make me a (counter) offer.
July 7, 2008 7:43 PM Subscribe
jobofferfilter: got a job offer! yea! now the salary negotation…ick. do companies always expect you to counter their offer? what now?
after nearly seven years of freelancing, i decided earlier this year that i was tired of it and want to work for the man. after months of looking (damn the economy: my industry is one of the first hit when things take a downturn), i've finally been offered a position. yea! but because i've never been in this position before, the whole salary negotiation—urgh.
at the first interview last week, i met with the HR rep and the VP to whom i would be reporting. i clicked with both of them and the VP was very impressed with my work. i was asked to come back a couple of days later to meet with more people in the department and had great conversations with them as well. the job description is huge—but i have done everything on it in one capacity or other (and have produced a number of best-sellers). this position would also be the only one of it's kind in the department, with no present plans to add (altho that may change depending on growth—and they have been growing) nor any thought as yet as to advancement for this position. i was told (and i concur with the impression i got) that it's a very "make your own opportunity" environment so there is potential for good growth as well. i really like the company: great people, great benefits, great vibe, solid financial backing, been around for over a decade and it's recently grown a bit. they were very impressed with my work—and frankly, i really do think they can benefit from my skills in the department in which i'd be working.
when i first spoke to the HR rep, she told me the salary is $X0-X5K (and asked what i was looking for—to which i answered the industry standard at my [senior] level was $X5-Y5K) but at subsequent mentions it was $X0K. i was told the person in the position before was more junior, skill-wise and their salary was about $12K less. at the second meeting, the HR rep told me they were "very interested" in me and we had a frank conversation about salary. i let them know i'd be happy at $Y0K which was the middle of the range i gave them—and i believe i can present a very good argument for it. today i got an offer for $X5K; i was told they had to finagle that last $5K to get me but it's still $5K less than what i'd like. they also offered a six month review—as a pre-emptive measure, no doubt.
so…should i still counter? do companies always expect it? and if you think i should, what should i counter at? how best do i go about doing this? hope me, hivemind!
after nearly seven years of freelancing, i decided earlier this year that i was tired of it and want to work for the man. after months of looking (damn the economy: my industry is one of the first hit when things take a downturn), i've finally been offered a position. yea! but because i've never been in this position before, the whole salary negotiation—urgh.
at the first interview last week, i met with the HR rep and the VP to whom i would be reporting. i clicked with both of them and the VP was very impressed with my work. i was asked to come back a couple of days later to meet with more people in the department and had great conversations with them as well. the job description is huge—but i have done everything on it in one capacity or other (and have produced a number of best-sellers). this position would also be the only one of it's kind in the department, with no present plans to add (altho that may change depending on growth—and they have been growing) nor any thought as yet as to advancement for this position. i was told (and i concur with the impression i got) that it's a very "make your own opportunity" environment so there is potential for good growth as well. i really like the company: great people, great benefits, great vibe, solid financial backing, been around for over a decade and it's recently grown a bit. they were very impressed with my work—and frankly, i really do think they can benefit from my skills in the department in which i'd be working.
when i first spoke to the HR rep, she told me the salary is $X0-X5K (and asked what i was looking for—to which i answered the industry standard at my [senior] level was $X5-Y5K) but at subsequent mentions it was $X0K. i was told the person in the position before was more junior, skill-wise and their salary was about $12K less. at the second meeting, the HR rep told me they were "very interested" in me and we had a frank conversation about salary. i let them know i'd be happy at $Y0K which was the middle of the range i gave them—and i believe i can present a very good argument for it. today i got an offer for $X5K; i was told they had to finagle that last $5K to get me but it's still $5K less than what i'd like. they also offered a six month review—as a pre-emptive measure, no doubt.
so…should i still counter? do companies always expect it? and if you think i should, what should i counter at? how best do i go about doing this? hope me, hivemind!
Congrats indeed!
