Don't make me gravel.
May 21, 2008 7:54 AM Subscribe
Other people have decided to do some work on our road and bill us later. We were not consulted at all. What can we expect?
Four households, one road/driveway. The newest people to move in have decided that the whole road needs new gravel. We've come to find out through other neighbors that they are planning go ahead with this project and bill the other households for a "share" of the cost. We have not asked for this; we were not consulted; we have not agreed to any maintenance. How should we handle this when the bill comes due?
Compounding this is that the people who have decided to do this are close (*very* close) relatives of the local magistrate. It would seem reasonable that, if it were me deciding to do this and billing others, that I would have checked with someone in authority to see if I could get away with it. It also seems that, if ours and the other households do end up before the magistrate with this issue, that it could cost us just as much in legal fees as it would to just go ahead and pay the bill.
Four households, one road/driveway. The newest people to move in have decided that the whole road needs new gravel. We've come to find out through other neighbors that they are planning go ahead with this project and bill the other households for a "share" of the cost. We have not asked for this; we were not consulted; we have not agreed to any maintenance. How should we handle this when the bill comes due?
Compounding this is that the people who have decided to do this are close (*very* close) relatives of the local magistrate. It would seem reasonable that, if it were me deciding to do this and billing others, that I would have checked with someone in authority to see if I could get away with it. It also seems that, if ours and the other households do end up before the magistrate with this issue, that it could cost us just as much in legal fees as it would to just go ahead and pay the bill.
Unless there is some kind of formal community association agreement or similar covenant on your deed, I doubt that they can compel you to pay. I would think your position would be stronger if you went on record before they did the work by telling them that you don't think the work is needed or that you don't want to spend the money or whatever.
You also have to consider the question of how it will affect your relationship with them and if being on good terms with your neighbors has a value to you that might make paying a better decision.
posted by Lame_username at 8:05 AM on May 21, 2008
You also have to consider the question of how it will affect your relationship with them and if being on good terms with your neighbors has a value to you that might make paying a better decision.
posted by Lame_username at 8:05 AM on May 21, 2008
Best answer: yes, you and your other two neighbors need to have a friendly chat as soon as possible with the fourth neighbor. Keep it friendly and make sure everyone's positions are understood. After all, you are hearing about the neighbor's intentions second hand, things could have been mixed up. It is imperative that you talk to the source (with your two others neighbors as backup) in a friendly way to understand what they intend to do and your position on the matter.
posted by mmascolino at 8:06 AM on May 21, 2008
posted by mmascolino at 8:06 AM on May 21, 2008
How should we handle this when the bill comes due?
You should handle this before they spend the money. Why don't you invite your neighbors over for a nice cup of coffee and a chat.
posted by grouse at 8:08 AM on May 21, 2008
You should handle this before they spend the money. Why don't you invite your neighbors over for a nice cup of coffee and a chat.
posted by grouse at 8:08 AM on May 21, 2008
Nthing talking to them. It's entirely possible there's a road-maintenance agreement that goes along with owning a house on that road, something you signed when you bought in and have forgotten about. But AFAIK such agreements usually require a formal process (like, calling a meeting to propose the road work); they don't allow one owner to just arbitrarily obligate other owners to pay for stuff.
If they are trying to pull a fast one they're probably depending on it being a fait accompli. People can be real assholes in this kind of situation. Talk to them before they've spent any money, so that they have less of a leg to stand on when they argue with you. Check in with other neighbors too: were any of them consulted?
On the third hand, you would benefit from this road work: even if you don't think the road needs gravel yet, graveling it now will put off the day when it does need work. Unless this guy is just doing it to get a kickback from his friend in the gravel business, it might make sense to just accept it and put it behind you.
posted by hattifattener at 8:33 AM on May 21, 2008
If they are trying to pull a fast one they're probably depending on it being a fait accompli. People can be real assholes in this kind of situation. Talk to them before they've spent any money, so that they have less of a leg to stand on when they argue with you. Check in with other neighbors too: were any of them consulted?
