How to save a creative partnership from a meddling third party?
January 4, 2008 7:21 AM Subscribe
My long-standing creative partner's fiancée is interfering with our relationship. Looking for strategies to keep our partnership and projects healthy despite her divisive influence.
"John" and I have been friends for fourteen years, and we're partners on several creative projects, including one in which exaggerated alter egos of us star. It's a bit like Penny Arcade in terms of the relationship between Jerry/Mike and Tycho/Gabe... in other words, not something that Jerry could walk off with and leave Mike behind. It's both of them, or it's over.
Unfortunately, my and John's relationship has gone totally downhill since he became involved with "Yoko". She seems determined to remove John's entire support system so that he's isolated and dependent on her, and she's doing a really good job.
I'm one of the last friends that John has left, and our projects are pretty much why. Yoko's been systematically getting John angry with everyone... including me... but unlike our other friends, who John's simply stopped talking to, he'll power through sore feelings at me to get a project done. Since Yoko's true power lies in getting people not to talk to each other, so that they never compare stories and realize that she exaggerated to create the problem between them, she's not had the same success with me and John.
However, it's become almost impossible to collaborate, because Yoko pwns all John's attempts to talk to me. If we're trying to work out a plotline over Instant Messenger, she nags him endlessly to get off the computer and do something else. If he and I meet at a coffeeshop to discuss things, she calls him constantly on his cell with manufactured problems he has to ignore me to deal with. When I invite them to parties, she fakes sick and needs him to stay home and take care of her.
Also, Yoko keeps injecting herself into our projects. She'll come up with a spectacularly unfunny joke or done-to-death plot, then pout at John until he pressures me to put it in. If I don't bubble over with love for the idea, John gets all pissy and defensive and pushy in a way that he never gets about his own suggestions... I'm guessing because he'll have to deal with Yoko's hurt feelings.
One of the running jokes of John's character is that he's a hapless serial womanizer; Yoko's offended by that, and wants to be written in as his permanent love interest. I'm very uncomfortable with the idea for several reasons. For starters, it removes a huge source of humor. More personally, every character is ruthlessly mocked for lulz... putting her in would put me in the position of having to make fun of her, which I strongly suspect would be a total minefield. We're having to be very, very careful about storylines so as not to offend her; we've already killed several long-planned arcs and played down important facets of the characters.
Between never getting to interact with John, having almost every funny idea vetoed by Yoko, and having to fend off crappy Yoko ideas (and fighting with John if I do), production has ground to a standstill. Our fans are complaining, our readership is plummeting, and it's gotten to the point that I'm so sick of it that I'm tempted to just call it quits and kill the projects before they can suck so hard they sully their own good name.
Hence my query to the hive mind... have any of you been in a similar situation that you resolved successfully, or do you think it's just time to declare this partnership DOA? Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
"John" and I have been friends for fourteen years, and we're partners on several creative projects, including one in which exaggerated alter egos of us star. It's a bit like Penny Arcade in terms of the relationship between Jerry/Mike and Tycho/Gabe... in other words, not something that Jerry could walk off with and leave Mike behind. It's both of them, or it's over.
Unfortunately, my and John's relationship has gone totally downhill since he became involved with "Yoko". She seems determined to remove John's entire support system so that he's isolated and dependent on her, and she's doing a really good job.
I'm one of the last friends that John has left, and our projects are pretty much why. Yoko's been systematically getting John angry with everyone... including me... but unlike our other friends, who John's simply stopped talking to, he'll power through sore feelings at me to get a project done. Since Yoko's true power lies in getting people not to talk to each other, so that they never compare stories and realize that she exaggerated to create the problem between them, she's not had the same success with me and John.
However, it's become almost impossible to collaborate, because Yoko pwns all John's attempts to talk to me. If we're trying to work out a plotline over Instant Messenger, she nags him endlessly to get off the computer and do something else. If he and I meet at a coffeeshop to discuss things, she calls him constantly on his cell with manufactured problems he has to ignore me to deal with. When I invite them to parties, she fakes sick and needs him to stay home and take care of her.
Also, Yoko keeps injecting herself into our projects. She'll come up with a spectacularly unfunny joke or done-to-death plot, then pout at John until he pressures me to put it in. If I don't bubble over with love for the idea, John gets all pissy and defensive and pushy in a way that he never gets about his own suggestions... I'm guessing because he'll have to deal with Yoko's hurt feelings.
One of the running jokes of John's character is that he's a hapless serial womanizer; Yoko's offended by that, and wants to be written in as his permanent love interest. I'm very uncomfortable with the idea for several reasons. For starters, it removes a huge source of humor. More personally, every character is ruthlessly mocked for lulz... putting her in would put me in the position of having to make fun of her, which I strongly suspect would be a total minefield. We're having to be very, very careful about storylines so as not to offend her; we've already killed several long-planned arcs and played down important facets of the characters.
Between never getting to interact with John, having almost every funny idea vetoed by Yoko, and having to fend off crappy Yoko ideas (and fighting with John if I do), production has ground to a standstill. Our fans are complaining, our readership is plummeting, and it's gotten to the point that I'm so sick of it that I'm tempted to just call it quits and kill the projects before they can suck so hard they sully their own good name.
Hence my query to the hive mind... have any of you been in a similar situation that you resolved successfully, or do you think it's just time to declare this partnership DOA? Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Have you talked to John about this and pointed out this problems? A "I need to talk to you alone" thing, where once alone you calmly ask him "What the fuck dude" type talk?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:33 AM on January 4, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:33 AM on January 4, 2008 [1 favorite]
I agree that you only hope is to talk directly with John. Saying nothing is leading to a breakup. This is not going to suddenly get better overnight unless Yoko is given the boot. Unlikely. So, sit John down and tell him the relationship is suffering from her interference, you want to continue it if she is not involved in the project. Do not tell him to dump her personally. If he agrees, great. If not, cut it while you can not when you have to.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 7:36 AM on January 4, 2008
posted by JohnnyGunn at 7:36 AM on January 4, 2008
Yes. Talking to John about what's going on is really, really important.
