Can I still hang out with my best friend even though I'm in love with him?
February 3, 2008 9:01 AM   Subscribe

Can I still hang out with my best friend even though I'm in love with him?

I'm in love with my best friend. I told him this, and we hooked up a month or so ago (after I told him). He left on vacation for a month (we talked a few times, but not a lot), and came back last week. After several lengthy conversations, it became clear that he's still in love with his ex. He also seems to know that it's not particularly healthy, and is seriously considering seeing a therapist about it.

He also has feelings for me, both as a best friend and as potentially more. We've talked about it a lot, and he's said as much. But he's also said that he can't be in a relationship (and friends with benefits is not an option for either of us), largely due to his complicated relationship with his ex. She feels the similarly about him, but they haven't been together for four years because they live very far apart and don't want to be in a long-distance relationship. Neither has had more than a few dates with other people since their relationship ended.

I know that we need to be just friends, for his sanity and for mine. Problem is, I'm not sure I can fall out of love with him as long as we continue to hang out. But he's also my best friend, and the strength of our friendship is why I fell in love with him in the first place. Neither of us wants to lose that. This episode between us has also made him really confused about how he is in relationships in general, and he's turning to me for support.

Can I continue to hang out with him one-on-one, trusting that I can ignore my feelings for him and eventually get over it? Or do I need to stop hanging out with him until I feel differently, knowing that it might really hurt our friendship and our support network for each other?

Any advice or anecdotes about this kind of situation would be much appreciated.
posted by anonymous to Human Relations (35 answers total) 17 users marked this as a favorite
You need to stop hanging out with him, if you ever want to move on. He definitely shouldn't be coming to you for support on his relationship problems. Don't worry about his sanity, his problems, etc. Focus on your own.
posted by sweetkid at 9:08 AM on February 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

You can still hang out with him until you figure out what you mean to each other. Obviously this is complicated and the only way to work through it is to keep going, taking it one slow step at a time.
posted by Pants! at 9:17 AM on February 3, 2008

Best friends talk about just about everything. Do you really want to hear him pining for his ex or talking about sex with her?

Get some space, now, so you guys have a chance to become good friends in the future and for your own sanity. Because at this point, you're the other woman and there's a big bundle of heartache and pain waiting for you if you continue being his friend at this. And remember that being his friend and going out of your way for him won't make him love you more, at least not in the way you want. It'll just drive you insane.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:19 AM on February 3, 2008 [3 favorites]

No, I don't think that is a good idea for you. Having feelings and having that emotional connection but him not wanting more is going to be like picking off a scab over and over and over again for you. You can't heal or gain any perspective when the object of your affection is also the source of more pain.
posted by 45moore45 at 9:22 AM on February 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

I think you need to reevaluate here. You tell him how you feel about him, and...

1) he hooks up with you

2) then talks how he's in love with someone else but he might want you.

3) looks to you for support with his problems?

Um, the word that comes to my mind is weasel but it's probably tough to see him clearly through the fog of love.

Give yourself a two week break from him at least and then think if this is really the type of person you wish to pursue as a friend or partner.
posted by red_lotus at 9:27 AM on February 3, 2008 [5 favorites]

Sure sounds like your best friend is one of those guys who can't have a grown up relationship. Four years after breaking up with the ex he is still unavailable? That's nuts! Humans don't live long enough for him to get over his last relationship.

Forget about your own desires (which mean little to him, and which will not be satisfied by him) and note that he cares so much about you and your friendship that he took advantage of you emotionally and physically when he had the chance. Not much of a best friend, or any kind of friend.

I predict that if you are somehow able to pull back completely into friends-only mode that he will become quite seductive and try to draw you back into a physical relationship, then push you away again. This rollercoaster of unsatisfied desire and pain can be addictive, but will not result in anything that improves your life; break the habit now and protect your heart and sanity.
posted by Scram at 9:32 AM on February 3, 2008 [3 favorites]

Also, talking about your potential for a relationship with him will ruin that potential. You need to get scarce and let him figure out what he wants. If it's you, he'll miss you and come back. I know it's hard, but you just can't be that person who's always available.
posted by sweetkid at 9:33 AM on February 3, 2008

You should sit down together and talk, and agree to some space away from eachother for a while while you sort out your own problems. Get stuff into perspective. Right now your feelings are just going to confuse you and take up too much emotion for the friendship to be truly sincerely platonic, your deeper feelings are all still fresh so being "just friends" is going to feel like an act. You have to be patient with yourself. It's like when you're told you can't eat before you go to the doctor... suddenly all you can think about is how hungry you are and how much it sucks that you can't eat.