On the third hand, you would benefit from this road work: even if you don't think the road needs gravel yet, graveling it now will put off the day when it does need work. Unless this guy is just doing it to get a kickback from his friend in the gravel business, it might make sense to just accept it and put it behind you.
posted by hattifattener at 8:33 AM on May 21, 2008
He with be$t lawyer wins.
But in this case even that wouldn't help you...
Hmm. I imagine that the laws concerning a shared fence would give you something to go by. Where I am if you just go ahead and hand out bills afterwards... well then that's just your problem.
You know what? I'd go to the Magistrate myself and say "Look, your relatives here are suggesting that because of who you are - that we have no option but to comply. Myself and the other neighbors are shocked and are preparing ourselves for the legal action this is going to create. I just wanted to come and speak to you man to man to be certain that this is the case as none of us have any desire to drag your name through the mud unnecessarily, Sir."
Hopefully they don't want to call your bluff but that'll at least give you an idea of where you stand. The Magistrate might be an ass or he might have no idea what they're doing!?? But I dare say there are ombudsmen and so forth that you can ask to observe this situation especially if the law states the outcome in a very clear-cut way. Everybody likes to help out family but not if they're idiots that make it so it's perfectly clear exactly what you have done... Abuse of power is just disgraceful! Know anybody that works for the paper? :)
posted by mu~ha~ha~ha~har at 8:46 AM on May 21, 2008
But in this case even that wouldn't help you...
Hmm. I imagine that the laws concerning a shared fence would give you something to go by. Where I am if you just go ahead and hand out bills afterwards... well then that's just your problem.
You know what? I'd go to the Magistrate myself and say "Look, your relatives here are suggesting that because of who you are - that we have no option but to comply. Myself and the other neighbors are shocked and are preparing ourselves for the legal action this is going to create. I just wanted to come and speak to you man to man to be certain that this is the case as none of us have any desire to drag your name through the mud unnecessarily, Sir."
Hopefully they don't want to call your bluff but that'll at least give you an idea of where you stand. The Magistrate might be an ass or he might have no idea what they're doing!?? But I dare say there are ombudsmen and so forth that you can ask to observe this situation especially if the law states the outcome in a very clear-cut way. Everybody likes to help out family but not if they're idiots that make it so it's perfectly clear exactly what you have done... Abuse of power is just disgraceful! Know anybody that works for the paper? :)
posted by mu~ha~ha~ha~har at 8:46 AM on May 21, 2008
Why don't you invite your neighbors over for a nice cup of coffee and a chat.
Yes, ALL your neighbors. Everyone will feel less intimidated-- except the new folks. And that way there will be witnesses for whatever is said. But I agree you should keep it friendly, and look at it as an opportunity to entertain.
posted by [NOT HERMITOSIS-IST] at 8:53 AM on May 21, 2008
Yes, ALL your neighbors. Everyone will feel less intimidated-- except the new folks. And that way there will be witnesses for whatever is said. But I agree you should keep it friendly, and look at it as an opportunity to entertain.
posted by [NOT HERMITOSIS-IST] at 8:53 AM on May 21, 2008
Shoe was on the other foot in our case.
Two households, one very long, very crappy driveway, we were the newbies who wanted the huge potholes filled, the ridges flattened and gravel prettily strewn.
The charming, flat broke (this was fairly obvious) guy sharing the driveway agreed very happily to pay his share. He even - very obligingly - signed a formal agreement.
We had the work done, paid for it, benefited from it - as indeed did the other guy - but he never managed the payment part! As he has said, with wonder, many times since: "man, that's a lot of money!"
We didn't want to start legal issues with him, there seemed no point hassling him for the money he couldn't obviously spare and we did understand that - in the end - we had rather forced the improvement on him. On that basis we sucked up the cost.
And - even today - I've smiled and waved at our permanently broke neighbor as he drove his very shitty car down the driveway!
posted by Jody Tresidder at 8:57 AM on May 21, 2008 [2 favorites]
Two households, one very long, very crappy driveway, we were the newbies who wanted the huge potholes filled, the ridges flattened and gravel prettily strewn.
