Madonna and the Whore
July 14, 2008 4:39 PM Subscribe
I have heard people say that when you have been with someone for a long time... the feeling of love changes, ebbs and flows, and takes on certain platonic elements that replace the blood-rush of the honeymoon period. If this is true how can I know whether the cooling of my feelings for my girlfriend is the above or the fact that she's not the one?
I think I might have a hardcore Madonna-and-the-Whore complex that is beginning to impact my life in a negative way. I have a pattern of falling hard for women, pursuing them, getting into relationships with them and inexorably watching my feelings turn from romantic to friendly. This usually takes place over the course of a year or two... I am in my mid-thirties.
During this, I notice myself becoming more and more attracted to other (less suitable as life-partners) women and feeling more and more platonic towards my girlfriend. And even the platonic relationship with my girlfriend becomes something that I only want when I am in the mood, and feel burdened by it when I am busy or interested in hanging out with my other friends. I find myself wishing I could just focus on my personal interests and feel excited when my girlfriend leaves town for a week.
I call it Madonna and the Whore because my girlfriends are women who "I would take home to Mom" but the women who begin to catch my eye as the relationship cools are always the wild and crazy bad-girl types whose current lifestyle probably doesn't lend itself to a long-term relationship but are a lot of fun in the meantime.
Of course, the idea of losing the amazing woman who is my girlfriend seems painful and something to avoid at all costs. Even though this seems to directly contradicts my moment to moment desires.
My question is this: is this a sign that I am not actually in love with my girlfriend or is this a sign that I am stuck with a immature idea of what love should feel like?
When I think of getting engaged to her I panic. When I think of having kids with her I panic. Is this a sign that it's the wrong match? Or the sign that I am guy who needs to grow up? How can I possibly know what to do when the stakes of being wrong either way are so high?
Are there really couples out there whose feelings for each other just get stronger and stronger? Who get married and just *know* they are for each other?
Why don't I ever feel this way about anyone I date?
I think I might have a hardcore Madonna-and-the-Whore complex that is beginning to impact my life in a negative way. I have a pattern of falling hard for women, pursuing them, getting into relationships with them and inexorably watching my feelings turn from romantic to friendly. This usually takes place over the course of a year or two... I am in my mid-thirties.
During this, I notice myself becoming more and more attracted to other (less suitable as life-partners) women and feeling more and more platonic towards my girlfriend. And even the platonic relationship with my girlfriend becomes something that I only want when I am in the mood, and feel burdened by it when I am busy or interested in hanging out with my other friends. I find myself wishing I could just focus on my personal interests and feel excited when my girlfriend leaves town for a week.
I call it Madonna and the Whore because my girlfriends are women who "I would take home to Mom" but the women who begin to catch my eye as the relationship cools are always the wild and crazy bad-girl types whose current lifestyle probably doesn't lend itself to a long-term relationship but are a lot of fun in the meantime.
Of course, the idea of losing the amazing woman who is my girlfriend seems painful and something to avoid at all costs. Even though this seems to directly contradicts my moment to moment desires.
My question is this: is this a sign that I am not actually in love with my girlfriend or is this a sign that I am stuck with a immature idea of what love should feel like?
When I think of getting engaged to her I panic. When I think of having kids with her I panic. Is this a sign that it's the wrong match? Or the sign that I am guy who needs to grow up? How can I possibly know what to do when the stakes of being wrong either way are so high?
Are there really couples out there whose feelings for each other just get stronger and stronger? Who get married and just *know* they are for each other?
Why don't I ever feel this way about anyone I date?
Are there really couples out there whose feelings for each other just get stronger and stronger? Who get married and just *know* they are for each other?
Mr. F and I, but I don't really know as we're representative.
What I do know is that Mr. F had at least a couple of girlfriends back in the day that he was fond enough of, felt generally affectionate towards, and so on, but after a while he just wanted them to go the heck away and stop bugging him. His longest-running relationship prior to me lasted about 18 months. He says he's never felt that way about me and would be perfectly happy sticking around as long as possible.
