How do we delicately end this friendship?
May 23, 2008 7:10 AM   Subscribe

ParentingAssistanceFilter! How do I deal with a friend that's a bad influence?

My girlfriend and I have gone around and around this, and can't seem to come up with a solution that doesn't end badly (at least in our heads). Maybe you can help.

My girlfriend's daughter, J, is 9, just a couple weeks shy of 10. She spends half of the week with us, and half of the week with her dad. At our house, she has 2 friends that we consider to be "primary" friends, and 1 or 2 other friends that are kind of "fall-back" friends if the first friends are busy. You know how kids are.

Anyway, we're really ill at ease about one of these "best" friends, who we'll call R. R seems to have a bad influence on J. When R and J are together, they seem to feed off of each other, and incidences of being rude and disrespectful really seem to sky rocket. When R and J spend time together over at R's house, we get the impression that they're not really being supervised adequately - being left in the care of R's teenage sister, for example, and being driven all over town, and all sorts of stuff that just makes us generally ill at ease.

After talking about it, and talking with J's dad, we've decided that we really don't think R and J should be friends anymore.

That's obviously easier said than done. Is there a relatively pain-free way to achieve this result?

J will be moving to a new school in the fall, which will introduce her to new friends and hopefully the problem will take care of itself.. but that still a ways off.

We've discussed getting J involved in more social activities in hopes that she'll meet some new friends and broaden her horizons and move on of her own accord, so that is one possibility.

We're also relatively non-confrontational people, so we'll probably get by for awhile by making lame excuses to J for why the two of them can't play together.... you know, we're busy, we're going somewhere, the car's on fire, so on and so forth.

We've thought about talking to R's parents, and simply explaining that we don't think that they make a good fit as friends, but that path is fraught with peril. We have the impression that R is part of the "popular" crowd at school. J is more introverted, and doesn't have nearly as many friends. She already has had to deal with a little bit of teasing. If R (or her parents) feel like this is rejection - and it certainly is - things could get really ugly for J at school, and we're concerned about that.

This is causing us all sorts of stress. For example, J has a birthday coming up. We were planning on a gala event (or gala for kids that age - laser tag and pizza), but now we're thinking that we may just have it be a "family only" affair, so that we don't have to deal with explaining to J that we don't want R to attend.

It seems incredibly lame to me that we're contemplating canceling a plan that would be uber-fun for J just because of this, but here we are.

Help!
posted by kbanas to Human Relations (32 answers total)
 
I'm not a parent, but I don't think this sounds like a solution. If my parents had told me who I could or could not be friends with, I would have shut them out of that part of my life. I don't think you can control things this way.

Can you get at the problem a different way? Can you talk to your daughter about why it is that you are uncomfortable about her behavior when she's with R? Giving her the trust to make her own decisions and telling her that you're trusting her seems like it would go way farther than a temporary block. You cannot possibly keep her away from bad influences forever. I think if you help her deal with those bad influences and make it clear that you believe she is capable of making good decisions even in the presence of her peers making bad ones would help J much much more in the long run. It "empowers" her to be strong, doesn't damage your trust with her, gives her freedom, and doesn't cause any awkward situations at school.
posted by dosterm at 7:19 AM on May 23, 2008


Don't even try. You cannot choose your child's friends. Wait, she isn't even your child! Talk about bad influences, you're shacking up with her mother and are trying to parent her child?

Even if you were her legitimate stepfather, which you're not, the role of parenting and disciplining belongs to her mother, not you. And even if her mother was trying to discipline her, this is an area in which she has no control over, and trying to get involved will have disastrous consequences.

The girl is responsible for her behaviour, bottom line. If you try to choose her friends for her there will be disastrous consequences. Think of how you would have felt if your parents did this to you, or remember how it felt if they did.
posted by Flying Squirrel at 7:25 AM on May 23, 2008 [1 favorite]


Response by poster: doesterm,

I certainly see what you're saying, but we also don't want her to be in unsafe situations, and it seems like when R and J are together - at R's house - outside of our control - well, we know that every parent has different guidelines for their children and after you've had a couple you probably tend to relax a little bit, but we still feel very .. unsettled.. about some of the things we hear!

