What's normal in the first few weeks of AA
July 18, 2008 6:40 PM   Subscribe

Can someone who's been there, or is close to someone who's been there, relate to me how the first few weeks in recovery from alcohol abuse in an AA type typically play out? My partner is going through this, and I'm feeling pretty confused, abandoned, and (I'm ashamed to say) a little angry.

My wife and I (late 30s) had fallen into a pattern of drinking way too much on most nights. I'd consider it pretty heavy drinking -- about a bottle of wine each, supplemented with a couple of beers, between dinner and when we went to bed around midnight. So we decided to cut it out about a week ago. I haven't found it difficult at all to eliminate the booze, but my wife felt the need to go to AA meetings because she's been having serious cravings, etc. I support that decision, but I'm confused about how all of this is supposed to work. She's been going to up to 3 meetings a day, hanging out at the recovery center even when there isn't a meeting, going out at night with fellow AA-ers, and so on. She's even taken our young kids to the center when she felt the need to go hang out there while I was at work. The latter makes me especially uncomfortable because lots of people at this recovery center are homeless and generally really down and out, and I'm not sure that's a setting that my 4 and 8 year olds need to be exposed to. But my wife says she *needs* to do this for recovery, so I don't feel like it's my place to question it. That said, I'm suddenly facing two very confused kids, have missed a bunch of work to accomodate meetings, and basically haven't seen my wife for days.

So my first question is whether this level of involvement with the 12-steppers is within the range of what might be considered typical. My second question has to do with alcohol withdrawal symptoms. As I said, we stopped drinking a little over a week ago, and my wife is still complaining of nausea, shakes, sweats, etc. Is that even possible? And if she's having such severe withdrawals, wouldn't it be wise to check into a residential detox center (she's steadfastly refused to do this)?

Thanks for any input, and just to head off the obvious suggestion I'll let you know that I already have an appointment with a therapist scheduled for myself next week. Wife is also in therapy and has been for a few months for issues unrelated (at least not directly related) to alcohol. E-mail me at plantbot@gmail.com if you'd rather not post publicly.
posted by anonymous to Human Relations (24 answers total) 7 users marked this as a favorite
al-anon. and quickly for you
posted by beckish at 6:51 PM on July 18, 2008 [3 favorites]

First off, IANAD. That being said, alcohol withdrawal is indeed what it sounds like. No personal experience with it, but I've seen plenty of friends and family members go through it over the years. Outpatient, rather than residential, treatment with librium is pretty standard in those cases, and can make the patient feel better within a couple days.
posted by chez shoes at 7:05 PM on July 18, 2008

I would be glad to talk to you about this over email, it's in my profile.
posted by The Straightener at 7:17 PM on July 18, 2008

I've known some people who attend AA, but that's as close as it gets for me. Oh, and a drug/alcohol counsellor in the family.

Adding shame to your anger, well, I question that, and I don't know what you're angry about. I would be angry about this:

>She's even taken our young kids to the center when she felt the need to go hang out there while I was at work. The latter makes me especially uncomfortable because lots of people at this recovery center are homeless and generally really down and out, and I'm not sure that's a setting that my 4 and 8 year olds need to be exposed to. But my wife says she *needs* to do this for recovery, so I don't feel like it's my place to question it.

I've seen some AA meetings (been there for people's birthday cakes.) I would not want to be there if I were a kid. I am not a parent, but I would feel very uncomfortable with the idea of kids, at least at the meetings I've seen. Creepy. Not for kids.
posted by Listener at 7:19 PM on July 18, 2008

we stopped drinking a little over a week ago, and my wife is still complaining of nausea, shakes, sweats, etc. Is that even possible?

Possible, sure. But it's really not consistent with the amount of drinking you've described. Someone who stops drinking and has severe withdrawal symptoms, or any symptoms for more than a couple of days, has been drinking much more than "about a bottle of wine... supplemented with a couple of beers." And not "most nights," but every night, and possibly during the day as well.