Not only that, but you've been friends for 14 years. Have you talked to him about the concerns about your friendship with him? It seems like that should be as important as your creative endeavors, and it seems to me that either one would be bad to just walk out on.
Finally, and my points don't make sense in any order because I just woke up, but are you sure you're viewing Yoko fairly? Is there a part of you that's jealous because your friend of so long suddenly has someone in his life that's now important to him? I don't doubt that she's manipulative or causing problems in some way, but we all have biases, and it might help the situation a bit if you could try and realize your own and how they influence your opinion of her.
Good luck.
posted by plaingurl at 7:37 AM on January 4, 2008
Not only that, but you've been friends for 14 years. Have you talked to him about the concerns about your friendship with him? It seems like that should be as important as your creative endeavors, and it seems to me that either one would be bad to just walk out on.
Finally, and my points don't make sense in any order because I just woke up, but are you sure you're viewing Yoko fairly? Is there a part of you that's jealous because your friend of so long suddenly has someone in his life that's now important to him? I don't doubt that she's manipulative or causing problems in some way, but we all have biases, and it might help the situation a bit if you could try and realize your own and how they influence your opinion of her.
Good luck.
posted by plaingurl at 7:37 AM on January 4, 2008
This is personal. But you have to approach it as if it's all about business. What you two do together is sort of like a business, and therefore your concerns are legitimate.
You need to let him know. Sit him down and explain that you know it's a touchy subject in his personal life, but this is business and you have to discuss where things are going, because of the changes being introduced by Yoko.
Fair game for you to discuss:
1. The need for time to rehearse/collaborate without interruptions or interference
2. The ability to make the final decision about any of Yoko's ideas when she's not around, so you can both speak freely without hurting her feelings
3. The longer term arc of where the characters are headed, and whether Yoko's involvement is really helpful or appropriate
Not fair game:
1. Everything else, unless you want to have an entirely different kind of conversation. Besides, chances are she's preparing him for your backlash against "them" so that will play right into her plot.
If you can work together well and restore your verve, he'll probably be more open to hearing what else is on your mind as it becomes appropriate to share it. For now, though, as long as the above concerns are taken care of, then his life is his own to spend on whatever scheming little vixen he wants.
posted by hermitosis at 7:53 AM on January 4, 2008 [2 favorites]
You need to let him know. Sit him down and explain that you know it's a touchy subject in his personal life, but this is business and you have to discuss where things are going, because of the changes being introduced by Yoko.
Fair game for you to discuss:
1. The need for time to rehearse/collaborate without interruptions or interference
2. The ability to make the final decision about any of Yoko's ideas when she's not around, so you can both speak freely without hurting her feelings
3. The longer term arc of where the characters are headed, and whether Yoko's involvement is really helpful or appropriate
Not fair game:
1. Everything else, unless you want to have an entirely different kind of conversation. Besides, chances are she's preparing him for your backlash against "them" so that will play right into her plot.
If you can work together well and restore your verve, he'll probably be more open to hearing what else is on your mind as it becomes appropriate to share it. For now, though, as long as the above concerns are taken care of, then his life is his own to spend on whatever scheming little vixen he wants.
posted by hermitosis at 7:53 AM on January 4, 2008 [2 favorites]
Do not tell him to dump her personally.
Cannot be stressed enough.
Also, when (not if) you talk with John, make it clear that you really value him as a close, longtime friend, and that you need his time uninterrupted at least this once. If she calls during your talk, tell him not to answer; she can leave a voicemail like the rest of the modern world has learned to do. If he can't restrain himself for this brief period, take it as a sign that your artistic relationship, if not your personal one, is over, at least for a while. Sometimes things happen that are out of your control.
Finally, consider that no matter how you feel about Yoko, some of her specific concerns regarding your comic and how John is portrayed may not be unjustified. Her proposed solution of literally inserting herself into your work is completely wrongheaded, but I can totally understand not wanting to see your b/f portraying himself as an ongoing womanizer, even as a joke.
posted by mkultra at 7:54 AM on January 4, 2008
Cannot be stressed enough.
Also, when (not if) you talk with John, make it clear that you really value him as a close, longtime friend, and that you need his time uninterrupted at least this once. If she calls during your talk, tell him not to answer; she can leave a voicemail like the rest of the modern world has learned to do. If he can't restrain himself for this brief period, take it as a sign that your artistic relationship, if not your personal one, is over, at least for a while. Sometimes things happen that are out of your control.
Finally, consider that no matter how you feel about Yoko, some of her specific concerns regarding your comic and how John is portrayed may not be unjustified. Her proposed solution of literally inserting herself into your work is completely wrongheaded, but I can totally understand not wanting to see your b/f portraying himself as an ongoing womanizer, even as a joke.
posted by mkultra at 7:54 AM on January 4, 2008
Dude(tte), go get coffee with him and ask him to just turn off his cellphone. Do you two not live near each other or something?
posted by rhizome at 8:10 AM on January 4, 2008
posted by rhizome at 8:10 AM on January 4, 2008
Find a place to meet that has bad cellphone reception. If you were in Pittsburgh, I would suggest the Tic-Toc cafe, where I can never get any signal. Mention that this is the case to your partner or not.
