Deborah Tannen, where are you when I need you?

June 1, 2018 5:55 AM

I want to attend a class that starts a half hour after my shift. The organizer emphasized that it was for ALL not just teachers.

My supervisor (yes, I'm still employed, but my contract runs out soon) sent me an e-mail in response to the calendar event I added for the class. He had cc'd to his supervisor and the head of HR. It said,

If this is meant to be a request for paid absence during duty hours, I am disapproving this request. I do not see the need for you to be attending six training classes meant for classroom teachers and administrators.
Please explain how this relates to your duties as administrative support?

Now I think because he asked me, I should reply and cc everyone involved but to embarrass him will not helping my cause, even though he behaves badly.

Without knowing either of us or our history, was his tone necessary? And should I reply with the facts, or let it go? It's five classes that start an hour before end of day. And it's for everyone, not just leadership.
I had a drafted a reply, apologizing for not taking a second to explain all of this (I wasn't asking for big chunks of time, just leaving a bit early ) and explaining it was an afternoon class and yet I'm not sure the pyrotechnics with the cc s were necessary either. I felt like he was just trying to embarrass me/make me feel bad.

I suspect it would feel good to send and then mark me as a troublemaker.

Sorry for the brevity but I need to get to work.

posted by Rumi'sLeftSock to Work & Money (24 answers total)

My read: he is being an arse!

However: How have you phrased your request? I would think if you want to leave earlier without an agreed flexitime schedule then it probably should have been a direct request of:
"I want to attend a personal interest class at XXX time. I would make up the extra hour by coming in early/short lunch break/longer hours on other days."

The content of the class is none of his business unless work is paying for it! It could be artistic vase painting for all that it's his concern!
posted by Wysawyg at 6:00 AM on June 1, 2018 [2 favorites]

His email is pretty abrupt/rude -- I would never communicate with a direct report like that, even if I thought their request was completely frivolous. (Not saying your request was frivolous at all, though!)

I think you should Reply All, not to embarrass him but because (seemingly) the other folks on the email are somehow part of the approval process for this type of thing.

Send a concise, super-polite email explaining (a) that the class is open to everyone, (b) what you hope to learn in it, (c) why it will improve your performance, and (d) your plan to make up the time, if you have one. For example, maybe you will come in early or work through lunch on class days?
posted by schroedingersgirl at 6:02 AM on June 1, 2018 [8 favorites]

His response doesn't strike me as rude, assuming the extent of your request ahead of time was putting the class on a jointly-accessible calendar. It's just a bit of a roundabout way of asking "IS this a request for paid absence during work hours?" If not, you should definitely clarify by asking permission to attend the class and make up the time. If you are in fact requesting to attend a class rather than working during that time, well, you have an answer, but it might be based on an inaccurate understanding of the class (plus some annoyance that you didn't ask first). I'd backpedal a bit and say you just added it to the calendar as a placeholder and are sorry he saw that before you made the request.

The fact that the class is OPEN to everyone (not just teachers) isn't necessarily relevant - how it would improve your own performance is. And if you're leaving soon, your supervisor would be very reasonable in not investing in such training.

There is nothing to be gained in mentioning his tone or use of cc.

This is all assuming you work a job with set hours and fairly close supervision, and that there's no workplace policy allowing employees to do X class hours of training/year during work.
posted by cogitron at 6:26 AM on June 1, 2018 [6 favorites]

I want to attend a class that starts a half hour after my shift.

It sounds like this class is fairly nearby? Tell him it starts after your shift and won't be an issue.

In the future don't put things outside of work hours on a shared calendar. None of their business.

If you do need to leave a little early for the class, answer the question professionally and reply to everyone the email was sent to -- otherwise reply with something like "Mea culpa, meant to put this on my personal calendar -- rest assured my work will be unaffected." Don't remove people from the email and give the impression that you never bothered to respond, but don't try to cause embarrassment either.
posted by yohko at 6:30 AM on June 1, 2018 [2 favorites]

Dear Manager,

It does sound like a teacher-only event, and that's what I thought when I first heard/read about it, too. However, Deborah made a point of telling me that non-teachers, including myself, are expected to attend. This is because X / I'm sure Deb can clarify the reasons.

