jazz recommendations
January 1, 2008 3:02 PM   Subscribe

JazzMe. I want to like jazz more but feel quickly overwhelmed by the genre so I'd like your recommendations, particularly for the albums you come back to time and again, the ones you listen to because you love, not because you feel you ought to. So far Kind of Blue is the only thing that's really stuck, not that I'm trying to find another KoB, just your favorites.

From what I have heard I'm probably less interested in early jazz, swing, big band, and vocal (though Nina Simone is pretty awesome). I'm leaning more towards bebop (already covered) and later jazz. But I won't categorically rule anything out except "smooth jazz."

I did go through a slight Miles Davis phase a few years back but haven't ventured much beyond that, aside from the odd Chick Corea and Stanley Clark album. And Jaco Pastorius; I play bass so I thought I should pick it up. I found it technically impressive but it left me feeling meh.

I know people really into jazz can end up with hundreds or even thousands of albums but I don't really have the time or money to become that involved. I did look through the jazz tag and found a lot of interesting but more specific questions.
posted by 6550 to Media & Arts (55 answers total) 58 users marked this as a favorite
Get familiar with the old Dave Brubeck stuff. Foundational kind of jazz.
posted by knotknitter at 3:07 PM on January 1, 2008

Well, you need some Coltrane, especially if you love Kind of Blue. A Love Supreme is usually considered his masterwork, though some people find it challenging, as he was beginning to explore some elements of avant-garde jazz. Blue Train would be another good starting point.
posted by mr_roboto at 3:08 PM on January 1, 2008

Happy Apple is very different from Coltrane, Davis, etc, but is definitely worth looking in to. Youth Oriented is very good.
posted by Camel of Space at 3:15 PM on January 1, 2008

Thelonious Monk - Live at Newport
Louis Hayes - Louis Hayes featuring Yusef Lateef and Nat Adderly
Cannonball Adderly - Somethin' Else (and the song Mercy, Mercy, Mercy)
posted by Frank Grimes at 3:18 PM on January 1, 2008

My best suggestion - explore the Miles Davis family tree. From Kind of Blue you could buy:

Somethin' Else by Cannonball Adderley (like Grimey says above)
Blue Train or Giant Steps or My Favorite Things by John Coltrane (all less challenging than his later work)
Smokin' at the Half Note by Wes Montgomery with Wynton Kelly, Paul Chambers and Jimmy Cobb (the rhythm section from "Freddie Freeloader" on KoB)
Sunday at the Village Vanguard or Waltz for Debby by Bill Evans

I also suggest taking chronological steps forward or back in the Miles Davis catalog - the recordings he made for Prestige in the mid-50s and the new quintet he formed after the KoB band broke up (well, the new quintet he formed after all the guys from that band finally left) are almost uniformly excellent, and you can branch the family trees from those albums as well.

Happy listening.
posted by peacecorn at 3:21 PM on January 1, 2008

I love Getz/Gilberto.
posted by winna at 3:25 PM on January 1, 2008

At first glance I thought this question was way too chatfiltery, but after thinking for a second, it is actually a great question to differentiate the "best" albums from the ones you listen to over and over.

These are the albums that really got their hooks into my ears:

John Coltrane - Giant Steps and A Love Supreme
Charles Mingus - Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus, Oh Yeah, and Mingus Ah Um
Miles Davis - Bitches Brew and, of course, Kind of Blue
Alice Coltrane - Journey in Satchidananda
Herbie Mann - At the Village Gate
posted by ssg at 3:27 PM on January 1, 2008

Kind of Blue is a great introduction to so much in jazz because each of the players has recorded great records with other people, who have recorded other albums that are great with other people, etc, etc, etc. The Miles Davis Quintet's albums on Prestige shouldn't be ignored, either - Workin', Steamin', Relaxin' and Cookin' are all gems.

That said, here are a few feet-in-the-water suggestions:
Seconding Blue Train as your next logical step for Coltrane . (I'm a massive fan and reducing it to just that is paining me, but if I start, I. Won't. Stop.)

Bill Evans, who played piano on Kind of Blue has two records recorded during the same stint playing in New York City: Waltz for Debby and Sunday at the Village Vanguard.

I really like Sonny Rollins a lot: Way Out West and Saxophone Colossus are favorites and it's interesting to compare how he plays the tenor sax compared to Coltrane.

Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers played a funkier version of the hard bop that's featured on Kind Of Blue. A Night In Tunisia is a swingin', raucous record that makes me smile every time.

Speaking of raucous, Mingus Ah Um by Charles Mingus would, if I had a car, make me whoop and throw my cowboy hat out of the window, if I had a cowboy hat.

See if your library has a copy of The All Music Guide to Jazz. It helped me immensely when I was first getting hooked.

Feel free to shoot me a MeFi mail if you have any specific questions. I've been where you are.
posted by beaucoupkevin at 3:30 PM on January 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Oscar Peterson's Night Train
Herbie Hancock's Head Hunters
posted by emelenjr at 3:32 PM on January 1, 2008

the ones you listen to because you love, not because you feel you ought to.

Second the Brubeck, lotta Miles fans really dig him.

Thelonious Monk's Straight No Chaser is probably my favorite jazz album. It just never gets old, to my ear; all those awesome rhythmic and percussive and melodic things he's doing with that piano. Ornette Coleman's The Shape of Jazz to Come is an unusual album that is both jazz-historically significant and fun to listen to. I love all the crossover-ish Brazilian bossa-nova artists - mainly Jobim and the Gilbertos - that Stan Getz worked with in a jazz context. I like Lionel Hampton on the vibes, which is a great jazz instrument the way he plays it. Sonny Rollins shouldn't be overlooked; I have some of his best-ofs that Blue Note put out, and I never tire of them. Vince Guaraldi's A Charlie Brown Christmas is unquestionably, if somewhat incongrously, one of the great jazz albums.

Coltrane had his moments, but A Love Supreme is about equal parts fun and work for me. Some of his more famous tracks, however, like "Summertime" and "My Favorite Things" are perfect. I am not a huge fan of Keith Jarrett, but his live cover of "Autumn Leaves" is one of my favorite things. John Zorn, Jaco/Weather Report, and Eric Dolphy are also artists whom I love deeply but it takes effort for me to listen to them right - I find them less accessible, I guess is what I'm saying - so they may not be for you.
posted by ikkyu2 at 3:35 PM on January 1, 2008

...the albums you come back to time and again, the ones you listen to because you love, not because you feel you ought to.

For me that's "Secret Story", by Pat Metheny. He's a jazz guitarist.

It's a bit unusual, in that about half the numbers have sections performed by the London Orchestra -- but it works, and works really well. Lush, gorgeous, moving, original, complex and challenging.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 3:37 PM on January 1, 2008

Oh, yeah, jeez, Mingus Ah Um. How could I forget that. In Defense of Drinking, by Michael Ventura, is probably the most eloquent testimonial to that album I've ever read. I went out and bought the album after reading that essay on Usenet, in college, and it lived up to every bit of what he says about it.
posted by ikkyu2 at 3:40 PM on January 1, 2008

I like Django Reinhardt. Perhaps something like Djangology would interest you.
posted by thinman at 3:44 PM on January 1, 2008

I'll second every recommendation here, but thought I'd add one of my own: Ahmad Jamal's At the Pershing: But Not For Me. Jamal was a major influence on Davis, but often gets overlooked in "best of" lists.

At the Pershing is an extraordinary live recording and features an excellent version of Poinciana, one Jamal's most popular works.

And unlike Coltrane, Evans and others mentioned here, Jamal is very much alive and working. I saw him play at the San Francisco Jazz Fest in November and was absolutely blown away. He's getting on, but he's definitely still got it.
posted by aladfar at 4:07 PM on January 1, 2008

I'm not a jazz-head at all, but I keep listening to Thelonious Monk's "Monk Himself" or "solo Monk". I love his piano work without the accompaniment it seems.
posted by Richat at 4:11 PM on January 1, 2008

Go back to the earliest days of jazz and get yourself a copy of Louis Armstrong's Hot Fives and Hot Sevens recordings (this is a good and affordable edition... there are many others.)