So either your wife was drinking more than you were aware of, or something (whether physical or psychological) beyond the simple physiology of giving up booze is making her either experience symptoms or feel the need to claim to have symptoms.
posted by staggernation at 7:30 PM on July 18, 2008

AA is a cult. I spent a year in it and it's a year wasted of my life I'll never get back. Don't let her make it a lifetime thing. It can suck her in and make her one of them. There are science and medical and REALITY based treatments out there if she needs it. Mail me if you need help with this.
posted by pieoverdone at 7:48 PM on July 18, 2008 [1 favorite]

AA isn't a cult, but some members become cultish obsessive. The alcohol is replaced.
posted by Mblue at 8:06 PM on July 18, 2008 [1 favorite]

This question makes my spidey sense tingle. I am not sure what is the matter with your wife, but I think she should probably see a doctor.
posted by ikkyu2 at 8:09 PM on July 18, 2008 [3 favorites]

Mblue and staggernation has it. See what you can do to get your wife's physician involved and prescribing a course of action for you and your family. If she's having the type of withdrawal symptoms you describe and she reports, she's likely been drinking much, much more than you originally supposed. Treatment, formalized, can help. So can Big Pharma, if you want to go that route. Surrounding one's self with a bunch of other folks struggling with the same issue can be empowering when it goes right, but more often AA can be a big hole of other failers struggling.

Help your wife regain focus on your family. Bring your children close and be honest, but exposure the way you describe is something you want to prevent. See your MD. See another MD. See a therapist. Go for residential treatment if it comes to that. Stay engaged, stay close. Take time off to be at home, with her and with them. Take time off to go to therapy, but check out of the show you're being shown.
posted by cior at 8:13 PM on July 18, 2008

On preview: see ikkyu2.
posted by cior at 8:14 PM on July 18, 2008

I'm just going to kind of shoot from the hip here and hopefully I'll answer your questions along the way.
* Your wife's symptoms are normal for someone who is a heavy drinker. I had a relative who was detoxed for a week in intensive care. It took him five full days to regain consciousness and the ability to carry on a (weak) conversation. That doesn't mean she shouldn't see a Doctor - she absolutely should. But having those kind of symptoms is not abnormal.
* Unless you live in a small town, there are likely to be multiple AA groups she can attend. If she's attending a group where she's not comfortable, she should try another group. I attended meetings with this relative as a gesture of support, and different places had radically different meetings.
* Mblue has it right. Alcoholics have obsessive personalities, and the alcohol addiction often gets replaced with a cigarette, coffee, work or meeting addiction. The key is to channel that personality into something less destructive than drinking. I don't know or care if AA is a cult. What I've seen is that it's helped people whose lives were going down the tubes to get better.
* The number of meetings your wife is attending seems high to me, but I'm no expert. One of the key things for any person going to AA means going to a lot of meetings. Some people need a meeting every day, especially in the beginning, but multiple meetings per day seem unusual.
* People in AA are realistic about the other alcoholics in the group. There is no breathalyzer test at the door, so they understand that some people literally go get drunk after the meeting. I would never recommend that you violate your wife's privacy, but I would recommend that you be mindful of whether or not she's drinking. AA can be a place to meet alcoholics who are still drinking.
* The stories told in AA are frequently raw and emotional. I saw kids at some of the meetings, but I very much got the idea that the mothers at those meetings didn't have a choice. Your wife does. I wouldn't take my kids to an AA meeting.
* Like beckish says, you should attend al-anon. They'll give you a better idea of what to expect than you'll get here.
posted by cnc at 9:06 PM on July 18, 2008 [2 favorites]

You may want to look at this response I had in another alcoholism thread. Email is in profile. Feel free anytime.
posted by netbros at 9:13 PM on July 18, 2008 [1 favorite]

My ex-husband went to AA and NA and yes, in the beginning, he attended meetings everyday - sometimes twice a day, although probably not three times a day. He did what he needed to do to stay sober.

Like cnc, I also do not care if people think AA is a cult. I think it's probably one of the most helpful, loving, healing things invented in the twentieth century and anyone who can get any recovery time at all is a success as far as I'm concerned. I went to al-anon and coda meetings for awhile, and they were equally helpful - I really recommend it if you don't want to go to AA yourself.

Both of us experienced anger and fear and went through a real emotional rollercoaster. It wasn't a straight shot to recovery - there were lapses, but they occurred less and less as time went on. You will probably both be feeling a lot of the emotions that we normally mask when we self-medicate on alcohol or drugs.

Good luck to you and your family.
posted by gt2 at 9:23 PM on July 18, 2008

I do know a few alcoholics who attended meetings twice or three times a day, not only at the beginning of drying out, but whenever they felt particularly vulnerable.