I'd advise you to stop looking for Bad Girls, Suitable Life-Partners, and Women You'd Take Home to Mother, and just find a partner whom you interest and who keeps you interested. Your mom will love her because she's a good match for you and doesn't mind coming over for Friday-night dinner. You'll love her because she's wild and crazy on the weekends but doesn't embarrass you in front of your sister. And she'll love you because you weren't looking for a Central Casting girlfriend, but a real partner.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 5:09 PM on July 14, 2008 [7 favorites]
Mr. F and I, but I don't really know as we're representative.
What I do know is that Mr. F had at least a couple of girlfriends back in the day that he was fond enough of, felt generally affectionate towards, and so on, but after a while he just wanted them to go the heck away and stop bugging him. His longest-running relationship prior to me lasted about 18 months. He says he's never felt that way about me and would be perfectly happy sticking around as long as possible.
I'd advise you to stop looking for Bad Girls, Suitable Life-Partners, and Women You'd Take Home to Mother, and just find a partner whom you interest and who keeps you interested. Your mom will love her because she's a good match for you and doesn't mind coming over for Friday-night dinner. You'll love her because she's wild and crazy on the weekends but doesn't embarrass you in front of your sister. And she'll love you because you weren't looking for a Central Casting girlfriend, but a real partner.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 5:09 PM on July 14, 2008 [7 favorites]
*Mixed metaphor warning*
I moved to New York 3 years ago. For about a year and a half, my heart jumped every time I stepped outside my apartment. Now, the burning excitement is gone, but it's been displaced by something stronger and more substantial. I feel like I know the city like the back of my hand. It feels like a part of me. When I think about leaving it, I can't imagine life in anywhere else.
I think that's how you know.
But really, what do I know... I'm still single.
posted by specialfriend at 5:18 PM on July 14, 2008 [8 favorites]
I moved to New York 3 years ago. For about a year and a half, my heart jumped every time I stepped outside my apartment. Now, the burning excitement is gone, but it's been displaced by something stronger and more substantial. I feel like I know the city like the back of my hand. It feels like a part of me. When I think about leaving it, I can't imagine life in anywhere else.
I think that's how you know.
But really, what do I know... I'm still single.
posted by specialfriend at 5:18 PM on July 14, 2008 [8 favorites]
To be more clear, I'm saying that maybe the period of excitement gives you period of time where your relationship is invincible, running on pure adrenaline, to try and build something stronger and more substantial. Often you don't get to see what you're left with until the flash flames subside.
posted by specialfriend at 5:21 PM on July 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by specialfriend at 5:21 PM on July 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
I'm a broken record on this score, but the book How to Be an Adult in Relationships was incredibly eye-opening and useful for me when I realized in my mid-30s that I had a series of assumptions about relationships and partners that I wanted to change.
Back to your specific question: yes, there are couples who just *know* they're right for each other. But I think it's only rarely the case that they *know* that from the beginning, or that once they *know,* it's a feeling that never wavers. As I've said elsewhere, I believe that the term "the one" is a misnomer when applied to another person; what it really should be taken to describe is a particular type of relationship -- where you like the person as much as you love them, where your strengths together are greater than the sum of your parts separately (even if you happen to love your time apart), where you both have each other's back regardless of any day-to-day stresses and disagreements.
