reign or rein
July 10, 2008 12:05 AM Subscribe
Could someone with access to the OED or some other good source tell me whether the expression is "to hold rein over X" or "to hold reign over X"?
I'm having a surprisingly hard time getting a definitive answer. Maybe it's a less common expression than I thought.
I'm having a surprisingly hard time getting a definitive answer. Maybe it's a less common expression than I thought.
I've actually never heard this expression, so perhaps it isn't as common as you thought.
posted by loiseau at 12:15 AM on July 10, 2008
posted by loiseau at 12:15 AM on July 10, 2008
I can't find "hold rein" or "hold reign" in a full text search of the OED.
posted by grouse at 12:15 AM on July 10, 2008
posted by grouse at 12:15 AM on July 10, 2008
On the other hand there are 11 results for "reign over" and none for "rein over" dating from a 1297 quotation to a recent definition of "wield, v." written by the OED staff. Not really the same as a dictionary entry for "reign" that includes this usage, but useful I hope.
posted by grouse at 12:19 AM on July 10, 2008
posted by grouse at 12:19 AM on July 10, 2008
Response by poster: lia - I'm looking specifically for "hold rei(g)n over." Like "hold sway over." I was thinking it might be an eggcorn because while reins are what you hold, "reign" is often used with "over."
loiseau - yeah, it's interesting. I can find both variants in Google Books, for example, but with few hits in either case.
grouse - I was hoping there'd be something under the entries for reign or rein ("hold" might be in a different tense if the expression actually appears somewhere).
posted by trig at 12:23 AM on July 10, 2008
loiseau - yeah, it's interesting. I can find both variants in Google Books, for example, but with few hits in either case.
grouse - I was hoping there'd be something under the entries for reign or rein ("hold" might be in a different tense if the expression actually appears somewhere).
posted by trig at 12:23 AM on July 10, 2008
Well,
Reign is referential to a king or monarchy, as the word is a derivitive of the Latin word 'rég' meaning king.
Rein alludes to reins such as on a horse, coming from the Latin word 'retinére' meaning to hold back or retain.
So I would assume both work, it just depends on what connotations you want it to have.
posted by baserunner73 at 12:25 AM on July 10, 2008
Reign is referential to a king or monarchy, as the word is a derivitive of the Latin word 'rég' meaning king.
Rein alludes to reins such as on a horse, coming from the Latin word 'retinére' meaning to hold back or retain.
So I would assume both work, it just depends on what connotations you want it to have.
posted by baserunner73 at 12:25 AM on July 10, 2008
I was hoping there'd be something under the entries for reign or rein
Well, there's not, in the definitions at least. There are quotations. I checked all five entries. Sorry.
posted by grouse at 12:31 AM on July 10, 2008
Well, there's not, in the definitions at least. There are quotations. I checked all five entries. Sorry.
posted by grouse at 12:31 AM on July 10, 2008
Namechecking Occam, I've never heard of "reins" referred to in the singular.
posted by rhizome at 12:34 AM on July 10, 2008
posted by rhizome at 12:34 AM on July 10, 2008
Response by poster: Hmm, nice! But on the other hand you can rein something in.
posted by trig at 12:37 AM on July 10, 2008
posted by trig at 12:37 AM on July 10, 2008
I have never heard the expression either. If I were you, I would try to track down somebody whom you have heard using the phrase.
posted by kidbritish at 12:39 AM on July 10, 2008
posted by kidbritish at 12:39 AM on July 10, 2008
I've never heard "hold reign over". I've often seen "reign in" misused for "rein in" meaning "curb". I think you may have mashed up "hold sway over" with the hold-less "reign over" as in "long to reign over us, God save the Queen".
posted by flabdablet at 12:40 AM on July 10, 2008
posted by flabdablet at 12:40 AM on July 10, 2008
I have to say that there are a couple dozen examples of rein, n., being used in the singular.
posted by grouse at 12:41 AM on July 10, 2008
posted by grouse at 12:41 AM on July 10, 2008
I'm very sure that the original was "reign", but that today probably both appear since common incorrect usage gradually becomes accepted. I dont think OED would list phrases, does it? You need an idiom dictionary.
Try this site: which claims to be " compiled from the Cambridge International Dictionary of Idioms and the Cambridge Dictionary of American Idioms"
I'm personally 100 percent sure the original was "reign" because I've never seen "rein" with this same meaning. The meanings would be slightly different but in important ways. Consider all the phrases of similar meaning that "reign" appears in: Reign over me; Reign of fire; all refering to "rule" in an active and objective sense. ON the other hand, "rein" only appears in idioms that mean 'restraint" or "self-restraint" in a passive or subjective sense, as in to "rein oneself in", to NOT exert oneself. Two slightly different meanings for the uses of these words in idioms in which they appear, and to me those different uses seem consistent across their idioms.
