How to get into a bio grad school program after another career?
June 12, 2008 5:28 PM Subscribe
How can I improve my chances of getting into a biological sciences grad program 10+ years post-college? Is it even feasible?
This may be a bit long. I've always loved the sciences, especially biology and chemistry, did very well in those subjects in high school and started out college a biochemistry major. Due to a lot of pressures I won't go into here I made a boneheaded move and after my first (academically stellar) semester of college I switched my major to psychology. I never was exactly happy with the switch, and toward the end of college took a lot of science classes on the side, so I finished up college with a lot of the basics under my belt (1 year physics, chem, organic chem, anatomy and physiology, etc). I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life when I graduated and felt some financial pressure so I transitioned into work as a software developer, promising myself I'd go to grad school when I figured out my life.
In the past ten years since college I've done well for myself as a software developer, and four years ago I started a technology company with two other partners. The company is doing really well, but I'm. . .bored. I loved the first two years of building the technical infrastructure of the company, but now work is more about sales and marketing than it is about working on interesting problems. I'm also not really a manager at heart, which is what my role is becoming, and I'm also a bit burned out on programming and looking for something else to stimulate my intellect. What really turns me on is the space and time to work on and tackle hard problems.
In my free time I love to listen to medical lectures, read books on genetics, etc, etc. I think that I would really enjoy a grad program in biochemistry or molecular biology or physiology. The problem is that I haven't touched a test tube or been in a lab for ten years. There are still a few basic classes I'd need to take at the undergrad level. All my contacts from college that I might have used as references have long since forgotten about me. And I will need probably two years at least to make a graceful exit from my business and into grad school, putting me at about 34 years old before I could even start a program.
So have any of you found yourselves in similar situation as an older applicant to a rigorous science grad program? What are some good "next steps" for applying to one? Who should I be talking to, what qualifying exams should I be taking, etc? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
This may be a bit long. I've always loved the sciences, especially biology and chemistry, did very well in those subjects in high school and started out college a biochemistry major. Due to a lot of pressures I won't go into here I made a boneheaded move and after my first (academically stellar) semester of college I switched my major to psychology. I never was exactly happy with the switch, and toward the end of college took a lot of science classes on the side, so I finished up college with a lot of the basics under my belt (1 year physics, chem, organic chem, anatomy and physiology, etc). I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life when I graduated and felt some financial pressure so I transitioned into work as a software developer, promising myself I'd go to grad school when I figured out my life.
In the past ten years since college I've done well for myself as a software developer, and four years ago I started a technology company with two other partners. The company is doing really well, but I'm. . .bored. I loved the first two years of building the technical infrastructure of the company, but now work is more about sales and marketing than it is about working on interesting problems. I'm also not really a manager at heart, which is what my role is becoming, and I'm also a bit burned out on programming and looking for something else to stimulate my intellect. What really turns me on is the space and time to work on and tackle hard problems.
In my free time I love to listen to medical lectures, read books on genetics, etc, etc. I think that I would really enjoy a grad program in biochemistry or molecular biology or physiology. The problem is that I haven't touched a test tube or been in a lab for ten years. There are still a few basic classes I'd need to take at the undergrad level. All my contacts from college that I might have used as references have long since forgotten about me. And I will need probably two years at least to make a graceful exit from my business and into grad school, putting me at about 34 years old before I could even start a program.
So have any of you found yourselves in similar situation as an older applicant to a rigorous science grad program? What are some good "next steps" for applying to one? Who should I be talking to, what qualifying exams should I be taking, etc? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
I think you sound like a great candidate honestly. Like pombe mentioned many bio people are looking for someone with computational experiment to handle that side of things in their labs. The grad program I belong to is computational biology at Cornell and there are many students with similar backgrounds. You say that you're tired of programming and that you would like to get into the experimental side of things. I think that entering a program that values computational skills would help you transition into the kind of graduate degree that you want. A lot of labs will find you very attractive -- you have computational skills and yet you're not averse to doing wet lab experiments. I think you'll find that you're a pretty rare and sought after commodity. After getting your foot in the door in this manner, I think you'll be able to transition to more physiology/biochem/mol bio focused work.
posted by peacheater at 6:11 PM on June 12, 2008
posted by peacheater at 6:11 PM on June 12, 2008
By experiment, I meant experience.
posted by peacheater at 6:12 PM on June 12, 2008
posted by peacheater at 6:12 PM on June 12, 2008
There is a professor at Cambridge (IIRC) who retired from her job as a schoolteacher and decided she wanted to get her PhD. She went from lab to lab until a professor gave her a break ... and now she is a very well known researcher who has just published a couple of Nature papers.
posted by Comrade_robot at 6:36 PM on June 12, 2008
posted by Comrade_robot at 6:36 PM on June 12, 2008
Best answer: If it is any consolation, I was very similar to you several years ago; I entered graduate school at an older age (29), and had been away from undergraduate biology work for 8 years. There were students that were older than me -- so age is not against you.