I mean, a teenage daughter being left in charge and driving the two kids all over town at night... with her boyfriend, no less... that just rubs us the wrong way all sorts.
posted by kbanas at 7:26 AM on May 23, 2008


Response by poster: Don't even try. You cannot choose your child's friends. Wait, she isn't even your child! Talk about bad influences, you're shacking up with her mother and are trying to parent her child?

I'm not trying to parent her child. I'm bringing the question here on her behalf, and I'm certainly part of the dialogue between her and her ex-husband, but we're all on the same page here.

Thanks.
posted by kbanas at 7:27 AM on May 23, 2008


Have you tried limiting J's interactions with R to times when you are there to supervise and correct the rude behavior that occurs? If anyone from R's family asks, you are simply ensuring that the children are properly supervised, which is a valid concern as a parent of a 10yo. J still has a friend. Responsible parents are correcting inappropriate behavior. The fun filled party can still occur and no one is left out.

When the two do hang out, under your supervision, you can make it clear that being rude will put an early end to the day's activities.
posted by wg at 7:27 AM on May 23, 2008 [2 favorites]


Growing up, my kids would periodically come up with some friend that drove us crazy-- rude, clearly into inappropriate/dangerous behavior, disrespectful, or sometimes just stupid. what we found is that our kids would pretty much always eventually figure this out on their own. They tell me now (one's 22 one's 19) that we just raised them right. We gave them the tools to understand and distinguish healthy and unhealthy.

Your daughter is walking on the wild side here. You need to engage her in nonconfrontational dialog about this friend. It's possible that some of the stuff they are doing (both innocuous stuff like talking back and more potentially dangerous stuff like riding around unsupervised) also makes her uncomfortable. You cannot be judgmental, but you are allowed to set the rules, even if it makes her "hate" you (she doesn't, really). It sounds like you have a good parenting relationship with the X, which is so important. You might try scheduling family-oriented things around the times that her friend is at your house-- meals, have them run to the grocery for milk for you, walk the dog, etc.-- this gives R the opportunity to observe healthy family interaction, gives you an excuse to call either or both of them on disrepectful behavior, and opens up common experiences that may lead later into discussions with J about R.

As far as unsupervised visits, I'd think it's okay to call R's parents and ask about this, and let them know you are uncomfortable having the girls supervised only by the other daughter. You can certainly tell R & J that they can hang out together, just not at R's house w/o the parents there.

A caveat-- they *will* find a way to thwart you. Have a credible punishment ready (you guys can't see each other for a week), make sure that they both know this consequence beforehand, and then follow through. If R encourages J to misbehave when she knows there will be a consequence for being caught, J is going to cue in pretty quickly that this girl does not have her best interests at heart.

Sorry for going on so long, but a final anecdote. My daughter and I were just talking yesterday about a girl she latched onto at the age of 16. This girl was nice enough, but appeared to be stoned much of the time, hung out with a lot of losers and took my kid to parties, shall we say rife with underage drinking. (I found out about all this later.) My daughter dropped her like a hot rock when the girl was rude to my son. Drinking? meh. Drugs? meh. Loser friends? meh. Dis my brother????? I'm outta here. 'nuff sed.
posted by nax at 7:30 AM on May 23, 2008 [4 favorites]


If you want to ensure they stay friends, tell your daughter she can't see R, and/or make up stupid excuses when she tries to see R. If she's not being adequately supervised at R's house, have R over instead. Does J even know what your worries are about her acting up and being rude when she's with R? Is it really R, and not J just being more comfortable around her best friend? I don't see a good ending if you play games with J's friendships.
posted by jeather at 7:31 AM on May 23, 2008 [1 favorite]


Yeah, I really hesitated when answering because I hate to be acting like I have a damn clue about parenting. I just that I do remember strongly rebelling when my parents tried to "interfere" with this type of stuff. I was the first child and they were way too protective. My sister and brother did not get the same type of treatment and I think they were way more ready to deal with the big stuff that can really get you in trouble. Alcohol, drugs, sex, that kind of stuff. Those are the problems you want J to be able to confront later. You can keep her away from R, sure, but it might be good for her to learn to cope with bad influences now, when the potential damage is way lower.