I agree with pomegranate, take the current offer. Asking for more money probably wouldn't affect your job offer, but it certainly could cause some sour feelings. If they already told you they had to "finagle" to make the current offer, isn't it sort of a slap in the face to say it's still not good enough? $5K isn't a lot of money and you'll probably get that amount back in the next year or two. If you're satisfied with their offer it seems silly to push for more.
posted by bda1972 at 8:37 PM on July 7, 2008
I agree with pomegranate, take the current offer. Asking for more money probably wouldn't affect your job offer, but it certainly could cause some sour feelings. If they already told you they had to "finagle" to make the current offer, isn't it sort of a slap in the face to say it's still not good enough? $5K isn't a lot of money and you'll probably get that amount back in the next year or two. If you're satisfied with their offer it seems silly to push for more.
posted by bda1972 at 8:37 PM on July 7, 2008
I will disagree, because you will never again have the leverage you have now. If they won't give you salary ask about extra vacation time, flex time, or bonus money. You don't have anything to lose at this point - they're not going to withdraw the offer. Just ASK. You can probably at least increase your bonus. This is not a slap in the face - you won't sour any relationships except with HR possibly.
posted by xammerboy at 8:50 PM on July 7, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by xammerboy at 8:50 PM on July 7, 2008 [2 favorites]
Always ask for more. Always.
If you ever end up as a manager, you will be stunned (as I was) at the nearly-beyond-belief differences in salary among your employees. Skilled junior employee X makes 30% less than much less skilled junior employee Y and so on. Your entry base is the yardstick for every raise and bonus that you will ever see, and it determines to a very large part the salary you will have 2, 4 and even 10 years from now.
A review at six months is like a title; it means absolutely nothing.
posted by rr at 10:13 PM on July 7, 2008 [1 favorite]
If you ever end up as a manager, you will be stunned (as I was) at the nearly-beyond-belief differences in salary among your employees. Skilled junior employee X makes 30% less than much less skilled junior employee Y and so on. Your entry base is the yardstick for every raise and bonus that you will ever see, and it determines to a very large part the salary you will have 2, 4 and even 10 years from now.
A review at six months is like a title; it means absolutely nothing.
posted by rr at 10:13 PM on July 7, 2008 [1 favorite]
When I was hired for my first career position, I was offered a salary below median for what I knew about googling for similar positions' salaries. I emailed back saying that I was really enthused about the position but couldn't in good conscience accept their offer unless they raised it. They promptly wrote back and bumped it up. I'm so shy about this kind of stuff that I was literally trembling, thinking ohshit what if they rescind it, but just by sucking it up and hitting "send" I got a better offer.
Several years later, observing the hiring process from the inside, I believe it's nearly always the case that by the time an offer has been made to you, a hiring manager has really settled on you as a candidate for the position. Realistically at worst they'll just say no. I dunno if they always expect counteroffers it but they're never surprised by them.
I know this sounds like "it's easy for you to say..." stuff when you're freaking out but it's really true. :)
And yeah... at the review they're likely to say, "Hey, good job, here's a pansy 1-2% bump since we're six months early." Much harder to push back after six months because by then you've really settled in. And they know that, which is why they said it.
posted by mindsound at 10:37 PM on July 7, 2008
Several years later, observing the hiring process from the inside, I believe it's nearly always the case that by the time an offer has been made to you, a hiring manager has really settled on you as a candidate for the position. Realistically at worst they'll just say no. I dunno if they always expect counteroffers it but they're never surprised by them.
I know this sounds like "it's easy for you to say..." stuff when you're freaking out but it's really true. :)
And yeah... at the review they're likely to say, "Hey, good job, here's a pansy 1-2% bump since we're six months early." Much harder to push back after six months because by then you've really settled in. And they know that, which is why they said it.
posted by mindsound at 10:37 PM on July 7, 2008
rr and mindsound have it right on. I have been through this way too many times and have learned from experience with my own offers, my wife's and helping friends with theirs.
