Is this surgery center breaking the law?
July 10, 2013 9:24 AM Subscribe
I had planned surgery yesterday, which was cancelled on the part of the surgery center because of equipment issues. I originally paid a deposit to lock in the date/time, and also made a partial payment on a CC the day before (because it was not my card and the cardholder wouldn't be present on the procedure day). Am I right in demanding a refund of the money paid thus far, and is it actually illegal for them to NOT refund me?
The total amount "fronted" was about half the cost of surgery; the deposit, as I was told, was necessary to lock in the surgery date. I have processed returns for things at work in the past and it's not a laborious process by any means, so I'm guessing their reluctance/defensiveness for not wanting to do so is that they are afraid to lose me as a customer. They haven't offered me a new surgery date, but they only do this once a month and there is no certainty that they would even be doing this surgery next month. I actually am looking into going to a different surgery after all this... but I primarily want to know if they are required by law to give this money back, or if I'm screw, or what. My mom seemed to think that it was highly illegal (something about corporate compliance?) but I couldn't figure it out just by googling. Important note: I haven't signed any paperwork with the surgery center or made any agreements via email (that I can remember/find) regarding money.
This is in the US, in PA. Thanks!
The total amount "fronted" was about half the cost of surgery; the deposit, as I was told, was necessary to lock in the surgery date. I have processed returns for things at work in the past and it's not a laborious process by any means, so I'm guessing their reluctance/defensiveness for not wanting to do so is that they are afraid to lose me as a customer. They haven't offered me a new surgery date, but they only do this once a month and there is no certainty that they would even be doing this surgery next month. I actually am looking into going to a different surgery after all this... but I primarily want to know if they are required by law to give this money back, or if I'm screw, or what. My mom seemed to think that it was highly illegal (something about corporate compliance?) but I couldn't figure it out just by googling. Important note: I haven't signed any paperwork with the surgery center or made any agreements via email (that I can remember/find) regarding money.
This is in the US, in PA. Thanks!
I haven't signed any paperwork with the surgery center or made any agreements via email (that I can remember/find) regarding money.
Stop doing that. It's never appropriate to give someone money without knowing what it is you are giving them.
Am I right in demanding a refund of the money paid thus far, and is it actually illegal for them to NOT refund me?
Maybe, maybe not. It depends on what you agreed to with the deposit. Some states regulate the term "deposit" in some contexts to mean a very specific (generally refundable) item, but the surgery center may call it a "fee" or something equivalent. You need to find out what you agreed to and then you will have answered your question.
posted by saeculorum at 9:32 AM on July 10, 2013
Stop doing that. It's never appropriate to give someone money without knowing what it is you are giving them.
Am I right in demanding a refund of the money paid thus far, and is it actually illegal for them to NOT refund me?
Maybe, maybe not. It depends on what you agreed to with the deposit. Some states regulate the term "deposit" in some contexts to mean a very specific (generally refundable) item, but the surgery center may call it a "fee" or something equivalent. You need to find out what you agreed to and then you will have answered your question.
posted by saeculorum at 9:32 AM on July 10, 2013
Have you tried rescheduling the procedure? I should think it would be a matter of moving the surgery to another day at no extra charge rather than a refund.
posted by orange swan at 9:44 AM on July 10, 2013
posted by orange swan at 9:44 AM on July 10, 2013
I don't know about the law in PA where you are, but I do know that in Kansas the Board of Healing Arts considers it fraud for a healthcare provider to accept money without providing the service the money was intended to pay for.
This is a big issue with pre-payment plans where the money deposited is supposed to be put in a trust that is then drawn down as the services are provided, but I can see how this would apply to you situation also.
That being said, you may have to wait a couple of days to a week for a refund, but they should not hesitate when you ask for a refund.
posted by Broken Ankle at 10:03 AM on July 10, 2013
This is a big issue with pre-payment plans where the money deposited is supposed to be put in a trust that is then drawn down as the services are provided, but I can see how this would apply to you situation also.
That being said, you may have to wait a couple of days to a week for a refund, but they should not hesitate when you ask for a refund.
posted by Broken Ankle at 10:03 AM on July 10, 2013
Was the deposit also on a credit card, or just the partial payment the day before? One nice thing about putting things on a credit card is that you can call up the credit card company and ask whether this situation is one that would meet the criteria for reversing the charges. I think (although I am not positive) that paying a deposit for something that a company doesn't deliver as promised falls pretty squarely into the sort of situation where the credit card company will reverse the charges and refund you the money directly.
If this were me, I'd also be looking online to find the number for my state's consumer hotline run by the attorney general, which should be able to answer questions about your legal rights in this situation (looks like Pennsylvania's is here). Even if you successfully reverse the charges on your credit card, knowing that the surgery center can't come after you and try to get the deposit back would be good for peace-of-mind.