That being said, there's no reason you can control J from going over to R's house unsupervised. Just say "No, you can't go over there unless there's an adult present." You can set ground rules with friendships without ending them.

Disclaimer: my first child will be locked in her/his room until they are 18 and I will use a rusty hook to kill anyone who looks at them funny. It's just natural.
posted by dosterm at 7:36 AM on May 23, 2008


I hung out with a few not-so-desirable friends when I started 5th grade and they were my friends throughout middle school. Once I got to high school, I realized fairly quickly that they were not the right friends for me and I made the effort to distance myself from them.

My parents were not too crazy about my friends either but they made no attempt to try and stop me from hanging out with them...that would've made things much, much worse. Trust me. It might be hard but this is something that J might have to figure out for herself and she'll be much better off that way.

(Unless you feel that something really unsafe is going on).
posted by Diskeater at 7:40 AM on May 23, 2008


Response by poster: Thanks everyone for your answers so far.

I think you all generally have the same point, and it's one I think makes sense - it's obviously better to talk to J and explain things and dialogue with her, rather than just kind of blindly trying to tear them apart, which sounds like it's going to just backfire on us.
posted by kbanas at 7:46 AM on May 23, 2008


J will be moving to a new school in the fall, which will introduce her to new friends and hopefully the problem will take care of itself.. but that still a ways off.

Problem solved. Don't add a bunch of drama to this situation when it's not even going to be an issue in a few months.
posted by burnmp3s at 7:46 AM on May 23, 2008


I think you may be stressing for no reason. But, I can totally empathize. I am a parent and I have had these situations as well. There is one particular good friend that misses a ton of school, whines a lot, he has a habit of starting fights or causing turmoil with my younger son, tries to monopolize my older son's time, is manipulative, etc. And he's only seven. I still let them hang out. I have clear cut rules on how my kids should behave. If they continue to behave well I will let them choose their friends without interference.

I would not be vague with J. There is no reason to beat around the bush and make excuses. Tell her why you are uncomfortable with R. Is J's behavior changing because of R? What is bothering you? If J is getting into trouble forbid them from hanging out for a while. (I know you want to end the friendship forever.) If J is getting into trouble, say something like, "I can't let you hang out with R until I feel sure you're going to learn how to make better choices when you're with her."

They're only nine. I would not get yourself worked up over a birthday party. Do not cancel the kid birthday party. (Again, I can sympathize because I have found myself fretting over these very things, and trust me, they are not worth fretting over.) Invite R. Invite all of your daughter's friends. Do you feel incapable of managing a bunch of 9 year-olds? You can do it, even if there is a couple bad apples. Set down some guidelines. There are going to be a lot of friends here. I want you to be kind to every friend. They are your guests. It would be rude if you and R grouped up together and left the other children out. I expect you to be on your best behavior and make every kid feel welcome.

If your child is having fun, enjoys R's company, and is staying out of trouble, there should be no worries. I always try to remember that these friends are innocent kids with different personalities and different home situations and stresses. Try to give the friend a break. Can they still hang out if they are in your house and not under the supervision of a teenager?

Never criticize your child's choice in friends. If a friend is not right for them, they'll figure it out for themselves.

I know you want to sever all ties, but think about it more.
posted by LoriFLA at 7:50 AM on May 23, 2008


My mom once made it clear that she didn't like a friend of mine when I was about 12, and it made me all the more intent on being friends with her--not because I was a rebellious kid but because this was my friend and I cared about her. That interference just made me more loyal to my friend. Of course, looking back on that friendship, the girl was completely obnoxious. We grew apart eventually as I realized how awful she was, but I think it would have happened sooner had my mom not offered her opinion of the girl.

On the other hand, when my parents refused to let me do something--play at a particular friend's house, go to a particular event, etc.--I'd whine and complain and beg them to change their minds. But I never connected "you can't go there/do that" with "we don't approve of the friend('s parents/babysitter) you'd be going there/doing that with" even if that was their real motivation. I think that's your best bet: keep your opinions of this girl to yourself, but take a more proactive role in ensuring that the girls' time together is supervised by responsible adults.
posted by Meg_Murry at 7:57 AM on May 23, 2008


If you're concerned about what happens when they hang out at her house, don't let her hang out at R's house. Say that R can come over, but J can't go to R's. Since they're going to be split up soon anyway, it should probably solve itself.
posted by fructose at 8:03 AM on May 23, 2008 [2 favorites]


IANA parent, but I was once a kid. When I wasn't allowed to do things, I chalked it up to "my parents are mean and don't want me to have fun" and not "my parents are wiser than me and realize that this thing I want is a bad idea."