None of us can tell you if your relationship with your girlfriend fits those criteria; you may not even know yourself, right now. That's fine. You don't have to get married or decide on kids tomorrow. And, as fairytale of los angeles says, you don't need to put women in boxes: Hot Bad Girl, Good Girl to Take Home to Mother, Suitable Future Bearer of Children, whatever (after all, you're not just a Bad Boy, Good Guy, or Sperm Donor, are you?). If you want to find a good partner, you have to first decide to be a good partner -- someone who sees himself as a complete person and who therefore wants to respond intimately to someone else as the complete person they are. That's when you can create -- not just randomly "have," but actively create -- the kind of relationship you seem to seek.
posted by scody at 5:26 PM on July 14, 2008 [9 favorites]
Back to your specific question: yes, there are couples who just *know* they're right for each other. But I think it's only rarely the case that they *know* that from the beginning, or that once they *know,* it's a feeling that never wavers. As I've said elsewhere, I believe that the term "the one" is a misnomer when applied to another person; what it really should be taken to describe is a particular type of relationship -- where you like the person as much as you love them, where your strengths together are greater than the sum of your parts separately (even if you happen to love your time apart), where you both have each other's back regardless of any day-to-day stresses and disagreements.
None of us can tell you if your relationship with your girlfriend fits those criteria; you may not even know yourself, right now. That's fine. You don't have to get married or decide on kids tomorrow. And, as fairytale of los angeles says, you don't need to put women in boxes: Hot Bad Girl, Good Girl to Take Home to Mother, Suitable Future Bearer of Children, whatever (after all, you're not just a Bad Boy, Good Guy, or Sperm Donor, are you?). If you want to find a good partner, you have to first decide to be a good partner -- someone who sees himself as a complete person and who therefore wants to respond intimately to someone else as the complete person they are. That's when you can create -- not just randomly "have," but actively create -- the kind of relationship you seem to seek.
posted by scody at 5:26 PM on July 14, 2008 [9 favorites]
There is no such thing as "the one". There are usually several "one"s - or more.
Don't "grow up" too much or you will be stuck in a marriage because of social pressure or the ridiculous "the clock is ticking" syndrome.
Stop with the "suitable life-partner" crap and live your life. When you stop worrying about "looking for the one" you'll find your life can be more satisfying and fulfilling.
Ever hear a guy who's about to get married say "I've had my fun, it's time to settle down"?
That's the guy who really doesn't want "the fun" to end.
posted by Zambrano at 5:26 PM on July 14, 2008
Don't "grow up" too much or you will be stuck in a marriage because of social pressure or the ridiculous "the clock is ticking" syndrome.
Stop with the "suitable life-partner" crap and live your life. When you stop worrying about "looking for the one" you'll find your life can be more satisfying and fulfilling.
Ever hear a guy who's about to get married say "I've had my fun, it's time to settle down"?
That's the guy who really doesn't want "the fun" to end.
posted by Zambrano at 5:26 PM on July 14, 2008
At the risk of sounding boring and making LOVE sound boring, the pitter-patter of my heart toward my husband faded over time. It was called hormones. The pitter-patter is meant to get one into a relationship, and lead to the desire to create a family together...as years go by,relationships are meant to grow as we as individuals grow...emotionally, personally, spiritually. At some point in my relationship with my husband I began to focus on deeper things about both him and me. I grew up and became a better, less self-focused mate and noticed less whether HE was doing/being exactly what I wanted to make me "feel" the way I wanted to feel. Ultimately for me it's been spiritual and personal growth that has made our relationship what it is now. And his focus is similar to mine...probably because we share personal and spiritual goals and values. Boring? Occasionally, I suppose. Mostly we love to spend most of our free time together. We walk and talk and laugh and love our grown children together. Each of us has learned to want the very best for the other. (Not all of the time...but more always.) It's good and joyous and I wouldn't have anyone but him...and me.
posted by mumstheword at 5:43 PM on July 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by mumstheword at 5:43 PM on July 14, 2008 [3 favorites]
Do you think maybe you're afraid of the emotional intimacy that tends to develop as the honeymoon period hormones fade?
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 5:50 PM on July 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 5:50 PM on July 14, 2008 [2 favorites]
What scody said.
Also, I'll float an idea that somebody posted here recently, that women decide to get married when they meet "the right guy" (who does it for them in terms of broadly satisfying whatever criteria they have in their heads), whereas men decide to get married to whoever they happen to be dating at the time that they become ready to settle down.