My first job out of college I was offered a position about 5-10% below what i was hoping. I was told "This is as much as we can do" and I thought I was slick by getting them to agree to a ~10% signing bonus. The thing is, I stayed with the company for 4 years and later realized how this was a mistake. By giving my the extra 10% as a one-time bonus, it took me two years of raises just to get back to the same income I made in my first year. Using round numbers, lets say I was offered 46K, but was expecting 50K. If they give me the extra $4K as a bonus it looks good, but then will take two years with a ~5% pay increase to get me normal pay back to the $50K mark. Lesson learned - never negotiate a bonus while negotiating salary unless you are desperate for cash or unless you do not plan a long-term life with the company. Get the salary you feel is fair and that you deserve (be realistic), and then talk bonuses if it is an option (not as common these days).
A couple years after I left this first job I was at a startup that went under during the dot-com bust. This was a very hard time to find work, and after a number of months I was offered a postion at a rate quite a bit lower than what I knew was fare. I was running low on money and knew I would do a great job at this place so I accepted the low offer with the contingency that I receive a review in 6 months. Six months into the job I mentioned the review and it took 2 extra months to actually happen. The review was positive but the increase was minimal (maybe 3%). I was told I had not been there for a full year so they couldnt justify a huge bump especially since regular review were due in 2-4 months. When the next review came 4 months later it was basically the same..."You're doing a great job, but since we just gave you a raise a few months ago we will give you a 3-4 percent increase". This still left me well below the rate I should have started at. I have seen this mistake made way tooooo many times with friends and family. Lesson learned: Dont negotiate a review as a way to make up for a low offer. I was actually lucky with my review, as 3/4 of the people I know dont even get the review promised them (manager leaves, HR rep leaves, reorgs, etc). This is not a smart way to ensure you are compensated for what you are worth.
If you are not desperate for work and have a realistic/valid idea of what you are worth, then stick with it. Remember a low starting salary is what all your future raises (and perhaps bonuses) are based upon. If you settle for a just $5K less than you should be getting it can really add up. After 5 years that is a $25K difference, not taking into account how the lower salary effects the net amount of your yearly raise or bonus.
After learning my lesson with the above scenarios and learning to know what a fair salary is for my experience I have been much happier and the interviewing/negotion process has been much easier. I have had a handfull of offers since then and have only turned down two offers that could not reach a fair market price for my position. That said...be certain to not make it all about money if a job cant offer a fair market rate, but is an amazing workplace, or an amazing place to build your career then consider it. Being happy at a job is far more important than 5% pay difference in pay.
OK...no more rambling.
posted by sirhensley at 11:19 PM on July 7, 2008 [8 favorites]
My first job out of college I was offered a position about 5-10% below what i was hoping. I was told "This is as much as we can do" and I thought I was slick by getting them to agree to a ~10% signing bonus. The thing is, I stayed with the company for 4 years and later realized how this was a mistake. By giving my the extra 10% as a one-time bonus, it took me two years of raises just to get back to the same income I made in my first year. Using round numbers, lets say I was offered 46K, but was expecting 50K. If they give me the extra $4K as a bonus it looks good, but then will take two years with a ~5% pay increase to get me normal pay back to the $50K mark. Lesson learned - never negotiate a bonus while negotiating salary unless you are desperate for cash or unless you do not plan a long-term life with the company. Get the salary you feel is fair and that you deserve (be realistic), and then talk bonuses if it is an option (not as common these days).
A couple years after I left this first job I was at a startup that went under during the dot-com bust. This was a very hard time to find work, and after a number of months I was offered a postion at a rate quite a bit lower than what I knew was fare. I was running low on money and knew I would do a great job at this place so I accepted the low offer with the contingency that I receive a review in 6 months. Six months into the job I mentioned the review and it took 2 extra months to actually happen. The review was positive but the increase was minimal (maybe 3%). I was told I had not been there for a full year so they couldnt justify a huge bump especially since regular review were due in 2-4 months. When the next review came 4 months later it was basically the same..."You're doing a great job, but since we just gave you a raise a few months ago we will give you a 3-4 percent increase". This still left me well below the rate I should have started at. I have seen this mistake made way tooooo many times with friends and family. Lesson learned: Dont negotiate a review as a way to make up for a low offer. I was actually lucky with my review, as 3/4 of the people I know dont even get the review promised them (manager leaves, HR rep leaves, reorgs, etc). This is not a smart way to ensure you are compensated for what you are worth.
