When is "to" unecessary?
February 28, 2008 1:40 PM Subscribe
Is there a grammar rule that deals with when to use a "to" following certain phrases like "help"? For instance, "Product Wonderful will help you sleep better" -or- "Product Wonderful will help you to sleep better." To my ear, I prefer it without the "to," but I don't know if there's a grammar issue let alone a style guide preference.
While we're at it, is it one space after a period or two? Just wondering if the momentum has swung completely to the one space rule (I prefer seeing two spaces but others seem to think it's a sin).
Thanks for any thoughts on these pressing issues.
While we're at it, is it one space after a period or two? Just wondering if the momentum has swung completely to the one space rule (I prefer seeing two spaces but others seem to think it's a sin).
Thanks for any thoughts on these pressing issues.
I'm under the impression that both are personal preferences. I opt for the two spaces after a period myself. Just one looks very wrong to me.
posted by kjackelen05 at 1:54 PM on February 28, 2008
posted by kjackelen05 at 1:54 PM on February 28, 2008
Seconding one space after periods. That was taught to me when I worked at a newspaper.
As far as the word "to": It's been awhile since the AP Stylebook was my own personal Bible, but I believe either of your examples are OK. The only issue is if you split the infinitive (put an adjective between the "to" and the verb; i.e., "...to better sleep").
posted by po822000 at 1:56 PM on February 28, 2008
As far as the word "to": It's been awhile since the AP Stylebook was my own personal Bible, but I believe either of your examples are OK. The only issue is if you split the infinitive (put an adjective between the "to" and the verb; i.e., "...to better sleep").
posted by po822000 at 1:56 PM on February 28, 2008
Any more than one space after a period looks completely wrong to me and tends to throw off my reading momentum a bit.
posted by Meagan at 1:57 PM on February 28, 2008
posted by Meagan at 1:57 PM on February 28, 2008
After learning languages that require conjugation, it's difficult not to pick up on it when going back to English. So I'm pretty interested in this as well.
As for one space or two after a period, I've always preferred one. Two spaces came to my attention only during college, but nowhere else.
posted by chan.caro at 1:58 PM on February 28, 2008
As for one space or two after a period, I've always preferred one. Two spaces came to my attention only during college, but nowhere else.
posted by chan.caro at 1:58 PM on February 28, 2008
"Product Wonderful will help you to sleep better." is a more wordy. The 'to' is acceptable grammar, but not necessary.
posted by goethean at 1:59 PM on February 28, 2008
posted by goethean at 1:59 PM on February 28, 2008
The major style guides advise using a single space after a full stop. However, wikipedia reports that there is an argument in favor of double spacing grounded in accessibility concerns for dyslexic readers.
And just to counter wemayfreeze's anecdotal evidence, I find that two spaces after a full stop looks much, much better. (I was very happy when my editorial board didn't try to correct my use of double spaces in my MA.)
posted by oddman at 2:12 PM on February 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
And just to counter wemayfreeze's anecdotal evidence, I find that two spaces after a full stop looks much, much better. (I was very happy when my editorial board didn't try to correct my use of double spaces in my MA.)
posted by oddman at 2:12 PM on February 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
Odd. I've always used two spaces after a period and every technical editor I've ever used insists on it, at least for the professional and legal documents I help create. I've never even heard of the option of only one space. Go figure.
posted by elendil71 at 2:12 PM on February 28, 2008
posted by elendil71 at 2:12 PM on February 28, 2008
With or without "to" is perfectly OK. Use whichever sounds better to you.
posted by languagehat at 2:15 PM on February 28, 2008
posted by languagehat at 2:15 PM on February 28, 2008
I was taught two spaces when I learned to touch-type, but that was on a manual typewriter, so the "two in a monospaced font, one for all others" rule makes sense too. I still do two out of habit. Web browsers collapse multiple spaces into a single space anyway (unless you're using some kind of special space such as ), so it looks the same either way on the web. For example, I just put twenty spaces between the preceding sentence and this one (check the page source).
Agreed that either with or without "to" is correct in your example.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 2:18 PM on February 28, 2008
Agreed that either with or without "to" is correct in your example.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 2:18 PM on February 28, 2008
Argh, that worked on preview. The parenthetical comment should read "(unless you're using some kind of special space such as )."
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 2:19 PM on February 28, 2008
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 2:19 PM on February 28, 2008
Best answer: The issue comes from the fact that the "to" isn't actually part of the infinitive in English (as demonstrated by the fact that it can be omitted and the sentence remains grammatical). That's also whence the issue about splitting infinitives; it can't be done in Latin as the infinitive is only one word, so by analogy infinitives aren't split in English. The rule started with Bishop Lowth in the 18th century, I think.