When I've been in that situation and we've tried to "force" ourselves to be friends, the relationship has crashed and burned. We would go about the friendship for a while but we were not being true to ourselves and the unspoken emotions were still there. So then one or both of us would get sick of holding them inside after a while and either explode or just plain sabotage the relationship to end it so we would be free of the pain. Don't do that. It's stupid.

I was in the situation this year, someone wanted to be in a relationship with me but he REALLY wasn't ready for one. And while we agreed to be platonic friends, we both know it's not possible. So I cut off all contact. He called me three months later to say hello and we talked a bit, but there were still a lot of red flags that we still weren't in a place where being friends or dating would've been healthy. So I had to cut off contact again. I was very clear of why, and he understood. Four months later he contacted me again and I agreed to see him for drinks. He was different than he had been six months before, and so was I. We were still attracted to eachother, but we had both done a lot of thinking while we'd been away from eachother. It really helped because we were forced to concentrate on trying to take care of ourselves instead of crashing and burning whatever connection we had. We're still walking very very delicately trying to figure out what our relationship should be, but so far it's MUCH MUCH healthier than it would've been without that 6 months of time to think and let our emotions settle.

But the fact is, although now I'm glad he did, if he hadn't continued calling me every three months and we had never gone out for that drink... I would've been just fine. I would've survived. As time passed, I had put him to the back of my mind. Which is healthy. We really do need to take care of ourselves first sometimes and not give someone else -- no matter how cute you may think they are -- the power over your happiness. If a relationship isn't meant to be, there's probably a good reason and you'll be better off without it. You need to take the time to get to know and like yourself first.

You need to figure out what you want and your friend needs to figure out what he wants. A platonic friendship may not be possible. Figuring out your feelings about this stuff will take time and maybe a little bit of solitude. But once you've got a litle perspective, reconvene and talk to eachother. See if you still mesh, whether you still have sexual tension or a platonic friendship is even what you want. Perhaps you really aren't even interested in eachother on a non-romantic level. Who knows. Just be patient with eachother (and yourselves) and take the time to figure it out. But be honest... don't pretend being platonic is okay with you when it isn't and pretending will cause you pain. It's better to walk away and move on than to do that.
posted by miss lynnster at 9:35 AM on February 3, 2008 [7 favorites]

If he wanted to be in a relationship with you, he would. Don't kid yourself into beleiving in mixed messages - that's an interpretation for people who are hanging on to hope by a thread.

Stay his friend, but make him a distant friend. Talk to him at parties and when you see each other through mutual friends, but stop being a one-on-one friend. It will be too difficult for you and you'll only end up losing him in the end - because you feel angry or hurt or frustrated, or because he feels pursued or trapped or frustrated himself.

Let him and the friendship go. If he wants to be with you, he'll come back to you.
posted by Kololo at 9:45 AM on February 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

I had the exact same situation happen to me a few years ago. I wholeheartedly agree with everyone saying to stay away from him, at least for a little while. I wish I did that, but the "fog of love" kept me coming back for more.

I wish I saw then how selfish my friend was being in the situation- because why would I want to be with someone who knows how I feel and is perfectly aware of how much they can hurt me with their actions-leading me on, etc..

Now, it is clear that I may have never been in love, but rather unhealthily obsessed with someone I couldn't have- which makes you want them more. Stop hooking up with him and explain that you need space for about 3 months, at the very least. If he is truly your best friend, he will understand and be there for you in the future. And if those feelings are still there, on both sides in the future, you know it was meant to be. But this cannot happen without space. Space and time bring so much clarity!
posted by missjamielynn at 10:05 AM on February 3, 2008

I was just in this situation. I've actually been in this situation from both sides... as the friend in love with the waffling person and the waffler.