Then talk without interruption.
posted by that girl at 8:27 AM on January 4, 2008
Then talk without interruption.
posted by that girl at 8:27 AM on January 4, 2008
What hermitosis said. It's important that you avoid personal attacks on Yoko, so that you don't appear jealous. Keep it all business. But in the end, if he's insistent on letting her interfere with the creative process, you're going to have to break it off.
Good luck!
posted by Koko at 8:33 AM on January 4, 2008
Good luck!
posted by Koko at 8:33 AM on January 4, 2008
He's going to be defensive about his girlfriend. The more he actually resents her attempt to steer the comic, the more defensive he's going to be. Criticizing her influence is a nasty minefield. Outright accusing her of preventing him from having friends will be lethal. If you take this tack, you'll be lucky if you only get a few limbs blown off.
Make it all about him. Don't even bring her up. It is all about him -- he's the one responsible for the care and feeding of his friendship and creative partnership with you. If he invokes the name of Yoko, point out that the subject at hand is him-and-you, not her.
In fact, swallow your pride and be gracious on anything subject involving Yoko. You must be able to imagine a situation in which you would put a girlfriend above your friendship or creative partnership. Your analysis of Yoko and her actions is okay from a venting perspective, but it wouldn't hold up under cross-examination.
Your concern about not wanting to subject the character of his girlfriend for mockery is a terrific example of a thoughtful point. But what's your alternative? Your lives have changed somewhat, and you two need to find a way to be flexible in your friendship and partnership if it's going to not crack under the strain.
posted by desuetude at 8:43 AM on January 4, 2008
Make it all about him. Don't even bring her up. It is all about him -- he's the one responsible for the care and feeding of his friendship and creative partnership with you. If he invokes the name of Yoko, point out that the subject at hand is him-and-you, not her.
In fact, swallow your pride and be gracious on anything subject involving Yoko. You must be able to imagine a situation in which you would put a girlfriend above your friendship or creative partnership. Your analysis of Yoko and her actions is okay from a venting perspective, but it wouldn't hold up under cross-examination.
Your concern about not wanting to subject the character of his girlfriend for mockery is a terrific example of a thoughtful point. But what's your alternative? Your lives have changed somewhat, and you two need to find a way to be flexible in your friendship and partnership if it's going to not crack under the strain.
posted by desuetude at 8:43 AM on January 4, 2008
P.S. Consider adapting this situation into the storyline.
posted by desuetude at 8:45 AM on January 4, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by desuetude at 8:45 AM on January 4, 2008 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I abridged a lot of things out of my question trying to keep it as on-topic as I could, but the answers so far showed me that I left out some things that are important.
Yoko has been John's "carrot on a stick" for years. He's not just in love with her, he's become obsessed with having her, if only to justify all the crap he's already gone through and the things he's given up.
And for years, he couldn't have her. Yoko is a user, the XX version of the classic "bad boy". She said she loved him, but she refused to commit to him until he did [this]. Once he did that, then she'd need him to change something else... a neverending trail of bread crumbs. Basically, the only way she'd see him was if he drove the two hours to see her, took her out, paid for everything, bought her expensive presents, got them a hotel room, and then buggered off when she was done with him.
She was balancing several people this way, including her ex-husband "Mike", who she set up to John as the Big Bad Wolf. Mike was still desperately in love with her and was following a more expensive trail of bread crumbs trying to get her back. She set John and Mike up in competition, making them hate each other (they used to be good friends), and playing them off each other, trying to outdo each other in order to win her.
I've spent years having John sob on me because of the latest horrible thing she did to him, way she led him on and brutally let him down, etc. So yes, I loathe her, and I'm absolutely on record as loathing her, which damages my credibility a lot now.
Two things happened to Yoko this fall: one, she had an accident that meant she was sitting at her parents' house bored and recuperating, unable to go anywhere, instead of living the high life. Two, Mike finally told her off, got engaged to someone else, and stopped financing that high life. It was right about then that Yoko had her "sudden epiphany" that she belonged with John after all, at which he bellowed Hallelujah and proposed instantly.
John still lives in fear of losing Yoko, though. She may have lost Mike as a bargaining chip, but she's set up a new competition between John and a new Big Bad Wolf.
So John won't do anything to piss her off, even simple things like not answering or turning off his cellphone. He lives on a knife's edge with her; recently, he made a gentle joke about her mother, and Yoko wouldn't talk to him for a week. John ended up groveling for her to forgive him. I could give you a ton more examples.
She's so all-consumingly important to him, it's almost religious. Some of you guys pointed out that I seem more concerned about the working relationship than the friendship... and that's mostly because the friendship's pretty much destroyed. John has hurt me and let me down so many times in his single-minded pursuit of Yoko that I know better than to depend on him at a personal level.
posted by Gianna at 8:49 AM on January 4, 2008
Yoko has been John's "carrot on a stick" for years. He's not just in love with her, he's become obsessed with having her, if only to justify all the crap he's already gone through and the things he's given up.
And for years, he couldn't have her. Yoko is a user, the XX version of the classic "bad boy". She said she loved him, but she refused to commit to him until he did [this]. Once he did that, then she'd need him to change something else... a neverending trail of bread crumbs. Basically, the only way she'd see him was if he drove the two hours to see her, took her out, paid for everything, bought her expensive presents, got them a hotel room, and then buggered off when she was done with him.
She was balancing several people this way, including her ex-husband "Mike", who she set up to John as the Big Bad Wolf. Mike was still desperately in love with her and was following a more expensive trail of bread crumbs trying to get her back. She set John and Mike up in competition, making them hate each other (they used to be good friends), and playing them off each other, trying to outdo each other in order to win her.
I've spent years having John sob on me because of the latest horrible thing she did to him, way she led him on and brutally let him down, etc. So yes, I loathe her, and I'm absolutely on record as loathing her, which damages my credibility a lot now.