In addition to usage and meaning differences, "hold rein over" grammatically and metaphorically doesnt make sense. You can "hold authority" ("reign") but you dont "hold restraint". (If anything people tend to "give" restraint, not "hold" it).
Anyway, thats what I'd argue. But if you want to quote something you'd need an idiom dictionary I guess.
posted by jak68 at 12:43 AM on July 10, 2008
Try this site: which claims to be " compiled from the Cambridge International Dictionary of Idioms and the Cambridge Dictionary of American Idioms"
I'm personally 100 percent sure the original was "reign" because I've never seen "rein" with this same meaning. The meanings would be slightly different but in important ways. Consider all the phrases of similar meaning that "reign" appears in: Reign over me; Reign of fire; all refering to "rule" in an active and objective sense. ON the other hand, "rein" only appears in idioms that mean 'restraint" or "self-restraint" in a passive or subjective sense, as in to "rein oneself in", to NOT exert oneself. Two slightly different meanings for the uses of these words in idioms in which they appear, and to me those different uses seem consistent across their idioms.
In addition to usage and meaning differences, "hold rein over" grammatically and metaphorically doesnt make sense. You can "hold authority" ("reign") but you dont "hold restraint". (If anything people tend to "give" restraint, not "hold" it).
Anyway, thats what I'd argue. But if you want to quote something you'd need an idiom dictionary I guess.
posted by jak68 at 12:43 AM on July 10, 2008
Response by poster: Well, the OED has a fair amount of usage information, including literary quotes, so I was hoping something might turn up. Couldn't find anything in the idiom dictionary or Bartleby. jak68, as far as meaning I think you can argue for either alternative - for example, if you hold the reins in some situation, you have control.
Anyway, clearly this expression is still in its formative phase. I guess the only thing to do is to decide which version I like more, form a coalition of like-minded people, and set about flooding the written world with examples. Remember: you saw it here first!
posted by trig at 1:00 AM on July 10, 2008
Anyway, clearly this expression is still in its formative phase. I guess the only thing to do is to decide which version I like more, form a coalition of like-minded people, and set about flooding the written world with examples. Remember: you saw it here first!
posted by trig at 1:00 AM on July 10, 2008
It's like waiting for the boot to drop off the other foot.
posted by flabdablet at 1:03 AM on July 10, 2008
posted by flabdablet at 1:03 AM on July 10, 2008
According to this link, the Oxford Pocket Thesaurus of Current English, 2008, lists reign over as a synonym for govern.
Not exactly what you wanted, but a search for "hold * over" on Google yields lots of other synonyms for govern in the wildcard spot.
posted by zippy at 1:13 AM on July 10, 2008
Not exactly what you wanted, but a search for "hold * over" on Google yields lots of other synonyms for govern in the wildcard spot.
posted by zippy at 1:13 AM on July 10, 2008
The reference "Garner's Modern American Usage" comes a teeny bit closer in a discussion on the rein/reign entry:
"Like many homophones, these words are frequently mistaken for each other in print—but perhaps no other pair is confused in so many different ways.
Rein in, not reign in, is the correct phrase to "to check, restrain". The metaphorical image is of the rider pulling on the reins of the horse to slow down (i.e. "hold your horses")…
The error also occcurs with the noun forms: one holds the reins, not the reigns."…As further evidence of Murphy's Law at work, the opposite error (rein for reign) occurs as well…"
Your phrase "Hold rei[g]n over" sounds like a homonym mash-up. Two individual phrases "hold the rein[s]" and "reign over", possibly with the moderating influence of "rein in", have been smashed together by people who abuse the language, that is, people like most of us at some point during our lives of speaking and writing.
The closest example I can think of right now is "leap of faith healing", although it has an exact word match, rather than a homonym, at the splice point. Assuming this theory is true then, yup, looks like you can take your pick on which rei[g]n you think best suits your purposes and your new movement.
posted by mdevore at 1:49 AM on July 10, 2008 [1 favorite]
"Like many homophones, these words are frequently mistaken for each other in print—but perhaps no other pair is confused in so many different ways.