If you have the flexibity/or want to increase your odds, I would suggest doing the following (these things may help you get ahead in graduate school):
--Go and take a course or two a semester. Do really well. (Then you will have at least one recent academic person to write your letter--and you won't need to take the undergrad courses in grad school).
--As the other people have suggested, go volunteer or work in a lab. I would go talk to a faculty member or members about your experience, your interests, and see if they would let you do the equivalent of a "rotation" - about 20 hours a week for a quarter or semester. If you do this with a few faculty members, you may know what topics interest you, have lab experience, and perhaps get your name on a paper. You should easily be able to get one of these people to write a letter for you too.
--If you are outgoing, join a journal club for graduate students (molecular biology) -- meet once a week with them, present a paper, etc.
If you don't have that much time with work, perhaps 10 hours a week in a lab? Or work full time in a lab as a tech -- you don't need more than an undergraduate degree for that plus you will get the experience.
I think your background would be invaluable -- everything from fMRIs to bioinformatics.
Good luck.
posted by Wolfster at 6:41 PM on June 12, 2008
If you have the flexibity/or want to increase your odds, I would suggest doing the following (these things may help you get ahead in graduate school):
--Go and take a course or two a semester. Do really well. (Then you will have at least one recent academic person to write your letter--and you won't need to take the undergrad courses in grad school).
--As the other people have suggested, go volunteer or work in a lab. I would go talk to a faculty member or members about your experience, your interests, and see if they would let you do the equivalent of a "rotation" - about 20 hours a week for a quarter or semester. If you do this with a few faculty members, you may know what topics interest you, have lab experience, and perhaps get your name on a paper. You should easily be able to get one of these people to write a letter for you too.
--If you are outgoing, join a journal club for graduate students (molecular biology) -- meet once a week with them, present a paper, etc.
If you don't have that much time with work, perhaps 10 hours a week in a lab? Or work full time in a lab as a tech -- you don't need more than an undergraduate degree for that plus you will get the experience.
I think your background would be invaluable -- everything from fMRIs to bioinformatics.
Good luck.
posted by Wolfster at 6:41 PM on June 12, 2008
Best answer: This sounds very similar to my situation a few years back. Degree in philosophy but a love of biology, working in a dotcom job that paid well but I wanted a change. I threw in the towel, went back to school and got a second degree in biology (as of yesterday!), and have been accepted into a PhD program in the fall. I'll be 33 when I start, and somewhere near 40 when I finish.
I was coming from a degree in philosophy with very little math or science background, and while I didn't NEED a BS in biology to go along with my BA, I felt uncomfortable without a solid background in biology and figured a "solid background" was so close to finishing the requirements for a BS, I'd just go for it. It took me three years, and while I didn't NEED to invest that time, I could afford it, it got me where I wanted to be. It worked out for me. I could have finished the BS in two years and one term, but getting the BS wasn't the goal. The goal was to get into a PhD program so with that in mind, I took summer classes between my first and second year (ochem), and go a fellowship to work in a lab here on campus for the summer between my second and third year. I will start in the fall working in the lab I worked in last summer. The three year investment here, gave me the opportunity to get a feel for the school, what was offered, who I might be able to work with, who I didn't want to work with, etc. It opened doors for me that otherwise would have been much more difficult to pry open. The summer work I did in the lab sealed the deal. If nothing else, that's what you need to do, what anyone who wants to get into a biological science grad program needs to do.
If I were in your situation and needed two years just to leave your job, I'd enroll as a post-bacc student at a local university and take an upper division course this summer and fit it into your work schedule. Take another one in the fall, and keep taking them one at a time. Get to know some professors, find out if your department offers seminars and when they are. Get a feel for who does what, and find someone who's research sounds interesting. Read some of their papers then sit down with them and tell them that you have a full time job but can offer them 5 hours a week, or something if they need any assistance in the lab. Try this for a few months, try another lab or two. These will be your new references when you apply to school.