Two things happened to Yoko this fall: one, she had an accident that meant she was sitting at her parents' house bored and recuperating, unable to go anywhere, instead of living the high life. Two, Mike finally told her off, got engaged to someone else, and stopped financing that high life. It was right about then that Yoko had her "sudden epiphany" that she belonged with John after all, at which he bellowed Hallelujah and proposed instantly.
John still lives in fear of losing Yoko, though. She may have lost Mike as a bargaining chip, but she's set up a new competition between John and a new Big Bad Wolf.
So John won't do anything to piss her off, even simple things like not answering or turning off his cellphone. He lives on a knife's edge with her; recently, he made a gentle joke about her mother, and Yoko wouldn't talk to him for a week. John ended up groveling for her to forgive him. I could give you a ton more examples.
She's so all-consumingly important to him, it's almost religious. Some of you guys pointed out that I seem more concerned about the working relationship than the friendship... and that's mostly because the friendship's pretty much destroyed. John has hurt me and let me down so many times in his single-minded pursuit of Yoko that I know better than to depend on him at a personal level.
posted by Gianna at 8:49 AM on January 4, 2008
I would start grooming a John replacement. Yoko obviously wants to win and she's going to. If she truly wants to break up your relationship because she considers it a threat to her, she will succeed. Talking to him might postpone things, but if you win this battle and things improve, I can pretty much guarantee Yoko will lie low for about a month and then come back with a vengeance like you have never seen before in your life. My only advice is when talking to him is to try and leave her name out of it as much as possible. Frame everything in terms of what he has been doing and try to pretend like she has nothing to do with it. (He's introducing bad jokes/storylines and then can't let them go, he never has time to work, he never gives you his full attention, don't add in because Yoko always is calling you.) Good luck!
posted by whoaali at 8:50 AM on January 4, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by whoaali at 8:50 AM on January 4, 2008 [2 favorites]
My suggestion:
1) plan for your life, post-John
2) have the Serious Discussion, making sure to keep Yoko out of it. Don't even say the word "her".
3) When/if things turn bad again, have another Serious Discussion, but this time play the trump card: "I'm not sure this is going to work out any more. Maybe we should just quit." Once again, do not mention her. Don't even imply she exists.
4) John will panic and see the light, or not. If not, initiate the plan created in Step One.
5) Once she finally dumps John, he may latch on to your projects and come running back. How you proceed then depends on what kind of person you are, so I have no recommendations on that.
I'm not optimistic, personally. He's probably set her up as his one single chance for happiness in life, so he'll do anything for her. Everything else is miserable gray-rain unhappy suckage, even you. Not that he sees you as a negative force, exactly, but he probably puts you as standing out in that miserable gray rain. For example, if she yells at him because he's trying to pay attention to your projects, he'll blame you. Not her. He has to keep her as perfect, because if she isn't then that would mean everything is miserable gray rain, which he just can't allow.
Mind, I've only known one guy in this type of situation, but he had to hit rock bottom before he was willing to admit he'd been wrong. Sort of like a depressed alcoholic, now that I think of it.
posted by aramaic at 9:11 AM on January 4, 2008 [3 favorites]
1) plan for your life, post-John
2) have the Serious Discussion, making sure to keep Yoko out of it. Don't even say the word "her".
3) When/if things turn bad again, have another Serious Discussion, but this time play the trump card: "I'm not sure this is going to work out any more. Maybe we should just quit." Once again, do not mention her. Don't even imply she exists.
4) John will panic and see the light, or not. If not, initiate the plan created in Step One.
5) Once she finally dumps John, he may latch on to your projects and come running back. How you proceed then depends on what kind of person you are, so I have no recommendations on that.
I'm not optimistic, personally. He's probably set her up as his one single chance for happiness in life, so he'll do anything for her. Everything else is miserable gray-rain unhappy suckage, even you. Not that he sees you as a negative force, exactly, but he probably puts you as standing out in that miserable gray rain. For example, if she yells at him because he's trying to pay attention to your projects, he'll blame you. Not her. He has to keep her as perfect, because if she isn't then that would mean everything is miserable gray rain, which he just can't allow.
Mind, I've only known one guy in this type of situation, but he had to hit rock bottom before he was willing to admit he'd been wrong. Sort of like a depressed alcoholic, now that I think of it.
posted by aramaic at 9:11 AM on January 4, 2008 [3 favorites]
Write John a long letter/e-mail. Go over all the harsh stuff you've mentioned here, and all the stuff you haven't. Lead in by saying that you realize you're treading on thin ice with all this stuff, that you feel your friendship with him is already in jeopardy and this may be too much, but that you feel extraordinary measures are necessary. Conclude by inviting him to get together for coffee to discuss all this. Put the letter away for a day or two and then edit it and send it.
It's possible this letter will be the thing that pushes John away, and you need to be prepared for that, but you clearly need to get this off your chest, and it may salvage your friendship with him. I think it's more likely to help than hurt.
posted by adamrice at 9:24 AM on January 4, 2008 [1 favorite]
It's possible this letter will be the thing that pushes John away, and you need to be prepared for that, but you clearly need to get this off your chest, and it may salvage your friendship with him. I think it's more likely to help than hurt.
posted by adamrice at 9:24 AM on January 4, 2008 [1 favorite]
Lot's of good advice. But also, all good things come to an end.
posted by londongeezer at 9:31 AM on January 4, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by londongeezer at 9:31 AM on January 4, 2008 [1 favorite]
Some people are jerks in relationships. They get tunnel vision and sacrifice their friendships through neglect or overprotectiveness/defensiveness or just becoming self-absorbed and unbalanced. Sometimes it's salvageable by giving them a little "hey, you're being a jerk and alienating your friends" heads-up -- but it sounds to me like John is waaaaaaay beyond that. Everything you've described here sounds thoroughly unpleasant and it doesn't sound like it'll be salvageable until she's out of his life. (Assuming he was an alright person to begin with, which seems hard to believe, because he sounds like a straight-up douche.) I guess what I'm saying is that I would move on. Just wash my hands of it, not make it vindictive or nasty.