Oh, and I'm a one-space guy.
posted by katrielalex at 2:28 PM on February 28, 2008
Oh, and I'm a one-space guy.
posted by katrielalex at 2:28 PM on February 28, 2008
With or without "to", as others have said.
I am a single-space person, although I also learned (in typing class!) way back when that it should be two. But now I work in a place that uses two spaces, and I hate it, but I am responsible (as keeper of what house style we have) for enforcing it.
posted by rtha at 2:33 PM on February 28, 2008
I am a single-space person, although I also learned (in typing class!) way back when that it should be two. But now I work in a place that uses two spaces, and I hate it, but I am responsible (as keeper of what house style we have) for enforcing it.
posted by rtha at 2:33 PM on February 28, 2008
Two spaces. Breaks the paragraph up into sentences, visually.
posted by amtho at 2:37 PM on February 28, 2008
posted by amtho at 2:37 PM on February 28, 2008
Microsoft Word increases the size of the space after a period, negating the need to type two spaces. I explain this to people (stereotypically, my older colleagues) at work on at least a weekly basis.
Isn't this a throwback to the days of typewriters that only used mono-spaced typefaces?
posted by tapeguy at 2:41 PM on February 28, 2008
Isn't this a throwback to the days of typewriters that only used mono-spaced typefaces?
posted by tapeguy at 2:41 PM on February 28, 2008
I've ALWAYS been taught to use two spaces after a period. I've always assumed this was to better distinguish it from a comma.
FWIW, the Internet doesn't like two spaces, and will automatically remove one of them. I hate the Internet.
posted by Sys Rq at 2:45 PM on February 28, 2008
FWIW, the Internet doesn't like two spaces, and will automatically remove one of them. I hate the Internet.
posted by Sys Rq at 2:45 PM on February 28, 2008
Response by poster: Microsoft Word increases the size of the space after a period, negating the need to type two spaces.
I have heard people say this but I just don't see it. Word is atrocious with kerning.
posted by _sirmissalot_ at 2:53 PM on February 28, 2008
I have heard people say this but I just don't see it. Word is atrocious with kerning.
posted by _sirmissalot_ at 2:53 PM on February 28, 2008
Two spaces for monospace typefaces OR when typing for American audiences. One for elsewhere and (usually) other languages.
IANALinguist, but I think there's very little difference in your "to" question. Without "to" gives (in my mind) a greater sense of urgency or immediacy. With "to", it sounds more distant and conditional or qualified, as something that may be unnecessary or uncertain.
posted by cmiller at 2:53 PM on February 28, 2008
IANALinguist, but I think there's very little difference in your "to" question. Without "to" gives (in my mind) a greater sense of urgency or immediacy. With "to", it sounds more distant and conditional or qualified, as something that may be unnecessary or uncertain.
posted by cmiller at 2:53 PM on February 28, 2008
My man Bringhurst says 1 space. You got a more authoritative authority than that?
posted by signal at 3:06 PM on February 28, 2008
posted by signal at 3:06 PM on February 28, 2008
With or without the "to" seems fine to me. Certainly most English speakers accept both as grammatical.
I prefer a greater space between periods and the initial letter of the following sentence than I do between individual words within a sentence. When I type, I definitely hit space twice. When I typeset something that needs to be right, I generally replace the two spaces with a single longer space--maybe 1.5 normal spaces. I do agree that two complete spaces looks weird.
When is the last time any of you saw a book typeset with two spaces after a period? Or a newspaper? It makes for awful, awful rivers and page color.
Uh, they look different than a web browser. The web browser most certainly collapses multiple spaces into a single space identical to all other single spaces represented by the ASCII octet produced by your space bar. I suspect that books and newspapers typeset their period-initial spaces in a fashion similar to my fractional space method above.
posted by Netzapper at 3:19 PM on February 28, 2008
I prefer a greater space between periods and the initial letter of the following sentence than I do between individual words within a sentence. When I type, I definitely hit space twice. When I typeset something that needs to be right, I generally replace the two spaces with a single longer space--maybe 1.5 normal spaces. I do agree that two complete spaces looks weird.
When is the last time any of you saw a book typeset with two spaces after a period? Or a newspaper? It makes for awful, awful rivers and page color.
Uh, they look different than a web browser. The web browser most certainly collapses multiple spaces into a single space identical to all other single spaces represented by the ASCII octet produced by your space bar. I suspect that books and newspapers typeset their period-initial spaces in a fashion similar to my fractional space method above.
posted by Netzapper at 3:19 PM on February 28, 2008
Two spaces is a typewriter rule. Now that we civilians have proportional type, it's one space.