Speaking as both -- run.

if he's been pining for his ex for four years and none of his other relationships have worked out because of her, he has her on a mile-high pedestal, and it's probably because he can't have her. You will not make a dent in that by any normal means. Even if you're the best girlfriend ever, you will still be real, and therefore you will not compare.

Back when I was the waffler, I screwed over a guy who was absolutely perfect for me because I was obsessed with someone not nearly as awesome who I couldn't have. I didn't realize how wonderful Perfect Guy was until he got sick of my crap and ditched me. Once I couldn't have him, either, I realized how badly I'd messed up.

But I didn't make, and probably never would have made, that realization until he left. I took him for granted, I didn't realize how important he was to me. If it makes you feel any better, I still regret it, and it's been ten years. In my case with Perfect Guy, I'd waited too long and ruined his feelings for me.

So do what Perfect Guy did, and what I did (successfully) when I was stuck in the same situation. Be just as unattainable, at least for a while. Let him miss you and realize how important you are. It is, thus far, the only way that I have found to turn a situation like this around. Don't let him have his pining and eat you too. If he flirts, don't flirt back. If he tries to get up ons, do not be up onned. Make plans with your other friends, take up an interesting new hobby, go out of town, whatever makes you unable to come running any time he feels like seeing you.

A personal warning: after I did this, the guy came to me and said that he'd picked me, the other girl sucked, and he wasn't going to talk to her anymore. I said YAY! and dated him.

He wasn't really over her. At all. Once the elation of having "won me back" wore off, he went right back to pining for her. Make sure they're really over the Unattainable Goddess before you date them, or my misery shall be yours. If they never get over them, well... then they'd rather be miserable and pining than happy and moving on, and you're probably better off.
posted by Gianna at 10:09 AM on February 3, 2008 [10 favorites]

I have been in a similar situation. Best friends, became more, didn't work out because of his ex, etc. It really hurt.

Many are going to tell you to cut him off. It's easier said than done. I've always been for interval training for physical fitness, so what we worked out is lunch once a week, like I would with a mere acquaintance. No more long talks every night, no more calling on him for support (or him calling on you for support), no more chats about very personal matters, but you have to accept that things aren't going to be the same. Maybe just not for now...maybe not ever.

You have to make some sort of commitment to distance. It doesn't have to be as harsh as "no contact for five months," but it has to be something. The distance will also personal reflection, it will also force him to not rely on you as a therapist and seek real help.
posted by melissam at 10:24 AM on February 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Having been in your situation you musn't kid yourself about your motives in all this. If you are in love with him, as a best friend but also as in, "God, I'd love to jump his bones" then you will not be able to "ignore" your feelings. And you will contnue to pick up on every sign of affection from him as, "well maybe he wants to jump mine too". He doesn't. He may well do in the future, he may get back with his ex, might find somebody else or might be alone the rest of his life. Nothing you can do can change this. No matter how much he says he would like to be with you "in an ideal world".

The girl in my situation has said she that if she could choose the father of her children then it would be me. That means that of all the people she's met, I have the best fatherly qualities, not that she actually wants to have sex with me, despite what I choose to read into it. It took me a long time to figure out the difference.

I have left relationships thinking that I would destroy the person in doing so. I didn't, but it's a natural way to think. As Miss Lynnster says, you can (and will) survive without him and he can survive without you.

What you are effectly doing is breaking up. You have all the parts of a very intense relationship with this guy, just without the sex, but if you had been having sex and then he suddenly said he didn't want the sex anymore but still needed the support you would most likely run - this is sadly what you need to do now. Just as we are trying to do. It hurts like a motherfucker, but with some luck you'll both be happier and with other people in a few months and maybe you can get the friendship back on track. Good luck!
posted by jontyjago at 10:26 AM on February 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

It's going to be really hard for you if you continue spending so much time with him. Unrequited love will destroy you if you let it. And one way to let it is to continue putting yourself in a situation where you are constantly reminded of how much you love someone that doesn't love you. Give yourself time to get over him and maybe you can try to be friends at a later time.
posted by HotPatatta at 10:26 AM on February 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Can I still hang out with my best friend even though I'm in love with him?


You have greater expectations for this relationship than he has, so you will always be dissatisfied with it. The best you'll ever be, if he eventually gives up on her and goes for you, is the consolation prize. He, meanwhile, will never be sure that you aren't after something else when all he wants is a shoulder to cry (about the other woman) on.