If you are not desperate for work and have a realistic/valid idea of what you are worth, then stick with it. Remember a low starting salary is what all your future raises (and perhaps bonuses) are based upon. If you settle for a just $5K less than you should be getting it can really add up. After 5 years that is a $25K difference, not taking into account how the lower salary effects the net amount of your yearly raise or bonus.
After learning my lesson with the above scenarios and learning to know what a fair salary is for my experience I have been much happier and the interviewing/negotion process has been much easier. I have had a handfull of offers since then and have only turned down two offers that could not reach a fair market price for my position. That said...be certain to not make it all about money if a job cant offer a fair market rate, but is an amazing workplace, or an amazing place to build your career then consider it. Being happy at a job is far more important than 5% pay difference in pay.
OK...no more rambling.
posted by sirhensley at 11:19 PM on July 7, 2008 [8 favorites]
If they already told you they had to "finagle" to make the current offer, isn't it sort of a slap in the face to say it's still not good enough?
It's a fairly common tactic for used car salesmen to "talk the boss into giving you a special one time deal" implying he's specially exerted himself on your behalf when in fact he's offering you a price he'd be happy to sell at and probably hasn't talked to the boss at all.
Of course, one would hope HR would be more honest than used car salesmen.
posted by Mike1024 at 12:28 AM on July 8, 2008
It's a fairly common tactic for used car salesmen to "talk the boss into giving you a special one time deal" implying he's specially exerted himself on your behalf when in fact he's offering you a price he'd be happy to sell at and probably hasn't talked to the boss at all.
Of course, one would hope HR would be more honest than used car salesmen.
posted by Mike1024 at 12:28 AM on July 8, 2008
Ask for your number. You already have justified it to yourself and can make those justifications to HR if necessary. Tell them that you are excited about the job and really want to work, but that you feel like you are worth $YK.
You are in the position of power here. They want you and they need that work done. You are not asking for a job at this point. Everyone will be happy with your work (I'm sure, based on how happy they were with your previous work); you, them, hr. So use your position of power. I know it doesn't feel like it because you don't work there, but they don't want to go back to the pile of resumes and make an offer to a 2nd best person (think of how annoying that is... all the time wasted when you could start in a week for $5k / yr, and you're imminently qualified, and you guys have totally hit it off... just trying to show some examples of why they'd be more than happy to give you what you want).
posted by zpousman at 7:13 AM on July 8, 2008
You are in the position of power here. They want you and they need that work done. You are not asking for a job at this point. Everyone will be happy with your work (I'm sure, based on how happy they were with your previous work); you, them, hr. So use your position of power. I know it doesn't feel like it because you don't work there, but they don't want to go back to the pile of resumes and make an offer to a 2nd best person (think of how annoying that is... all the time wasted when you could start in a week for $5k / yr, and you're imminently qualified, and you guys have totally hit it off... just trying to show some examples of why they'd be more than happy to give you what you want).
posted by zpousman at 7:13 AM on July 8, 2008
Regarding the beta-speak posts wherein people are worried about insulting the employer because they "finagled" the current offer, please reconsider.
You have seven years experience -- what's the worst that happens, you continue to freelance?
Here are the facts as I've gleaned, coming at it from a tech industry point of view:
1. You will NOT make a lower initial salary later by being a nice guy. You should always, always, always go for the highest starting salary you can get. "Total compensation" plans are the w2 equivalent of the car salesman foursquare -- they will talk up a (non-guaranteed, especially in the fact of downturn) bonus and (almost certainly going to drop) stock options ot talk down base salary.
