Do I have to disclose that I received a warning at a former place of employment?
March 31, 2008 7:09 AM Subscribe
I'm very close to getting hired by the firm I want. They just want me to fill out their employment application now. It says, "Did you receive any formal discipline (warnings, suspensions, resignation at request of employer, discharge) at your former or current place of employment? Do I have to answer "Yes"?
My former employer issued a warning against me, out of spite, which I appealed and issued a formal complaint against my manager and HR. They ended up terminating my contract and buying me out with a generous severance in return for my resignation. In all the reference agencies I hired to see what they would say about me, they usually just confirm the dates I was hired and nothing more.
Is it likely that they would disclose that I received a warning? I'm pretty sure that it would be a dealbreaker for the job.
My former employer issued a warning against me, out of spite, which I appealed and issued a formal complaint against my manager and HR. They ended up terminating my contract and buying me out with a generous severance in return for my resignation. In all the reference agencies I hired to see what they would say about me, they usually just confirm the dates I was hired and nothing more.
Is it likely that they would disclose that I received a warning? I'm pretty sure that it would be a dealbreaker for the job.
Based on an employer-sponsored management class they would like not answer that question due to potential liability. The most damning question would likely be "Is he/she eligible for rehire?
It is a Catch-22 because if you say no and get the job it could be grounds for dismissal if they found out. Best of luck.
posted by swarkentien at 7:37 AM on March 31, 2008
It is a Catch-22 because if you say no and get the job it could be grounds for dismissal if they found out. Best of luck.
posted by swarkentien at 7:37 AM on March 31, 2008
Sounds like you have a reasonable explanation....and its good that you followed up on it and issued the complaint....they should be much more likely to believe that it was a bogus warning.
I would disclose it. They could find out 3 years down the line that you lied about it and can you like that.
posted by ian1977 at 7:39 AM on March 31, 2008
I would disclose it. They could find out 3 years down the line that you lied about it and can you like that.
posted by ian1977 at 7:39 AM on March 31, 2008
Define have to disclose. I feel this is a judgment call that you, as the candidate, need to make for yourself. If you feel positive that checking the "yes" box will put you out of the running for the position, check "no." It sounds like you have some wiggle room in the details of what happened at your last job. I think it's probably pretty unlikely that your former employer will disclose that information, especially if all they're asked to do is provide employment verification. After all, it's not as though they're calling a reference for details. That said, if they do find out somehow that you received a warning, they're pretty unlikely to ask you for your explanation. They'd probably write you off immediately as a candidate without giving you a chance to respond. By the way, I'm sure that you know this, but my mother (a human resources director of 25 years) is nagging in my head: if they do ask you about the split from your old company, don't badmouth them. It's like talking about an old spouse on a date;it leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth, and your new prospect starts to wonder if that's going to be them in 2 years. Good luck!
posted by theantikitty at 7:44 AM on March 31, 2008
posted by theantikitty at 7:44 AM on March 31, 2008
Normally I would never lie about something like this, but based on the information you have given, my gut reaction is that you should forget about the incident with your former employer. I think your biggest worry though is that someone with knowledge of the incident would come to work at this new employer and have access to your personnel file. The stress caused by worrying about this somewhat remote possibility might be enough to say you better admit to it now, but then again, that seems like a pretty remote possibility.
posted by thomas144 at 7:48 AM on March 31, 2008
posted by thomas144 at 7:48 AM on March 31, 2008
Check "No", then make an addendum to clarify what did happen.
posted by mmf at 7:49 AM on March 31, 2008
posted by mmf at 7:49 AM on March 31, 2008
There's no wiggle room here. They want you to disclose warnings (etc.) from previous employers, you received one.
Saying "no" is an overt lie, and hiding the warning will make you look 100% guilty if it's ever discovered. The conventional wisdom is that innocent people don't hide things, and if someone finds out about this warning a few months or years down the road, you're going to be in a bit of trouble. You wouldn't buy "I didn't think it applied" and neither are they.
Imagine they find out in six months. The big risk for you is that it essentially makes your entire employment voidable because you were hired under false pretenses. Severance, vacation days, etc... gone. You could be out jobless with zero notice.
