overnight) and traffic disruptions. Those new towers are kinda stupid - very small units but tons of shared amenities, that you have to pay for whether you use them or not. The underground parking in those are a joke, like a 8/10ths scale model of real parkades.
If you buy an older unit, odds are you might get a good offer in a few years for redevelopment (depending on neighbourhood and just how old), but you might have to deal with less-than-conscientious neighbours. Central Surrey still has a large concentration of under-housed people and a very large opioid problem. I'm super glad I moved (out of one of these 40 yo condos) just before covid became a thing. I caught so many different colds/ flues that year.
On paper, it was walkable (so is Lougheed, but no) but in practice not so much. It's a density thing; if you want to go to one place, that's fine but if you want to go to two places, they usually aren't together/ on-the-way. If there was anywhere I actually wanted to walk to in the first place.
Kerrisdale is more walkable than either.
I also missed good Chinese food (and variety of), and because of traffic and distance I essentially stopped dining out with friends for the entire year - other than on the occasional weekend - in Vancouver. Lots of options for Indian food, though. Some Korean. There's one surprisingly stellar (but expensive, but less expensive than the equivalent in Vancouver) Japanese place (Hanako) in Guildford. But variety is generally lacking outside of chains.
The "nice" grocery store (Nesters) has nothing on the IGA in Kits much less Greens or Whole Foods. Expensive, poor selection. The Safeway was surprisingly decent, though. Complete lack of higher end independent butchers and fishmongers. The Fruiticana is ok, but there's a general lack of fresh quality produce like with all the little mom&pop produce places in Kits.
But Surrey is big. Very big. There are nice neighbourhoods. Guildford isn't bad, but no Skytrain there. Parking is less of an issue, for now, though. Driving over the bridge (any/ all of them) to get downtown on a daily commute will infuriate. Especially if it's raining/ snowing. Off peak hours is less bad, but then you have to deal with off peak hours.
Can you afford New West or Burnaby? The commute downtown by Skytrain isn't bad, so long as you don't have to change trains. South Surrey/ Whiterock can be nice, but it's faaar.
I'd double check on whether the mortgage (and insurance! and strata!) on a 2k sqft condo in Surrey really is less than the rent on a 1k sqft one in E. Van.
posted by porpoise at 1:14 PM on May 9, 2020 [4 favorites]
Can you buy something closer and maybe smaller? More space = more upkeep, heat, etc. I like owning because it helped me build equity, but condo fees are a pain.
posted by theora55 at 3:32 PM on May 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by theora55 at 3:32 PM on May 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
I have read that a lot of condos in BC are being faced with ruinous insurance costs which are increasing the strata fees accordingly so make sure whatever deal you think you're getting is actually what it seems.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 4:42 PM on May 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 4:42 PM on May 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you for all your input. You've given us a lot to think about.
The health region thing is one I had never considered. I had to bust my ass (and wait and wait) to get a doctor, and then a pediatrician for my kid. Keeping her is valuable (as is keeping the school support workers that my kid has a good relationship with).
We read the bylaws for one place we were considering and they were draconian. No growing vegetables anywhere on the property, not even in your private back yard area. No planters (even nice one! even flowers!) on your balcony. You can't shake a rug anywhere on the property. It was bizarre.
Central Surrey is exactly where we are looking. We found some nice places, but the realtor warned us that the neighbourhoods were old and run down and would certainly be bought up by developers soon to build more condos, so construction construction construction. Thank you for reminding me that living in a construction zone for five years is non-trivial.
We can't really afford New West or Burnaby. We looked at a couple in Burnaby, but in our price range all we could get is a 40+ year old condo, maybe 1100 sq feet, where the commute would be longer than from central Surrey because there would be a bus or two to get to the skytrain. Maybe in a couple of years when I'm able to work. I think waiting until then might be our best option.