The Hot Fives and Hot Sevens recordings were made 80+ years ago (between 1925 and 1929) and you will be absolutely stunned by how fresh and energetic and musically complex and interesting they are. I defy you to listen to these recordings without smiling.
posted by enrevanche at 4:11 PM on January 1, 2008

Bitches Brew, Miles.
Heavy Weather, Weather Report. From around '76, '77?
posted by wafaa at 4:14 PM on January 1, 2008

Definitely seconding Straight No Chaser, it never gets old. For newer stuff: Nils Petter Molvaer's Khmer, and Dave Holland's Big Band stuff. And a friend recently introduced me to Nguyen Le, who is awesome.
posted by biscotti at 4:17 PM on January 1, 2008

Nthing most of everything that's been mentioned, with one minor substitution. Getz/Gilberto is fantastic, and you can't go wrong with it, but IMHO, it is trumped by Stan Getz and Charlie Byrd's Jazz Samba. Pure Bossa perfection.
posted by SpiffyRob at 4:19 PM on January 1, 2008

Here are the albums that spring time mind that haven't been mentioned:

Mingus - The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady (the best Mingus I've heard, including everything mentioned above)
Duke Ellington - Money Jungle (this has Mingus on bass, Roach on drums)
Sonny Rollins - Night at the Village Vanguard
Brad Mehldau- The Art of the Trio Vol. 4

If you're interested in guitarists:
Charlie Christian - The Genius of the Electric Guitar
Jim Hall - Jim Hall Live!
Wes Montgomery - The Incredible Jazz Guitar of Wes Montgomery
posted by Jaltcoh at 4:37 PM on January 1, 2008

spring to mind...
posted by Jaltcoh at 4:37 PM on January 1, 2008

my list would be:

Ornette Coleman - The Shape of Jazz to Come
John Coltrane - Giant Steps
Charles Mingus - Mingus Ah Um
Thelonious Monk - Monks Music
Eric Dolphy - Out to Lunch
and Kind of Blue, which you mentioned.
posted by dr. moot at 4:57 PM on January 1, 2008

Off the top of my head:

Charles Mingus - Mingus Ah Um
Charles Mingus - Blues and Roots
John Coltrane with Johnny Hartman - my favorite male vocal album of all time
John Coltrane - Giant Steps
Eric Dolphy - Out to Lunch
Booker Little - Out Front
Duke Ellington - Money Jungle
Duke Ellington - Black, Brown and Beige (Mahalia Jackson vocals on Come Sunday worth the price of admission alone)
Art Blakey - Moanin'
posted by thedanimal at 5:10 PM on January 1, 2008

You could watch Ken Burns' Jazz. The compilation CDs for the artists featured in the documentary are good overviews of their careers, and in many cases are the most comprehensive because Burns was able to get licensing from multiple labels.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:16 PM on January 1, 2008

Add to the above:

Ellis Marsalis - Ellis Marsalis Trio

If you like the Brazilian sound of Getz/Jobim, this is outstanding:

Joe Henderson - Double Rainbow: The Music of Antonio Carlos Jobim

In order to sample a wide array of artists, hie thee to your local library if it lends CDs.
posted by megatherium at 5:35 PM on January 1, 2008

And though I may be ridden out of this thread on a rail for saying it, those who like the Round About Midnight version of Miles Davis might like the new stuff by Chris Botti.
posted by megatherium at 5:36 PM on January 1, 2008

I was listening to Not in Our Name (sound clips will start playing when you open that up) by Charlie Haden/Liberation Music Orchestra earlier today and was reminded of just how much I enjoy it.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 5:59 PM on January 1, 2008

My all-time favorite jazz album is Gary Burton's Whiz Kids (after the first cut), but I think it's out of print.

Looking through the other excellent suggestions, I'll second thinman's recommendation of Django Reinhardt, along with some modern Gypsy Jazz players like Joscho Stephan, Frank Vignola and Stochelo Rosenberg just because I've really been enjoying the genre lately.
posted by sgass at 6:12 PM on January 1, 2008

Bill Evans is wonderful, as people have said. I think Explorations is one of his major works, played with the great trio of Scott LaFaro and Paul Motian. He makes wonderful music on a purely sensual level, but it has remarkable depth and his playing is so subtle and nuanced that you begin to wonder how it's a piano that he's playing. It was with this trio that he developed his concept of simultaneous composition, a playing style that was made largely possible by the fact that Scott LaFaro was one of the most uniquely talented jazz bassists to have ever lived.

