machismo 101
May 22, 2008 8:40 PM Subscribe
How can I be more macho?
I have noticed a theme in my relationships that I want to change. I tend to be three things that, in concert, sorta spell the kiss of death:
1: I tend to be fairly affectionate. I like a lot of physical contact.
2: I tend to talk a lot about feelings and try to analyze through them. Frequently this is when feeling down or such as that.
3: I tend to be overly concerned with my partner's happiness, and generally put it ahead of mine.
The result is that I think I tend to come across as not very "manly"... Or sort of fragile or something. This seems to be a turn-off to the women that I have had relationships with, and is regular enough that it is patently clear that the common denominator here is me.
So how do I do this? I am thinking be more emotionally distant. Maybe step back and let them be affectionate to *me* on occasion instead of always reaching out to pat or hug them. The intention there is good, and I know that I can be totally self-sufficient and all, but I fear that over-affection may come off as clingy or something.
Anyway, yeah. Any tips on being more of a man's man? From a personality standpoint moreso than hobbies, etc. No matter how much you try, you will not get me to like sports.
I have noticed a theme in my relationships that I want to change. I tend to be three things that, in concert, sorta spell the kiss of death:
1: I tend to be fairly affectionate. I like a lot of physical contact.
2: I tend to talk a lot about feelings and try to analyze through them. Frequently this is when feeling down or such as that.
3: I tend to be overly concerned with my partner's happiness, and generally put it ahead of mine.
The result is that I think I tend to come across as not very "manly"... Or sort of fragile or something. This seems to be a turn-off to the women that I have had relationships with, and is regular enough that it is patently clear that the common denominator here is me.
So how do I do this? I am thinking be more emotionally distant. Maybe step back and let them be affectionate to *me* on occasion instead of always reaching out to pat or hug them. The intention there is good, and I know that I can be totally self-sufficient and all, but I fear that over-affection may come off as clingy or something.
Anyway, yeah. Any tips on being more of a man's man? From a personality standpoint moreso than hobbies, etc. No matter how much you try, you will not get me to like sports.
What notsnot said.
To be a little more detailed.. people trying to be something they aren't are not really the kind of people anyone intelligent wants to be dating. Keeping up a facade is impossible in the long run.
And even more detailed:
1: I tend to be fairly affectionate. I like a lot of physical contact.
I think it's reasonable to say that on average, most women like this. As long as it's affection, and not always I-hugged-you-let's-have-sex-now-pls.
2: I tend to talk a lot about feelings and try to analyze through them. Frequently this is when feeling down or such as that.
See above. There is nothing more frustrating than someone who bottles up their emotions, refuses to deal with them, refuses to be introspective.
3: I tend to be overly concerned with my partner's happiness, and generally put it ahead of mine.
The first part of this is good. The second part is sometimes good--find a balance.
Honestly? You sound like the guy all of my female friends want to be dating.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 8:56 PM on May 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
To be a little more detailed.. people trying to be something they aren't are not really the kind of people anyone intelligent wants to be dating. Keeping up a facade is impossible in the long run.
And even more detailed:
1: I tend to be fairly affectionate. I like a lot of physical contact.
I think it's reasonable to say that on average, most women like this. As long as it's affection, and not always I-hugged-you-let's-have-sex-now-pls.
2: I tend to talk a lot about feelings and try to analyze through them. Frequently this is when feeling down or such as that.
See above. There is nothing more frustrating than someone who bottles up their emotions, refuses to deal with them, refuses to be introspective.
3: I tend to be overly concerned with my partner's happiness, and generally put it ahead of mine.
The first part of this is good. The second part is sometimes good--find a balance.
Honestly? You sound like the guy all of my female friends want to be dating.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 8:56 PM on May 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
3: I tend to be overly concerned with my partner's happiness, and generally put it ahead of mine.
This seems key to me. I've been on the receiving end of this, and it seems to imply either:
posted by amtho at 8:57 PM on May 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
This seems key to me. I've been on the receiving end of this, and it seems to imply either:
- You don't think your happiness is important because you don't think _you_ are important; this is a whole self-esteem thing, and needs to be solved for a lot of reasons.
- You expect/believe that your relationshipee is somehow perfect, divine, or in need of protection. None of these are good places for a woman to live. The pressure to be perfect -- even if you don't mean to bring pressure -- is awful; if she ignores your desire for her to be worthy of such self-abnegation, she can feel callous or just mean. And being coddled as a thing to be protected is confining.
posted by amtho at 8:57 PM on May 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
the man i'm dating right now embodies exactly those three traits you listed—and those are the things i absolutely love about him. he's the first man i have dated who is truly emotionally available and aware—and has made me realize just how wrong a tree i was barking up in the past with all the emotionally distant men i dated. that said, he balances it out by being very athletic (surfer and climber) as well as being an incredibly handy guy. he also makes me feel taken care of which makes me feel happy and secure.
so what i'm saying is: don't give up your affectionate and introspective nature…but maybe balance those things out with activities and hobbies that are considered more "manly"—but only if you enjoy those things. it's that balance that makes a person really attractive.
posted by violetk at 9:00 PM on May 22, 2008
so what i'm saying is: don't give up your affectionate and introspective nature…but maybe balance those things out with activities and hobbies that are considered more "manly"—but only if you enjoy those things. it's that balance that makes a person really attractive.
posted by violetk at 9:00 PM on May 22, 2008
There's always the Art of Manliness blog to review. However, the "macho" thing is likely not the issue , the "clingy" "needy" might be what you should be moving away from , and not necessarily toward Macho, Macho man. Be yourself, your self sufficient self.
posted by Agamenticus at 9:01 PM on May 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Agamenticus at 9:01 PM on May 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Don't be a pussy who posts anonymous questions on the internet. And lest this answer be deleted as snarky and non-responsive, it goes to the attitude of all the macho guys I know: self confidence. In fact, so much self confidence that you go with your gut instinct to the bitter end, even if you look like an idiot doing so. As an example I put forth one of the most macho guys I know, an elite military guy (this and other details left vague to preserve anonymity) now an officer in a motorcycle club and works a job that involves a lot of physical training and weapons, has won more than one tattoo contest, yet is such a bad speller that he has his own address misspelled on his business card. Even after having it pointed out to him he leaves it that way rather than admit he fucked up. If this makes being macho a bit less attractive, so be it. On the other hand, there are women that are attracted to him. And based on my friend (despite all the above, he is a good guy in many ways) if you don't like sports, there's always NASCAR.
posted by TedW at 9:02 PM on May 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by TedW at 9:02 PM on May 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
I think your three "problems" could be absolutely appealing and wonderful qualities in a man—assuming that the three behaviors are done sincerely and in moderation. Why you have associated these great abilities with "femaleness" and would therefore want to reject them because you think it takes away from your "manliness" is kinda mindboggling to me. How are you going to find an awesome, affectionate and loving girl who sees you for who you are by adopting a tired stereotype? You'd more than likely wind up playing a game, and attract the type of girl who is playing one too. Sounds more like drama than healthy adult relationship. Or even healthy adult fantasy.