Bringing the kids seems thoroughly inappropriate. They don't belong there.

I agree with those who say that your wife's doctor should be involved in her recovery.

Al-Anon for you might be a very good idea. I know the last thing you probably feel you need is more 12-step right now, but it's designed to help people who find themselves in this sort of situation and ask themselves questions like those you have. Your wife's problem with alcohol seems to have been much more serious than yours. The criteria for Al-Anon is that you are affected by someone's else's drinking. Sounds like you are.

Good luck and well done. I hope things get easier, and soon. I do think you both should find ways to insulate your children from this as best you can.
posted by Miko at 9:28 PM on July 18, 2008

I'm a recovering alcoholic who has been sober 6 years through AA.

I 2nd beckish's suggestion for Al-Anon as that may give you a much greater understanding of what your wife may be going thorugh

Your first question is a tricky one because what's considered excessive for some can be necessary for another. When I first got sober, I followed the suggestion of 90 meetings in 90 days which is exactly what it sounds like - one meeting a day for 90 days. I didn't feel the need to go more than that, but that doesn't mean someone else wouldn't. There's no hard and fast rule. In fact, there are no rules or requirements at all (other than the desire to stop drinking), so a person is advised to do what they feel is necessary to stay sober and to follow the suggestions of people who have some time and experience with the program. Your wife may be doing this, or being so newly sober, she may simply not know what's appropriate for her so she's erring on the side of caution. Regardless, it's not uncommon for those who are newly sober to really dive into the program. Many feel safe with an immersion approach, and for many people (though not all, but they are a small minority at least at the meetings I attend) they are able to lessen that amount considerably over time. Personally, I did the "90 in 90" as mentioned above and carried on with (almost) daily attendance for a couple of months after that. I found out which meetings I enjoyed attending and got the most out of, and stuck to those, and slowly, and without even realizing it, was able to ease up on the meeting attendance while still living a healthy and sober lifestyle. Now, I attend one or (occasionally) two meetings a week and have been doing so for about two years. However, I'd caution you to not hold that up to your wife and say, "See? This guy only has to go once a week. Why can't you?" The only person who can determine what your wife needs to do to stay sober is your wife. She needs to work her own program.

I can't answer whether it's appropriate for your children to be at the center or not. Were I in your shoes, I'd share the same concerns. However, I will say that in the six years I've been attending meetings, yes I've seen plenty of homeless and down and out, but I've rarely seen any problems. Remember, the vast majority of people go there because they are sick, they want to get help, and AA meetings and centers are an excellent place to do so. Still, rough and tumble is rough and tumble. Profane language is not entirely uncommon at some meetings. There can be all manner of personalities present and, quite frankly, your children may hear some stories that you feel they shouldn't hear. It's impossible for anyone here to say, but it's worth discussing with your wife, and perhaps checking out the meeting yourself. Also, in my experience at least, meeting attendees tend to be well aware when children are present which means a) many of them will tone it down and b) some of the people with sober time and who are more familiar with the environment might well tell your wife whether or not it's appropriate and be able to offer suggestions and alternatives.

As to alcohol withdrawal, it rears it's head in ugly ways. I had a TREMENDOUSLY difficult time sleeping for the first two weeks of sobriety, but nothing else. Other people I know had it far worse - delerium tremens, nausea, shaking, etc... Whatever the case, it's not something to really mess around with. If you have any concerns at all, see a physician - particularly if they don't show signs of ceasing.

Couple points to close out with. I've read a few responses here suggesting that AA is a cult, and I won't refute or agree with that assessment. AA stresses the fact that it's a program of attraction - not promotion. There ARE some (but again - a small minority in my experience) within the program who forget that. They can practice the program with cult like fervor (often times because they don't really know what else to do) and insist they know the ONLY way to get sober, and try to push it on others. I have also seen a lot of those people drink again. While I can't say why this happens, it just seems to me like that sort of program would be incredibly hard to sustain. Those that do stay sober like this - well, hats off to them but (from this drunk's perspective at least) it can't be very satisfying. You get sober to live, after all. You don't live to get sober. Regardless, there's lots of voices in the choir, so it's not as if these folks rule the school. AA is for anyone who has a desire to stop drinking, period. It does not set out to deliberately try and convert anyone into anything.