J is probably young enough to think this way, too. So for J's sake, you guys need to sit down with her and explain exactly why you guys think R is a bad influence. Just saying "she's a bad influence" or "you shouldn't hang out with her anymore" will make R look really, really cool.

Instead of trying to break them up, limit their hanging out to your turf for at least a few months; if that goes well, allow J to go over to R's only if you are sure there will be adequate supervision. R will likely be a little more subdued at your place. If J's only interested in R because of her wild side, the friendship might fade on its own.

When I was young, bad-influence friends were appealing because they were so bad, and I could live vicariously through their backtalking, misdemeanors, and truancy. But at heart I knew I was just a tourist in their world. It's probable J feels this way too.

Please don't be passive-aggressive about this; it seems like a really bad idea to be passive-aggressive to a kid. Talking about "not a good fit" is for crappy first dates and failed job interviews where you're both adults and don't have to see each other again. And cancelling a birthday party because you don't want R there? That's "my parents don't want me to have fun" if I've ever heard it. Kids can't always guess their parents' intentions. You owe it to J to be straightforward in your approval and disapproval of her friends.
posted by Metroid Baby at 8:05 AM on May 23, 2008


nax has got it. Don't flat out end the friendship, just make sure that it all takes place under your supervision. Simple, to the point, and will accomplish everything you need. Oh, and don't cancel the birthday party. J will be totally crushed and miserable and really, unless she's done something incredibly heinous, far worse than hanging out with a bad girl for a friend, that's a very harsh punishment for a 10 year old.
posted by mygothlaundry at 8:09 AM on May 23, 2008 [3 favorites]


I think there is some good advice here.

Just wanted to say that bashing you for wanting to help parent your girlfriend's daughter and characterizing your relationship as "shacking up" was very narrow minded and judgemental.

Kudos to you for being involved in this girl's life and for partnering with her mother on child rearing.
posted by InstantSanitizer at 8:11 AM on May 23, 2008 [2 favorites]


If a step-parent or love interest of the parent tries to parent, that child will very legitimately say "you're not my mom/dad."

May be a controversial opinion, but I really don't think it's a good idea when anyone other than the parent tries to discipline that child. The role of a step-parent is to be a good friend and a good host, not the disciplinarian.
posted by Flying Squirrel at 8:15 AM on May 23, 2008


I agree with nax and fructose. Considering that this is only an issue for the summer, welcoming R into your home while not allowing J to go to R's house seems as close to a perfect compromise as you're going to get. It's not the kids' fault that they're not properly supervised when they're over there. If her parents are offended, or if J wants to know why, you can simply use the supervision issue as the reason. No need to get into any personality issues you may have with the child.
posted by lampoil at 8:17 AM on May 23, 2008


Flying Squirrel- you are making a lot of assumptions about the arrangements b/w the poster and his girlfriend when it comes to parenting her daughter. If the girl's mother has invited him to be involved, then he, as a grown up, as part of the household, or, family, can take on a parental role. He can do this without undermining the girl's relationships with her parents, and without attempting to replace a father that the girl already has.
posted by InstantSanitizer at 8:21 AM on May 23, 2008


Many others have touched on several other things I was going to say, but there's one thing I wanted to say. There's no delicate way to say it, and I don't know you or your child. But I remember middle school painful clearly.