Jim Hall was mentioned too, and he has much of the same sensitivity for his instrument, the guitar. In fact, the album Undercurrents, recorded with the aforementioned Evans, is another great of example of strong interplay between two wonderfully receptive players.

One of the pillars of jazz guitar is Wes Montgomery. Boss Guitar has a great interpretation of Bésame Mucho on it.

If you're into bebop, one of the greatest records in the genre is Jazz at Massey Hall, a concert played by Charlie Parker on saxophone, Dizzy Gillespie on trumpet, Bud Powell on piano, Max Roach on drums, and Charles Mingus on bass.

My Favorite Things is one of Coltrane's more approachable albums, although he is unable to resist using some of his new ideas in the mind-blowing solo he takes on the title track. It may not be considered as revolutionary as his later work like A Love Supreme, but that track (My Favorite Things) is one of the most emotional, honest and thrilling performances ever to be committed to tape. Another great album from Coltrane, released the same year as A Love Supreme but decidedly different in character, is Crescent. I'm strongly recommending that one to you because I have a hunch you'll love it for the same reasons that you love Kind of Blue. It's not as austere note-wise, but I feel that it treats similar emotional themes. It's a really beautiful record.

Herbie Hancock was a sideman for Miles Davis who went on to make some big changes from the jazz of pre-1970. Maiden Voyage is one of his great earlier efforts, Mwandishi and Crossings are some (challenging but great) electric fusion albums, and Head Hunters is FUNK. It may not be what you're thinking of in your question, but that's an amazing record no matter genre you're coming from. :)

These are kind of the stand-out guys that I've named, and they make great entry points, but I encourage you with each thing you listen to and enjoy to explore the efforts of every member of the band that's playing. Jazzers often have a profoundly different approach to playing when they are side(wo)men as opposed to band leaders, and it's always really interesting to hear how they modify their sound.
posted by invitapriore at 6:37 PM on January 1, 2008

I'll tell you this - if you like clinical cold jazz that listens like a scientist trying to breakdown music and recompose it in out of beat ways, then follow the suggestions above. If you want raw emotion, pain and the real thing, then listen to:

1. Billie Holiday
2. Ella Fitzgerald
3. Louis Armstrong
4. Dionne Warwick
5. Sade (the old album)
6. Laura Fygi

And as an extra bonus, the new album from

7. Alberta Hunter

These artists are not intellectual jazz singers. You won't talk about them in an art gallery wearing horn rimmed glasses. But those horn-rimmed people will have listened to all the artists above and dismissed them as too mainstream. Well, I'll say that the only truly good jazz artist is one that is mainstream, because jazz is supposed to open emotions, and not be some type of inaccessible scientific dissection of music.

If you want to know and like jazz to be intellectual, listen to Pats stuff. If you want real Jazz, listen to Billie.
posted by markovich at 6:39 PM on January 1, 2008

markovich, I disagree with you. Depth of emotion and intellectuality don't have to be mutually exclusive, even if, among the less talented players of "intellectual" jazz, they seem to be. Damn near every person mentioned above your post used their intellectual understanding of jazz as a vehicle to expand its vocabulary so that they could express their own individual emotions, things they felt that hadn't yet been translated into music. Sometimes they're complex emotions, but that doesn't dull their intensity. It would be a shame to have the OP adopt the ease with which you dismiss decades of honest music.
posted by invitapriore at 7:43 PM on January 1, 2008

Also, it's a rare person that truly loves jazz and thinks of people like Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald as "too mainstream." Maybe you've dealt with some uptight snots that feel that way, but your elitism is no different from theirs. Be what they can't and open yourself up to some new experiences.
posted by invitapriore at 7:47 PM on January 1, 2008

does ella count? i can't tell you enough good stuff about ella fitzgerald. she really turned me on to the whole jazz thing. the musicians on her recordings are outstanding. she just always, always played with the best. her vocal range is phenomenal and her voice is beyond compare. pure.
posted by brandz at 8:05 PM on January 1, 2008

Bill Dixon - Vade Mecum

Andrew Hill - Point of Departure

Eric Dolphy - anything, really, but especially Out to Lunch

Charles Mingus - Live at Antibes and Mingus Ah Um (many more, but these are the best)
posted by Joseph Gurl at 8:32 PM on January 1, 2008

Here are a few. And yeah, Thelonius Monk, Cannonball Adderly, Django, Stephane Grappelli, Charlie Parker, Erroll Garner, James Carter, Cal Tjader, Wes Montgomery, Dexter Gordon, Lester Young, Chick Webb, Grant Green, Clifford Brown, Artie Shaw, Howard McGhee, Charlie Shavers, Sonny Clark, Max Roach, Wynton Marsalis, Joshua Redman, King Pleasure, Dizzy Gillespie, Sidney Bechet, Count Basie... blah blah blah.