Lastly, early sobriety can be a very traumatic and confusing time. Not only are you dealing with the physical and mental effects of alcohol withdrawal, but you're having to deal with life in a manner with which you're completely unfamiliar or have wholly forgotten. Don't worry too much if your wife's behavior seems quite erratic at first. There are many who will tell you that they were far worse. However, most people get better as they stay sober. There's no timetable for this, and it's often a slow progression over time, but it does occur. So, don't worry too much. Your wife has just had one of her best friends suddenly removed from her life and she's learning how to adjust. Just remember that while alcoholism is a progressive disease, sobriety is progressive too.

If you're so inclined, feel free to Mefi mail me should you need any more information.
posted by Rewind at 9:47 PM on July 18, 2008 [11 favorites]

Just chiming in to agree with everything Rewind said, except I'm 9 months sober and still hit 3 meetings a week or so.
posted by Roach at 10:30 PM on July 18, 2008 [1 favorite]

There are some great comments in this thread.

I think it's also worth remembering that for a lot of people, getting sober is profoundly disconcerting. Without the tether of alcohol, people feel lost, and if you're going to AA, some folks have a tendency to latch on to AA instead of latching on to sobriety. It's a 12 step program, not a religion, but you do get people who embrace it with the fervour of the recently converted.

If you've ever been friends with anyone who's recently "been saved" you may be familiar with how that works. Suddenly, Jesus is the topic of every conversation, their pastor is the greatest man currently walking the earth, nobody understands them like their new fellowship friends, their particular religion is The One True Way, and by the way have you accepted Christ as your personal saviour? Ad nauseum.

Also, you know, it's very safe in there. It's a compelling place to be if you're feeling vulnerable, lost or lacking direction. AA excels in providing direction.

Most people scale back as they become more comfortable with and confident in their sobriety. Sort of like how new parents eventually re-discover other topics of conversation besides weight gain and dirty diaper counts.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:18 AM on July 19, 2008

"This question makes my spidey sense tingle. ..."
posted by ikkyu2 at 11:09 PM on July 18

For once, I'm in complete agreement with ikkyu2.

"... As I said, we stopped drinking a little over a week ago, and my wife is still complaining of nausea, shakes, sweats, etc. Is that even possible? And if she's having such severe withdrawals, wouldn't it be wise to check into a residential detox center (she's steadfastly refused to do this)? ..."
posted by anonymous to human relations

I'm not an alcoholic, but I've had my share of drama with an ex-wife who was. Here's some of what I learned.

Some studies suggest that alcohol hits women differently, and generally a lot harder, than men. IANAD, but medical detox is usually only medically necessary for alcoholics experiencing delirium tremens; medical detox and supervision are necessary in such cases to manage the high mortality associated with severe withdrawal from alcohol. Short of that, voluntary withdrawal from alcohol can be physically unpleasant, and some of that unpleasantness can be mitigated by medications, but whether or not your wife needs residential detox is something only a doctor should decide, based on physical examination and discussion.

"... Wife is also in therapy and has been for a few months for issues unrelated (at least not directly related) to alcohol. ..."

I'm glad nobody here in AskMe has really jumped you on the basis of that statement. In a few weeks or months, you may see that this explanatory note says a lot, that you don't see, for yourself, now.

Alcohol is many things for many people, but one thing it is, in large amounts, for almost everyone, is a terrific anesthetic, as in "n. 1. An agent that causes loss of sensation with or without the loss of consciousness.". A person who has gotten used to a lot of alcohol on a daily basis, can find that life without it suddenly hurts, in many ways that reinforce physical symptoms of withdrawal. Anxiety and other emotional and mental conditions that a person was self-medicating with alcohol, can suddenly appear in force, in addition to the physical symptoms that alcohol cessation can produce. And compounding all that is the situation where a brain bathed in alcohol regularly for months takes a while to start working anywhere near normally, on a chemical and electrical basis, once the alcohol is eliminated.

So, for a lot of people coming off regular alcohol use, things tend to seem to be getting worse, not better, for a while. For many, the AA methodology in the early weeks is mainly a promise of better days ahead, that they try to trust, while the present sucks way worse than drinking ever did. I suspect that your wife is deep in this craptastic first hand experience of AA at the moment.