One thing, though -- beware of making a lot of assumptions about what goes on between them. (The "faking sick" business, stuff like that.) You can't truly know what goes on between two people behind closed doors. Act on what you see and feel, not what you've assumed. And don't give her so much credit -- he's a grown-up, and he can make his own decisions. It's tempting to think of him as her puppet, I'm sure, but he is responsible for his own actions.
posted by loiseau at 9:31 AM on January 4, 2008 [1 favorite]
One thing, though -- beware of making a lot of assumptions about what goes on between them. (The "faking sick" business, stuff like that.) You can't truly know what goes on between two people behind closed doors. Act on what you see and feel, not what you've assumed. And don't give her so much credit -- he's a grown-up, and he can make his own decisions. It's tempting to think of him as her puppet, I'm sure, but he is responsible for his own actions.
posted by loiseau at 9:31 AM on January 4, 2008 [1 favorite]
Second adamrice on the letter - and on saying what you're really thinking.
Also, sounds like if he stays with her, you're losing him anyway. So you can lose him and have spoken up, or lose him without speaking up.
posted by quinoa at 9:37 AM on January 4, 2008
Also, sounds like if he stays with her, you're losing him anyway. So you can lose him and have spoken up, or lose him without speaking up.
posted by quinoa at 9:37 AM on January 4, 2008
I'd go ahead and find another business partner, pronto. This guy is whipped. He will just have to deal with the consequenxes.
Meanwhile, you don't need all this stress.
posted by konolia at 9:47 AM on January 4, 2008
Meanwhile, you don't need all this stress.
posted by konolia at 9:47 AM on January 4, 2008
You can't live someone else's life for them, and John wants to have this kind of dysfunction for some reason that is greater than you. Let him and don't go there with him.
As has been said already, the writing is on the wall. You should start progressing beyond this so at least you have some control during the fallout. It would suck to have it end abruptly and you to have no backup plan.
Phasing John out of the project may actually even be fodder for your story line. Everyone loves a good cliff-hanger....
posted by qwip at 10:01 AM on January 4, 2008
As has been said already, the writing is on the wall. You should start progressing beyond this so at least you have some control during the fallout. It would suck to have it end abruptly and you to have no backup plan.
Phasing John out of the project may actually even be fodder for your story line. Everyone loves a good cliff-hanger....
posted by qwip at 10:01 AM on January 4, 2008
Cut and run. Essentially you're creatively involved with her and not him. He obviously wants this. He could ask your help to find a way around her... but this is what he wants. He clearly cannot separate work and home (to an increasing extent) and there's nothing you can do - if this is how he wants it.
If he allows her to inflict misery upon him - sounds like it's going quite well, good for them. If You want this blight to spread into Your life... sounds like it's coming along quite nicely. ...good for you?? ..I guess??
posted by mu~ha~ha~ha~har at 10:02 AM on January 4, 2008
If he allows her to inflict misery upon him - sounds like it's going quite well, good for them. If You want this blight to spread into Your life... sounds like it's coming along quite nicely. ...good for you?? ..I guess??
posted by mu~ha~ha~ha~har at 10:02 AM on January 4, 2008
You may find the advice in this comment helpful (and maybe that whole thread in general?). I agree with other posters that, if you want this creative partnership to continue, it's in your best interest to keep Yoko out of the conversation. But the advice given in that comment may still help you deal with John in general.
posted by Ms. Saint at 10:24 AM on January 4, 2008
posted by Ms. Saint at 10:24 AM on January 4, 2008
Response by poster: Wow, Ms. Saint, that was a really awesome link. I feel like I should print that out and hang it on my wall next to the computer.
posted by Gianna at 10:28 AM on January 4, 2008
posted by Gianna at 10:28 AM on January 4, 2008
Going with your John/Yoko metaphor, one thing to remember is that while people blame her, Yoko didn't have the power to break up the Beatles. They did that on their own. If your John makes the choice to center his life around this manipulative person, he's the one finally responsible for his own actions.
I think that he's going to choose Yoko. I think you should start preparing now for your partnership's eventual end. John has chosen to sublimate his entire personality to Yoko, and I don't see any evidence that he's going to see the light any time soon. I definitely think you should sit him down alone and give him a letter saying, in as gentle a way as possible, how much you value your friendship and want to improve it. But, in the end, I think Yoko's going to win, so you need to start thinking now about what it will be like when your friendship and partnership with John comes to an end, and preparing yourself practically and emotionally.
posted by lemuria at 10:28 AM on January 4, 2008
I think that he's going to choose Yoko. I think you should start preparing now for your partnership's eventual end. John has chosen to sublimate his entire personality to Yoko, and I don't see any evidence that he's going to see the light any time soon. I definitely think you should sit him down alone and give him a letter saying, in as gentle a way as possible, how much you value your friendship and want to improve it. But, in the end, I think Yoko's going to win, so you need to start thinking now about what it will be like when your friendship and partnership with John comes to an end, and preparing yourself practically and emotionally.
posted by lemuria at 10:28 AM on January 4, 2008
First, he's only been with her for a few months? Any chance that this might smooth out after he's been dating his love goddess for more than a few months?
From your extended description, I can't imagine a scenario in which this will end up working out. I agree with previous posters and think you should write a long, thoughtful letter attempting to be as honest as possible while avoiding some of the subjects that may just get you off-track.