Good luck to you with this question, but I personally think your energy would be better spent finding someone who likes you just the way you are than trying to cultivate a new personality in the hopes of finding a great girl who is happily duped by the new, distant you.
posted by iamkimiam at 9:04 PM on May 22, 2008
Good luck to you with this question, but I personally think your energy would be better spent finding someone who likes you just the way you are than trying to cultivate a new personality in the hopes of finding a great girl who is happily duped by the new, distant you.
posted by iamkimiam at 9:04 PM on May 22, 2008
Are you sure you want to be more macho or do you really just want to be accepted for who you are? Maybe you just need to date a different type of woman.
As to being macho, just be more assertive. Doing this means caring less what people feel about you. Are you capable of living like that?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:07 PM on May 22, 2008
As to being macho, just be more assertive. Doing this means caring less what people feel about you. Are you capable of living like that?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:07 PM on May 22, 2008
Your list of 1,2, and 3 are not incompatible with being "macho."
Maybe what you're feeling here is that no-one's been doing things for you without being asked. Go ahead and tell your partner(s) what you'd like.
posted by porpoise at 9:09 PM on May 22, 2008
Maybe what you're feeling here is that no-one's been doing things for you without being asked. Go ahead and tell your partner(s) what you'd like.
posted by porpoise at 9:09 PM on May 22, 2008
Notsnot, don't confuse Macho with stoicism, one of the basic Man qualities.
Some wise poster(here or on the blue) once said:
"Between the Bay of Assholes and the Lake of Pussies, is the Pool of Good Men".
In other words: All around good men who know when do be affectionate and emotional, and at the same time, don't take any shit from anyone.
In terms of personality, it all boils down to confidence. Confidence in speech, action, and appearance. There is no one way to do it, but all the men I've admired have these qualities.
Growing up with a part-time father I know how you feel on this discovery process, and after spending time in the Lake and the Bay I'm finding my own middle ground.
posted by limited slip at 9:16 PM on May 22, 2008 [7 favorites]
Some wise poster(here or on the blue) once said:
"Between the Bay of Assholes and the Lake of Pussies, is the Pool of Good Men".
In other words: All around good men who know when do be affectionate and emotional, and at the same time, don't take any shit from anyone.
In terms of personality, it all boils down to confidence. Confidence in speech, action, and appearance. There is no one way to do it, but all the men I've admired have these qualities.
Growing up with a part-time father I know how you feel on this discovery process, and after spending time in the Lake and the Bay I'm finding my own middle ground.
posted by limited slip at 9:16 PM on May 22, 2008 [7 favorites]
I agree with the idea that this is more of a self-confidence issue than a machismo issue. To resolve this, you must work on your confidence without actually trying to distance yourself from your girlfriend, which would be equally annoying.
You might be coming across as overly doting or, as you said, clingy. Neither of these things is what I think of as being attractive in a man, but it can be a balance that's difficult to figure out. What I wonder is if, while you're so concerned about your girlfriend's happiness, you fall into the trap of leaving all decisions up to her. For example, what to do for fun, what to eat for dinner, or even what she wants you to buy her for her birthday. This is boring and can be extremely frustrating for a woman who doesn't want to predict every moment of her life with her boyfriend. Now, you didn't say you actually do this, but I'm interested to hear if I'm right - mainly if this illustrates what you said about being more concerned about her happiness than your own.
Basically, I think I can speak for most women when I say I want a boyfriend who is interesting. Liking sports isn't something I find interesting, so don't think about being macho in the stereotypical sense. Just figure out what YOU like to do and then do it. Don't just be a void for her to fill.
posted by wondermouse at 9:16 PM on May 22, 2008 [3 favorites]
You might be coming across as overly doting or, as you said, clingy. Neither of these things is what I think of as being attractive in a man, but it can be a balance that's difficult to figure out. What I wonder is if, while you're so concerned about your girlfriend's happiness, you fall into the trap of leaving all decisions up to her. For example, what to do for fun, what to eat for dinner, or even what she wants you to buy her for her birthday. This is boring and can be extremely frustrating for a woman who doesn't want to predict every moment of her life with her boyfriend. Now, you didn't say you actually do this, but I'm interested to hear if I'm right - mainly if this illustrates what you said about being more concerned about her happiness than your own.
Basically, I think I can speak for most women when I say I want a boyfriend who is interesting. Liking sports isn't something I find interesting, so don't think about being macho in the stereotypical sense. Just figure out what YOU like to do and then do it. Don't just be a void for her to fill.
posted by wondermouse at 9:16 PM on May 22, 2008 [3 favorites]
Mind fine. Attitude fine. Go get fit.
posted by flabdablet at 9:20 PM on May 22, 2008
posted by flabdablet at 9:20 PM on May 22, 2008
Girls that go after macho guys aren't worth having. Macho is everything that is wrong with the world.
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I mean in a while.
Anyway, #1 shouldn't be a problem. #2, just remember to work on sharing your emotions when you're feeling good, and while you should be able to talk about things that are bothering you, no one wants to deal with someone else's negativity. And with #3, it can be annoying sometimes when people are too worried about how you feel because it can make it hard to figure out what they really want.
Also, hit the gym and put on some muscles and lose some weight (if you need too). Nothing builds self confidence like physical fitness.
posted by delmoi at 9:21 PM on May 22, 2008
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I mean in a while.
Anyway, #1 shouldn't be a problem. #2, just remember to work on sharing your emotions when you're feeling good, and while you should be able to talk about things that are bothering you, no one wants to deal with someone else's negativity. And with #3, it can be annoying sometimes when people are too worried about how you feel because it can make it hard to figure out what they really want.
Also, hit the gym and put on some muscles and lose some weight (if you need too). Nothing builds self confidence like physical fitness.
posted by delmoi at 9:21 PM on May 22, 2008
Your empathy and affection are positive traits. You don't need to walk away from them in order to achieve the balance you desire in your relationships. If you think you're being perceived as clingy, though, you might need to project more confidence or independence. Self-sufficiency as a single person is not quite the same as self-sufficiency within a relationship, where you must be very close to another human being and yet maintain your own individuality.
Sometimes the right thing is to acknowledge her needs without placing them above your own. If you always prioritize what you think she wants, you implicitly set a very difficult standard for how she'll feel expected to treat you. Not caring for your own needs may be interpreted as lack of respect for yourself. And if you are always projecting your affections you aren't leaving much space to be receptive to hers.
posted by rhiannon at 9:27 PM on May 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Sometimes the right thing is to acknowledge her needs without placing them above your own. If you always prioritize what you think she wants, you implicitly set a very difficult standard for how she'll feel expected to treat you. Not caring for your own needs may be interpreted as lack of respect for yourself. And if you are always projecting your affections you aren't leaving much space to be receptive to hers.
posted by rhiannon at 9:27 PM on May 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
What works for me: Less time on effete Metafilter, more time reading about the macho Mexican revolution. There is no man's man like Francisco Madero!
posted by johngoren at 9:30 PM on May 22, 2008
posted by johngoren at 9:30 PM on May 22, 2008
Are you happy, in general, whether or not you're with someone? People generally like to be in relationships with other people who are already generally pretty happy and stable without necessarily needing another person to complete them. Machismo is not really relevant to that.
posted by padraigin at 9:36 PM on May 22, 2008
posted by padraigin at 9:36 PM on May 22, 2008
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I mean in a while.
I might say the opposite. Seriously, if you happened to date a series of girls who were attracted to some other quality you don't possess, would you change to match it? What if she liked the heroin chic look? Guys who listen to Barry Manilow? What if she only liked dudes one foot taller than you are? At what point are you going to be willing to concede that you can't/won't/shouldn't change? I've had a lot of my male friends go through this "arg girls don't like nice guys so if I'm just a dick then they will like me better a-ha!" I can see where this would come from, but I don't think it's a useful tactic.