"... I'd consider it pretty heavy drinking -- about a bottle of wine each, supplemented with a couple of beers, between dinner and when we went to bed around midnight. ..."

The drinking you know about, is not necessarily all the drinking she was doing. Women are often, more than men, very clever at hiding their drinking. But, FWIW, it doesn't really matter how much or how often she was drinking, what does matter is that she was drinking enough that she felt it was impairing her life, and wanted to stop. I mention this, because if it comes out later that she was a "secret drinker," you shouldn't be too surprised. What you need to be thinking about, is if she was and is capable of being a good parent, and especially a safe parent, while kicking alcohol out of her life.

You have to try to understand the stigma of alcoholism can be worse for women, as mothers and caregivers, than it is for men. Call it the Britney Spears effect, or whatever else you like. Whatever you call it, it is often a lot harder for women to admit their impairment as a parent, than it is for men to do so, and it is tough enough to do so for men. As a present example, and not to be judgmental but illustrative, in the first person, in the case of your family, if both you and your wife were getting blasted nightly for months, there must have been times when neither of you would have been quick to react to a fire in the night, or might not have heard if your kids had suddenly developed a major health problem, or been in shape to evaluate that, and perhaps take them to an emergency room. Be honest with yourself about this - a home where all the adults are regularly drinking heavily is a tough billet for kids, period. Getting in front of the facts, as they might involve you, too, as a parent, is part of understanding the stigma your wife might be experiencing. But it is important to do it, to be able to reach out, honestly, for help that your family may need.

I say this, because I've seen, in Al Anon, some really hard to understand family dynamics, where children became vehicles to express facets of their parents addictions and problems. Your wife taking 4 and 8 year old children to AA meetings several times a day recalls a similar story I heard years ago, from the child of a woman who did the same things. Her mother was literally afraid to recount all the crap that had happened while she was drunk, and by taking her kids to meetings, was trying, however badly, to provide them some help, too, and maybe, to get them to do some of her talking for her.

But enough about your wife and family, for a minute. Let's talk about you, anonymous, because you want to:

"... The latter makes me especially uncomfortable because lots of people at this recovery center are homeless and generally really down and out, and I'm not sure that's a setting that my 4 and 8 year olds need to be exposed to. But my wife says she *needs* to do this for recovery, so I don't feel like it's my place to question it. That said, I'm suddenly facing two very confused kids, have missed a bunch of work to accomodate meetings, and basically haven't seen my wife for days. ..."

First off, just because you're not having the shakes like your wife is, doesn't mean you are at the top of your game, either, anonymous. You're suddenly thinking that regularly seeing homeless people up close might not be a good setting for your kids? Could be your own brain is starting to work differently, sans alcohol, but it could be weeks before it functions completely normally, based on the amount of daily alcohol you were absorbing, too. Consider that, fairly, in thinking about how this is all coming down for your family.

Are you really in shape to parent your kids, support your wife, and hold down a job, all essentially alone, if that is what your family needs, in coming weeks or months? What's your inventory of helpers, if any, and what is your strategy for accessing them, if your family needs help, long term, in the coming weeks and months? You're a week or so into what may be a long, long road, and these are not idle questions.

Next, the confusion your kids are showing now, may be just the tip of the iceberg, in coming weeks and months. The hard truth is that a lot of marriages don't survive substance abuse recovery. Here's hoping yours does. Mine didn't.

Recovery, in the sense the word is used in AA, is a lifelong process, and one that often changes a person so much, that they aren't able to participate in the relationships that they had before addiction became part of their lives, any more. Or perhaps they discover, sometimes along with other people in their relationships, that the basis of the relationship they had was not substantive, and the relationship, itself, doesn't survive, because it wasn't based on reality. Even if people in recovery are committed to family relationships, there can be a period where they simply aren't able to be a parent, or a spouse. In my experience, nobody can really say where a recovery process is going, particularly in terms of family relationships, until it kind of goes there. There are other methodologies of treatment than AA and Al Anon, but, from what you have written, you are kind of in the position of a person with a spouse wounded in drive by shooting - you are in a tough spot to be shopping for treatment alternatives. Be aware that many people start and stop treatment programs, repeatedly, before finding an approach that "works." There is no one "best" treatment method. But new methodologies such as CRA or CRAFT - Community Reinforcement Approach and Family Training, have shown some clear benefits for helping families cope with the stress of addiction, so looking for therapists familiar with that approach may be warranted.