Thanks,
Rumi'sLeftSock

(Cc-ed to everybody)

The brevity and understanding above are the key points.
posted by amtho at 6:30 AM on June 1, 2018 [4 favorites]

I'm confused -- does the class start after your shift (in which case there is no impact to your work) or does it require you to leave early? If it means leaving early, then yes, as your supervisor I would expect a formal request for that, including whether you were asking to do that on work-time (i.e., leave early but still be paid for the time) or by changing your hours (i.e., arriving early on those days, or cutting your hours for that week). I certainly wouldn't want to find out by someone simply adding an event to a shared calendar, which might be perceived as entitled or disrespectful.

So depending on what the class schedule and impact on your work actually are, you need to send a clear and concise clarifying email (cc'ing all), where you either say "oops, my bad, this is on my own time and didn't need to be on the calendar" or "sorry for the confusion, see below/attached for my request for leaving early on those days, let's meet to discuss as soon as possible."
posted by Dip Flash at 6:44 AM on June 1, 2018 [8 favorites]

If you're a woman, apologizing at work has no benefit 99% of the time and could likely be detrimental; unless you've done something verbally or physically abusive, never apologize at work. You can reply-all addressing the issue and proposing a solution, but not acknowledge his inappropriate emotional response (this allows him to save face and makes you look reasonable in comparison). E.g., "Hi all, To clarify, this class [while being relevant to my role because X], occurs outside of my scheduled hours and I will be attending on my own time. To account for commuting time, I may need to [shift my schedule by leaving 30 minutes early]; [I will be able to make up this time by shifting my starting time to 30 minutes earlier as well/working through lunch/etc OR I will put in a formal request for PTO/unPTO shortly.] Please let me know if there is another procedure I should follow instead. Thanks, [name]"
posted by melissasaurus at 7:19 AM on June 1, 2018 [5 favorites]

"his tone"? it's written to be as bereft of any tone as is humanly possible, in the conditional just in case he misunderstood you. he says he's not approving something because he doesn't see the need, please explain. so if you need something approved, tell him what the need is and explain. If you were not requesting paid absences during duty hours as he surmised, just say that to clarify.

no apologies are called for from either of you; he is not requesting any and I don't know why you would. He is not behaving badly and hitting reply all makes sense and will not embarrass him; why would it? There's nothing wrong with cc-ing HR on what is an HR-related policy. CCing his supervisor was prudent on his part since he had clarifying questions for you and, as a mid-level person, will want to be sure he's correct in approving or not approving any request.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:53 AM on June 1, 2018 [8 favorites]

Your question is confusing. You say this event starts half an hour after your shift then you say it starts an hour before the end of the day and say you need to leave early to attend it.

Unless adding events to a shared calendar is the normal way of asking for time off in your workplace then I can understand his annoyance. It would have been better to speak to him in person, ask for permission to leave early on x dates to attend the class and then given him the opportunity to discuss it with you. Sounds like he probably still would have said no, but unless you have flex-time, leaving early is a privilege not a right. I don't know why you would assume it was OK without asking in advance.
posted by missmagenta at 7:59 AM on June 1, 2018 [9 favorites]

(I mean it sounds like you think him being wrong about the broad intended audience for this course is somehow embarrassing for him, and also that you think his suggestion that you were wrong about your eligibility to take it would have been very embarrassing for you, if he'd been right. such that CCing other people on an email suggesting you made a mistake is an attempt to humiliate you.

but it's a meaningless error whichever one of you made it, and there is nothing humiliating about making a harmless error of fact that's easily corrected. you can't embarrass other people by acknowledging their harmless mistakes unless they are fully ego-invested in being right about things that don't matter very much.)
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:02 AM on June 1, 2018

Eh, cc'ing his supervisor, OP's grand-boss, seems entirely unnecessary and aggressive. I don't even see why HR would need to be cc'ed on his request for an explanation if it was in good faith. And I do find the phrasing rather abrupt. "Can you explain why you need to attend this class? It doesn't appear to be relevant to your role" or something similar would have been equally clear and less critical-sounding.

Reply to him only. If he's right, it won't matter. If he's wrong, then you will have avoided potentially making him look like a jerk in front of his supervisor and another department. If you didn't discuss the impact on your schedule with him beforehand, you should have. Well, now you know. Explain the relevance and how your request fits into whatever the policy on training is at your job.
posted by praemunire at 8:39 AM on June 1, 2018 [1 favorite]

He is not behaving badly and hitting reply all makes sense and will not embarrass him; why would it?