Give up and look for a new friend and a new lover (not the same person).
posted by pracowity at 10:30 AM on February 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

the best outcome here is not for you to be successful friends. the best outcome is that you become successful lovers.

until he gets therapy and gets over his ex, it would be kinder on you to stay apart. otherwise he will stand in the way of so much potential happiness for you.
posted by thinkingwoman at 11:02 AM on February 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Can I still hang out with my best friend even though I'm in love with him?

From personal experience of being on both ends of the equation, I'd say yes with a healthy dose of it depends. I don't really want to go into details here, but you can mefi mail me if you want. Ultimately, though, it requires your agreeing with him. If you continue to want a relationship, I agree it'll tear you apart. However, I think you can still be in love and accept that a relationship won't happen and be happy.
posted by jmd82 at 11:11 AM on February 3, 2008

Don't "dump" him as a friend, and don't go out looking immediately to try to replace him, in either way. Give yourself a lot of space from him and pursue other interests and people. He needs to understand, without you giving him an ultimatum, that you two will be at most friends (not best friends) as long as he refuses to man up and move on past his ex-girlfriend. Whether he wants to be good friends or something more, the pressure is on him and you are free to get on with your life.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 11:15 AM on February 3, 2008

When I read your question on the main page, before clicking "more inside," I said out loud to myself:

"Why would you do that to yourself?"

That still stands after reading the particulars. True friendship means that you can be a shoulder for him and he for you. That you can be happy for him if he's happy, no matter who he's with, and vice versa. You are both clearly confused, with feelings for one another, but he's either not interested or not in a place to be in a relationship with you.

You need to give it breathing room, for him to figure out what he wants, and for you to get some space to get over your feelings for him.

I've been in a similar situation before. You need to tell yourself, over and over again:

"I am not going to get what I want from this situation. I cannot control this person's emotions. I need to take care of myself and my own emotions. I need to get past this."

And then one more time:

"I am not going to get what I want."

It hurts, it's hard to look at the truth, full-focused, for even more than a second. Don't let yourself forget that you don't have control over his feelings and that you can't manifest the outcome you want by hoping, twisting or pining.

If he was really able to be your friend, he would hear what you've said, believe you, respect your feelings and respect your boundaries. He is not doing that -- it doesn't mean he's a bad person, but he sounds confused, and like he's not able to be a boyfriend or a friend right now.

I'm sorry. It's very hard. My heart goes out to you.
posted by pazazygeek at 11:44 AM on February 3, 2008 [5 favorites]

posted by filmgeek at 12:05 PM on February 3, 2008 [3 favorites]

You've had a big discussion about your feelings for each other, you've hooked up, and you're not dating. I don't think he's your best friend anymore; I think he's become your "ex". As a thought experiment, you might want to rephrase your question in your mind with "ex-boyfriend" replacing the phrase "best friend", and seeing if that gives you any insights.
posted by Greg Nog at 12:10 PM on February 3, 2008

I feel like we're all piling on you here, but this is something that happens a lot, and there really is no happy end waiting for you. Eventually he's either going to reconcile with his ex, or find someone who will replace her (him?). Either of these possibilities is going to destroy you emotionally.

Perhaps he can move on from his ex, but he's not going to do it with you there waiting in the wings. There's a lack of dignity, an unevenness to your relationship with your best friend. If he comes looking for you when he's dealt with his ex, that's one thing. But this isn't fair to you.

Has anyone got what they wanted romantically by waiting for it? I've never seen it.
posted by gesamtkunstwerk at 2:14 PM on February 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

I was in a similar situation about 12 years ago. I was best friends with this great girl, and we hooked up. Sort of. On and off. For two years. I kind of knew it would never work out, but lived in hope that it would.

It just fizzled out in the end. It wasn't a bad ending - it just stopped. But I didn't stop thinking about her and what could have been. Until one day I wasn't thinking about her.

Then, 5 years ago I met the most wonderful woman who I now live with. I fell in love with her first, and now we are best friends. And that horrible turmoil I suffered 12 years ago seems so irrelevant to me now.