The charming, flat broke (this was fairly obvious) guy sharing the driveway agreed very happily to pay his share. He even - very obligingly - signed a formal agreement.
We had the work done, paid for it, benefited from it - as indeed did the other guy - but he never managed the payment part! As he has said, with wonder, many times since: "man, that's a lot of money!"
We didn't want to start legal issues with him, there seemed no point hassling him for the money he couldn't obviously spare and we did understand that - in the end - we had rather forced the improvement on him. On that basis we sucked up the cost.
And - even today - I've smiled and waved at our permanently broke neighbor as he drove his very shitty car down the driveway!
posted by Jody Tresidder at 8:57 AM on May 21, 2008 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: OP here. Thanks for the responses so far.
There is no formal agreement regarding work on this road. The way our house is situated, we actually use (relatively) little of the road. I, along with the one neighbor that we do have contact with, plow/snowblow our portions in the winter, which would amount to the first 1000' or so from the main road. It's also used by another party, as access to his barn and cattle, with heavy equipment from time to time. They don't live on the road. I do not know if they've been contacted about paying a "share" or not.
We have no contact with these people. They live pretty far back the road. We just know who they are. I suppose this would be a good opportunity to change that, but we keep pretty much to ourselves. Were it not for a casual drop in conversation between neighbor's wives, I would still know nothing.
This is a large expense, if they're going to do it right. No one is debating the usefulness of this work.
@mu~ha~ha~ha~har: There has not been any actual intimidation based on who they're related to. What abuse of power might be there is imagined, by me. Just to clear that up.
And there's no way we could pay a share, equal or relative.
posted by eafarris at 9:21 AM on May 21, 2008
There is no formal agreement regarding work on this road. The way our house is situated, we actually use (relatively) little of the road. I, along with the one neighbor that we do have contact with, plow/snowblow our portions in the winter, which would amount to the first 1000' or so from the main road. It's also used by another party, as access to his barn and cattle, with heavy equipment from time to time. They don't live on the road. I do not know if they've been contacted about paying a "share" or not.
We have no contact with these people. They live pretty far back the road. We just know who they are. I suppose this would be a good opportunity to change that, but we keep pretty much to ourselves. Were it not for a casual drop in conversation between neighbor's wives, I would still know nothing.
This is a large expense, if they're going to do it right. No one is debating the usefulness of this work.
@mu~ha~ha~ha~har: There has not been any actual intimidation based on who they're related to. What abuse of power might be there is imagined, by me. Just to clear that up.
And there's no way we could pay a share, equal or relative.
posted by eafarris at 9:21 AM on May 21, 2008
You don't specify what state you're located in (assuming U.S.), so here's a general answer:
Determine exactly what type of legal access you have to your property and/or the road.
That will get you going down the right road (pun intended) to figuring out what your rights and responsibilities are. If you have an access easement, it may set forth the maintenance responsibilities. If there is no written easement, you may have a prescriptive easement or an easement by necessity in order to gain access to the closest public street.
Once you know what formal, written easements exist or do not exist, then you will be a long way toward determining the scope of your access rights and whether you are bound to share in any costs, maintenance obligations, etc...
If no formal recorded easement exists, then the better part of caution and for the future is to get one recorded. In the meantime, you'll have to figure out whether any prescriptive easement exists. Yes, this will involve an attorney most likely. But remember - the reason you're seeing an attorney now will probably be because someone didn't see an attorney when the original street/driveway sharing arrangement first began or no one checked when the property was purchased to ferret out these issues. It's a lot cheaper to prevent a problem (legal, medical, etc...) than fix a problem. Not harping or pointing fingers - it's just that one of the prior posts has an implicit anti-lawyer bent and I need to stand up for my profession.
posted by webhund at 9:25 AM on May 21, 2008
Determine exactly what type of legal access you have to your property and/or the road.