For example, if you characterize "Yoko" in some of the ways you have in this thread, he might not be able to concentrate on the meat of the matter (e.g. that you're on the brink of ending your professional relationship with him and finding a new collaborator) and instead be stuck defending Yoko, attacking you, etc.
Furthermore, I'd suggest you do this in person. Tell him you've had some lingering concerns with your professional relationship and you need to have an in-person conversation, soon. Give him the letter. Ask him to read it and either leave or sit there while he reads it. Real paper makes it more "real" than an email and decreases the chances of an intercept by Yoko. When he finishes reading it, quietly tell him again that you really value your professional relationship, and that it will be an enormous loss for you professionally, but you need to think seriously about finding a new collaborator. I'd suggest leaving at that point to give him some time to think, or just telling him that you're going to go get a bagel- if he wants to talk, he can find you across the street in the bagel shop. Anticipate that this will be the end, at least for now, and begin developing a game plan for getting your professional career back on track without John.
Good luck, and sorry about the loss of your friend and partner.
posted by arnicae at 10:33 AM on January 4, 2008 [1 favorite]
From your extended description, I can't imagine a scenario in which this will end up working out. I agree with previous posters and think you should write a long, thoughtful letter attempting to be as honest as possible while avoiding some of the subjects that may just get you off-track.
For example, if you characterize "Yoko" in some of the ways you have in this thread, he might not be able to concentrate on the meat of the matter (e.g. that you're on the brink of ending your professional relationship with him and finding a new collaborator) and instead be stuck defending Yoko, attacking you, etc.
Furthermore, I'd suggest you do this in person. Tell him you've had some lingering concerns with your professional relationship and you need to have an in-person conversation, soon. Give him the letter. Ask him to read it and either leave or sit there while he reads it. Real paper makes it more "real" than an email and decreases the chances of an intercept by Yoko. When he finishes reading it, quietly tell him again that you really value your professional relationship, and that it will be an enormous loss for you professionally, but you need to think seriously about finding a new collaborator. I'd suggest leaving at that point to give him some time to think, or just telling him that you're going to go get a bagel- if he wants to talk, he can find you across the street in the bagel shop. Anticipate that this will be the end, at least for now, and begin developing a game plan for getting your professional career back on track without John.
Good luck, and sorry about the loss of your friend and partner.
posted by arnicae at 10:33 AM on January 4, 2008 [1 favorite]
It does seem like the overwhelmingly likely outcomes are his relationship will end or your partnership will. She's not going to change and you're probably not going to be able to affect her influence on him.
So you have nothing to lose telling him, at the very least, that you won't accept her influence on your creative partnership, and if he won't keep her influence out of it, you should wrap up the partnership and try to end the narrative in a satisfying manner. As others have said he'll probably choose her. Things change.
posted by nanojath at 11:17 AM on January 4, 2008
So you have nothing to lose telling him, at the very least, that you won't accept her influence on your creative partnership, and if he won't keep her influence out of it, you should wrap up the partnership and try to end the narrative in a satisfying manner. As others have said he'll probably choose her. Things change.
posted by nanojath at 11:17 AM on January 4, 2008
I'd vote no on a letter, incidentally. First, it's impersonal as hell, second, it's something she can get hold of and use for further manipulation. Somehow get him alone for a solo conversation.
posted by nanojath at 11:22 AM on January 4, 2008
posted by nanojath at 11:22 AM on January 4, 2008
I agree with the no letter sentiment, but you may want to write something for yourself, so that you don't get caught up in the emotions of everything and forget some point you want to make. Good luck.
posted by kellyblah at 12:06 PM on January 4, 2008
posted by kellyblah at 12:06 PM on January 4, 2008
Have you sat down and calculated what your part of the business is worth to you? I know people here are saying "get ready to end it," but one of the things you'll need to do if that happens is get with a lawyer, I presume, and draw up legal papers for either selling your half of the partnership to him outright or offering him some kind of buyout. One of the things you probably need to do is decide whether you'd prefer to continue the creative endeavor with another partner, or give up on the project outright and sell your rights/usage to him.
I'm not sure exactly how this would work, but if you get ready to have the "final talk" with him, you probably need to show him you're serious by having some kind of business proposal on the table. You don't want Yoko to see dollar signs and demand that he ask you for X amount of dollars or whatever for severing the partnership; have something ready beforehand so that the business being dissolved doesn't become another bargaining chip. She's manipulated you both enough already, so try to take that part of the discussion by the reins.
It should also show John that you are willing to let the relationship completely go; it may give him pause in his current course of actions, but more likely, you will be the one friend that gets a phone call sometime in the future when he and she split up. Best of luck to you.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 1:24 PM on January 4, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure exactly how this would work, but if you get ready to have the "final talk" with him, you probably need to show him you're serious by having some kind of business proposal on the table. You don't want Yoko to see dollar signs and demand that he ask you for X amount of dollars or whatever for severing the partnership; have something ready beforehand so that the business being dissolved doesn't become another bargaining chip. She's manipulated you both enough already, so try to take that part of the discussion by the reins.
It should also show John that you are willing to let the relationship completely go; it may give him pause in his current course of actions, but more likely, you will be the one friend that gets a phone call sometime in the future when he and she split up. Best of luck to you.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 1:24 PM on January 4, 2008 [1 favorite]
If you give up on John, Yoko wins. And she'll destroy him, trying to turn him into what she wants. While she may eventually leave him, he'll need someone to put him back together.
Put Yoko in the strip. Make her the exception to the rule about how you use others for laughs. Make her the new straight man. And definitely make fun how the womanizer John has been tamed. Insisting on becoming part of the strip was her trying to separate you two. Putting her in may turn the tables, she may wind up realizing she needs you to work with John.