I think the best thing is to stay where we are for now. My wife is going to keep looking at listings, mostly to monitor things but she also hopes she finds a unicorn. :)
posted by arcticwoman at 8:34 AM on May 11, 2020
The health region thing is one I had never considered. I had to bust my ass (and wait and wait) to get a doctor, and then a pediatrician for my kid. Keeping her is valuable (as is keeping the school support workers that my kid has a good relationship with).
We read the bylaws for one place we were considering and they were draconian. No growing vegetables anywhere on the property, not even in your private back yard area. No planters (even nice one! even flowers!) on your balcony. You can't shake a rug anywhere on the property. It was bizarre.
Central Surrey is exactly where we are looking. We found some nice places, but the realtor warned us that the neighbourhoods were old and run down and would certainly be bought up by developers soon to build more condos, so construction construction construction. Thank you for reminding me that living in a construction zone for five years is non-trivial.
We can't really afford New West or Burnaby. We looked at a couple in Burnaby, but in our price range all we could get is a 40+ year old condo, maybe 1100 sq feet, where the commute would be longer than from central Surrey because there would be a bus or two to get to the skytrain. Maybe in a couple of years when I'm able to work. I think waiting until then might be our best option.
I think the best thing is to stay where we are for now. My wife is going to keep looking at listings, mostly to monitor things but she also hopes she finds a unicorn. :)
posted by arcticwoman at 8:34 AM on May 11, 2020
In case you're feeling down about not buying a place in Central Surrey - police sirens all the time. I've heard gunshots.
Day I moved in, there were a bunch of SUVs worth of police at the corner of the block with carbines and beanbag guns drawn.
A downstairs neighbour was dealing drugs through their second storey balcony to bike couriers. We'd have people shooting up outside of the parkade, behind hedgerows, brick fences.
We'd have under-housed people visiting the building all the time. The mailboxes in the lobby were routinely pried open. Don't even think about leaving your bike in a bike cage.
Puke/ poop everywhere on the streets, bus stops.
A lot of my neighbours were domestic abusers and child abusers and it hurt my soul being around that kind of behaviour (yelling, throwing stuff, then a WHUMP as someone was thrown into an interior wall, relative quiet or sobbing crying, depending).
I was probably in a really bad building, though, but I suspect any of the older condos that allow rental will have similar issues. A 1 bed 3rd (out of 4) floor was extensively renovated and sold in the upper $300k range right before I moved. There are a bunch of nicer newish 4 storey apartments with gates but the price will go up dramatically.
As for the carpet thing - it's because it happens so much and sometimes terribly. Like cat hair/ feces blowing into people's apartments, common green areas strewn with same.
posted by porpoise at 10:02 AM on May 11, 2020
Day I moved in, there were a bunch of SUVs worth of police at the corner of the block with carbines and beanbag guns drawn.
A downstairs neighbour was dealing drugs through their second storey balcony to bike couriers. We'd have people shooting up outside of the parkade, behind hedgerows, brick fences.
We'd have under-housed people visiting the building all the time. The mailboxes in the lobby were routinely pried open. Don't even think about leaving your bike in a bike cage.
Puke/ poop everywhere on the streets, bus stops.
A lot of my neighbours were domestic abusers and child abusers and it hurt my soul being around that kind of behaviour (yelling, throwing stuff, then a WHUMP as someone was thrown into an interior wall, relative quiet or sobbing crying, depending).
I was probably in a really bad building, though, but I suspect any of the older condos that allow rental will have similar issues. A 1 bed 3rd (out of 4) floor was extensively renovated and sold in the upper $300k range right before I moved. There are a bunch of nicer newish 4 storey apartments with gates but the price will go up dramatically.
As for the carpet thing - it's because it happens so much and sometimes terribly. Like cat hair/ feces blowing into people's apartments, common green areas strewn with same.
posted by porpoise at 10:02 AM on May 11, 2020
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posted by arcticwoman at 10:01 AM on May 9, 2020