In that sense, I think your wandering eye for the bad girls is more of a symptom than a cause of your current reluctance to settle down. You're looking for a pretext, a way out, and your imagined sexy, exciting fast times reflects a kind of desire to get your wild oats out of your system.
I'll add that I can sympathise with your feelings of "When I think of getting engaged to her I panic. When I think of having kids with her I panic. Is this a sign that it's the wrong match? Or the sign that I am guy who needs to grow up?"but cannot offer an answer, except that I've felt that way with all of my long-term girlfriends, and yet if I were dating any of them now, I'd probably be alright with the idea of settling down with any of them (and they were vastly different from each other).
I guess there's just such a strong air of finality about making that kind of decision - "so, this is what it's going to be now, this is where the line ends?" that it's easy to get wet feet until you realise that just about anybody who has a decent, warm personality can become "the one" because it's more about what efforts you both put into things than it is about some kind of freakish chemical connection.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:59 PM on July 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Also, I'll float an idea that somebody posted here recently, that women decide to get married when they meet "the right guy" (who does it for them in terms of broadly satisfying whatever criteria they have in their heads), whereas men decide to get married to whoever they happen to be dating at the time that they become ready to settle down.
In that sense, I think your wandering eye for the bad girls is more of a symptom than a cause of your current reluctance to settle down. You're looking for a pretext, a way out, and your imagined sexy, exciting fast times reflects a kind of desire to get your wild oats out of your system.
I'll add that I can sympathise with your feelings of "When I think of getting engaged to her I panic. When I think of having kids with her I panic. Is this a sign that it's the wrong match? Or the sign that I am guy who needs to grow up?"but cannot offer an answer, except that I've felt that way with all of my long-term girlfriends, and yet if I were dating any of them now, I'd probably be alright with the idea of settling down with any of them (and they were vastly different from each other).
I guess there's just such a strong air of finality about making that kind of decision - "so, this is what it's going to be now, this is where the line ends?" that it's easy to get wet feet until you realise that just about anybody who has a decent, warm personality can become "the one" because it's more about what efforts you both put into things than it is about some kind of freakish chemical connection.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:59 PM on July 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Are there really couples out there whose feelings for each other just get stronger and stronger? Who get married and just *know* they are for each other?
Well, me and Mr Desjardins are one of them (we've been together nearly 4 years and are engaged). However, we still have sexual fantasies about other people, but that's all they are, fantasies. They make for interesting conversation when we're naked. I don't think that being sexually attracted to other people is a sign that you're not with the right person. I think it's a sign that you have a pulse. If you're no longer sexually attracted to your girlfriend at all, that's another question.
I find myself wishing I could just focus on my personal interests and feel excited when my girlfriend leaves town for a week.
This seems normal too and is indicative that you need more space. Do you live together? Go get a hobby that gets you out of the house and encourage her to do the same (different hobbies, natch).
posted by desjardins at 6:00 PM on July 14, 2008
Well, me and Mr Desjardins are one of them (we've been together nearly 4 years and are engaged). However, we still have sexual fantasies about other people, but that's all they are, fantasies. They make for interesting conversation when we're naked. I don't think that being sexually attracted to other people is a sign that you're not with the right person. I think it's a sign that you have a pulse. If you're no longer sexually attracted to your girlfriend at all, that's another question.
I find myself wishing I could just focus on my personal interests and feel excited when my girlfriend leaves town for a week.