That will get you going down the right road (pun intended) to figuring out what your rights and responsibilities are. If you have an access easement, it may set forth the maintenance responsibilities. If there is no written easement, you may have a prescriptive easement or an easement by necessity in order to gain access to the closest public street.
Once you know what formal, written easements exist or do not exist, then you will be a long way toward determining the scope of your access rights and whether you are bound to share in any costs, maintenance obligations, etc...
If no formal recorded easement exists, then the better part of caution and for the future is to get one recorded. In the meantime, you'll have to figure out whether any prescriptive easement exists. Yes, this will involve an attorney most likely. But remember - the reason you're seeing an attorney now will probably be because someone didn't see an attorney when the original street/driveway sharing arrangement first began or no one checked when the property was purchased to ferret out these issues. It's a lot cheaper to prevent a problem (legal, medical, etc...) than fix a problem. Not harping or pointing fingers - it's just that one of the prior posts has an implicit anti-lawyer bent and I need to stand up for my profession.
posted by webhund at 9:25 AM on May 21, 2008
Best answer: Why don't you invite your neighbors over for a nice cup of coffee and a chat.
Yes, ALL your neighbors.
They should be the ones inviting the neighbours round for a friendly chat and a cup of coffee, they're the ones planning to stiff the whole street with a hefty bill without consulting you... however, maybe your neighbour got the wrong end of the stick, this is 3rd hadn information, you've had nothing 'from the horses mouth' so to speak, maybe its just something they're thinking about doing and will discuss it with everyone when they're ready or maybe they discussed it with the neighbour you've heard the story from, he/she responded badly to the idea and they've changed their minds.
If it were me, I'd do nothing and not worry about it until the situation arises, I certainly wouldn't go confronting my new neighbours (in a friendly or otherwise way) about 3rd hand gossip. And if they went ahead with it, without every speaking to me or writing to me about it and then sent me a bill, I would send them a polite letter explaining that I will not be constributing to the cost of the work they chose to have done.
Even if they are relatives of the magistrate, I can't imagine any situation where you could be legally required to pay a bill without prior agreement (other than parking fines/speeding tickets). Even if you signed something saying you agree to share costs of maintenance etc, I would think that you would at the very least need to be informed in writing, if not agree to it in the first place.
posted by missmagenta at 9:31 AM on May 21, 2008
Yes, ALL your neighbors.
They should be the ones inviting the neighbours round for a friendly chat and a cup of coffee, they're the ones planning to stiff the whole street with a hefty bill without consulting you... however, maybe your neighbour got the wrong end of the stick, this is 3rd hadn information, you've had nothing 'from the horses mouth' so to speak, maybe its just something they're thinking about doing and will discuss it with everyone when they're ready or maybe they discussed it with the neighbour you've heard the story from, he/she responded badly to the idea and they've changed their minds.
If it were me, I'd do nothing and not worry about it until the situation arises, I certainly wouldn't go confronting my new neighbours (in a friendly or otherwise way) about 3rd hand gossip. And if they went ahead with it, without every speaking to me or writing to me about it and then sent me a bill, I would send them a polite letter explaining that I will not be constributing to the cost of the work they chose to have done.
Even if they are relatives of the magistrate, I can't imagine any situation where you could be legally required to pay a bill without prior agreement (other than parking fines/speeding tickets). Even if you signed something saying you agree to share costs of maintenance etc, I would think that you would at the very least need to be informed in writing, if not agree to it in the first place.
posted by missmagenta at 9:31 AM on May 21, 2008
I've just remembered...it may be worth looking at what - on our deed - was called the "easement" clause.
Because there is a shared driveway between two properties - and has been for years - this was noted on the deed. When we bought what is effectively the front house, it was clear that - and it could have gone either way because both the houses were built roughly the same time around 100 years ago - we owned the driveway land.
We signed, as the previous owners of the house had done, an "easement" allowing our neighbor continued use of the driveway, but acknowledging we owned it. (There isn't really any other way our neighbor could get to his house.)