It seems odd that such a minor thing would be an immediate disqualifier, too, unless there's more to the story than you're letting on, but that's beside the point.
The question isn't "is this a warning I have to disclose" it's "should I lie about this warning I received in order to get a job." Which isn't really something anyone here can answer for you.
If you want to analyze the risk, understand that there are a million ways they could find out about the warning, and most of them do not involve calling and asking. They hire someone else who knows about the warning, someone in management or HR is friends with someone from your old company, etc.
The bottom line is that you're going to have to decide if you, personally, are willing to lie on your application to get the job, but there's really no question that they're asking you to disclose exactly what you're trying to avoid disclosing.
For those wanting to get semantic about what a warning is, notice that the word "formal" modifies "discipline" and not "warning". The parentheses mean that a warning is just one example of "formal discipline".
posted by toomuchpete at 7:59 AM on March 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
Saying "no" is an overt lie, and hiding the warning will make you look 100% guilty if it's ever discovered. The conventional wisdom is that innocent people don't hide things, and if someone finds out about this warning a few months or years down the road, you're going to be in a bit of trouble. You wouldn't buy "I didn't think it applied" and neither are they.
Imagine they find out in six months. The big risk for you is that it essentially makes your entire employment voidable because you were hired under false pretenses. Severance, vacation days, etc... gone. You could be out jobless with zero notice.
It seems odd that such a minor thing would be an immediate disqualifier, too, unless there's more to the story than you're letting on, but that's beside the point.
The question isn't "is this a warning I have to disclose" it's "should I lie about this warning I received in order to get a job." Which isn't really something anyone here can answer for you.
If you want to analyze the risk, understand that there are a million ways they could find out about the warning, and most of them do not involve calling and asking. They hire someone else who knows about the warning, someone in management or HR is friends with someone from your old company, etc.
The bottom line is that you're going to have to decide if you, personally, are willing to lie on your application to get the job, but there's really no question that they're asking you to disclose exactly what you're trying to avoid disclosing.
For those wanting to get semantic about what a warning is, notice that the word "formal" modifies "discipline" and not "warning". The parentheses mean that a warning is just one example of "formal discipline".
posted by toomuchpete at 7:59 AM on March 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
Leave that question blank.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 8:07 AM on March 31, 2008
posted by JohnnyGunn at 8:07 AM on March 31, 2008
I think the issuing of the warning qualifies, within the spirit of the question. I would disclose and add an addendum explaining what happened. I went through the same debate when considering whether to disclosed a now-sealed criminal charge. If you have to agonize over it, it probably means that you're weighing whether or not you want to lie.
posted by craven_morhead at 8:10 AM on March 31, 2008
posted by craven_morhead at 8:10 AM on March 31, 2008
Just say no. It's what they expect, what they'd want if you were representing them and just about to close an important deal. If you say yes, they'll just think you're stupid for shooting yourself in the foot. They're not really interested in the minutiae of what happened to you in previous jobs. Water under the bridge.
posted by Phanx at 8:36 AM on March 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Phanx at 8:36 AM on March 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'm a bit baffled by the idea that ever having received a formal warning would immediately disqualify you from a job without further consideration or discussion. It sounds more like they just want full disclosure from you, in general. You should say "yes," which is the truth, and then explain your side of things, with references, which is also the truth. Since the truth is on your side, you only have to worry if your firm is going to respond reasonably to a situation you are in. And if they're not going to be reasonable at the outset of your work experience, then that would be an early warning to not work there.
posted by Sticherbeast at 9:29 AM on March 31, 2008
posted by Sticherbeast at 9:29 AM on March 31, 2008
Leave that question blank.
JohnnyGun, that's like putting a big magnifying glass right on it that says to the employer: "Investigate this!" I would not recommend leaving it blank.
onepapertiger, it might be a relief to you if you did consult a lawyer on this, just to be sure and ease your mind.
posted by Taken Outtacontext at 9:37 AM on March 31, 2008
JohnnyGun, that's like putting a big magnifying glass right on it that says to the employer: "Investigate this!" I would not recommend leaving it blank.
onepapertiger, it might be a relief to you if you did consult a lawyer on this, just to be sure and ease your mind.
posted by Taken Outtacontext at 9:37 AM on March 31, 2008
As another data point, I was applying for a legal job, and my law school's career services officer explained that the fact that I was cited in the past probably wouldn't hurt me, but not disclosing it would. If later discovered, the question of "what else is he hiding" becomes very significant.
posted by craven_morhead at 9:54 AM on March 31, 2008
posted by craven_morhead at 9:54 AM on March 31, 2008
I would disclose, with an addendum. You don't want to give them an excuse to fire you later.