For example, please be aware that at _any_ large tech company today, you have a large pool of workers who joined in the late 90s or before the dotcom crash for whom stock options were a large part of compensation. These employees were lowballed on salary and because every raise, every bonus and every stock grant is based on two things: job level and starting salary. Those people have never caught up with the people who came in later and will never, ever catch up. It is reality.
2. Unless you are a complete ass and force a protracted and hostile back-and-forth negotiation, your hiring manager will not remember a year or two from now and probably wont care. If anything, they may remember the strife and basically pad your yearly salary increases or round up bonuses because they assume you will be a pain in the ass and they want to avoid it.
3. It is far better to be below the median for your salary range than it is to be above it, so ask them to provide the salary range and median for your grade level and for the grade level above you. This is not "secret" information, most HR departments will provide it if asked as will most hiring managers. Good companies are open about it, bad companies are secretive about it.
You want your salary to be as close as possible to the median and not above it (at least not by more than a few %) unless you are applying for a job for which there is no "next rung" (in which case you want the most money possible since it is the best you will ever do). If you are significantly above the median, you will be dicked over on raises for all of eternity with the following words: "I'm sorry, this is the best I can do because you're so far above the median."
If you ARE abovr the median, see if you can talk your way into a grade promotion (which usually, but not always, comes with a higher %age bonus) even at the same salary [i.e., this is your concession] since that is a reasonable tradeoff because it does set you up for an easier base salary climb later.
I have no idea if this applies to your industry.
posted by rr at 1:40 PM on July 8, 2008
You have seven years experience -- what's the worst that happens, you continue to freelance?
Here are the facts as I've gleaned, coming at it from a tech industry point of view:
1. You will NOT make a lower initial salary later by being a nice guy. You should always, always, always go for the highest starting salary you can get. "Total compensation" plans are the w2 equivalent of the car salesman foursquare -- they will talk up a (non-guaranteed, especially in the fact of downturn) bonus and (almost certainly going to drop) stock options ot talk down base salary.
For example, please be aware that at _any_ large tech company today, you have a large pool of workers who joined in the late 90s or before the dotcom crash for whom stock options were a large part of compensation. These employees were lowballed on salary and because every raise, every bonus and every stock grant is based on two things: job level and starting salary. Those people have never caught up with the people who came in later and will never, ever catch up. It is reality.
2. Unless you are a complete ass and force a protracted and hostile back-and-forth negotiation, your hiring manager will not remember a year or two from now and probably wont care. If anything, they may remember the strife and basically pad your yearly salary increases or round up bonuses because they assume you will be a pain in the ass and they want to avoid it.
3. It is far better to be below the median for your salary range than it is to be above it, so ask them to provide the salary range and median for your grade level and for the grade level above you. This is not "secret" information, most HR departments will provide it if asked as will most hiring managers. Good companies are open about it, bad companies are secretive about it.
You want your salary to be as close as possible to the median and not above it (at least not by more than a few %) unless you are applying for a job for which there is no "next rung" (in which case you want the most money possible since it is the best you will ever do). If you are significantly above the median, you will be dicked over on raises for all of eternity with the following words: "I'm sorry, this is the best I can do because you're so far above the median."
If you ARE abovr the median, see if you can talk your way into a grade promotion (which usually, but not always, comes with a higher %age bonus) even at the same salary [i.e., this is your concession] since that is a reasonable tradeoff because it does set you up for an easier base salary climb later.
I have no idea if this applies to your industry.
posted by rr at 1:40 PM on July 8, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
No, companies don't always expect it, and it sounds like you're pretty happy with the salary they offered, but you'd like a little more. I'd say, yes, I'll take it, on the caveat that they work with you to create some clear goals for the first 6 months, and if you reach them, the $5K is guaranteed as a base bonus, along with a $5K raise.
(I have fifteen years experience in HR, but, of course, not at this company, so I'm not sure what their culture is in this area.)
posted by pomegranate at 8:10 PM on July 7, 2008 [1 favorite]