This seems normal too and is indicative that you need more space. Do you live together? Go get a hobby that gets you out of the house and encourage her to do the same (different hobbies, natch).
posted by desjardins at 6:00 PM on July 14, 2008
The hormonal hot love cannot last forever. It sure is nice while it's going on though. However, it can develop into a mutual respect and just wanting to be with each other. After my experience in a 23 year marriage, I much prefer the relationship I'm in now. We have been together 6 years, the hormonal hotness has ebbed, but I still prefer him to all others. Don't be pressured into engagement or marriage, if that doesn't seem right for you. Just go with flow. If you're not happy, it just wasn't meant to be. I'm more content now than I ever been.
posted by wv kay in ga at 6:02 PM on July 14, 2008
posted by wv kay in ga at 6:02 PM on July 14, 2008
Are there really couples out there whose feelings for each other just get stronger and stronger?
Yes. This is what usually happens if you are in a nurturing. loving relationship. I love my husband more today than the day I married him. I've had my problems (one of the major ones if feeling that we weren't compatible enough*) but we've grown closer over time, not further apart. When you are bonded with a partner that you love and respect, and enjoy one another's company and have fun together, this is what happens.
*You don't need to be as compatible as you think. You don't have to like everything the other person likes in order to have a fulfilling relationship. Usually couples compliment one another.
posted by LoriFLA at 6:36 PM on July 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
Yes. This is what usually happens if you are in a nurturing. loving relationship. I love my husband more today than the day I married him. I've had my problems (one of the major ones if feeling that we weren't compatible enough*) but we've grown closer over time, not further apart. When you are bonded with a partner that you love and respect, and enjoy one another's company and have fun together, this is what happens.
*You don't need to be as compatible as you think. You don't have to like everything the other person likes in order to have a fulfilling relationship. Usually couples compliment one another.
posted by LoriFLA at 6:36 PM on July 14, 2008 [4 favorites]
(i think LoriFLA meant *complement*, but compliments are nice, too)
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:17 PM on July 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:17 PM on July 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
The feelings do indeed get stronger with greater emotional intimacy. Maintaining the sex life...that takes some work.
posted by desuetude at 9:57 PM on July 14, 2008
posted by desuetude at 9:57 PM on July 14, 2008
Well, me and Mr Desjardins are one of them (we've been together nearly 4 years and are engaged). However, we still have sexual fantasies about other people, but that's all they are, fantasies.
May I put out there that even if they were realities, the important thing would be you being able to share them together honestly and openly rather than them not being only fantasies? I'm not saying all relationships should be open, but that some can be without taking anything away from the first or primary relationship.
posted by Cricket at 10:47 PM on July 14, 2008
May I put out there that even if they were realities, the important thing would be you being able to share them together honestly and openly rather than them not being only fantasies? I'm not saying all relationships should be open, but that some can be without taking anything away from the first or primary relationship.
posted by Cricket at 10:47 PM on July 14, 2008
Being with someone beautiful doesn't hurt, either.
posted by GooseOnTheLoose at 10:52 PM on July 14, 2008
posted by GooseOnTheLoose at 10:52 PM on July 14, 2008
Anon, it does sound more like you're "not ready to commit to one person" than "out of love with this person." I don't know how long you've been with this girlfriend. I fell in love with my husband years ago, when we were both married to other people, but we've been together for several years and married for two, and he still makes my heart leap, but that's not the most important thing about our relationship to me. The most important thing is that when he's home, this place is more home to me. I can relax and be who and what I am around him. If you're always on edge, imagining yourself to be someone else, somewhere else, then you're not comfortable in your life. If you feel as though you're locked in a self-destructive pattern, like going after the wild side of life will harm you or take you away from what you need but you can't stop thinking about it, seek counseling. If you think that a less-settled life is what you need, but you're dating girls you can "take home to mom" or because of an image they project because you think you should, then maybe you should start following your own heart and doing what's right for you, not what you "should" be doing.
posted by Cricket at 10:53 PM on July 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Cricket at 10:53 PM on July 14, 2008 [1 favorite]
Eh, I panic at the thought of having children with my husband.
That said - he and I have very strong, very deep feelings for each other. He still makes my heart beat faster when he walks into a room. I'm still very attracted to him, and him to me. There is nothing I enjoy more than holding him.