By the way, if this deposit was for LASIK or eye surgery (just guessing based on your question and the fact they do the surgery once per month, which was the case with my LASIK provider), I think you're totally smart to demand your money back and find another place to do the surgery. Malfunctioning equipment would make me extremely leery of having the surgery performed there--even if they fix the machine, I'm not sure I'd want to reschedule for the next month and be among the first having my eyes done by a recently-fixed machine.
posted by iminurmefi at 10:06 AM on July 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
If this were me, I'd also be looking online to find the number for my state's consumer hotline run by the attorney general, which should be able to answer questions about your legal rights in this situation (looks like Pennsylvania's is here). Even if you successfully reverse the charges on your credit card, knowing that the surgery center can't come after you and try to get the deposit back would be good for peace-of-mind.
By the way, if this deposit was for LASIK or eye surgery (just guessing based on your question and the fact they do the surgery once per month, which was the case with my LASIK provider), I think you're totally smart to demand your money back and find another place to do the surgery. Malfunctioning equipment would make me extremely leery of having the surgery performed there--even if they fix the machine, I'm not sure I'd want to reschedule for the next month and be among the first having my eyes done by a recently-fixed machine.
posted by iminurmefi at 10:06 AM on July 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
If you paid both the deposit and the partial payment on a credit card, you're covered.
You should call the medical center billing department and discuss a refund and explicitly mention that you'll be taking it up with your credit card provider as a last resort. Document this call and the discussion - take notes about who, when, what was said.
Then, if you don't get satisfaction, call your CC provider and let them know that you're being charged for a service that was not provided. They'll issue a chargeback, which is expensive and annoying for the medical center, and you'll have your money back.
At that point, though, be prepared never to set foot in this center again - they'll hate you.
Also, if you paid for any of it by check or cash, this approach won't work...
posted by RedOrGreen at 10:09 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
You should call the medical center billing department and discuss a refund and explicitly mention that you'll be taking it up with your credit card provider as a last resort. Document this call and the discussion - take notes about who, when, what was said.
Then, if you don't get satisfaction, call your CC provider and let them know that you're being charged for a service that was not provided. They'll issue a chargeback, which is expensive and annoying for the medical center, and you'll have your money back.
At that point, though, be prepared never to set foot in this center again - they'll hate you.
Also, if you paid for any of it by check or cash, this approach won't work...
posted by RedOrGreen at 10:09 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Have you asked them for a refund yet? That could be a good first step before getting all worked about whether it's illegal for them to refuse. Maybe they'll just give you the refund.
posted by alms at 10:23 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by alms at 10:23 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Hi all, update/clarification:
- Yes, this is for LASIK at a very well-known university hospital in the Philadelphia area.
- I am paying using my FSA, and I am not using health insurance at all for this procedure.
- They are not currently able to give me new surgery date; the coordinator said he wasn't 100% certain that there would be a date in August***
- They only do this once a month
- I did get a break down, in writing, of the total cost of the surgery and what exactly it included. However, the consent forms and agreement for the surgery were to be signed (before sedation) on the day of surgery, which didn't happen. The deposit, as I was told, was for locking in the surgery date and time.
- The large payment was on a CC, the deposit was on a visa debit card.
- I did ask for a refund via email for both payments; the surgery coordinator danced around it but ultimately said via email: "I’m figuring out the correct procedure for refunding money to you (talking with the billing office already)." After I got the email, I called the billing "office" for this surgery center, and the person I talked to was very defensive. She said she would have to check with someone, refused to give me that someone's contact info or say who she actually needed to call... she's the only person in the office and confirmed that it was the first time she was hearing about this. I'm trying not to be overly paranoid, but I do want to get my ducks in a row to make sure I get this money back.
I agree, iminurmefi, that this is not good, which is precisely why I am looking into getting this done elsewhere. The place I'm looking into is also well-regarded (my friend also got his LASIK there and had a great experience) and they do the surgery several times a week.
***There's an additional wrench in the works: I only have until September 15th to use my FSA funds from the previous year on this surgery (long story, I know the laws have changed by my employer is honoring this anyway), so if this happens again I will almost surely be losing huge portion of FSA funds (with nothing else to spend them on).
posted by ancient star at 10:56 AM on July 10, 2013
- Yes, this is for LASIK at a very well-known university hospital in the Philadelphia area.
- I am paying using my FSA, and I am not using health insurance at all for this procedure.
- They are not currently able to give me new surgery date; the coordinator said he wasn't 100% certain that there would be a date in August***
- They only do this once a month
- I did get a break down, in writing, of the total cost of the surgery and what exactly it included. However, the consent forms and agreement for the surgery were to be signed (before sedation) on the day of surgery, which didn't happen. The deposit, as I was told, was for locking in the surgery date and time.