If disclosing means that the company refuses to hire you, despite the addendum and explanation, do you really want to work for them? Unless you live in an area, or work in an industry with high un-or-underemployment, where employers use mega-picky screening just to thin the herd - someone who won't give you a chance, or overlook the circumstances, surrounding your citation isn't the kind of company you really want to work for.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 11:12 AM on March 31, 2008
If disclosing means that the company refuses to hire you, despite the addendum and explanation, do you really want to work for them? Unless you live in an area, or work in an industry with high un-or-underemployment, where employers use mega-picky screening just to thin the herd - someone who won't give you a chance, or overlook the circumstances, surrounding your citation isn't the kind of company you really want to work for.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 11:12 AM on March 31, 2008
Answer no. "Excuse to fire you later" is ridiculous - if they like your work and need you, they won't use it against you. If they want to get rid of you, they will find a way.
posted by MillMan at 11:16 AM on March 31, 2008
posted by MillMan at 11:16 AM on March 31, 2008
Do you have a settlement agreement -- something you signed -- when you received your severance? Usually those state what the former employer will say if contacted by potential employers. Pull out the document and read it to see.
Assuming that the severance agreement does not answer the question, I think this is one of those risk-benefit scenarios -- you're going to have to assume some risk because whatever you do will have some risk. Answering yes or "question mark" may lead to a long negative discussion that ends with no offer. Answering no may later be construed as a lie (if for some reason your employment with the new employer blows up and it starts looking for a reason to terminate you).
In the short term, most former employers who are large enough to have HR departments and lawyers try to say as little as possible about former employees with whom they have had extended conflicts.
In the long term, information about "lies" on application forms often comes out during litigation; the information is often not discovered before litigation. In litigation, lies on forms are often big themes with juries, with the employer's lawyer pounding away on lies.
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 12:02 PM on March 31, 2008
Assuming that the severance agreement does not answer the question, I think this is one of those risk-benefit scenarios -- you're going to have to assume some risk because whatever you do will have some risk. Answering yes or "question mark" may lead to a long negative discussion that ends with no offer. Answering no may later be construed as a lie (if for some reason your employment with the new employer blows up and it starts looking for a reason to terminate you).
In the short term, most former employers who are large enough to have HR departments and lawyers try to say as little as possible about former employees with whom they have had extended conflicts.
In the long term, information about "lies" on application forms often comes out during litigation; the information is often not discovered before litigation. In litigation, lies on forms are often big themes with juries, with the employer's lawyer pounding away on lies.
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 12:02 PM on March 31, 2008
Response by poster: I do have a settlement agreement. I will have to look it up when I get home. I know it states something about confidentiality and the HR people and the manager I have had in the past both usually give answers like the company policy is only to give dates of employment.
posted by onepapertiger at 12:46 PM on March 31, 2008
posted by onepapertiger at 12:46 PM on March 31, 2008
I don't have anything really specific for the question, but it seems strange that the new employer would even have access to this information. Companies are not in the habit of disclosing a former employee's record, by request or otherwise.
posted by rhizome at 1:31 PM on March 31, 2008
posted by rhizome at 1:31 PM on March 31, 2008
Best answer: Answer honestly. My previous employer complained of X. I disagreed w/ my manager's assessment, and appealed. My previous employer and I came to a mutually satisfactory resolution. Yes, you have to be honest. Do not in any way disparage your previous employer.
posted by theora55 at 2:51 PM on March 31, 2008
posted by theora55 at 2:51 PM on March 31, 2008
"'Excuse to fire you later' is ridiculous - if they like your work and need you, they won't use it against you. If they want to get rid of you, they will find a way."
Unless two of the skills they want are honesty and trustworthiness, in which case you will likely be fired on the spot.