Rein in, not reign in, is the correct phrase to "to check, restrain". The metaphorical image is of the rider pulling on the reins of the horse to slow down (i.e. "hold your horses")…
The error also occcurs with the noun forms: one holds the reins, not the reigns."…As further evidence of Murphy's Law at work, the opposite error (rein for reign) occurs as well…"
Your phrase "Hold rei[g]n over" sounds like a homonym mash-up. Two individual phrases "hold the rein[s]" and "reign over", possibly with the moderating influence of "rein in", have been smashed together by people who abuse the language, that is, people like most of us at some point during our lives of speaking and writing.
The closest example I can think of right now is "leap of faith healing", although it has an exact word match, rather than a homonym, at the splice point. Assuming this theory is true then, yup, looks like you can take your pick on which rei[g]n you think best suits your purposes and your new movement.
posted by mdevore at 1:49 AM on July 10, 2008 [1 favorite]
I've heard, instead of "reign over" or "rein over", "rein in", as in, to pull back on the reins (literally) - to curtail or restrict something. As in, "My aunt had to rein in my cousin's use of her bank account."
posted by notsnot at 5:50 AM on July 10, 2008
posted by notsnot at 5:50 AM on July 10, 2008
Personally you reign over things and rein in things.
YMMV and I'm really not answering the question.
posted by bitdamaged at 6:29 AM on July 10, 2008
YMMV and I'm really not answering the question.
posted by bitdamaged at 6:29 AM on July 10, 2008
It is correct to say you give free rein to (ideas, people, etc.), not free reign to. So hold rein over would be the logical opposite.
If you're using Google hits as a language authority, bear in mind that "I couldn't care less" gets 1,280,000 hits, whereas "I could care less" gets 2,300,000.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 7:04 AM on July 10, 2008
If you're using Google hits as a language authority, bear in mind that "I couldn't care less" gets 1,280,000 hits, whereas "I could care less" gets 2,300,000.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 7:04 AM on July 10, 2008
Response by poster: Thanks for all the answers. I should make it clear that what I needed was an actual source - one that I could reference - that defined this one particular expression. It looks like there isn't such a source.
By now I'm quite familiar with pretty much every use of reign and rein that can be found in a dictionary, including "reign over," "rein in," and what have you. :-)
posted by trig at 7:46 AM on July 10, 2008
By now I'm quite familiar with pretty much every use of reign and rein that can be found in a dictionary, including "reign over," "rein in," and what have you. :-)
posted by trig at 7:46 AM on July 10, 2008
In addition to usage and meaning differences, "hold rein over" grammatically and metaphorically doesnt make sense. You can "hold authority" ("reign") but you dont "hold restraint". (If anything people tend to "give" restraint, not "hold" it).
I agree. "to hold rein over people" just doesn't look right. "To hold the reins on the people" is cumbersome but looks better. Unless this is something you're proofing or another author's work, I think the best bet would be to scrap the phrase and start over with something less ambiguous.
posted by Debaser626 at 7:58 AM on July 10, 2008
I agree. "to hold rein over people" just doesn't look right. "To hold the reins on the people" is cumbersome but looks better. Unless this is something you're proofing or another author's work, I think the best bet would be to scrap the phrase and start over with something less ambiguous.
posted by Debaser626 at 7:58 AM on July 10, 2008
Ah, duh, I just wasn't thinking on this question. Please disregard my attempt. :)
posted by rhizome at 9:07 AM on July 10, 2008
posted by rhizome at 9:07 AM on July 10, 2008
Best answer: Okay, no results in the OED for the following: "hold reign over" or "hold rein over" or "reign over" or "rein over"
Pertinent definitions to what you are asking:
I'm sorry I can't exactly answer your question, but I'm hoping this information helps you.
posted by frecklefaerie at 9:24 AM on July 10, 2008
Pertinent definitions to what you are asking:
ReignFeel free to memail me for the full definitions of each.
b. transf. Influence, dominion, sway, of something immaterial. {dag}in reign, dominant.
c1402 LYDG. Compl. Bl. Knt. 510 So that Dispyt now holdeth forth hire reyne, Through hasty bileve of tales that men feyne. 1567 Gude & Godlie B. (S.T.S.) 204 Lyke Prince and King, he led the Regne, Of all Iniquitie. 1596 SPENSER F.Q. V. v. 28 She gan to stoupe, and her proud mind convert To meeke obeysance of love's mightie raine. 1656 JEANES Mixt. Schol. Div. 20 A soule that is free from both the raigne, or prevalency, and the anxiety of doubts. 1768 Woman of Honor III. 131 The allodial sistem was in reign before it was supplanted by the feodal one. 1781 COWPER Hope 33 Would age in thee resign his wintry reign. 1821 SHELLEY Remembrance 10 The owlet Night resumes her reign. 1867 DUKE OF ARGYLL Reign of Law i. 5 The Reign of Law in Nature is..universal. 1883 Century Mag. Oct. 804/1 A country where both winter and summer were debarred full reign.
