Boy, that plane sure looks close...
July 3, 2008 1:26 PM Subscribe
Where can I find information on a recent runway incursion involving a flight that I was on?
Earlier this week, I was on board a plane that was taking off from National Airport in Washington, DC. As we were turning on to the runway to line up for takeoff, I noticed that a plane approaching the runway to land seemed very close. We started the takeoff, but about 5 seconds after throttling up the plane cut power and sharply turned off the runway, immediately after which we could see another plane landing on the runway we had just exited. We then taxied around and then took off a few seconds later. None of the flight crew made any comment about it for the duration of the flight.
Is there anything publicly available on the web that might give me more information on this incident (I believe it is called a "runway incursion")? I looked here (which I found through this question), but it doesn't seem to include my flight. I'm not looking to complain or file a report, I just would be interested in learning a bit more about what actually happened.
Earlier this week, I was on board a plane that was taking off from National Airport in Washington, DC. As we were turning on to the runway to line up for takeoff, I noticed that a plane approaching the runway to land seemed very close. We started the takeoff, but about 5 seconds after throttling up the plane cut power and sharply turned off the runway, immediately after which we could see another plane landing on the runway we had just exited. We then taxied around and then took off a few seconds later. None of the flight crew made any comment about it for the duration of the flight.
Is there anything publicly available on the web that might give me more information on this incident (I believe it is called a "runway incursion")? I looked here (which I found through this question), but it doesn't seem to include my flight. I'm not looking to complain or file a report, I just would be interested in learning a bit more about what actually happened.
Best answer: Here you go... the ASRS system would be the more likely place to find it. Pilots get immunity from sanctions by making a report here, but they also might use it when a dangerous situation occurred to alert other pilots and controllers. There is a certain element of anonymity so you may not be able to find specifics except by plane type, location, month, etc.
posted by tinkertown at 1:38 PM on July 3, 2008
posted by tinkertown at 1:38 PM on July 3, 2008
Actually, it might not be considered an incident, I'm a little hazy on what they actually classify as "incidents".
posted by backseatpilot at 1:39 PM on July 3, 2008
posted by backseatpilot at 1:39 PM on July 3, 2008
(also there may not have been time for your incident to appear in any databases yet; I'd try back in a month or two)
posted by tinkertown at 1:39 PM on July 3, 2008
posted by tinkertown at 1:39 PM on July 3, 2008
Best answer: What you experienced was almost certainly not an incursion. Here's what's going on in these situations (and, as one who regularly flies out of National it's happend to me once or twice):
First, a little background: Since National is a very busy airport, the controllers have become adept at minimizing delays between operations (departures and arrivals). Some would call this being "aggressive", but talented controllers and pilots can make this work, and it means more takeoffs and landings per hour, minimizing what could otherwise be very bad delays.
In your case, what you didn't observe was the arrival that had just landed on that runway; let's call that Flight A. You were on Flight B, and Flight C was the aircraft on short final. The controller anticipates that, if A can get slowed down in time to make a certain taxiway off the runway, there will be just enough time for B to start his takeoff roll and lift off prior to C crossing the threshold. For this to work, however, B has to be in position and ready to release brakes the second the controller sees that A has cleared the runway. So, as A is crossing the threshold, the controller tells B to "Taxi into position and hold", possibly adding, "Be ready", or "Spool 'em up" (start the engine runup but don't start the takeoff roll). As A flies past their windscreen and touches down, the pilots of B are already taxiing into position, lining up on the runway, and advancing their thrust levers. C is slowing down to his slowest approach speed, anticipating having to land in the jet blast of the departing B, and it's all evolving into a beautifully-timed ballet when…A doesn't make the hoped-for turnoff. The controller sees this, and says to B, "It's not 'gonna work out, B. Cancel your takeoff clearance, clear the runway at Taxiway Kilo, no delay please". Your pilots then aggressively accelerate down to the first available exit, clear the runway, and return to the "number one" position (holding short of the runway). By the time they do, C has touched down, and B is then immediately cleared for takeoff. Everyone chalks it up as a "nice try". You can see that in such a scenario your pilots are a couple of busy guys, and don't really have the time to pick up the PA and explain what's going on.
A true runway incursion doesn't usually involve an aircraft that has been cleared for takeoff or landing. More often than not, it's an aircraft that inadvertently crosses a runway without clearance on the way to someplace else (like the terminal, or a different runway).
Hope this makes you feel a little better.
posted by dinger at 3:21 PM on July 3, 2008 [10 favorites]
First, a little background: Since National is a very busy airport, the controllers have become adept at minimizing delays between operations (departures and arrivals). Some would call this being "aggressive", but talented controllers and pilots can make this work, and it means more takeoffs and landings per hour, minimizing what could otherwise be very bad delays.