If you're being hired as a cog in a big wheel, it probably won't matter. Then again, they could probably replace you pretty easily. If your job is one of any sort of importance or responsibility, lying on your employment app is a clear demonstration that you're not to be trusted. Even if they keep you, do you really think it won't impact your future promotion choices? "Hmm... between these two, one of them has a rep for being trustworthy, the other lied in his very first interaction with this company." Difficult choice.
Further... if they're going to not hire you because you got a warning at a previous job, in what world would they not fire you for lying to them?
Another reason not to lie on your application, and one it surprises me that so few MeFites seem care about, is... because it's lying. If you're okay with that, you might as well go ahead and make up some past jobs, bump your college GPA a bit, and give yourself some kind of prestigious award while you're at it. The only difference between those and this is the likelihood of discovery.
The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out. -- Baron Thomas Babington Macauley
posted by toomuchpete at 3:38 PM on March 31, 2008
Unless two of the skills they want are honesty and trustworthiness, in which case you will likely be fired on the spot.
If you're being hired as a cog in a big wheel, it probably won't matter. Then again, they could probably replace you pretty easily. If your job is one of any sort of importance or responsibility, lying on your employment app is a clear demonstration that you're not to be trusted. Even if they keep you, do you really think it won't impact your future promotion choices? "Hmm... between these two, one of them has a rep for being trustworthy, the other lied in his very first interaction with this company." Difficult choice.
Further... if they're going to not hire you because you got a warning at a previous job, in what world would they not fire you for lying to them?
Another reason not to lie on your application, and one it surprises me that so few MeFites seem care about, is... because it's lying. If you're okay with that, you might as well go ahead and make up some past jobs, bump your college GPA a bit, and give yourself some kind of prestigious award while you're at it. The only difference between those and this is the likelihood of discovery.
The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out. -- Baron Thomas Babington Macauley
posted by toomuchpete at 3:38 PM on March 31, 2008
Response by poster: My settlement says the following:
"The parties agree and acknowledge that the terms of this Agreement are confidential. Each party warrants that it or she will not individually, jointly, or through its or her attorneys or other representatives, or those acting on its or her behalf in any manner publish, publicize, or other make known to any person the fact of this Agreement and/or the terms and conditions of this Agreement, and the discussions that led up to it, except to its or her financial or tax advisors; and then only after said advisors have agreed to be bound by the provisions of this paragraph to make no futher disclosure."
Does that count for not talking about the verbal warning? Because I cited the verbal warning in my complaint, which was what got me on this road to severance and resignation in the first place.
posted by onepapertiger at 6:32 PM on March 31, 2008
"The parties agree and acknowledge that the terms of this Agreement are confidential. Each party warrants that it or she will not individually, jointly, or through its or her attorneys or other representatives, or those acting on its or her behalf in any manner publish, publicize, or other make known to any person the fact of this Agreement and/or the terms and conditions of this Agreement, and the discussions that led up to it, except to its or her financial or tax advisors; and then only after said advisors have agreed to be bound by the provisions of this paragraph to make no futher disclosure."
Does that count for not talking about the verbal warning? Because I cited the verbal warning in my complaint, which was what got me on this road to severance and resignation in the first place.
posted by onepapertiger at 6:32 PM on March 31, 2008
It sounds like from what you've quoted from the severance agreement and from what you say your former company's standard procedure is, the chances of the warning being disclosed are virtually nil. Plus the question asked of you is whether you received any formal discipline. I think you can make a credible claim that the matter was resolved in a manner that effectively voided any discipline you may have been given. While it certainly is a personal decision for you to make, if I were you, I wouldn't disclose it.
However, if you do choose to disclose it, I think the wording suggested above by theora55 is ideal.
posted by mahamandarava at 3:06 PM on April 2, 2008
However, if you do choose to disclose it, I think the wording suggested above by theora55 is ideal.
posted by mahamandarava at 3:06 PM on April 2, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
I would also be very, very surprised if your former employer would disclose the fact that you received a warning, anyway. Their lawyer would tell them not to do so, because if the revelation cost you a job, you would be likely to sue them.
posted by cerebus19 at 7:37 AM on March 31, 2008