I Was A Typesetter For Many Years (But Not Your Typesetter), both with lead and later with these newfangled digital computeridoos.
If you're still typing two spaces after a period, you're old, and you're emulating an old hack that is no longer needed. It's about the same as backing up and typing a word on top of itself again for emphasis, because there was no real bolding available.
posted by rokusan at 3:55 PM on February 28, 2008 [2 favorites]
I Was A Typesetter For Many Years (But Not Your Typesetter), both with lead and later with these newfangled digital computeridoos.
If you're still typing two spaces after a period, you're old, and you're emulating an old hack that is no longer needed. It's about the same as backing up and typing a word on top of itself again for emphasis, because there was no real bolding available.
posted by rokusan at 3:55 PM on February 28, 2008 [2 favorites]
Two spaces...when typing for American audiences.
That's odd. I work for a major American trade book publisher, and I've interned for two others, and they've all required one space. Strangely, I had to unlearn the two spaces habit despite never being taught it by a person. I started doing it as a young teen when I noticed that MS Word would automatically capitalize after two spaces but not one. It was much easier to unlearn than I thought it would be.
Both of your "help" sentences are grammatically correct.
posted by lampoil at 4:14 PM on February 28, 2008
That's odd. I work for a major American trade book publisher, and I've interned for two others, and they've all required one space. Strangely, I had to unlearn the two spaces habit despite never being taught it by a person. I started doing it as a young teen when I noticed that MS Word would automatically capitalize after two spaces but not one. It was much easier to unlearn than I thought it would be.
Both of your "help" sentences are grammatically correct.
posted by lampoil at 4:14 PM on February 28, 2008
Response by poster: Thanks for all of the great feedback. What I find odd about the spacing issue is that seems to me a technical issue, not a style issue. Different tools and different software treat the space after a period differently--so I've never understood why the Chicago Manual of Style, for instance, would have anything to say about it. If I'm typing in Word, I think it mushes the space after a period. If I lay something out in Illustrator, it looks great with one space. If I print it, it looks different than it does on screen. So that's why I'm interested in how/why organizations have such strict rules about it.
posted by _sirmissalot_ at 4:28 PM on February 28, 2008
posted by _sirmissalot_ at 4:28 PM on February 28, 2008
Unless you're typing on a typewriter, you shouldn't be using two spaces.
posted by caek at 4:29 PM on February 28, 2008
posted by caek at 4:29 PM on February 28, 2008
If you're still typing two spaces after a period, you're old, and you're emulating an old hack that is no longer needed. It's about the same as backing up and typing a word on top of itself again for emphasis, because there was no real bolding available.
I just discovered to my alarm that I am and always have been using two spaces and apparently that means I am some kind of dinosaur. The habit is so strongly formed that I don't know how I'll ever stop. Period and double-tap with the thumb, tap-tap. I guess this is the way I was taught as a child and I never heard otherwise until just now. I'm only 25 by the way. It's not your age that matters but the age of your teachers.
posted by PercussivePaul at 5:16 PM on February 28, 2008
I just discovered to my alarm that I am and always have been using two spaces and apparently that means I am some kind of dinosaur. The habit is so strongly formed that I don't know how I'll ever stop. Period and double-tap with the thumb, tap-tap. I guess this is the way I was taught as a child and I never heard otherwise until just now. I'm only 25 by the way. It's not your age that matters but the age of your teachers.
posted by PercussivePaul at 5:16 PM on February 28, 2008
For formal papers and bookwriting, it's two spaces. People who submit manuscripts and such use two spaces -- the people who naysay that have probably never submitted a manuscript. Many word processor programs automatically insert two spaces anyhow. It isn't an old-person thing at all. If you've submitted mss and were only required 1 space, they must not have been in the business very long -- it helps for reading text off the page and editing.
If you're changing it into HTML, web browsers tend to naturally change two-spaces into one unless the code has the ampersand tag for more.
posted by vanoakenfold at 5:59 PM on February 28, 2008
If you're changing it into HTML, web browsers tend to naturally change two-spaces into one unless the code has the ampersand tag for more.
posted by vanoakenfold at 5:59 PM on February 28, 2008
Rules which were made for proportionally set text in print are not the last word in the world of the teletype terminal, real or emulated. Hardcore plain text geeks will happily keep their two spaces because it makes non-proportionally spaced text easier to read, end of.
posted by galaksit at 6:31 PM on February 28, 2008
posted by galaksit at 6:31 PM on February 28, 2008
FWIW, the Internet doesn't like two spaces, and will automatically remove one of them. I hate the Internet.
I suspect this portends a inevitable victory to the use of one space becoming the accepted standard (if it isn't already). Perhaps not today, perhaps not tomorrow, but inescapable.