The opposite of being clingy/needy shouldn't be macho...nor should it be your goal. Why play mind games which will only be harder on you? If your default is to be cuddly and sweet, being cold and distant is going to be this horrible ruse you have to keep up. Could you try aiming for a neutral, positive expression of your feelings? Try to seek out and learn about her boundaries before you start putting yourself out there, so you don't scare her off. I know a lot of people who are off-put by over the top expressions of love/feelings, because they have been burned in the past and think that you're just saying what you think they want to hear. Don't put her first just so you can be a martyr-like hero who is willing to give everything for her. Just be you. Emotionally distant is often attractive to people who are working through serious issues of their own...is that where you want to go with this?
Try showing girls that you care instead of telling them...if you call someone every day to tell them you love them, yes, that could come off as clingy. But for every other time you would normally talk about your feelings, do or plan something to communicate those feelings in another way. Physical affection is one (if she digs it...again, respect boundaries and make sure she's comfortable with it). Write her a short note, draw her a cartoon, plan a surprise picnic...whatever. When you do feel the need to analyze/discuss/pore over the details of your relationship try to find a sounding board first...a friend, therapist, journal, whatevs. Don't just spew out emotion and expect someone to wait there to lap it up. Think about what your needs are and express them as openly as you can without dumping your emotions over them.
Finding someone who likes you for you is not easy, but it's not going to get any easier by fronting yourself to be something completely other than what you are.
posted by SassHat at 9:42 PM on May 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
I might say the opposite. Seriously, if you happened to date a series of girls who were attracted to some other quality you don't possess, would you change to match it? What if she liked the heroin chic look? Guys who listen to Barry Manilow? What if she only liked dudes one foot taller than you are? At what point are you going to be willing to concede that you can't/won't/shouldn't change? I've had a lot of my male friends go through this "arg girls don't like nice guys so if I'm just a dick then they will like me better a-ha!" I can see where this would come from, but I don't think it's a useful tactic.
The opposite of being clingy/needy shouldn't be macho...nor should it be your goal. Why play mind games which will only be harder on you? If your default is to be cuddly and sweet, being cold and distant is going to be this horrible ruse you have to keep up. Could you try aiming for a neutral, positive expression of your feelings? Try to seek out and learn about her boundaries before you start putting yourself out there, so you don't scare her off. I know a lot of people who are off-put by over the top expressions of love/feelings, because they have been burned in the past and think that you're just saying what you think they want to hear. Don't put her first just so you can be a martyr-like hero who is willing to give everything for her. Just be you. Emotionally distant is often attractive to people who are working through serious issues of their own...is that where you want to go with this?
Try showing girls that you care instead of telling them...if you call someone every day to tell them you love them, yes, that could come off as clingy. But for every other time you would normally talk about your feelings, do or plan something to communicate those feelings in another way. Physical affection is one (if she digs it...again, respect boundaries and make sure she's comfortable with it). Write her a short note, draw her a cartoon, plan a surprise picnic...whatever. When you do feel the need to analyze/discuss/pore over the details of your relationship try to find a sounding board first...a friend, therapist, journal, whatevs. Don't just spew out emotion and expect someone to wait there to lap it up. Think about what your needs are and express them as openly as you can without dumping your emotions over them.
Finding someone who likes you for you is not easy, but it's not going to get any easier by fronting yourself to be something completely other than what you are.
posted by SassHat at 9:42 PM on May 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
The notion that emotional distance equals manliness is -- sorry -- shit that came out of a bull. Really.
My boyfriend is, in a lot of ways, the archetypal guy's guy. He's got arms like Popeye, can fix anything, drinks and swears like a sailor, and took me to a gun range on our second date. (Best. Second. Date. Ever.)
He's also the warmest, most affectionate guy I've ever known. He's fundamentally happy with himself and at ease in his own skin. He understands his own feelings, expresses them honestly and openly, and has helped teach me -- after many years of not quite knowing how to express myself with emotional honesty to my own partners -- not to be afraid of my own sadness, anger, and fear. All of this makes him the manliest guy I've ever had the great fortune to know.
His ability to be loving -- to me, to himself, and to the others he cares about -- doesn't mean, however, that he places my happiness above his own. That's not to say he doesn't care very deeply about my happiness, because he certainly does (just as I care deeply about his); it's that in a healthy relationship, one partner's happiness cannot come at the other's expense. In a nutshell, we are on the same team. I've got his back, and he has mine. And when we have conflicts (as all couples inevitably do), it's not that one of us has to win; it's that we both have to find a solution, in a way that takes both our needs into account.
posted by scody at 9:54 PM on May 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
My boyfriend is, in a lot of ways, the archetypal guy's guy. He's got arms like Popeye, can fix anything, drinks and swears like a sailor, and took me to a gun range on our second date. (Best. Second. Date. Ever.)
He's also the warmest, most affectionate guy I've ever known. He's fundamentally happy with himself and at ease in his own skin. He understands his own feelings, expresses them honestly and openly, and has helped teach me -- after many years of not quite knowing how to express myself with emotional honesty to my own partners -- not to be afraid of my own sadness, anger, and fear. All of this makes him the manliest guy I've ever had the great fortune to know.
His ability to be loving -- to me, to himself, and to the others he cares about -- doesn't mean, however, that he places my happiness above his own. That's not to say he doesn't care very deeply about my happiness, because he certainly does (just as I care deeply about his); it's that in a healthy relationship, one partner's happiness cannot come at the other's expense. In a nutshell, we are on the same team. I've got his back, and he has mine. And when we have conflicts (as all couples inevitably do), it's not that one of us has to win; it's that we both have to find a solution, in a way that takes both our needs into account.
posted by scody at 9:54 PM on May 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
Just to second that emotional distance does not make a man in a woman's world. It guarantess a bad partner, disrespect, and hurt.
Be consistent. Do gentlemanly things.
But most important, nurture your character. Look for good character in women. Because the people around you should improve, if you are being good for them. You cannot cater for those who are unable to.
posted by Jurate at 10:20 PM on May 22, 2008
Be consistent. Do gentlemanly things.
But most important, nurture your character. Look for good character in women. Because the people around you should improve, if you are being good for them. You cannot cater for those who are unable to.
posted by Jurate at 10:20 PM on May 22, 2008
wondermouse has it. Are you trying to be caring and considerate by being TOO flexible, leaving all decisions up to her? Don't do that. It's a rare person who wants that level of deference in a partner; it can feel like she is being asked to do all the work while you come along for the ride.
You don't need to change your personality, just become more willing to make a definite suggestion ("would you like to see Iron Man tonight?"), and rein in your urge to start a discussion about whether that's okay ("would that be ok? maybe Sex and the City, because I know how you love that. Or would you like something else instead?"). Trust your partner to say "nah, I don't want to see that one" if she doesn't. Making a definite suggestion is not being pushy or controlling.
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:28 PM on May 22, 2008 [3 favorites]
You don't need to change your personality, just become more willing to make a definite suggestion ("would you like to see Iron Man tonight?"), and rein in your urge to start a discussion about whether that's okay ("would that be ok? maybe Sex and the City, because I know how you love that. Or would you like something else instead?"). Trust your partner to say "nah, I don't want to see that one" if she doesn't. Making a definite suggestion is not being pushy or controlling.