Life is livable because love doesn't have to be for ever, but life without love isn't worth living.
posted by Elmore at 2:34 PM on February 3, 2008

I've been the guy in a very similar situation- long term, long distance relationship had just ended, and I started seeing someone else way too soon. Still quite in love with the ex. I ended things with the new girl because I realised this and knew it wasn't going to change. It was heartbreaking doing that to her.

And yes, we said we'll just be friends. Of course we'd still hang out! Even if it's just platonic, we don't want to lose this!

We did lose it. It was too intense, too big a step down to take comfortably. I think any positive outcome for you will still need some space and time first. Perhaps further down the track he'll have overcome all this stuff and be ready for a full on relationship with you, perhaps he wont. Neither option will have been helped by you seeing him, pining for him all the way along.

I think the healthiest thing to do would be to see him much less, do as much as you can to think of him as Not An Option, and perhaps see some other people (hopefully without putting them into the same position you're in). Speaking from his point of view, the ex isn't going to disappear anytime soon. Perhaps in a few years (where I'm at now) he'll have figured out what place she can play in his life without ruining other relationships, but he's definitely not there yet.
posted by twirlypen at 2:34 PM on February 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Sounds like he's already getting pretty much all the attention he wants. What incentive does he have to alter the arrangment?

You need a best friend that badly? Promote one from the second-tier instead.
posted by hermitosis at 2:48 PM on February 3, 2008

I've been there, pretty much exactly in your shoes. Those around me told me what the folks here are telling you now, to distance yourself from him. I didn't want to hear it, and ignored the advice. continued to be torturous to be around him. It took a therapist to tell me the same thing, in order for me to finally listen.

Our friendship is limited to very occasional emails these days. I am happy to have that. Maybe at some point it won't be like this, but he and I both know this is the way it has to be for now.
posted by medeine at 2:51 PM on February 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

One thing I also want to add... the guys that I've been in this situation with? The ones where I was so drawn to them and I kept thinking I couldn't live without them in my life so I twisted myself into knots trying to accomodate them and make excuses for them? After those relationships crashed and burned and time passed... those are the guys I look at now and I think, "Oh my God, what was I thinking? That guy is so not right for me. I deserved so much better than that!" One of them, a totally self-absorbed, delusionally arrogant loser who put me through absolute hell, well when I saw a recent photo of him I couldn't even find myself feeling an ounce of attraction. It was very confusing. Way back when, I had put him on such a pedestal in my heart... yet now when I look at him I don't really feel anything at all for this man in the photo. But the reason is... I WASN'T THINKING CLEARLY when I was with him. I was so caught up in the momentum and adrenaline, and it seemed very real at the time, but my brain and emotions weren't clear. He was WRONG for me.

That's why taking a break and walking away is so good. If you do that, catch your breath, and then come back to the person with you mind and heart in a better place? If you are still attracted to them then it very well might be real. The scary part of walking away is that you're taking a risk though because after you walk away you might find the relationship wasn't what you thought it was. You have to be brave and let it go. If the mutual feelings and attraction are still there for both of you when you revisit the relationship in the future, then it might very well be something that you can work towards together. And you SHOULD if it's possible. Otherwise, you're better off without it. Trust me.
posted by miss lynnster at 3:18 PM on February 3, 2008 [4 favorites]

This might depend on the extent to which you can accept that love comes in all kinds of different colours and flavours, and doesn't need to be squeezed into a one-size-fits-all model of monogamous sexual partnership.

If you can continue to feel & express (in whatever appropriate manner) your love for your friend, at the same time as remaining open to love others - including whatever potential sexual partners there might be out there for you - then I'd say you could safely stay put.

This doesn't mean you need to ignore your feelings, just that those feelings aren't necessarily going to give rise to a sexual sort of relationship. Any other kind or level of relationship & behaviour is up for negotiation between you, once you kill the notion that love should result in something resembling a Frankenstein's Monster of cliches cobbled together from womens' magazines, Hollywood & banal TV series.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:46 PM on February 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

Discloser. I once did the same thing as your best friend, and I still feel lousy about it 10 years later. My former best friend hates me now, which I think it's healthy. Anyway, she has moved on to someone else I like quite a bit, and she definitely deserves it. I wish I'd been called on my bad behavior before it was too late.