In your case, what you didn't observe was the arrival that had just landed on that runway; let's call that Flight A. You were on Flight B, and Flight C was the aircraft on short final. The controller anticipates that, if A can get slowed down in time to make a certain taxiway off the runway, there will be just enough time for B to start his takeoff roll and lift off prior to C crossing the threshold. For this to work, however, B has to be in position and ready to release brakes the second the controller sees that A has cleared the runway. So, as A is crossing the threshold, the controller tells B to "Taxi into position and hold", possibly adding, "Be ready", or "Spool 'em up" (start the engine runup but don't start the takeoff roll). As A flies past their windscreen and touches down, the pilots of B are already taxiing into position, lining up on the runway, and advancing their thrust levers. C is slowing down to his slowest approach speed, anticipating having to land in the jet blast of the departing B, and it's all evolving into a beautifully-timed ballet when…A doesn't make the hoped-for turnoff. The controller sees this, and says to B, "It's not 'gonna work out, B. Cancel your takeoff clearance, clear the runway at Taxiway Kilo, no delay please". Your pilots then aggressively accelerate down to the first available exit, clear the runway, and return to the "number one" position (holding short of the runway). By the time they do, C has touched down, and B is then immediately cleared for takeoff. Everyone chalks it up as a "nice try". You can see that in such a scenario your pilots are a couple of busy guys, and don't really have the time to pick up the PA and explain what's going on.
A true runway incursion doesn't usually involve an aircraft that has been cleared for takeoff or landing. More often than not, it's an aircraft that inadvertently crosses a runway without clearance on the way to someplace else (like the terminal, or a different runway).
Hope this makes you feel a little better.
posted by dinger at 3:21 PM on July 3, 2008 [10 favorites]
Okay, I have a related question:
The other day I was traveling from Osaka to Vancouver. About an hour out, still climbing to cruising altitude, I saw another passenger jet from the cabin window. It was traveling roughly parallel to our course, about 1000 feet above us, and might have been about a kilometer away. I could almost make out the logo on the tail: blue and red Delta markings.
After about five minutes our plane gently banked to the left and the plane disappeared.
How close is close?
posted by KokuRyu at 4:16 PM on July 3, 2008
The other day I was traveling from Osaka to Vancouver. About an hour out, still climbing to cruising altitude, I saw another passenger jet from the cabin window. It was traveling roughly parallel to our course, about 1000 feet above us, and might have been about a kilometer away. I could almost make out the logo on the tail: blue and red Delta markings.
After about five minutes our plane gently banked to the left and the plane disappeared.
How close is close?
posted by KokuRyu at 4:16 PM on July 3, 2008
The standard for safe separation when in radar contact is 1000 feet vertical separation between aircraft, and five miles horizontal separation for aircraft at the same altitude. One way to visualize this is to imagine each aircraft as representing a hockey puck-sized chunk of airspace five miles in diameter and 1000 feet thick. To maintain safe separation, the hockey pucks should never touch.
To answer your specific question "How close is close?", in military formations the rule of thumb is that if you can just barely read the registration number on the other aircraft you're about 1000' away. (The registration numbers on military aircraft are pretty small.)
Your estimations may be fairly accurate; 1000 foot vertical separation and a kilometer (about a half nautical mile) horizontal separation would not be unusual.
For comparison, in a formation of tactical military aircraft you can count rivets on the other aircraft.
"Close", like so many things in life, is relative.
posted by dinger at 5:39 PM on July 3, 2008
To answer your specific question "How close is close?", in military formations the rule of thumb is that if you can just barely read the registration number on the other aircraft you're about 1000' away. (The registration numbers on military aircraft are pretty small.)
Your estimations may be fairly accurate; 1000 foot vertical separation and a kilometer (about a half nautical mile) horizontal separation would not be unusual.
For comparison, in a formation of tactical military aircraft you can count rivets on the other aircraft.
"Close", like so many things in life, is relative.
posted by dinger at 5:39 PM on July 3, 2008
It was a somewhat unusual and surreal, even dreamlike experience (it was dusk).
posted by KokuRyu at 6:57 PM on July 3, 2008
posted by KokuRyu at 6:57 PM on July 3, 2008
It can be very beautiful, can it not?