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:28 PM on May 22, 2008 [3 favorites]
I call bullshit on this question.
I tend to be three things that, in concert, sorta spell the kiss of death:
1: I tend to be fairly affectionate. I like a lot of physical contact.
2: I tend to talk a lot about feelings and try to analyze through them. Frequently this is when feeling down or such as that.
3: I tend to be overly concerned with my partner's happiness, and generally put it ahead of mine.
There is absolutely no way (if you actually do possess these qualities) that these are the qualities that are causing you problems in relationships. What it sounds like to me is that you've been having problems, you've been burned, you're hurting... and instead of figuring out what you're doing wrong (and you may not be doing anything "wrong" - relationships fail for infinite reasons) you've come up with this vaguely misogynistic theory that your *best* purported qualities are a turn off to women. Because women, per this theory:
1. Hate affection and physical contact
2. Hate to talk about feelings
3. Hate it when partners care about their happiness.
Either most women are stoic, frigid masochists who hate hugs....
or you are thinking about things in entirely the wrong way.
posted by moxiedoll at 10:30 PM on May 22, 2008 [7 favorites]
I tend to be three things that, in concert, sorta spell the kiss of death:
1: I tend to be fairly affectionate. I like a lot of physical contact.
2: I tend to talk a lot about feelings and try to analyze through them. Frequently this is when feeling down or such as that.
3: I tend to be overly concerned with my partner's happiness, and generally put it ahead of mine.
There is absolutely no way (if you actually do possess these qualities) that these are the qualities that are causing you problems in relationships. What it sounds like to me is that you've been having problems, you've been burned, you're hurting... and instead of figuring out what you're doing wrong (and you may not be doing anything "wrong" - relationships fail for infinite reasons) you've come up with this vaguely misogynistic theory that your *best* purported qualities are a turn off to women. Because women, per this theory:
1. Hate affection and physical contact
2. Hate to talk about feelings
3. Hate it when partners care about their happiness.
Either most women are stoic, frigid masochists who hate hugs....
or you are thinking about things in entirely the wrong way.
posted by moxiedoll at 10:30 PM on May 22, 2008 [7 favorites]
I think the whole idea of "macho" is a little silly. Personally, I've always had the best relationships with men who were just ... themselves. If you feel as if you need to be someone different to the people you are trying to attract, maybe it's more along the lines of "it's not you it's them" territory?
On preview, that doesn't really answer your question, of how to be more "manly." But perhaps the women you are attempting to be involved with are not really meeting *your* needs? Also, age seems like it may be a factor.
Just some thoughts.
posted by waitangi at 10:31 PM on May 22, 2008
On preview, that doesn't really answer your question, of how to be more "manly." But perhaps the women you are attempting to be involved with are not really meeting *your* needs? Also, age seems like it may be a factor.
Just some thoughts.
posted by waitangi at 10:31 PM on May 22, 2008
Affectionate: wonderful!
Needy and desperate: big turn-off!
The two are NOT synonyms.
posted by brujita at 10:31 PM on May 22, 2008 [3 favorites]
Needy and desperate: big turn-off!
The two are NOT synonyms.
posted by brujita at 10:31 PM on May 22, 2008 [3 favorites]
It sounds like you might need to develop interests outside of relationships. Just focus for a while on developing aspects of yourself that will result in you being happy, girlfriend or no girlfriend. If you get that going, in your next relationship, you just might seem less clingy.
Also, I think "macho" guys have just as many relationship problems as everyone else, so there's no point in emulating them for this purpose.
posted by ignignokt at 10:36 PM on May 22, 2008
Also, I think "macho" guys have just as many relationship problems as everyone else, so there's no point in emulating them for this purpose.
posted by ignignokt at 10:36 PM on May 22, 2008
Well, the big problem here is that you consider these to be the 3 big problems in your relationships - perhaps if we spoke to the other side we might hear something different. All I can say is that when I hear something along the lines of "my relationship failed because I'm just too caring and too communicative" I find that just as disingenuous as hearing someone who has been fired from their job say "they fired me because I was too good at my job."
There are a lot of superlatives in your list: you like a lot of physical contact, you talk a lot about feelings, you're overly concerned about your partner's happiness. You already know that you are laying it on waaaaay too thick in your relationships. You need to ask yourself why you feel the need to overcompensate. I can only say from my own experience that it becomes completely exhausting to deal with someone who does this - they require almost constant reassurance that yes, they are very cuddly, and yes, they care about me soooo much. It completely subverts something that should be positive and turns it into a lot of work.
No, I (as a woman - I don't want to speak for all women) don't need a macho lump that opens beers with his teeth and picks up barmaids when I'm not watching - but I also don't want a man who needs to analyze his every feeling out loud - It's already too much when I do it!
Just try to chill out a bit. Try this:
Be affectionate, be communicative, care about your partner's feelings. That sounds awesome! Take out the "overly" and the "a lots" and you might have more luck.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 11:49 PM on May 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
There are a lot of superlatives in your list: you like a lot of physical contact, you talk a lot about feelings, you're overly concerned about your partner's happiness. You already know that you are laying it on waaaaay too thick in your relationships. You need to ask yourself why you feel the need to overcompensate. I can only say from my own experience that it becomes completely exhausting to deal with someone who does this - they require almost constant reassurance that yes, they are very cuddly, and yes, they care about me soooo much. It completely subverts something that should be positive and turns it into a lot of work.
No, I (as a woman - I don't want to speak for all women) don't need a macho lump that opens beers with his teeth and picks up barmaids when I'm not watching - but I also don't want a man who needs to analyze his every feeling out loud - It's already too much when I do it!
Just try to chill out a bit. Try this:
Be affectionate, be communicative, care about your partner's feelings. That sounds awesome! Take out the "overly" and the "a lots" and you might have more luck.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 11:49 PM on May 22, 2008 [2 favorites]
My suggestion is that you concentrate on developing self-discipline, which is really the foundation for other "traditionally masculine" qualities like confidence, resilience, steadfastness, and so on. You don't have to lose your whole personality or fake an interest in anything you don't care about, just push yourself a little harder in the service of the things you do care about.
posted by tomcooke at 12:14 AM on May 23, 2008
posted by tomcooke at 12:14 AM on May 23, 2008
Too much thought & not enough action is probably getting in your way from being more macho. If you spent more time working on your car, shooting pool, hunting, going to strip joints & watching football, you wouldn't have time to fill your head with so much effeminate self-analysis gobbledygook.
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:28 AM on May 23, 2008
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:28 AM on May 23, 2008
i'm not sure if i agree with a lot of this advice.
i've said it before, i'll say it again, and i'm not the only person to ever say it:
if you are a man, never never never listen to women regarding relationship advice. what women say they want, and what actually makes them attracted to you/stick around, are two very different things. apologies and respect to the females in this board offering their obviously well-intentioned advice, but much of what i'm reading seems quite off the mark.
there's nothing wrong with trying to do a bit of self-improvement, and yes this list of things you describe about yourself are just the kinds of things that send most women running, no matter how some may protest otherwise. congratulations on figuring that much out on your own, you're on the right track already.
that said, i think maybe "macho" isn't neccesarily the best word for what you're looking for - less clingy, more self confident, and more self reliant would probably better describe the traits that would help you keep the women in your life around. a bit of advice on some of the problems you describe:
- take the lead on dates (not so much "would you like to see iron man tonight" as "let's go see :movie you're both likely to enjoy: tonight!")