Teachers, other parents, my own parents: they are nearly always wrong about who the "bad influence" is in any situation.
posted by peep at 8:25 AM on May 23, 2008 [1 favorite]


The rule at my house growing up - and it will be the rule when my daughter starts having friends... "Oh, you're going over to R's house - let me just call her mom to make sure it's ok.". Mom's not there - J can't be there. Then it's not about the friendship - it's about rules of supervision that you enforce not with just R but with all of J's friends. Why on earth would you let a nine year old be technically unsupervised (a teen aged sister with her boyfriend is not paying your girl friend's daughter any attention at all). That seems like the worst part of this story to me. She's 9!!! The possibilities of badness that could befall her in that situation are endless...
posted by Wolfie at 8:51 AM on May 23, 2008


Time to step up, I'd say. At least part of parenting is about making hard decisions that kids may resent and "hate" you for.

However, don't frame it in terms of whether or not they can be friends though. Just in terms of: "because of this behavior, you may not spend time with this friend." Or restrict their interactions in some way. I had to do this recently with my daughter and actually un-invite a couple of friends to her birthday party. I hated doing it and at least one parent hasn't forgiven me, but the kids were in a negative spiral with each other, and I told her that this was exactly why. She actually appreciated it eventually since I took the heat off her by taking responsibility for the decision. She's got to a much better place with these "friends" as a result.

Focus on J's behavior. That is what is bugging you. If J can fix her behavior, then she'll get to spend time with R. If not, she won't. You need to give a clear signal that J's behavior is unacceptable.
posted by idb at 9:08 AM on May 23, 2008


I believe that as parents you can only try to instill certain values on your children as they grow up and then at some point let them loose in the world. Prohibitions will never work; worse, they will cause great pain in your relationship with J. You have to learn to trust her to do the right thing while she's with this "bad influence", when she's with boys, when she's around drugs and alcohol, etc., etc. .

This is not about R. It's not even about J. It's about you. Can you trust your daughter?
posted by sic at 9:16 AM on May 23, 2008


You suggested you might use the lame excuse method. Don't do that. J will figure it out and she'll lose respect for you.

Here is what you can do - set standards for your (step) child. Tell J clearly that it doesn't matter what R is allowed to do. In your family, there are specific standards that J must respect. There is no disrespectful behavior. There is no hanging out a friends house unless a parent is there. There is no riding in cars with teenage drivers. None of these standards are about R. These are your standards for your family.

One thing that I greatly respect about my parents is that my friends were always welcome in our home. However, my friends were expected to respect our house rules. Even on small stuff, they had to work with our family rules. As in, my Dad tell my friends to tuck their shirts in to come to the dinner table. I had the friends I wanted. My parents maintained control over my safety and behavior. My most unruly friends had some adults who demonstrated structure and control. It was good for everyone.
posted by 26.2 at 9:17 AM on May 23, 2008 [5 favorites]


Didn't you have friends when you were a kid that your folks didn't like? I sure did. And even when I actually thought that girl really was a bitch, sometimes it was worth it for other social reasons to maintain the friendship. Trying to break up J and R will likely result in tears for everyone and heartfelt and dramatic groundswells of loyalty by J for R. Has J ever tried to explain some "fight" that she's having with a friend that sounds like complete gibberish to you? Girls (I can't speak for boys) have their own social universe, and sometimes it's nonsensical to parents, and you have to let them figure it out themselves.

Trying to explain to R's parents that you don't approve of R is a terrible idea not only because it will earn J some evil teasing and humiliation, but c'mon, since when can you tell another parent how to parent their kid?

Instead of trying to explain that you don't like R, I agree that the best policy is to focus on J's behavior. Ask her about it. Not in a general way, like "every time R is here you two are like x," but in a very incident-specific, way. J, what was wrong with you today at lunch? You sure had a lot of eyerolling to do and negative things to say. That's not cool." (Nthing having the girls over to your house, too.)

I mean, a teenage daughter being left in charge and driving the two kids all over town at night... with her boyfriend, no less... that just rubs us the wrong way all sorts.

I can completely understand why you're not comfortable with the girls being driven around by a teenager, and I'd be ticked too. But as for leaving them home with the sister, well, 16 certainly is normal babysitting age.