The internet loves you.
posted by -harlequin- at 7:19 PM on February 28, 2008
I suspect this portends a inevitable victory to the use of one space becoming the accepted standard (if it isn't already). Perhaps not today, perhaps not tomorrow, but inescapable.
The internet loves you.
posted by -harlequin- at 7:19 PM on February 28, 2008
I took a computer class in 1989 and was told two spaces after a period is no longer correct. She explained the history of the typewriter and that two spaces was, at one time, functional but computers have eliminated the need. I can't remember WHY it was functional though. Figures.
I'll agree with the folks that "to" is optional. Although for me, I can see dropping "to" for headlines but in an actual sentence, I'd likely use it.
posted by magnoliasouth at 9:36 PM on February 28, 2008
I'll agree with the folks that "to" is optional. Although for me, I can see dropping "to" for headlines but in an actual sentence, I'd likely use it.
posted by magnoliasouth at 9:36 PM on February 28, 2008
About "help":
When you include the "to", you're using the "to" infinitive. When you drop it, you're using the bare infinitive. (Help to sleep better vs help sleep better)
Nowadays, people will use either form. At some point in the past, you were supposed to go with the bare infinitive for verbs of perception. "Help see better", "Help hear better", etc. I think it was easy for people to make the jump to "help sleep better".
Also, when you throw "you" in there, I believe it becomes the object followed by the base form of the verb. (It's been 10+ years since I finished my English degree.) I'm not entirely sure how this works when you are not using a verb of perception. Try this resource.
posted by acoutu at 10:18 PM on February 28, 2008
When you include the "to", you're using the "to" infinitive. When you drop it, you're using the bare infinitive. (Help to sleep better vs help sleep better)
Nowadays, people will use either form. At some point in the past, you were supposed to go with the bare infinitive for verbs of perception. "Help see better", "Help hear better", etc. I think it was easy for people to make the jump to "help sleep better".
Also, when you throw "you" in there, I believe it becomes the object followed by the base form of the verb. (It's been 10+ years since I finished my English degree.) I'm not entirely sure how this works when you are not using a verb of perception. Try this resource.
posted by acoutu at 10:18 PM on February 28, 2008
People who submit manuscripts and such use two spaces -- the people who naysay that have probably never submitted a manuscript. Many word processor programs automatically insert two spaces anyhow. It isn't an old-person thing at all. If you've submitted mss and were only required 1 space, they must not have been in the business very long -- it helps for reading text off the page and editing.
It's not an old person thing, but if you don't do it, you must be too young to know better? I've been in the business five years, and work with other editors whose experience ranges from three months to more than 30 years. I don't care about sentence spacing and I never will. I've never heard another editor express an opinion on this in real life, either. All we know is that when we send a manuscript to design, it must have only one space after periods. We have to check for it either way, so it doesn't matter. Word processing programs don't insert two spaces--at least, I've never seen one that has; they insert one appropriately sized space. If a manuscript is double (paragraph) spaced, a normal font size, and has margins, I have room to edit it. That's really not going to change and even if it did, I'd insert the double spaces myself rather than require it of an author. As it takes a matter of seconds to switch it back and forth, it's the very definition of a non-issue.
posted by lampoil at 10:43 AM on February 29, 2008
It's not an old person thing, but if you don't do it, you must be too young to know better? I've been in the business five years, and work with other editors whose experience ranges from three months to more than 30 years. I don't care about sentence spacing and I never will. I've never heard another editor express an opinion on this in real life, either. All we know is that when we send a manuscript to design, it must have only one space after periods. We have to check for it either way, so it doesn't matter. Word processing programs don't insert two spaces--at least, I've never seen one that has; they insert one appropriately sized space. If a manuscript is double (paragraph) spaced, a normal font size, and has margins, I have room to edit it. That's really not going to change and even if it did, I'd insert the double spaces myself rather than require it of an author. As it takes a matter of seconds to switch it back and forth, it's the very definition of a non-issue.
posted by lampoil at 10:43 AM on February 29, 2008
I just discovered to my alarm that I am and always have been using two spaces and apparently that means I am some kind of dinosaur. The habit is so strongly formed that I don't know how I'll ever stop. I'm only 25 by the way. It's not your age that matters but the age of your teachers.
Good point. Yes, teachers are always to blame. :)
It took me years and years to break the two-space habit.
posted by rokusan at 5:08 AM on March 1, 2008
Good point. Yes, teachers are always to blame. :)
It took me years and years to break the two-space habit.
posted by rokusan at 5:08 AM on March 1, 2008
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posted by wemayfreeze at 1:46 PM on February 28, 2008