- just generally make sure you consider your own needs as much as, if not more so than, your partner's - it's a bit counter-intuitive, but trust me, it's attractive, as long as you don't take it to the point of being a complete ass (putting your needs above hers doesn't mean you can't consider hers as well).
- blow a bit hot and cold with the physical contact thing (sometimes you initiate it, sometimes you avoid it)
- keep your emotional problems to yourself FOR THE MOST PART, then surprise her by showing your vulnerable side every once in a while (once she already knows and likes you)
and in general, don't rely on your girlfriend too much for your self esteem, or make her the all-encompassing center of your life - you need to internalize "i'm fine with or without this particular girl - if this relationship doesnt work out, i can find someone else. and if it takes a minute to find someone i really click with, it still doesn't detract from my overall awsomeness as a human being and all around cool dude." or something like that anyway!
posted by messiahwannabe at 1:07 AM on May 23, 2008 [9 favorites]
i've said it before, i'll say it again, and i'm not the only person to ever say it:
if you are a man, never never never listen to women regarding relationship advice. what women say they want, and what actually makes them attracted to you/stick around, are two very different things. apologies and respect to the females in this board offering their obviously well-intentioned advice, but much of what i'm reading seems quite off the mark.
there's nothing wrong with trying to do a bit of self-improvement, and yes this list of things you describe about yourself are just the kinds of things that send most women running, no matter how some may protest otherwise. congratulations on figuring that much out on your own, you're on the right track already.
that said, i think maybe "macho" isn't neccesarily the best word for what you're looking for - less clingy, more self confident, and more self reliant would probably better describe the traits that would help you keep the women in your life around. a bit of advice on some of the problems you describe:
- take the lead on dates (not so much "would you like to see iron man tonight" as "let's go see :movie you're both likely to enjoy: tonight!")
- just generally make sure you consider your own needs as much as, if not more so than, your partner's - it's a bit counter-intuitive, but trust me, it's attractive, as long as you don't take it to the point of being a complete ass (putting your needs above hers doesn't mean you can't consider hers as well).
- blow a bit hot and cold with the physical contact thing (sometimes you initiate it, sometimes you avoid it)
- keep your emotional problems to yourself FOR THE MOST PART, then surprise her by showing your vulnerable side every once in a while (once she already knows and likes you)
and in general, don't rely on your girlfriend too much for your self esteem, or make her the all-encompassing center of your life - you need to internalize "i'm fine with or without this particular girl - if this relationship doesnt work out, i can find someone else. and if it takes a minute to find someone i really click with, it still doesn't detract from my overall awsomeness as a human being and all around cool dude." or something like that anyway!
posted by messiahwannabe at 1:07 AM on May 23, 2008 [9 favorites]
There's a lot of advice about posted above maintaining the qualities you're complaining about and seeking out different women. That's all well and good, but I'm going to assume you actually do want to change. I agree with the other posters that you shouldn't lose yourself to this process, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to leather up a little bit. So why not try acting the part a little while and see if you don't start feeling the way you want to feel?
I recommend getting a heavy bag and pounding the shit out of it every couple nights. Get a set of dumbbells and lift, lift, lift. Do lots of pushups. There's no such thing as a "macho pill" or "macho technique" but upping your testosterone level with some exercise and controlled aggression is almost as good. When your blood's fired up with the hormones exertion releases, your brain won't be able to hold back the neurotransmitters that chase away sour moods. Less feeling down, less depression to analyze. Make depression chemically impossible for yourself. This really works.
Grow a beard. Go rent Die Hard 1 & 3. Eat some barbeque with your Dad and ask him about his car. Throw out all your mewling, whining emo records and listen to some shamelessly chauvinistic music. Rent True Grit and any spy movie when you take the Die Hards back. Read Beowulf.
Do you have any guy friends? You need some. You need a crew of dirtbags you can drink and cuss and chase skirts with. Get comfortable enough with them that you're busting each other's balls constantly - this is how guys keep each other in check, and you ought to embrace this time-tested method.
Get your Adventuring on somehow. Learn how to boast, then challenge yourself to some Epic Deeds so you'll have something to boast about. Quit making every dame you hook up with into the Empress of your life. They're just girls and there's plenty of them - and almost all of them dig fellas who've got their own thing going on, fellas who were on fire about their lives before they got together with a girl.
posted by EatTheWeek at 1:17 AM on May 23, 2008 [9 favorites]
I recommend getting a heavy bag and pounding the shit out of it every couple nights. Get a set of dumbbells and lift, lift, lift. Do lots of pushups. There's no such thing as a "macho pill" or "macho technique" but upping your testosterone level with some exercise and controlled aggression is almost as good. When your blood's fired up with the hormones exertion releases, your brain won't be able to hold back the neurotransmitters that chase away sour moods. Less feeling down, less depression to analyze. Make depression chemically impossible for yourself. This really works.
Grow a beard. Go rent Die Hard 1 & 3. Eat some barbeque with your Dad and ask him about his car. Throw out all your mewling, whining emo records and listen to some shamelessly chauvinistic music. Rent True Grit and any spy movie when you take the Die Hards back. Read Beowulf.
Do you have any guy friends? You need some. You need a crew of dirtbags you can drink and cuss and chase skirts with. Get comfortable enough with them that you're busting each other's balls constantly - this is how guys keep each other in check, and you ought to embrace this time-tested method.
Get your Adventuring on somehow. Learn how to boast, then challenge yourself to some Epic Deeds so you'll have something to boast about. Quit making every dame you hook up with into the Empress of your life. They're just girls and there's plenty of them - and almost all of them dig fellas who've got their own thing going on, fellas who were on fire about their lives before they got together with a girl.
posted by EatTheWeek at 1:17 AM on May 23, 2008 [9 favorites]
Please don't start acting macho. To echo someone above, if you're clingy stop being clingy. It doesn't mean lose all those qualities you listed.
posted by Nattie at 2:56 AM on May 23, 2008
posted by Nattie at 2:56 AM on May 23, 2008
I had a boyfriend like you. He was super sweet, caring, way too nice to me. Also, he was obsessed with becoming more macho. He was so driven by this that he joined the military against all advice and is now, as far as I can tell, profoundly miserable.
Be who you are. Don't try to make yourself into someone else for your ex-girlfriends.
But, yeah, listen to the people who have told you to think honestly about whether or not you're really identifying what went wrong. It sounds like you could be putting a positive spin on things or ignoring what you don't want to hear. Not a lot of guys get dumped for just being too nice... but a lot of guys tell themselves that that's what happened.
posted by prefpara at 5:15 AM on May 23, 2008
Be who you are. Don't try to make yourself into someone else for your ex-girlfriends.
But, yeah, listen to the people who have told you to think honestly about whether or not you're really identifying what went wrong. It sounds like you could be putting a positive spin on things or ignoring what you don't want to hear. Not a lot of guys get dumped for just being too nice... but a lot of guys tell themselves that that's what happened.
posted by prefpara at 5:15 AM on May 23, 2008
Maybe step back and let them be affectionate to *me* on occasion instead of always reaching out to pat or hug them. The intention there is good, and I know that I can be totally self-sufficient and all, but I fear that over-affection may come off as clingy or something.