- The large payment was on a CC, the deposit was on a visa debit card.
- I did ask for a refund via email for both payments; the surgery coordinator danced around it but ultimately said via email: "I’m figuring out the correct procedure for refunding money to you (talking with the billing office already)." After I got the email, I called the billing "office" for this surgery center, and the person I talked to was very defensive. She said she would have to check with someone, refused to give me that someone's contact info or say who she actually needed to call... she's the only person in the office and confirmed that it was the first time she was hearing about this. I'm trying not to be overly paranoid, but I do want to get my ducks in a row to make sure I get this money back.
I agree, iminurmefi, that this is not good, which is precisely why I am looking into getting this done elsewhere. The place I'm looking into is also well-regarded (my friend also got his LASIK there and had a great experience) and they do the surgery several times a week.
***There's an additional wrench in the works: I only have until September 15th to use my FSA funds from the previous year on this surgery (long story, I know the laws have changed by my employer is honoring this anyway), so if this happens again I will almost surely be losing huge portion of FSA funds (with nothing else to spend them on).
posted by ancient star at 10:56 AM on July 10, 2013
Response by poster: I also called the PAG health care "section" linked in iminurmefi's response and they were unable to tell me whether this was illegal, but encouraged me to file a complaint anyway.
posted by ancient star at 11:04 AM on July 10, 2013
posted by ancient star at 11:04 AM on July 10, 2013
I work for a surgeon. Call both card companies, explain the situation and ask for a chargeback. Our patients sign paperwork stating that the deposit is not refundable, and people are still able to get their deposits refunded through the credit card companies. They didn't provide the service that you paid for and are not able to accommodate you in a timely manner, and above all, this was through no fault of your own.
posted by tatiana wishbone at 11:18 AM on July 10, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by tatiana wishbone at 11:18 AM on July 10, 2013 [8 favorites]
It's possible that they are simply trying to get people internally to sign off on a refund. How many days is it since: a) they cancelled the procedure, and b) you asked for a refund?
posted by zippy at 11:20 AM on July 10, 2013
posted by zippy at 11:20 AM on July 10, 2013
Yes. Do a charge back on the credit card(s).
I had a similar situation with a medical provider where they simply wouldn't listen to reason. Provide a thorough but concise explanation stating that you've tried all avenues to resolve this but they aren't cooperating and you need resolution.
I got my money back.
posted by xiaolongbao at 11:52 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
I had a similar situation with a medical provider where they simply wouldn't listen to reason. Provide a thorough but concise explanation stating that you've tried all avenues to resolve this but they aren't cooperating and you need resolution.
I got my money back.
posted by xiaolongbao at 11:52 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
This is all since "yesterday"? It really doesn't seem to me at all improbable or unreasonable that they'd have a few internal hoops to go through before they process your refund. I think you might be overreacting a little if you're thinking of filing complaints and so forth when essentially all you've been told is "we're working on it."
posted by yoink at 12:12 PM on July 10, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by yoink at 12:12 PM on July 10, 2013 [6 favorites]
They don't want to refund your money because - unless terms have changed in the time since i last signed an agreement - they will lose some of the processing fee once payments are closed for the day.
At least the way it used to be, there was a grace period during which you could reverse a charge and the credit card company didn't take their discount fee. This is dim in my memory but as I recall it wasn't the full 1.8-3% but you didn't get the whole amount back either.
As others say above, if they don't get their shit together by tomorrow I'd go ahead and do a chargeback.
posted by phearlez at 1:19 PM on July 10, 2013
At least the way it used to be, there was a grace period during which you could reverse a charge and the credit card company didn't take their discount fee. This is dim in my memory but as I recall it wasn't the full 1.8-3% but you didn't get the whole amount back either.
As others say above, if they don't get their shit together by tomorrow I'd go ahead and do a chargeback.
posted by phearlez at 1:19 PM on July 10, 2013
This might be more of a thing of who is authorized to do the refund. Internal hoops and all that.
Nag them for a day or two then do the chargeback. But note that it may take several business days for the money to show back up in your account. (I do refunds at work sometimes, and the banks take their sweet time.)
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 1:22 PM on July 10, 2013
Nag them for a day or two then do the chargeback. But note that it may take several business days for the money to show back up in your account. (I do refunds at work sometimes, and the banks take their sweet time.)
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 1:22 PM on July 10, 2013
Best answer: Not directly answering your question, but under no circumstances get LASIK done somewhere where it is only done once a month. Get a refund and move on.
posted by karlos at 5:30 PM on July 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by karlos at 5:30 PM on July 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
It seems to me rescheduling could and would happen anywhere surgeries are performed: you can't guarantee a surgery date. Shit happens and this is not an arena where "the show must go on".
posted by latkes at 9:27 AM on July 10, 2013