Also consider that perhaps the version of events you're getting is designed to shock you. You obviously have every right to be concerned, but try to play it cool, because a big YOU DID WHAT! is delicious attention -- how often do you get to shock your parents when you're nine? Be aware, the next argument is, "we did it that one time and we were fine, so this proves that it's perfectly safe."
posted by desuetude at 9:45 AM on May 23, 2008


When we were in a similar situation, the rule became that my daughter (8 almost 9) could only hang out/play/whatever with the "problem friend" (not a term I used to characterize the other girl in conversation with my daughter, just short-hand here) at OUR house, under my supervision. When pressed about why (by my daughter), I tried to be frank but not entirely specific -- "I don't know X's dad/mom that well, and I'd prefer that you guys play together at our house" -- and eventually over the course of several conversations, it became clear to her that those were the terms of this specific friendship. It's a bit awkward navigating it without making my daughter feel judged ("mom thinks X is a bad person, therefore I am a bad person, because I like X and think she's great"), giving her too much grown-up information (everyone knows that the problem friend is problematic because of a problem-plagued parenting situation), or quashing her very natural inclination to pair up with a friend who's quite different than her. But it's important, I think, to let her figure some of this friend stuff out for herself -- within the confines of some ground rules that I can only really set and monitor now precisely because she's almost 9 and not almost 16.
posted by mothershock at 10:06 AM on May 23, 2008


In all honesty, it's very rarely a 'bad seed' who is forcing the child to do things they do not want to do. You mentioned in the post that 'they feed off of each other'--does it occur to neither of you that this is the result of BOTH children, as opposed to one swaying the other? If you forbid contact with one friend it will only instill a sense of oppression in the child and she will find OTHER friends with whom she can act as she pleases.

Honestly, there is nothing you can do. Just tell the parent to do what they would do normally, to be there, to be supportive. Imposing yourself in the situation will only make things drastically worse.
posted by nonmerci at 10:21 AM on May 23, 2008 [1 favorite]


I think you all generally have the same point, and it's one I think makes sense - it's obviously better to talk to J and explain things and dialogue with her, rather than just kind of blindly trying to tear them apart, which sounds like it's going to just backfire on us.

I don't think that's exactly the point that's being made -- I think that 26.2 has it nailed. As a non-confrontational person myself, and knowing how my own chilluns could potentially react (lord knows I see this EXACT situation on the horizon), I don't see that dialogue, in this case, will help. Setting the family rules, and expecting everyone to abide by them, sounds super to me. You may get the reputation as the 'strict' parents, but you keep control of unknown situations on your hands, for the most part.

My parents also welcomed all of my friends -- dirtbags or not -- into our house. As in 26.2's case, they had to play by my parent's rules. The ones who weren't interested, lost interest in our friendship -- mission accomplished!

Good luck!
posted by liquado at 10:39 AM on May 23, 2008


Lots of good advice here. I'd add that when you talk to J, I'd suggest you be straightforward but avoid terms like "bad influence," which, depending on J's perceptiveness, might insult her or make her think you believe she's easily controlled or unable to make decisions for herself. I would describe the specific behaviors/incidents that concern you, tell her you'd like to support her still being friends with R, and tell her for the time being she and R need to play at your house, but not if they can't behave respectfully. Ask her what she feels a reasonable consequence would be if she and R continue exhibit the disrespectful behaviors at your house. Follow through on those consequences. Keep the birthday party as-is, but discuss expectations in advance. Ride it out until next school year.

(Also, FWIW, in my experience working with pre-teen and teenage girls, I've found the "bad seeds" usually are a product of their environment, and often turn things around with some positive interaction and structure.)
posted by justonegirl at 10:48 AM on May 23, 2008


May be a controversial opinion, but I really don't think it's a good idea when anyone other than the parent tries to discipline that child. The role of a step-parent is to be a good friend and a good host, not the disciplinarian.

The role of a step-parent is to be a parent, by definition.
posted by oneirodynia at 1:02 PM on May 23, 2008


If a step-parent or love interest of the parent tries to parent, that child will very legitimately say "you're not my mom/dad."

Yeah, but a stepchild will also say things like that if the stepparent does anything ELSE they consider "obnoxious," which, depending on the child, could be anything from serving tuna casserole to breaking wind. I hardly consider a child's petulance to be just cause to wash your hands of parenting them. Especially if this is a step child, which usually implies that you are MARRIED to one of the parents.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:12 PM on May 23, 2008


« Older Places to play poker in Manhattan?   |   What is the desert warfare definition of a 'box'? Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.