When Yoko suggests a done-to-death plot, figure out a twist that can salvage it. If it's a bad joke, have your toon make <>
But you might want to start looking into separate future projects.
posted by Kioki-Silver at 1:31 PM on January 4, 2008
Put Yoko in the strip. Make her the exception to the rule about how you use others for laughs. Make her the new straight man. And definitely make fun how the womanizer John has been tamed. Insisting on becoming part of the strip was her trying to separate you two. Putting her in may turn the tables, she may wind up realizing she needs you to work with John.
When Yoko suggests a done-to-death plot, figure out a twist that can salvage it. If it's a bad joke, have your toon make <>
But you might want to start looking into separate future projects.
posted by Kioki-Silver at 1:31 PM on January 4, 2008
You're fucked.
The only way the situation is salvageable is if John wakes up tomorrow and realizes what kind of relationship he has with Yoko and what impact it has had his friendships and other relationships. He may indeed have that realization some day but it almost certainly won't be before your partnership and project have ended. And I know that we've just gotten a one-sided account of the situation but your feelings are so strong that that doesn't particularly matter.
Also, I'm guessing your username indicates you're a woman.
If so, you're doubly-fucked.
Yoko, as you've described her, will not stand for John having a significant relationship of any sort with another woman, not even his mother or sister.
I doubt talking to John will help. If you're smart you keep Yoko out of the discussion about your project but then John won't be aware of what the real problem is. And if he becomes aware that the probablem specifically relates to Yoko he'll resent you. Even if you once had the type of relationship where you could tell each other your SO is a **** he is now too far gone.
There's a reason why unhealthy relationships of any sort are extremely difficult to become involved in from the outside. You tell them what sort of person they're with and they resent you and stay together. They break up and they resent you because you were right. You say nothing and they resent you for "letting" them become involved with such a person. If there were easy answers no one would ever be in an abusive relationship, at least not for longer than a month or two.
Sorry to be all doom-and-gloom but I think you should prepare for the inevitable.
posted by 6550 at 1:33 PM on January 4, 2008
The only way the situation is salvageable is if John wakes up tomorrow and realizes what kind of relationship he has with Yoko and what impact it has had his friendships and other relationships. He may indeed have that realization some day but it almost certainly won't be before your partnership and project have ended. And I know that we've just gotten a one-sided account of the situation but your feelings are so strong that that doesn't particularly matter.
Also, I'm guessing your username indicates you're a woman.
If so, you're doubly-fucked.
Yoko, as you've described her, will not stand for John having a significant relationship of any sort with another woman, not even his mother or sister.
I doubt talking to John will help. If you're smart you keep Yoko out of the discussion about your project but then John won't be aware of what the real problem is. And if he becomes aware that the probablem specifically relates to Yoko he'll resent you. Even if you once had the type of relationship where you could tell each other your SO is a **** he is now too far gone.
There's a reason why unhealthy relationships of any sort are extremely difficult to become involved in from the outside. You tell them what sort of person they're with and they resent you and stay together. They break up and they resent you because you were right. You say nothing and they resent you for "letting" them become involved with such a person. If there were easy answers no one would ever be in an abusive relationship, at least not for longer than a month or two.
Sorry to be all doom-and-gloom but I think you should prepare for the inevitable.
posted by 6550 at 1:33 PM on January 4, 2008
I realize you want to keep your anonymity, but I sure wish I could see the creative projects you've been working on together. And, I'd love to know the end result of this current dilemma. Please post again if there's some kind of outcome (for better or worse).
posted by revmitcz at 2:02 PM on January 4, 2008
posted by revmitcz at 2:02 PM on January 4, 2008
Try to break up John and Yoko.
posted by davidstandaford at 3:45 PM on January 4, 2008
posted by davidstandaford at 3:45 PM on January 4, 2008
Response by poster: Everything else is miserable gray-rain unhappy suckage... sort of like a depressed alcoholic...
Whoa. Do you know him?
Actually, yes, he has been in a major depression for the past four years, and everything is gray-rain unhappy suckage. He's also drinking ever-more-heavily, which he never used to do.
I actually kind of blame the depression for him getting interested in Yoko. Back when John was healthy and happy, he used to laugh about what a game-playing narcissist Yoko was and expressed his sympathy for Mike because he was married to her.
First, he's only been with her for a few months? Any chance that this might smooth out after he's been dating his love goddess for more than a few months?
Possibly? He's not completely blind to her behavior. Several times before Yoko's "epiphany", John announced that she was toxic for him and that the only way he was going to get his sanity back was to cut her out of his life completely. But every time he did, Yoko had some crisis and called him for help and got back in. If he's trapped in a house with her instead of chasing her in another city, his fed-up levels might rise past the sticking point.
He sounds like a straight-up douche.
He's not, I swear. He was pretty much Captain Awesome, Coolest Dude In The Universe until he got so depressed and self-destructive.
It's tempting to think of him as her puppet, I'm sure, but he is responsible for his own actions.
Yeah... I realize. I have a hard time putting the anger on him because I used to date a "Yoko" myself and remember how badly it scrambled my brain... and how I did a lot of the same things that John's now doing without realizing how badly I was screwing over myself and my friends.
Have you sat down and calculated what your part of the business is worth to you?
Fortunately for the lack of legal entanglements, these projects are hobbies for both of us. We recently got an offer for an official partnership that would cause us to get paid, but neither one of us felt comfortable agreeing to a rigorous production schedule when we're currently so slow.
Put Yoko in the strip. Make her the exception to the rule about how you use others for laughs. Make her the new straight man. And definitely make fun how the womanizer John has been tamed.
That's really interesting. I wonder if I could make her character so popular and beloved that Yoko becomes a huge fan and can't wait for the next installment? Hmm...