Good luck with all this. See that therapist. Get your wife to a doctor, who is familiar with substance abuse. Help her find treatment that works for her, and reach out for the help you need to get your family through this, if you can.

Hold on tight to sunlight.
posted by paulsc at 4:51 AM on July 19, 2008 [7 favorites]

The hard truth is that a lot of marriages don't survive substance abuse recovery. Here's hoping yours does. Mine didn't.

Not to put a downer on your relationship anonymous, but like paulsc, my marriage ultimately didn't survive either. Two years after getting sober, my wife and I began drifting apart. Eight years after getting sober, we divorced. The good news was I was able to go through the process without alcohol.

I mention this, as did Paul, because you are still very early in the process. You have time to consider your family relationships as a part of your, and your wife's, recoveries. I was ignorant about recovery when I entered the process. I had no idea the toll it would have on all my human relationships, not just spousal, but work and extended family even.

As you consider how to move forward, consider plans that involve yourself, your wife, your children, your parents (if still alive), your friends and trusted work associates. The stronger network you have, the better prepared you are to begin living life alcohol free. I applaud your life decision.
posted by netbros at 5:25 AM on July 19, 2008

Just to put a finishing touch on my comment above, communication with your wife and family through your recovery is paramount to successfully staying sober, and to maintaining a healthy relationship. As you work to replace alcohol in your lives, do it together as much as possible. It will really help with long-term support.
posted by netbros at 5:44 AM on July 19, 2008 [1 favorite]

Just to let you know that when I quit drinking, I was pretty sick for at least three weeks. Not DT sick but aching and I had a very hard time regulating my body temp and I was just miserable. Oh and the dreams, man the crazy crazy dreams. I drank daily but not a lot every day so yeah, all bodies are different and people respond to drugs/withdrawal differently. Um I'm a female who quit drinking at age 29 if that helps. Also I think they call that the "pink cloud" when people get all super AA happy at first, I can't remember for sure but I think it's mentioned in the big book. Myself, I went to meetings quite a lot for a year then tapered off the next year and it's been about 4 years since I've gone now. I needed AA when I first quit, lost would be an understatement but as time went on, I felt more and more able to do it on my own as it were. So be patient with her, the first part of sobriety is scary as hell.
posted by yodelingisfun at 12:12 PM on July 19, 2008

As to your first question, yes, your wife's level of involvement in AA in the early stages of sobriety can be considered typical, while agreeably, somewhat excessive. As to your second question, everyone has different levels of withdrawal symptoms and hers could certainly be more severe than what you have experienced, even if you were drinking the same amount. I never felt the need to bring my children to an AA meeting. I'm not sure that it would have benefited them in any way, especially at the young age of your children. Also, my experience included in-house hospital rehab and regular AA attendance, but not 3 times a day. More like 3 to 4 times a week. Anyway, while her AA meeting attendance may seem excessive, don't resent it. She's not a bad person, she's just a sick person trying to get well. I wish your family the best. It's a hard row to hoe. At least you all are making the effort.
posted by wv kay in ga at 4:20 PM on July 19, 2008

Speaking as someone who got brought to AA meetings at the age of 8 (not regularly, but a few), I can say that it wasn't a comfortable experience. It wasn't traumatizing, but I didn't want to be there At All. If you can, ask your kids in an age-appropriate manner how *they* feel when they're at these meeting. They may not be honest, but it's worth a shot.

Ultimately though, I would do what you can to keep them out of the meetings. It's a tough environment for kids, with people who sometimes show up to meetings drunk, disheveled, etc. Plus there's the sheer amount of emotion going on -- a lot of meeting have "talks" (or at least they did when I was a kid) where the recovering person discusses their story and how they knew they hit bottom. It can be very scary for a kid to see adults break down. Especially if it's Mom and there's no one else there to tell them not to worry.
posted by aclevername at 3:01 PM on July 20, 2008 [1 favorite]

Multiple meetings is not out of the ordinary, but I don't know that it is child-appropriate. That's something you'll have to discuss with her, not us. It takes a while for anything to get out of your system. Besides that, it's unrealistic to expect her experience to mirror yours.
posted by CwgrlUp at 3:45 PM on July 27, 2008

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