I mention this because I had actually asked our property lawyer what status an "easement" had. I assumed the historic use of the driveway by both separate owners was - effectively - more important if it ever came to a disagreement than the clause.
The lawyer surprised me. He said "not at all".
He said the "easement" did mean legally that we did indeed control use of the land and it was absolutely ours to revoke if we wished.
(Just thinking you might be able to check if this applies? It would be quite, er, jolly if your newbies have no actual rights to the driveway! On the other hand, it could open a can of worms!)
posted by Jody Tresidder at 9:40 AM on May 21, 2008
Because there is a shared driveway between two properties - and has been for years - this was noted on the deed. When we bought what is effectively the front house, it was clear that - and it could have gone either way because both the houses were built roughly the same time around 100 years ago - we owned the driveway land.
We signed, as the previous owners of the house had done, an "easement" allowing our neighbor continued use of the driveway, but acknowledging we owned it. (There isn't really any other way our neighbor could get to his house.)
I mention this because I had actually asked our property lawyer what status an "easement" had. I assumed the historic use of the driveway by both separate owners was - effectively - more important if it ever came to a disagreement than the clause.
The lawyer surprised me. He said "not at all".
He said the "easement" did mean legally that we did indeed control use of the land and it was absolutely ours to revoke if we wished.
(Just thinking you might be able to check if this applies? It would be quite, er, jolly if your newbies have no actual rights to the driveway! On the other hand, it could open a can of worms!)
posted by Jody Tresidder at 9:40 AM on May 21, 2008
(Sorry - posted before previewing. Repetitive!)
posted by Jody Tresidder at 9:44 AM on May 21, 2008
posted by Jody Tresidder at 9:44 AM on May 21, 2008
Under certain circumstances, a court can declare that a quasi-contract exists where a person allows work to continue, which, while unauthorized, benefits that person. Most examples of this that I have seen involve work to benefit a homeowner with the knowledge but not authorization of that homeowner.
I am not a lawyer and I do not know whether this set of facts would fit. I would hope that it does not. But due to the remote possibility that this argument will even be made, and the benefits of having good neighborly relations, I think it would be a much better idea to talk about things before the work is done.
posted by grouse at 9:58 AM on May 21, 2008
I am not a lawyer and I do not know whether this set of facts would fit. I would hope that it does not. But due to the remote possibility that this argument will even be made, and the benefits of having good neighborly relations, I think it would be a much better idea to talk about things before the work is done.
posted by grouse at 9:58 AM on May 21, 2008
Get a lawyer now. Shouldn't cost too much money to let him draft a letter to the effect that "My clients have become aware of your intent to conduct road repairs on the access road leading to our houses and later send us a bill for a portion of the work, despite the fact that we have not been informed by you of your plans."
split the bill between the other neighbors for the legal work.
posted by Ironmouth at 10:04 AM on May 21, 2008
split the bill between the other neighbors for the legal work.
posted by Ironmouth at 10:04 AM on May 21, 2008
I would NOT wait until something happens. As my Sicilian father always says "The best defense is a good offense". I also concur that conversation is called for. The three "old" neighbors should organize first and do a little homework:
1. Who actually owns the land this driveway is on? Technically, the neighbors may be renovating property that isn't theirs, which would stop any legitimate contractor cold.
2. What do your property deeds say about this driveway (sounds like it might be shared, but it may also be an easement).
3. Does this construction require planning permission from the town/township? Who approves the permits? Can neighbors comment on the proposal?
4. The three of you should spend a little money on a lawyer and give him/her your findings on the first three points. Mention the magistrate issue.
Then have a meeting with the ones planning the project and present your proposal (DO the work and pay for it yourself OR don't do the work, I assume).
Finally, if this does end up in front of the magistrate, he should recuse himself from ruling on something involving family members, close friends etc. You can always report him to the bar for ethical violations if he doesn't.
posted by OlderThanTOS at 10:44 AM on May 21, 2008
1. Who actually owns the land this driveway is on? Technically, the neighbors may be renovating property that isn't theirs, which would stop any legitimate contractor cold.