As for singers, I'd recommend Anita O'Day for you, I think.
posted by miss lynnster at 8:32 PM on January 1, 2008

I've chimed in here before on the greatness of Jimmy Giuffre, but I'll gladly do it again. His trio work from the late 50s and early 60s is both accessible and innovative. His compositions were frequently folk based and understated but they laid the groundwork for beautiful solos and group interaction. From the 50s try Jimmy Giuffre 3 or Western Suite with Jim Hall and Bob Brookmeyer. The 60s trio with Paul Bley and Steve Swallow was more experimental in song structure but the communication between the three makes for engrossing listening. 1961, which includes the albums Fusion and Thesis, is one of my all time favorites.
posted by Zebtron at 9:08 PM on January 1, 2008

I like the title song from John Coltrane's Olé a lot.
posted by juv3nal at 9:16 PM on January 1, 2008

I'll have to second Anita O'Day and add her to my list. And I will add that I believe Pat Metheny has some of the worst Jazz ever. Even Mr. Gorelick is way more talented than he is. Pat creates 7 minutes long of brain dead musical theory.

Count Basie (and Duke Ellington) are okay, but I think their works are just too stuck in their time to really be significant anymore. Ella has music that is still good now, but Basies music is like that 80s pop song "Girls just wanna have fun". It's a nice song, but it's just SOOOO 80s.

Now, there is one more Album I have that is some of the best jazz playing I ever heard. It's a brazilian CD, and unfortunately none of the tracks are named. It's all in portugese, so I cannot find out the names of the tracks. Everyone who hears it loves it, but nobody knows who sang it. It's not Getz style, it's more of a harmonic wailing with a jazz fore. Good stuff.
posted by markovich at 9:27 PM on January 1, 2008

I agree with the recommendation of Heavy Weather. Very fine album.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 9:47 PM on January 1, 2008

markovich, I love Ella dearly. I am also moved near to tears by Getz's playing on O Grande Amor on Getz/Gilberto. I don't want to start a heated argument, but have you listened to that track lately? It's full of painful longing, of feeling a love that is gone but not forgotten, a persistent memory like the fragrance of flowers in the late night rain. And Stan nails that mood in the first three notes.

This is not an intellectual horn-rimmed glasses recording. This is distilled saudade. There are a lot of great albums here which I can't help but think you're being a bit unfair to with the 'intellectual' characterization.
posted by winna at 10:10 PM on January 1, 2008

lee morgan is amazing, and so is the story of his death. sonny stitt too.
posted by Large Marge at 10:15 PM on January 1, 2008

Duke Ellington's Far East Suite is one of the most evocative and original jazz albums I know.
posted by speicus at 10:52 PM on January 1, 2008

Every time one of these threads comes up, I'm always the guy who suggests Jimmy Smith. He's the granddaddy of the Jazz Organ, and has a TON of great stuff from his Blue Note years, though his later Verve stuff has some quality too.

It's not smooth jazz, it's just very very cool, and I dare say it's easier to listen to over and over again than Miles, who can be a bit arch sometimes. (Hey, I've got Bitches Brew, and I dig it, but it's not something you put on while kicking back with a book.)