If you're always coming on strong, you're not giving her a chance to reciprocate and initiate things. This doesn't mean that you need to be macho or pretend to be distant, it just means you need to step back and let her contribute too. Relationships are a balance between two people. If you keep that balance, then your 3 things will not be the kiss of death.
Women like different things. (Women like me don't like macho men!) We come with different quirks and histories and baggage, and all of those things will affect how individual women interact with you. You aren't going to be able to change your personality so that all women magically like you, and that's a good thing. I mean, can you imagine if all those ridiculous seduction courses for men worked and there was suddenly only One Personality For Men? What would be the point of dating? Variety is good.
posted by heatherann at 6:44 AM on May 23, 2008
If you're always coming on strong, you're not giving her a chance to reciprocate and initiate things. This doesn't mean that you need to be macho or pretend to be distant, it just means you need to step back and let her contribute too. Relationships are a balance between two people. If you keep that balance, then your 3 things will not be the kiss of death.
Women like different things. (Women like me don't like macho men!) We come with different quirks and histories and baggage, and all of those things will affect how individual women interact with you. You aren't going to be able to change your personality so that all women magically like you, and that's a good thing. I mean, can you imagine if all those ridiculous seduction courses for men worked and there was suddenly only One Personality For Men? What would be the point of dating? Variety is good.
posted by heatherann at 6:44 AM on May 23, 2008
liquorice - I think a key issue here is the difference between "women who are comfortable with and like themselves" versus "women who haven't figured themselves out yet".
The older women I know tend to be more likely to know (and say) what they want, and actually mean it. Women still in the dating pool (by default, a large number of them being younger) are often times seemingly incapable of saying anything that even lives in the same hemisphere of what they will respond to. I say "will respond to" because I think many of these people don't necessarily "want" a macho, emotionally distant man in the conscious sense, but they certainly respond the most strongly to them.
I know plenty of men that act the same way, though they seem a bit less duped by their own brains sometimes. You could take out "woman" in the above text and replace it with "man" and, well, it wouldn't be far off either.
posted by mbatch at 6:51 AM on May 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
The older women I know tend to be more likely to know (and say) what they want, and actually mean it. Women still in the dating pool (by default, a large number of them being younger) are often times seemingly incapable of saying anything that even lives in the same hemisphere of what they will respond to. I say "will respond to" because I think many of these people don't necessarily "want" a macho, emotionally distant man in the conscious sense, but they certainly respond the most strongly to them.
I know plenty of men that act the same way, though they seem a bit less duped by their own brains sometimes. You could take out "woman" in the above text and replace it with "man" and, well, it wouldn't be far off either.
posted by mbatch at 6:51 AM on May 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
"Macho" is one of those words that means really different things to different people. It can be a positive characteristic, as a way to describe a "traditional" sort of masculinity, or a deeply negative description for a violent and controlling asshole. My reading of your question is that you want to be more "masculine" in a fairly traditional way than you are now -- more Clint Eastwood and less sensitive guy. Or to put it a different way, in a prison sex fantasy, you want to unambiguously be the husband and not the wife.
That generally would mean being more self-controlled, more self-contained, less emotionally-expressive. It also implies a whole host of secondary characteristics, from having a certain kind of job, to how your homosocial interactions are structured, to how you dress.
And that's sort of my point here, that this isn't a free lunch kind of thing. There are consequences and responsibilities to these choices -- if you want to take on a more "macho" role in your relationships, that means taking on that role. It's not another way to be clingy and get what you want in a passive aggressive fashion. But at the same time, to be honest, being exuberantly masculine is very freeing -- it lets you be as caring and cuddly as you want to be, because no one would dream of calling you a pussy for it. There is great freedom in fully owning who you are, and being fully yourself (rather than playing a role or worrying about other people's reactions) in every moment.
posted by Forktine at 6:58 AM on May 23, 2008
That generally would mean being more self-controlled, more self-contained, less emotionally-expressive. It also implies a whole host of secondary characteristics, from having a certain kind of job, to how your homosocial interactions are structured, to how you dress.
And that's sort of my point here, that this isn't a free lunch kind of thing. There are consequences and responsibilities to these choices -- if you want to take on a more "macho" role in your relationships, that means taking on that role. It's not another way to be clingy and get what you want in a passive aggressive fashion. But at the same time, to be honest, being exuberantly masculine is very freeing -- it lets you be as caring and cuddly as you want to be, because no one would dream of calling you a pussy for it. There is great freedom in fully owning who you are, and being fully yourself (rather than playing a role or worrying about other people's reactions) in every moment.
posted by Forktine at 6:58 AM on May 23, 2008
liquorice - yes, you should be more compassionate & empathetic towards younger women, who mightn't yet have their brains sorted out.
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:00 AM on May 23, 2008
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:00 AM on May 23, 2008
I call bullshit on this question... There is absolutely no way (if you actually do possess these qualities) that these are the qualities that are causing you problems in relationships.
Huh. The same qualities cause me similar problems when I was younger. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I only thought those qualities caused problems. But I could have asked this question back then, and I wouldn't have been bullshitting. I would have been stating a serious (though maybe wrongheaded) belief -- based on personal experience and what female friends told me.
if you are a man, never never never listen to women regarding relationship advice. what women say they want, and what actually makes them attracted to you/stick around, are two very different things.
I think it depends on age. What age women are you talking about? Also, anon, how old are you?
When I was in my teens through mid twenties, I couldn't get a girlfriend to save my life. I had tons of female friends -- just no girlfriends. I was the nice guy who girls wanted as friend. I lost count of how many times they would complain to me, "Why can't my boyfriend be more like you?"
Guess what? Women mature, just like men do. As they age, they tend to be attracted more to guys who are honest, caring and vulnerable. Starting around the late 20s, many women have had their fill Butch, Bruce and Chet. Those guys were exciting, but in the end they turned out to be shallow assholes.
Granted, my friends are mostly lefty arty sorts of people, but I can't think of any women I know, who are in their 30s or 40s, who are looking for Mr. Macho.
posted by grumblebee at 7:08 AM on May 23, 2008
Huh. The same qualities cause me similar problems when I was younger. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I only thought those qualities caused problems. But I could have asked this question back then, and I wouldn't have been bullshitting. I would have been stating a serious (though maybe wrongheaded) belief -- based on personal experience and what female friends told me.
if you are a man, never never never listen to women regarding relationship advice. what women say they want, and what actually makes them attracted to you/stick around, are two very different things.
I think it depends on age. What age women are you talking about? Also, anon, how old are you?
When I was in my teens through mid twenties, I couldn't get a girlfriend to save my life. I had tons of female friends -- just no girlfriends. I was the nice guy who girls wanted as friend. I lost count of how many times they would complain to me, "Why can't my boyfriend be more like you?"
Guess what? Women mature, just like men do. As they age, they tend to be attracted more to guys who are honest, caring and vulnerable. Starting around the late 20s, many women have had their fill Butch, Bruce and Chet. Those guys were exciting, but in the end they turned out to be shallow assholes.
Granted, my friends are mostly lefty arty sorts of people, but I can't think of any women I know, who are in their 30s or 40s, who are looking for Mr. Macho.
posted by grumblebee at 7:08 AM on May 23, 2008
#3 strikes me as indicative of a kind of codependence, which is a problem.
posted by idb at 7:10 AM on May 23, 2008
posted by idb at 7:10 AM on May 23, 2008
Speaking as a 20 something woman. There is nothing more hilarious than forced macho-ism. I find macho men pretty ridiculous in general, with come-on lines that make me roll my eyes and think "please."