BTW, you must have the best colleagues on the planet if you never have to worry about a supervisor being irritated to have been shown to have made an error in front of his supervisor. Truly. Hang on to that job like grim death!
posted by praemunire at 8:42 AM on June 1, 2018 [2 favorites]

So - I am a supervisor and I can give you some context here.

First - I am confused. You say the classes start half an hour after your shift but also an hour before end of day and that you need to leave early to get there. That is a request for time off (no matter how small and paid or unpaid), not something that you put into your calendar as a given. If the first thing I got from an employee was a calendar request for a class they are taking on company time or that they want to leave early to go to, I would be absolutely be in my right to ask the questions your supervisor did.

To give you context as to how this normally goes - an employee of mine has a child care commitment that requires her to be late one morning a week. She blocks the time off in her calendar and works late to make up the time, but before she did that she mentioned to me that it was coming and if that was an acceptable solution. I am bound by some laws to support her in this, but am still in a position to process the request, to know generally why it is, and to propose other accommodations if the solution she's proposing doesn't work for me.

I have a second employee who wanted to move up her 7am-3pm work time to 5am-1pm so she can have her afternoons off. I denied it because our work hours mean she's only available to facilitate meetings between the hours of 8am - 1pm and a key part of her job is facilitation. The hours of 5am - 8pm don't allow her to do her job properly. Instead, we worked out a solution where she compresses her week and takes Friday afternoons off. This all happened ahead of her putting in a calendar request.

Second - the cc-ing - people cc HR and their supervisor while requests aren't straightforward and may be denied. In the event two parties don't agree on something, it's best for others who may have to arbitrate to be aware of it.

I think you went about this request all wrong unless your workplace has a culture of leaving whenever you want and not asking your supervisor to approve you not being at your desk when you're supposed to be. My advice would be - calmly explain in person why you want to do that class, why it benefits your company, and what you need (time off wise) to go to it.
posted by notorious medium at 8:46 AM on June 1, 2018 [13 favorites]

I wasn't asking for big chunks of time, just leaving a bit early

Did you ask? Or did you put the event in your calendar without first obtaining approval? Especially since your contract is ending it seems odd to ask for paid time for training. Can you suggest time-shifting your hours (coming in half an hour early if you duties are not time dependent like needing someone to actually be in the office at that time).

As to the value, you would want to emphasize the value the training brings your organization by upping your skills - however if you are actually leaving soon there is limited benefit (unless you plan on applying for further contracts).

Are you working in a school or other super hierarchal organization? Sometimes they can be REALLY rigid about roles while talking out the other side of their mouths about valuing everyone equally. The person running the workshop would most likely tell everyone they are welcome and leave it up to supervisors to determine actual eligibility (especially if it involves the organisation's resources; attending on your own time would not be using resources).
posted by saucysault at 8:59 AM on June 1, 2018 [4 favorites]

Response by poster: A bit of clarification is in order. (It was early when I wrote that!) Also I don't quite know how to link, but looking at my previous post might be helpful. Although a bureaucracy, my workspace is quite flexible. I put the Dr àppointnent in the calendar, l go. l want a vac day, l ask.
l work til 4:30, class is 4 to 6 not all day as he implies. Making time up by coming in early or staying late is expected and encouraged. I suppose it was more of a placeholder but the response surprised me.
posted by Rumi'sLeftSock at 9:36 AM on June 1, 2018

I'm reading this as partly a culture clash.

I'm not sure what level your institution is at, or what its approach to training is, but at most organizations I've worked with, general training like you've outlined is usually intended for permanent or long-term contract staff, even if it goes to the "all" email address. So if you were my soon-to-leave contract staff, I would have expected that you would have asked me if I thought attending was appropriate first, and second to clear the time off, before creating a calendar item for it.

Now that may well not be true at your organization but I'd think about whether it is. So with that context:

Without knowing either of us or our history, was his tone necessary? And should I reply with the facts, or let it go? It's five classes that start an hour before end of day. And it's for everyone, not just leadership.

I thought his tone was fine. Not warm and fuzzy but he asked hey, what's the purpose of you taking this training and are you asking for time off?