Otherwise, seconding Herbie Hancock. I have basically all of his albums through Headhunters and Thrust. Really in the sweet spot of the Miles Davis era.
posted by Doctor Suarez at 12:01 AM on January 2, 2008

Miles Davis / Porgy and Bess is absolutely incredible. Also seconding Coltrane / My Favourite Things.
posted by bifter at 2:38 AM on January 2, 2008

Miles Davis - Bitches Brew - several mentions up thread and you mention that you have listened a bit to Stanley Clark; as an aspiring bassist he's probably a god to you.
What about Billy Cobham, Wayne Shorter, or Herbie Hancock.
posted by adamvasco at 3:47 AM on January 2, 2008

Jean-Luc Ponty: "Cosmic Messenger". Bonus, the cover art is beautiful.
I love that album, it is, IMO, Ponty's best. Ponty plays electric violin, and does it very wonderful justice. I've seen him live, twice, too. He was very well received at NYs Beacon. His "Mystical Adventures" is good, too, but includes a couple covers that, while nice, I would rather have had more Ponty.
posted by Goofyy at 4:47 AM on January 2, 2008

McCoy Tyner's Trident is a fantastic 1970s jazz piano album, with Ron Carter on bass and Elvin Jones on the skins.
posted by goo at 4:56 AM on January 2, 2008

Nthing Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers: A Night in Tunisia, and anything by Charles Mingus, Sonny Rollins, or Duke Ellington.
posted by adustum at 7:42 AM on January 2, 2008

You're a bass player? Anything by Bela Fleck and the Flecktones is pretty much required instrumental listening. See if you like:

Turtle Rock
The Sinister Minister (short version)
Big Country

and here's some of just the bass player, Victor Wooten -- easily the best in the world, IMO:

Chick Corea show
Studio Solo
Another solo (live)

Just pick an album. Any album. Seriously.
posted by LordSludge at 7:51 AM on January 2, 2008

I play bass so I thought I should pick it up.

You need Mingus. You want Mingus. Go get some. (See above suggestions for specific albums).
posted by jeversol at 8:09 AM on January 2, 2008

Lots of great recommendations. Brubeck/Miles/Kind of Blue are great, but I would urge you to use them as jumping-off points to explore your particular tastes. In that vein, try Monk (never really cared for him), Bill Evans (same), Coltrane (at his best, he's unbeatable), and Charlie Parker.

Just as rock n roll and rap/hip-hop often have a sound due to their place and time of origin, so too does jazz. Are you into the brassy sound? The "cool" jazz style of Miles' "Birth of the Cool"? (another must-have) The Brazilian-style stuff with Stan Getz and Gilberto? Mingus? (not for everyone)

Also check out some less-heralded west coast artists like Lowell Fulson (San Francisco Blues).
posted by Brian James at 11:28 AM on January 2, 2008

Get some cheap hits packages by the big names and figure out who to invest in.

Monk would be a good start and a good finish. Also try Bill Evans, KoB conspirator, at the Vanguard; you might like his bassist, Scott LaFaro.
posted by pracowity at 1:21 PM on January 2, 2008

The closest thing I have ever heard to Kind of Blue has got to be Grant Green's Idle Moments. If you want that real mellow and atmospheric feel that KoB has, I strongly recommend it. I don't understand why it is not very well known outside of the real jazz nerd community. Fantastic record!
posted by 4Lnqvv at 5:37 PM on January 2, 2008

Response by poster: Wow, thanks for all the great responses! I'll be sure to update as I listen to these albums with what I really liked.
posted by 6550 at 11:53 AM on January 3, 2008

I'd like to invite the rest of this thread to ignore markovich's challenging tone - that's no way to conduct a discussion on the Internet, man - and focus on his excellent recommendations.

invitapriore: You called Coltrane's My Favorite Things "mindblowing."

I remember exactly where I was and what I was doing the first time I heard it. I was 13, sitting in a friend's bedroom and chatting about an action movie trailer that featured some unusual music. The music was Hendrix's "Purple Haze." We were sitting and chatting about the effect that Hendrix produced in that 15 second snippet, how it was a very heavy sound. We then got to talking about the guitar solo in Purple Haze and I asked my friend, why is there a guitar solo anyway? He explained to me, "that's from jazz. sometimes in jazz they take a solo; it's the artist's way of showing what he can do with his instrument."

He then went downstairs - his father had a huge jazz collection, a real aficionado - and got My Favorite Things and brought it upstairs, so I could hear what a solo was and what the purpose of it could be.

That moment marked a dividing line, an expansion of my consciousness. Coltrane showed me - an untutored kid - what he could do with his instrument, which I will not diminish by attempting to describe. Music was different for me, after that; it was much better. I guess that qualifies as "mindblowing" by anyone's definition.
posted by ikkyu2 at 11:58 AM on January 3, 2008 [4 favorites]

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