Are you funny? We like funny. Funny trumps macho anytime.
Sounds like you might be lacking confidence, which is completely different from lacking machismo.
posted by Flying Squirrel at 7:32 AM on May 23, 2008
Are you funny? We like funny. Funny trumps macho anytime.
Sounds like you might be lacking confidence, which is completely different from lacking machismo.
posted by Flying Squirrel at 7:32 AM on May 23, 2008
Get fit, if you aren't already. Develop your own interests or actively pursue the ones you already have. Don't whine or complain if she wants to go out with her girlfriends every now and again. Be a gentleman. Be pro-active in planning dates. Don't cry unless someone has died. Grab her and kiss her then let her go. Don't take things too seriously unless it really is warranted (see previous advice on crying). Don't pout.
posted by Evangeline at 8:01 AM on May 23, 2008
posted by Evangeline at 8:01 AM on May 23, 2008
I couldn't read all the answers here so forgive me if I repeating things. The answers that I did read pointed to a self-esteem or a confidence issue and I think that's key. There's no problem with being male and having emotions, indeed I've seen being emotionally retarded as a handicap for the men older generation of men in both mine and my wife's families. You need to work on being confident within yourself, and one way of doing that is by taking care of yourself. If you don't do it yet, then start working out. Get in shape and eat healthily, it sounds silly but it will make you feel more confident. If you want to go further take up martial arts.
Don't worry about being affectionate or having feelings. Sure, they're not macho in the meathead sense of the term, but they're who you are and they're honest and I think that the vast majority of women that you would want a relationship with would appreciate this. I say all this as someone that most people (including my wife) would describe as a man's man who very definitely has emotions.
If you really don't want to take any flak for this from your male friends then just make sure that you only talk about boobs, beer and blowing shit up when you're on a guys night out. That's always worked for me!
posted by ob at 8:22 AM on May 23, 2008
Don't worry about being affectionate or having feelings. Sure, they're not macho in the meathead sense of the term, but they're who you are and they're honest and I think that the vast majority of women that you would want a relationship with would appreciate this. I say all this as someone that most people (including my wife) would describe as a man's man who very definitely has emotions.
If you really don't want to take any flak for this from your male friends then just make sure that you only talk about boobs, beer and blowing shit up when you're on a guys night out. That's always worked for me!
posted by ob at 8:22 AM on May 23, 2008
Also, are you in your early twenties by any chance? A lot of guys that I know, and I include myself, went through something similar at that age. I think it boils down to a lack of confidence. There's a huge difference between having self-respect, standing up for yourself and not taking shit from people and being an obnoxious macho thug.
posted by ob at 8:26 AM on May 23, 2008
posted by ob at 8:26 AM on May 23, 2008
my girlfriend would probably say everything on your list is good. all you have to do now is know what you want out of life, and go get it.
that doesn't mean being a macho asshole, it means being motivated to work toward your goals and confident enough to know you deserve success. it also means not subjugating your grand schemes to the trifling whims of your mate. the definition of success is very elastic here. you don't have to conquer the world. just do what you want and be independent.
as a man, your role as protector and provider has changed in the modern world, but you still have to give some indication that you are capable of both. you won't have to kill a wildebeest or anything, but you will have to be fearless and strong in ways that make sense in your world. many men prove themselves through sport or in business. you have your own realm.
it's unlikely that any woman will respect you if you seem to have no purpose in life but to rub her feet. however, she'd love it if you were to fearlessly achieve your potential and and take the time to rub her feet.
posted by klanawa at 9:07 AM on May 23, 2008
that doesn't mean being a macho asshole, it means being motivated to work toward your goals and confident enough to know you deserve success. it also means not subjugating your grand schemes to the trifling whims of your mate. the definition of success is very elastic here. you don't have to conquer the world. just do what you want and be independent.
as a man, your role as protector and provider has changed in the modern world, but you still have to give some indication that you are capable of both. you won't have to kill a wildebeest or anything, but you will have to be fearless and strong in ways that make sense in your world. many men prove themselves through sport or in business. you have your own realm.
it's unlikely that any woman will respect you if you seem to have no purpose in life but to rub her feet. however, she'd love it if you were to fearlessly achieve your potential and and take the time to rub her feet.
posted by klanawa at 9:07 AM on May 23, 2008
I agree with moxiedoll - the things you listed aren't the problem, or you are picking the totally wrong kinds of women (from some other planet, presumably). My guess is that you act insecure about your masculinity in front of a lover. You can be the most sensitive guy alive, but the lack of confidence is a HUGE turnoff. For example, the guy who won't use my shampoo because he's afraid it will make him smell girly. WTF, like people are going to then mistake him for a girl? Or the guy who acts tougher than he is because he's afraid people will think he's gay.
Confidence also breeds decisiveness, which is probably strongly linked to #3 on your list. I imagine you're the type of guy who, when asked what he wants to do that evening, says, "Whatever you want to do, honey," and then forces her to always come up with something/initiate. You don't have to be an asshole to take charge of a situation. Just plan a date. "I'm taking you to dinner tonight" is not going to piss off a woman. Same thing in bed. Just act, and obviously stop if she's resistant/says no. If she's the one who likes to take charge in bed, that will become abundantly obvious, and I'm thinking you're already agreeable to that.
posted by desjardins at 9:48 AM on May 23, 2008
Confidence also breeds decisiveness, which is probably strongly linked to #3 on your list. I imagine you're the type of guy who, when asked what he wants to do that evening, says, "Whatever you want to do, honey," and then forces her to always come up with something/initiate. You don't have to be an asshole to take charge of a situation. Just plan a date. "I'm taking you to dinner tonight" is not going to piss off a woman. Same thing in bed. Just act, and obviously stop if she's resistant/says no. If she's the one who likes to take charge in bed, that will become abundantly obvious, and I'm thinking you're already agreeable to that.
posted by desjardins at 9:48 AM on May 23, 2008
Granted, my friends are mostly lefty arty sorts of people, but I can't think of any women I know, who are in their 30s or 40s, who are looking for Mr. Macho.
This is very true (woman in my 40s here). "Macho" is just as exhausting as "sensitive." Why the quotes? Because each of these is a self-title that actually means jack squat about who you really are. One thing that a lot of women do like is a man that's not afraid to show all of his qualities. There's nothing sexier than a guy who can fix your car...and cook you dinner, for example. Someone who will slap your ass, but also ask you about your day (and listen).
Everyone has sides to them that don't fit under a tidy heading. Those are what make you yourself and interesting to other people. A flaw isn't necessarily a big thing if it's counterbalanced with a positive - it becomes a spice, rather than a problem. Start being yourself and stop worrying about what other people think, not only will other people like you better, but so will you.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 10:16 AM on May 23, 2008
This is very true (woman in my 40s here). "Macho" is just as exhausting as "sensitive." Why the quotes? Because each of these is a self-title that actually means jack squat about who you really are. One thing that a lot of women do like is a man that's not afraid to show all of his qualities. There's nothing sexier than a guy who can fix your car...and cook you dinner, for example. Someone who will slap your ass, but also ask you about your day (and listen).