It'll all work out, just gotta jump in and do it. Even if you don't end up going onto a graduate program, the work in the labs will be a great experience.
Finally, while the website isn't pretty, you might want to check out the field of Ecosystem Informatics if you're interested in continuing to use your computer skills.
posted by pwb503 at 11:51 PM on June 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
I was coming from a degree in philosophy with very little math or science background, and while I didn't NEED a BS in biology to go along with my BA, I felt uncomfortable without a solid background in biology and figured a "solid background" was so close to finishing the requirements for a BS, I'd just go for it. It took me three years, and while I didn't NEED to invest that time, I could afford it, it got me where I wanted to be. It worked out for me. I could have finished the BS in two years and one term, but getting the BS wasn't the goal. The goal was to get into a PhD program so with that in mind, I took summer classes between my first and second year (ochem), and go a fellowship to work in a lab here on campus for the summer between my second and third year. I will start in the fall working in the lab I worked in last summer. The three year investment here, gave me the opportunity to get a feel for the school, what was offered, who I might be able to work with, who I didn't want to work with, etc. It opened doors for me that otherwise would have been much more difficult to pry open. The summer work I did in the lab sealed the deal. If nothing else, that's what you need to do, what anyone who wants to get into a biological science grad program needs to do.
If I were in your situation and needed two years just to leave your job, I'd enroll as a post-bacc student at a local university and take an upper division course this summer and fit it into your work schedule. Take another one in the fall, and keep taking them one at a time. Get to know some professors, find out if your department offers seminars and when they are. Get a feel for who does what, and find someone who's research sounds interesting. Read some of their papers then sit down with them and tell them that you have a full time job but can offer them 5 hours a week, or something if they need any assistance in the lab. Try this for a few months, try another lab or two. These will be your new references when you apply to school.
It'll all work out, just gotta jump in and do it. Even if you don't end up going onto a graduate program, the work in the labs will be a great experience.
Finally, while the website isn't pretty, you might want to check out the field of Ecosystem Informatics if you're interested in continuing to use your computer skills.
posted by pwb503 at 11:51 PM on June 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I thought I'd throw in my $.02.
I took 2 years after graduation to work in science (neuroscience BS, worked as an experimental neurophysiologist), and then 4.5 years as a pharma rep. I hated the job but got caught in the "golden handcuffs" and finally broke free and returned to academia. Now I am a PhD student in neuroscience.
It is a little tough, but remember that grad school is very different from undergrad. You want to apply to labs, not schools, which interest you and you could see yourself working in for your degree work. Make sure they have room and funding, and get in touch with them early and relatively often (don't be annoying, but make contact before any interviews). Use the numbers. By that I mean, apply to as many programs as you can handle.
I worried about my time being out of academia working against me, so I applied to around 15 programs. I got around 10 interviews (5 stretch, 5 good chance, 2 fall backs), turned down 4 of them, and got offers from every place I interviewed with the exception of one school I declined actually during the interview when I got my first offer.
A few other pointers. Your personal statement and letters of reference are very key. Write them, edit them 20 times over, and then prepare versions that are various lengths (some places have 10000 character, or 500 word, or 1500 word requirements). This is where you will lay out what you really want to do and why you have chosen to return to school. Reference letters should have some intimate knowledge of your work. Generally, since you've been out for a while, I would say you want 1, preferably 2 academic-related letters (labs you worked in, advisers, etc.) and 1-2 industry ones. I actually flew down to my alma mater to visit with my refs and talk for a couple hours at least. It might even be worth visiting the schools you are interested in applying to, just so you can meet with labs face-to-face, though that is probably only appropriate if you live close by (otherwise you seem obsessive). Also, since journals are all subscription based, check Google Scholars and the private websites of labs for copies of papers. They are generally easy to find. Check the references of lab publications (available for free usually) and see if there are some commonly cited papers. They might be worth reading, but in general you won't be asked to have intimate knowledge oft he field.
Once you get interviews, realize that interviews are as much about you checking them out as them checking you out. Don't act crazy, don't be too quiet, feel free to drink a little and relax. These are usually social callings, but the key items they want to find out are how many offers you have, how many places you applied, and basically, if they give you an offer, what is the chance you will accept it. Where ever you are, that is your #1 choice by far. Having been on both sides of the interview process several times now, lack of enthusiasm and a higher-powered school's offer are the two things that will kill you.