We've been together for 8 years, now.
Incidentally, I was comparatively a bit of a Wild Girl. Shocked the socks off my now in-laws for a couple years. Go figure.
posted by ysabet at 11:30 PM on July 14, 2008
That said - he and I have very strong, very deep feelings for each other. He still makes my heart beat faster when he walks into a room. I'm still very attracted to him, and him to me. There is nothing I enjoy more than holding him.
We've been together for 8 years, now.
Incidentally, I was comparatively a bit of a Wild Girl. Shocked the socks off my now in-laws for a couple years. Go figure.
posted by ysabet at 11:30 PM on July 14, 2008
Look at the ways that the "bad girls" act. Not the "get drunk all night and do coke with rock stars" thing, but the way they look and act. Set up fantasy scenarios where you make that work. (The new wild girl at work, biker chick, whatever). Have your girlfriend act that way and see what that does for your sex life.
What that will do is allow you to see what it is that keeps you where you are at and whether your partner has qualities that you haven't acknowledged.
The whole crazy fantasy sex thing is a bonus too.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:49 PM on July 14, 2008
What that will do is allow you to see what it is that keeps you where you are at and whether your partner has qualities that you haven't acknowledged.
The whole crazy fantasy sex thing is a bonus too.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:49 PM on July 14, 2008
If you do indeed have this 'Madonna/Whore' issue, then it might be wise to address that problem head on, and see what your relationship is like with that out of the way. You might find that she's where its at; you might realize that you were just making a way out. But give the relationship a chance by trying to experience it for time with some of your negative, relationship-killing behaviors dealt with. And please don't get married yet.
posted by iamkimiam at 6:59 AM on July 15, 2008
posted by iamkimiam at 6:59 AM on July 15, 2008
have you ever heard the expression a lady in the streets but a freak in the bed?......IMO thats what you need.
posted by The1andonly at 8:17 AM on July 15, 2008
posted by The1andonly at 8:17 AM on July 15, 2008
Do yourself and her a favor and do not get married to this woman.
If my husband hadn't married me with similar feelings, it would have saved us both over 10 years of sadness. You're not a bad person for having these feelings, but you should not marry someone when you feel like this.
In my ex's situation, perfectionist tendencies seemed to be a big factor. After our divorce, he is accepting himself as flawed and it has helped in his current relationship. I'm not sure if this is the case for you, but perhaps it is something to look at.
I wish he had had the courage to end our relationship when it didn't feel right to him. I spent 10 years wondering what was wrong with me that our relationship wasn't working. When I realized I had tried everything, I was the one who had to end it. It damaged me and I am still working on healing. If you care at all for your girlfriend, let her find someone who loves her as more than a friend.
Good luck and keep searching for the person who IS right for you, not who you think is right for you.
posted by k8to at 4:14 PM on July 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
If my husband hadn't married me with similar feelings, it would have saved us both over 10 years of sadness. You're not a bad person for having these feelings, but you should not marry someone when you feel like this.
In my ex's situation, perfectionist tendencies seemed to be a big factor. After our divorce, he is accepting himself as flawed and it has helped in his current relationship. I'm not sure if this is the case for you, but perhaps it is something to look at.
I wish he had had the courage to end our relationship when it didn't feel right to him. I spent 10 years wondering what was wrong with me that our relationship wasn't working. When I realized I had tried everything, I was the one who had to end it. It damaged me and I am still working on healing. If you care at all for your girlfriend, let her find someone who loves her as more than a friend.
Good luck and keep searching for the person who IS right for you, not who you think is right for you.
posted by k8to at 4:14 PM on July 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
I think it's rare. I think those people who have that type of relationship are just lucky enough to remain compatible as they change through the years. I've personally "fallen out of love" with every man I've ever been in a relationship with, and I'm starting to think that it's just a natural part of life.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 5:02 PM on July 14, 2008