I would not reply via email. I would go and talk to him and explain why you would like to be allowed to participate, apologize for the lack of up-front communication, and see if it can be arranged. After that meeting, then I would reply-all with an "as discussed, I will be...thank you"
posted by warriorqueen at 9:36 AM on June 1, 2018 [2 favorites]

Based on how bad your relationship with basically everyone involved is from your previous question and the fact that you're leaving, your boss is not going to do you any favors. Replying with snark would not embarrass him but dig the rut you're already in deeper. The guy is probably a jerk. Keep your head down and just get through the rest of the contract and find a workplace that's a better fit that will hopefully have a better boss as well.
posted by Candleman at 9:45 AM on June 1, 2018 [1 favorite]

Response by poster: I am leaving the department, not necessarily the org. We were told *all* would benefit from the training.
posted by Rumi'sLeftSock at 9:49 AM on June 1, 2018

Unless your response to him somehow makes you look bad, I would "reply all". Your supervisor felt the need to notify those people, so they should be kept in the loop. If there is some reason he could/should be embarrassed by your response, maybe he should have put more thought into the original email.

(Not saying he's done something wrong here—I'm not clear enough on the details of the story to feel comfortable taking a stand one way or the other.)
posted by she's not there at 10:10 AM on June 1, 2018 [1 favorite]

Response by poster: And finally I don't think it was entirely clear but the original question was the tone,and to cc'or not to cc: (my reply was cordial). Now l promise I'm done
posted by Rumi'sLeftSock at 10:12 AM on June 1, 2018

The only reason to CC to those people is to show them who's boss (figuratively, not literally since that person is your boss). I don't think that's a good attitude to have or cultivate at work, regardless of how he acts.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 11:21 AM on June 1, 2018 [1 favorite]

BTW, you must have the best colleagues on the planet if you never have to worry about a supervisor being irritated to have been shown to have made an error in front of his supervisor.

it's nice of you to say so. but also I have been a supervisor and if my higher-ups had read everything CC-ed to them but not directly involving them it'd have been a miracle. in fact if they read everything directly addressed to them and urgently requiring their attention it'd be a miracle.

my experience is just that when people do start laying on the CCs, it's either to be careful and responsible or to have witnesses for whatever reason. and especially in the latter case, they get irritated when you take something out of the public eye that they deliberately put there. there isn't any "shown to have made an error" risk here since you can't really be in error by requesting clarification. I don't think there's any need to worry about showing this guy up in front of people by simply answering the question he asked, as long as the tone of the reply matches his and is sent in a spirit of pure information-sharing.
posted by queenofbithynia at 1:40 PM on June 1, 2018 [1 favorite]

Is it possible that your boss knows more about the class and intended audience than you do? Maybe someone said it was meant for everyone but his understanding is that it's really just like he said: for administrators and teachers. If you're not going to be there much longer then I can see why he doesn't think it's necessary for you to take an optional class at this time.
posted by dawkins_7 at 2:09 PM on June 1, 2018 [1 favorite]

Response by poster: So this is why I should never try and cram in the whole story in 20 minutes before work--'cause I don't put enough detail in I garner misunderstandings and assumptions galore . And since I feel weird posting about work at work (since they tell us they will monitor, access and copy activity), I had to wait to get my phone straight (now home again). He did approve it, but had to throw in one last zinger about "communication." If I did 999 things right, he would pick out the one I did wrong and paint in in gold letters 12 feet high on a red wall. I am very good about communicating my absences, sick times, appointments, etc. I just got in a hurry and he took the opportunity to bait me.

Is it possible that your boss knows more about the class and intended audience than you do?

No :-). The organizer of the class said it was for everyone, in fact, he put it in writing. Again, I am leaving the department but not necessarily the org. We do nothing in the summer. He should care, unless he's being petty.

So I mailed him privately and took the advice of reporting in to the two higher ups. If he questions that, I will quote whoever said I don't want them to think I wasn't responsive (I'm paraphrasing).

I know "get a new job" is popular refrain here. My contract is just about up, no need to make a fuss. Someone has to be the adult. Besides, they pay 98% of the insurance premiums.

Thank you for all the various input, advice and opinions.
posted by Rumi'sLeftSock at 4:04 PM on June 1, 2018