Try to break up John and Yoko.
You know, I could, and maybe that would ultimately be the nicest thing I could possibly do in this situation. I just don't think I could look myself in the mirror in the morning if I'd been as devious as that would require.
You're fucked.
I tend to agree, but there have been a lot of really great suggestions in this thread that I'd like to try before I bow out completely. Thanks to everyone who replied!
posted by Gianna at 4:09 PM on January 4, 2008
Whoa. Do you know him?
Actually, yes, he has been in a major depression for the past four years, and everything is gray-rain unhappy suckage. He's also drinking ever-more-heavily, which he never used to do.
I actually kind of blame the depression for him getting interested in Yoko. Back when John was healthy and happy, he used to laugh about what a game-playing narcissist Yoko was and expressed his sympathy for Mike because he was married to her.
First, he's only been with her for a few months? Any chance that this might smooth out after he's been dating his love goddess for more than a few months?
Possibly? He's not completely blind to her behavior. Several times before Yoko's "epiphany", John announced that she was toxic for him and that the only way he was going to get his sanity back was to cut her out of his life completely. But every time he did, Yoko had some crisis and called him for help and got back in. If he's trapped in a house with her instead of chasing her in another city, his fed-up levels might rise past the sticking point.
He sounds like a straight-up douche.
He's not, I swear. He was pretty much Captain Awesome, Coolest Dude In The Universe until he got so depressed and self-destructive.
It's tempting to think of him as her puppet, I'm sure, but he is responsible for his own actions.
Yeah... I realize. I have a hard time putting the anger on him because I used to date a "Yoko" myself and remember how badly it scrambled my brain... and how I did a lot of the same things that John's now doing without realizing how badly I was screwing over myself and my friends.
Have you sat down and calculated what your part of the business is worth to you?
Fortunately for the lack of legal entanglements, these projects are hobbies for both of us. We recently got an offer for an official partnership that would cause us to get paid, but neither one of us felt comfortable agreeing to a rigorous production schedule when we're currently so slow.
Put Yoko in the strip. Make her the exception to the rule about how you use others for laughs. Make her the new straight man. And definitely make fun how the womanizer John has been tamed.
That's really interesting. I wonder if I could make her character so popular and beloved that Yoko becomes a huge fan and can't wait for the next installment? Hmm...
Try to break up John and Yoko.
You know, I could, and maybe that would ultimately be the nicest thing I could possibly do in this situation. I just don't think I could look myself in the mirror in the morning if I'd been as devious as that would require.
You're fucked.
I tend to agree, but there have been a lot of really great suggestions in this thread that I'd like to try before I bow out completely. Thanks to everyone who replied!
posted by Gianna at 4:09 PM on January 4, 2008
I used to date a "Yoko" myself and remember how badly it scrambled my brain... and how I did a lot of the same things that John's now doing without realizing how badly I was screwing over myself and my friends.
What helped you get out of that relationship and make that realization? If you've had that experience, you may be able to draw on it in this situation.
posted by occhiblu at 5:27 PM on January 4, 2008
What helped you get out of that relationship and make that realization? If you've had that experience, you may be able to draw on it in this situation.
posted by occhiblu at 5:27 PM on January 4, 2008
Hmm. This is a really interesting question. It sounds like a really hard situation for you.
I like hermitosis's idea about the all-business conversation. I'd vote against any "here are all my thoughts on this" letter / discussion. Seems more likely to end things with him than to find solutions.
I second the theory that you give it a little time before making any final decisions. He's been chasing this girl for years, and they only been together for a couple months, so they are still in the all-consuming in-love phase of things. It's pretty hard to care about work when one is newly in love. Even if the relationship is going to self-combust, it probably wouldn't have had time to happen yet. Even if that doesn't happen, a few months may be long enough for him to learn to say "I can't answer the phone when I'm working."
So, can you take a little break, have a little hiatus? You can pitch it to him as "I know you finally caught the girl of your dreams, so obviously you're a little busy right now, and I had some other projects I wanted to try out..." Six or nine months down the line, you could check back in and see if it seems like it could work then.
posted by salvia at 9:13 PM on January 4, 2008
I like hermitosis's idea about the all-business conversation. I'd vote against any "here are all my thoughts on this" letter / discussion. Seems more likely to end things with him than to find solutions.
I second the theory that you give it a little time before making any final decisions. He's been chasing this girl for years, and they only been together for a couple months, so they are still in the all-consuming in-love phase of things. It's pretty hard to care about work when one is newly in love. Even if the relationship is going to self-combust, it probably wouldn't have had time to happen yet. Even if that doesn't happen, a few months may be long enough for him to learn to say "I can't answer the phone when I'm working."
So, can you take a little break, have a little hiatus? You can pitch it to him as "I know you finally caught the girl of your dreams, so obviously you're a little busy right now, and I had some other projects I wanted to try out..." Six or nine months down the line, you could check back in and see if it seems like it could work then.
posted by salvia at 9:13 PM on January 4, 2008
Talk to John. Please.
posted by Sticherbeast at 10:07 PM on January 4, 2008
posted by Sticherbeast at 10:07 PM on January 4, 2008
To clarify: John can't know what an asshole he is unless you tell him. If his behavior is changing and people act like it's hunky-dory, then he'll only get worse. I doubt John wants to be a drag.
posted by Sticherbeast at 10:09 PM on January 4, 2008
posted by Sticherbeast at 10:09 PM on January 4, 2008
Also: depressed people are really easy to manipulate. Have you talked to him about his depression?
posted by Sticherbeast at 10:13 PM on January 4, 2008
posted by Sticherbeast at 10:13 PM on January 4, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by burnmp3s at 7:30 AM on January 4, 2008