2. What do your property deeds say about this driveway (sounds like it might be shared, but it may also be an easement).
3. Does this construction require planning permission from the town/township? Who approves the permits? Can neighbors comment on the proposal?
4. The three of you should spend a little money on a lawyer and give him/her your findings on the first three points. Mention the magistrate issue.
Then have a meeting with the ones planning the project and present your proposal (DO the work and pay for it yourself OR don't do the work, I assume).
Finally, if this does end up in front of the magistrate, he should recuse himself from ruling on something involving family members, close friends etc. You can always report him to the bar for ethical violations if he doesn't.
posted by OlderThanTOS at 10:44 AM on May 21, 2008
Jody Tresidder writes "He said the 'easement' did mean legally that we did indeed control use of the land and it was absolutely ours to revoke if we wished."
Generally easements registered on a deed don't work this way. They are non revocable (except by mutual consent I'd guess) which is why they are registered on the deed. Usually the easement is put in place when the property is subdivided in order to, in this case, guarantee access to the rear property. Otherwise who in their right mind would buy the rear property?
Now if the easement isn't registered things change. However, at least around here, historical access can create a defacto easement even if it's not registered.
posted by Mitheral at 11:21 AM on May 21, 2008
Generally easements registered on a deed don't work this way. They are non revocable (except by mutual consent I'd guess) which is why they are registered on the deed. Usually the easement is put in place when the property is subdivided in order to, in this case, guarantee access to the rear property. Otherwise who in their right mind would buy the rear property?
Now if the easement isn't registered things change. However, at least around here, historical access can create a defacto easement even if it's not registered.
posted by Mitheral at 11:21 AM on May 21, 2008
Mitheral,
"Usually the easement is put in place when the property is subdivided in order to, in this case, guarantee access to the rear property. Otherwise who in their right mind would buy the rear property?"
Indeed!
As I said, I was startled by the lawyer's interpretation.
(I have a feeling - though obviously we never pursued it by, say, asking to examine our rear neighbor's deeds - that a wide, unused strip of impassable, densely shrub-overgrown land running pointlessly the entire length of the shared driveway is, in fact, the original access driveway belonging to the back property. It's neatly just outside our boundary line. Since the guy doesn't have the funds for gravel let alone major landscaping - and we all rub along- we've never taken this possibility further.)
posted by Jody Tresidder at 12:58 PM on May 21, 2008
"Usually the easement is put in place when the property is subdivided in order to, in this case, guarantee access to the rear property. Otherwise who in their right mind would buy the rear property?"
Indeed!
As I said, I was startled by the lawyer's interpretation.
(I have a feeling - though obviously we never pursued it by, say, asking to examine our rear neighbor's deeds - that a wide, unused strip of impassable, densely shrub-overgrown land running pointlessly the entire length of the shared driveway is, in fact, the original access driveway belonging to the back property. It's neatly just outside our boundary line. Since the guy doesn't have the funds for gravel let alone major landscaping - and we all rub along- we've never taken this possibility further.)
posted by Jody Tresidder at 12:58 PM on May 21, 2008
Unless you are prepared for an all-out, decades-long property dispute, get this cleared up before anyone puts gravel on anything. My grandparents were in a similar situation with a driveway access easment (in the UK, not the USA), and despite their passing and nearly 20 years going by, my uncle is *still* fighting with the neighbors about it.
Property disputes have the ability to become multi-generational.
Just sayin'.
posted by 5MeoCMP at 8:05 PM on May 21, 2008
Property disputes have the ability to become multi-generational.
Just sayin'.
posted by 5MeoCMP at 8:05 PM on May 21, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
he people who have decided to do this are close (*very* close) relatives of the local magistrate.
and this:
it could cost us just as much in legal fees as it would to just go ahead and pay the bill.
posted by the christopher hundreds at 8:01 AM on May 21, 2008