I sometimes wish people would put down the book or magazine, ignore the movie, and just spend a minute gazing out the window. To "slip the surly bonds of earth and dance the skies on laughter-silvered wings" can still be magical.
posted by dinger at 7:17 PM on July 3, 2008
I sometimes wish people would put down the book or magazine, ignore the movie, and just spend a minute gazing out the window. To "slip the surly bonds of earth and dance the skies on laughter-silvered wings" can still be magical.
posted by dinger at 7:17 PM on July 3, 2008
Response by poster: Thanks for the links, backseatpilot and tinkertown, I'll keep my eyes on them in the next few weeks. And thanks for the ATC lesson, dinger. Your description matches what happened pretty closely. I grew up in DC, so I have long been aware that their spacing can be extremely 'aggressive' - but this was especially close.
posted by googly at 7:22 PM on July 3, 2008
posted by googly at 7:22 PM on July 3, 2008
I sometimes wish people would put down the book or magazine, ignore the movie, and just spend a minute gazing out the window.
35 years of flying and I still always get a window seat and spend half the flight starting out of it. A couple years ago I bought a GPS receiver (actually the family pooled together for a requested Christmas present) specifically so I could follow along with what we were flying over.*
The forums over at airliners.net are great for lurking. It's the first place I go when I hear of an airliner accident (e.g. the creepy 777 engine shutdown from January) because those guys will know far more than any media outlet.
* yes you can bring GPS receivers onto airplanes, just be discreet
posted by intermod at 9:00 PM on July 3, 2008
35 years of flying and I still always get a window seat and spend half the flight starting out of it. A couple years ago I bought a GPS receiver (actually the family pooled together for a requested Christmas present) specifically so I could follow along with what we were flying over.*
The forums over at airliners.net are great for lurking. It's the first place I go when I hear of an airliner accident (e.g. the creepy 777 engine shutdown from January) because those guys will know far more than any media outlet.
* yes you can bring GPS receivers onto airplanes, just be discreet
posted by intermod at 9:00 PM on July 3, 2008
Another thing you need to keep in mind with National is that it is surrounded by highly restricted airspace, so right after takeoff the pilots need to make a sharp turn anyways to avoid getting yelled at for flying over DC.
posted by BobbyDigital at 9:51 PM on July 3, 2008
posted by BobbyDigital at 9:51 PM on July 3, 2008
Someone asked me via MeFiMail for more info about GPS receiver use on airplanes (re my post above) so I'll post it here for you all.
I bought a used Garmin GPSMAP 60C via eBay for about $250 (in Dec 2006) -- that's a 2004 model. I don't know how the reception would compare to newer models. With mine, I can usually hold a signal as long as I keep the antenna end leaned against the window; if I put it on the armrest next to the window then it has about a 30% chance of holding the signal.
I considered an external antenna that I would stick to the window, but they look even less discrete then just holding the receiver, and I don't want to antagonize the flight crew :)
There are a few airlines that do NOT allow GPS receivers, listed here:
http://gpsinformation.net/airgps/airgps.htm
Most airlines DO allow them, but they also leave it to "crew discretion". So don't antagonize the crew! I tuck mine away when the drink/snack cart comes by.
No matter what you use, it will only be able to see half the sky, at best. But that's usually enough to get a 3D (4 satellite) lock.
posted by intermod at 3:44 PM on July 14, 2008
I bought a used Garmin GPSMAP 60C via eBay for about $250 (in Dec 2006) -- that's a 2004 model. I don't know how the reception would compare to newer models. With mine, I can usually hold a signal as long as I keep the antenna end leaned against the window; if I put it on the armrest next to the window then it has about a 30% chance of holding the signal.
I considered an external antenna that I would stick to the window, but they look even less discrete then just holding the receiver, and I don't want to antagonize the flight crew :)
There are a few airlines that do NOT allow GPS receivers, listed here:
http://gpsinformation.net/airgps/airgps.htm
Most airlines DO allow them, but they also leave it to "crew discretion". So don't antagonize the crew! I tuck mine away when the drink/snack cart comes by.
No matter what you use, it will only be able to see half the sky, at best. But that's usually enough to get a 3D (4 satellite) lock.
posted by intermod at 3:44 PM on July 14, 2008
Had a similar experience flying back from BWI- flight took off just before sunset and flew West "into" the dusk, so that dusk lasted almost the entire flight. It was a surreal moment. I was looking out the window during cruise, and saw a plane coming directly towards us from maybe 30 degrees. It passed completely safely a couple 1000 feet under us, but I was amazed at the relative speed of it. Since we were closing on each other, the relative speed was probably close to 1000 mph. It was amazing.
posted by gjc at 6:26 PM on August 1, 2008
posted by gjc at 6:26 PM on August 1, 2008
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posted by backseatpilot at 1:38 PM on July 3, 2008