I know it sucks to be in your shoes, and I still feel remorse. Anyway, it means something to me to be honest. I hope there's someone great out there for you.
posted by gesamtkunstwerk at 7:02 PM on February 3, 2008

You're me a year ago. I went for it. It ended badly. He couldn't get over his ex. Still isn't over his ex. Had I the wisdom I have today I would have held off as long as it took for him to get over her. Entering into a relationship with someone who has feelings for someone else never ends well. I got trampled on, and it was pretty much my own fault. I was naive. If you go for it, good luck, but I really hope you wait.

Should you still hang out with him? If you want to. But if you think your feelings are going to fade, I have to tell you that they probably won't. It will get harder and harder. Take a break. He will understand.
posted by heavenstobetsy at 8:29 PM on February 3, 2008

Hang in there until you don't feel like you can take it anymore and then stop seeing him. You might get hurt. Since that comes along with the territory of being a human, its a good risk to take to see if your friendship lasts.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:42 PM on February 3, 2008

Okay, let's be realistic. From personal experience, I can pretty much guarantee... if the sexual tension between you and this guy is really strong the "platonic" friendship you are trying to procure very likely WON'T last. Not for the long term. If you do not pursue a romantic relationship then the only way your friendship will last is if you guys both really commit to get over the attraction. Because five, ten, twenty years from now, when this person is married to someone other than you and you are in a relationship with someone that isn't him, it simply won't be appropriate. Not if his wife or your husband or your kids have anything to say about it. Not if either of you take your commitments to your significant others seriously.

More than likely you will slowly drift apart with time. It's just how this stuff seems to work sometimes, unfortunately. If you're going for a long term close platonic friendship that lasts until old age with this guy I'm here to tell you that the odds aren't in your favor that you're going to have one. So please focus on taking care of yourself and your well being now.

There are men I absolutely adored in my twenties that I went to the ends of the earth to preserve friendships with despite our sexual tension. I always thought I was taking the high road, and I was determined we were going to be friends forever, playing with eachother's grandchildren. But at 41, I haven't heard from most of them in over a decade. Because that friendship was MY fantasy, NOT theirs. Only two of those friendships have lasted, and both of them are with men I wasn't attracted to. The men I actually had serious mutual attraction with are loooooong gone from my life, and I doubt their wives are very unhappy about that. So it's definitely best.

Yeah, growing up sucks sometimes. Sorry to say.
posted by miss lynnster at 9:15 PM on February 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

miss lynnster speaks the truth.

Unless there's somebody who's inexplicably hiding in a forgotten corner of my brain right now, every single one of my longer-term female friends (and I have bunches of them) is an ex-girlfriend, or at least there has been sexual contact between us at some point, if only once. Any strictly platonic female friends have always disappeared before more than a couple of years have passed, for one reason or another. It's almost as if you need to get the sexual tension resolved before you can go on to have a decent friendship* but maybe I'm straying off topic at this point.

* this rule doesn't apply to lesbians, for obvious reasons
posted by UbuRoivas at 10:16 PM on February 3, 2008

Yeah, see, I wish I'd have known that though. I wish someone had sat me down and told me this was how things work in reality. Because I tried SO HARD to not have sex with these guys to "preserve our friendship." And it was AWFUL!!!! So it sucks that the truth is I wasn't preserving it at all. I should've just either lightened up and gathered up the guts to see what was there on a deeper level or just cut the cord and moved on. All of those grandiose efforts I put in to do the "right" thing so I could keep a guy I cared about in my life, were... unfortunately... undeniably wasted. Because those particular guys are NOT in my life now. Not a one. I don't even have any clue where life has taken most of them. Those guys aren't my friends at all, they're just a memory now. And then I have to think, maybe they never really were my friends. Maybe those connections weren't about true friendship, they were all about hormones. And if that's all it was, they probably wouldn't have much to offer me as a platonic friend nowadays anyhow so I'm probably much better off.
posted by miss lynnster at 10:49 AM on February 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Moral of the story: I know it's hard to see things this way right now because the hormones & emotions are blinding you a bit. But just know that I feel your pain. Just know you'll be okay without him. Trust me.
posted by miss lynnster at 10:51 AM on February 4, 2008

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