Everyone has sides to them that don't fit under a tidy heading. Those are what make you yourself and interesting to other people. A flaw isn't necessarily a big thing if it's counterbalanced with a positive - it becomes a spice, rather than a problem. Start being yourself and stop worrying about what other people think, not only will other people like you better, but so will you.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 10:16 AM on May 23, 2008
i probably shouldn't respond, but
"Wow, I didn't realise you could read all women's brains! You're like a god."
i'm not sure where you got the brain-reader thing, i don't think i said anything even remotely along the lines of "i can read women's minds". i'm just comparing what i've heard in the way of advice, from a wide range of women, to what has actually helped me keep women i like in my life around instead of having them dump me for someone more macho. and ruthlessly changing the very behaviour mentioned by anonymous got me from being blatantly dumped by my first 4-5 girlfriends to never being broken up with ever again! and it was pretty clear to me that it was these very things that made the most difference. hearing the chorus of voices saying "no, no, we love guys who do this" very much brought to mind all the misguided advice i've gotten over the years from female friends, relatives, and girlfriends.
please note that i'm not telling him to never be physically affectionate, discuss his feelings, or take his partners feelings into consideration, just to tone it down a bit. i'm guessing your wonderful boyfriend probably does these things in more moderation that anonymous has been.
posted by messiahwannabe at 10:21 AM on May 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
"Wow, I didn't realise you could read all women's brains! You're like a god."
i'm not sure where you got the brain-reader thing, i don't think i said anything even remotely along the lines of "i can read women's minds". i'm just comparing what i've heard in the way of advice, from a wide range of women, to what has actually helped me keep women i like in my life around instead of having them dump me for someone more macho. and ruthlessly changing the very behaviour mentioned by anonymous got me from being blatantly dumped by my first 4-5 girlfriends to never being broken up with ever again! and it was pretty clear to me that it was these very things that made the most difference. hearing the chorus of voices saying "no, no, we love guys who do this" very much brought to mind all the misguided advice i've gotten over the years from female friends, relatives, and girlfriends.
please note that i'm not telling him to never be physically affectionate, discuss his feelings, or take his partners feelings into consideration, just to tone it down a bit. i'm guessing your wonderful boyfriend probably does these things in more moderation that anonymous has been.
posted by messiahwannabe at 10:21 AM on May 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
Messiahwannabe:
The snarky response you got was because, while you had some good advice (the bits of your advice which were actually what most of the rest of the thread was saying, but phrased in a different way), it was buried in some blatantly misogynistic manipulative bullshit.
Your initial statement and phrases like "- keep your emotional problems to yourself FOR THE MOST PART, then surprise her by showing your vulnerable side every once in a while (once she already knows and likes you)" come across as making you sound like an awful game playing asshole. Your advice that the OP not rely on his girlfriends for his self-esteem was great, as was "[be] less clingy, more self confident, and more self reliant would probably better describe the traits that would help you keep the women in your life around," but it was also a restatement of some of the advice you initially disparaged.
posted by Caduceus at 1:42 PM on May 23, 2008
The snarky response you got was because, while you had some good advice (the bits of your advice which were actually what most of the rest of the thread was saying, but phrased in a different way), it was buried in some blatantly misogynistic manipulative bullshit.
Your initial statement and phrases like "- keep your emotional problems to yourself FOR THE MOST PART, then surprise her by showing your vulnerable side every once in a while (once she already knows and likes you)" come across as making you sound like an awful game playing asshole. Your advice that the OP not rely on his girlfriends for his self-esteem was great, as was "[be] less clingy, more self confident, and more self reliant would probably better describe the traits that would help you keep the women in your life around," but it was also a restatement of some of the advice you initially disparaged.
posted by Caduceus at 1:42 PM on May 23, 2008
i get what your saying, and frankly i didn't really expect what i said to go over well with everyone reading this list, so the hostile response didn't exactly surprse me. but
a) while there are lots of people giving similar advice to me, there are also many people saying "don't change, women love guys like this", several of whom prefaced their statement with a reference to their gender (the implication being that they therefore knew firsthand what anonymous needed to do) on top of that, some of these responses were rather emphatic as well - the word bullshit was used more than once in regards to the question itself. this may have unduly influenced the rather emphatic nature of my own response.
b) however it sounds, i stand by my statement that women have consistantly given bad relationship advice to me and my friends over the years. i realize that i'm basically saying something which admittedly isn't very pc out loud in "mixed company". but in light of some of the other responses, i feel like it needed to be said.
c) if i sound like i'm advocating playing games with women, it's because i am - i've honestly found that doing so is both affective and appreciated (subconciously anyway), and i base this on years of good experiences in several long term relationships (i'm pushing 40) obviously game playing, like pretty much everything else in life, needs to be done in moderation - no one wants to spend their life acting. but we all consciously change our behavior to suit social requirements constantly, and i dont see anything wrong with suggesting to anonymous that he does so - it's the kind of advice he's asking for, isn't it?
while i'm not overly shocked someone felt the need to refute my contribution to the discussion, i rarely see people in here being as snarky (good word btw) as liquorice was to me. this subject obviously brings out peoples emotions, myself included i guess - i probably could have phrased my statement in a more pc manner, and maybe i should have, but it was honest advice.
posted by messiahwannabe at 6:48 PM on May 23, 2008
a) while there are lots of people giving similar advice to me, there are also many people saying "don't change, women love guys like this", several of whom prefaced their statement with a reference to their gender (the implication being that they therefore knew firsthand what anonymous needed to do) on top of that, some of these responses were rather emphatic as well - the word bullshit was used more than once in regards to the question itself. this may have unduly influenced the rather emphatic nature of my own response.
b) however it sounds, i stand by my statement that women have consistantly given bad relationship advice to me and my friends over the years. i realize that i'm basically saying something which admittedly isn't very pc out loud in "mixed company". but in light of some of the other responses, i feel like it needed to be said.
c) if i sound like i'm advocating playing games with women, it's because i am - i've honestly found that doing so is both affective and appreciated (subconciously anyway), and i base this on years of good experiences in several long term relationships (i'm pushing 40) obviously game playing, like pretty much everything else in life, needs to be done in moderation - no one wants to spend their life acting. but we all consciously change our behavior to suit social requirements constantly, and i dont see anything wrong with suggesting to anonymous that he does so - it's the kind of advice he's asking for, isn't it?
while i'm not overly shocked someone felt the need to refute my contribution to the discussion, i rarely see people in here being as snarky (good word btw) as liquorice was to me. this subject obviously brings out peoples emotions, myself included i guess - i probably could have phrased my statement in a more pc manner, and maybe i should have, but it was honest advice.
posted by messiahwannabe at 6:48 PM on May 23, 2008
Mod note: please take side discussion here to metatalk or email, thank you.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:00 AM on May 24, 2008
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:00 AM on May 24, 2008
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I fear that over-affection may come off as clingy or something.
That strikes me as a different problem. This may not be a matter of "I need to be more macho," but rather a case of "I...may be trying too hard." And women can do that just as much as men.
That's not a "macho" thing, that's more of a confidence thing, I think. Trying to be more like a certain stereotype could just tie you up in knots; it may be more that you need to be more comfortable in your own skin, so others are comfortable around you.
There's a line from the movie SAY ANYTHING: "Don't be a guy. The world is full of guys already. Be a man instead."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:52 PM on May 22, 2008 [3 favorites]