Rein
2. fig. a. Any means of guiding, controlling, or governing; a curb, check, or restraint of any kind. In later use freq. in the reins of government (cf. F. les rênes du gouvernement).
c1430 LYDG Reas. & Sens. 2263, I am guyed by hir reyne, And she as lady souereyne [etc.]. c1440 J. CAPGRAVE Life St. Kath. v. 1467 What, art thou, dame, led on that rene? Thi witte counte I not worth a beene. 1560 J. DAUS tr. Sleidane's Comm. 134 God..hath not permitted him to have the reignes at libertie. 1596 DRAYTON Legends ii. 119 This held the reines which overrul'd his will. 1638 JUNIUS Paint. Ancients 55 Both doe hold the raines of our hearts, leading and guiding our Passions. 1667 MILTON P.L. XI. 582 The Men, though grave, ey'd them, and let thir eyes Rove without rein. 1712 POPE Spect. No. 408 {page}6 Never too strong for the Reins of Reason and the Guidance of Judgment. 1777 WATSON Philip II, XIV. (1793) II. 177 The council of state assumed the reins of government. 1827 HALLAM Const. Hist. (1876) III. xvi. 235 Anne herself..kept in her own hands the reins of power. 1879 FROUDE Cæsar v. 44 The Senate had dropped the reins, and no longer governed or misgoverned.
I'm sorry I can't exactly answer your question, but I'm hoping this information helps you.
posted by frecklefaerie at 9:24 AM on July 10, 2008
I'm wondering if those who have used this in the past did so as a kind of malapropism, conflating "hold sway over" and "reign over", and compounding the problem by loose spelling. Do that kind of thing long ago enough and you'll have 21st century folk scratching their heads.
Just a thought.
Just from curiosity, why are you looking for this? To me, that's more interesting than the question itself.
posted by IndigoJones at 11:04 AM on July 10, 2008
Just a thought.
Just from curiosity, why are you looking for this? To me, that's more interesting than the question itself.
posted by IndigoJones at 11:04 AM on July 10, 2008
Response by poster: frecklefaerie, thanks - that's the second best answer I could hope for. :-) "So that Dispyt now holdeth forth hire reyne" and "debarred full reign" look relevant.
IndigoJones - I was rewriting something and for reasons of rhythm wanted to use "held rei(g)n over" instead of "reigned over." (Also, to me the two expressions have slightly different connotations and the first felt more appropriate to the context.) As far as I knew it was a perfectly normal usage. But then I realized I wasn't sure how to spell it. So, not having access to any dictionaries that managed to settle the question, I looked both spellings up in Google, Google Books/Scholar, Project Gutenberg, etc. I ended up getting very few hits, and what I did get was divided pretty evenly between the two. So I was surprised and wanted to know what was going on.
Interestingly, if you look up "full rei(g)n over" you get a bunch of verbs in the hold position, including "have," "give," "assume," "allow," etc. Again, the hits are pretty evenly split. But the OED entry above gives "debarred full reign," and that seems like the sort of usage I was thinking of.
posted by trig at 1:47 PM on July 10, 2008
IndigoJones - I was rewriting something and for reasons of rhythm wanted to use "held rei(g)n over" instead of "reigned over." (Also, to me the two expressions have slightly different connotations and the first felt more appropriate to the context.) As far as I knew it was a perfectly normal usage. But then I realized I wasn't sure how to spell it. So, not having access to any dictionaries that managed to settle the question, I looked both spellings up in Google, Google Books/Scholar, Project Gutenberg, etc. I ended up getting very few hits, and what I did get was divided pretty evenly between the two. So I was surprised and wanted to know what was going on.
Interestingly, if you look up "full rei(g)n over" you get a bunch of verbs in the hold position, including "have," "give," "assume," "allow," etc. Again, the hits are pretty evenly split. But the OED entry above gives "debarred full reign," and that seems like the sort of usage I was thinking of.
posted by trig at 1:47 PM on July 10, 2008
Response by poster: (And of course, as zippy said, influence, dominion, and sway can all be used in "hold * over." Maybe the question is why "reign" doesn't get used more in that construction!)
posted by trig at 1:59 PM on July 10, 2008
posted by trig at 1:59 PM on July 10, 2008
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posted by lia at 12:13 AM on July 10, 2008