Hope that helps and good luck! It isn't as bad as the length of this message makes it out to be. If you're driven and you really want it, you should have a good shot of getting in with a respectable lab. If for some reason you don't get the offers you wanted, think outside the box. It's rare, but maybe volunteer in a lab that was on the fence about admitting you so you can learn techniques. Most students between college and grad school will work as a lab tech until they have the needed experience. The pay is poor and the expectations are sometimes too high, but take it as a blueprint for what you could do.
posted by neuroking at 8:40 AM on June 13, 2008
I took 2 years after graduation to work in science (neuroscience BS, worked as an experimental neurophysiologist), and then 4.5 years as a pharma rep. I hated the job but got caught in the "golden handcuffs" and finally broke free and returned to academia. Now I am a PhD student in neuroscience.
It is a little tough, but remember that grad school is very different from undergrad. You want to apply to labs, not schools, which interest you and you could see yourself working in for your degree work. Make sure they have room and funding, and get in touch with them early and relatively often (don't be annoying, but make contact before any interviews). Use the numbers. By that I mean, apply to as many programs as you can handle.
I worried about my time being out of academia working against me, so I applied to around 15 programs. I got around 10 interviews (5 stretch, 5 good chance, 2 fall backs), turned down 4 of them, and got offers from every place I interviewed with the exception of one school I declined actually during the interview when I got my first offer.
A few other pointers. Your personal statement and letters of reference are very key. Write them, edit them 20 times over, and then prepare versions that are various lengths (some places have 10000 character, or 500 word, or 1500 word requirements). This is where you will lay out what you really want to do and why you have chosen to return to school. Reference letters should have some intimate knowledge of your work. Generally, since you've been out for a while, I would say you want 1, preferably 2 academic-related letters (labs you worked in, advisers, etc.) and 1-2 industry ones. I actually flew down to my alma mater to visit with my refs and talk for a couple hours at least. It might even be worth visiting the schools you are interested in applying to, just so you can meet with labs face-to-face, though that is probably only appropriate if you live close by (otherwise you seem obsessive). Also, since journals are all subscription based, check Google Scholars and the private websites of labs for copies of papers. They are generally easy to find. Check the references of lab publications (available for free usually) and see if there are some commonly cited papers. They might be worth reading, but in general you won't be asked to have intimate knowledge oft he field.
Once you get interviews, realize that interviews are as much about you checking them out as them checking you out. Don't act crazy, don't be too quiet, feel free to drink a little and relax. These are usually social callings, but the key items they want to find out are how many offers you have, how many places you applied, and basically, if they give you an offer, what is the chance you will accept it. Where ever you are, that is your #1 choice by far. Having been on both sides of the interview process several times now, lack of enthusiasm and a higher-powered school's offer are the two things that will kill you.
Hope that helps and good luck! It isn't as bad as the length of this message makes it out to be. If you're driven and you really want it, you should have a good shot of getting in with a respectable lab. If for some reason you don't get the offers you wanted, think outside the box. It's rare, but maybe volunteer in a lab that was on the fence about admitting you so you can learn techniques. Most students between college and grad school will work as a lab tech until they have the needed experience. The pay is poor and the expectations are sometimes too high, but take it as a blueprint for what you could do.
posted by neuroking at 8:40 AM on June 13, 2008
I'll Nth the suggestion to get some fresher experience in a research lab. There are many many bio grad students who go to grad school years after getting their undergrad degrees, and I've never heard of that working against a student. But I don't know anyone who started their PhD without recent wetlab experience. Even if it doesn't end up being a barrier to admission to the program in general, it will defintely hurt your chances of a PI taking you on as a student if they're not confident that you have basic bench skills, and some familiarity with some of the newer lab methods and technologies.
posted by twoporedomain at 8:46 AM on June 13, 2008
posted by twoporedomain at 8:46 AM on June 13, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
One thing you might consider doing is talking to people at local universities to see if there are courses or lectures you could sit in on or even help out in a lab a little bit. You say you're burned out on programming, but bio folks are often looking for help with programming and bioinformatics / modeling / image analysis / etc. coding problems.
posted by pombe at 6:00 PM on June 12, 2008