Can I be happy and successful without a degree? How?
December 25, 2007 8:39 PM Subscribe
I want to drop out of college because I'm unhappy with it. I don't think I really absolutely need a degree to do what I want. My goal is to work in a computer/network security or general (*nix) sysadmin position. Help me form a plan to a happy and successful life without a degree.
I want to give you some background, but it's going to be really long. Sorry. If you'd rather skip all the background, see the paragraph that starts with "Here's where you come in".
I graduated high school with an unimpressive GPA (3.0 or lower, I can't remember the exact figure) and an impressive ACT (32, curse you tricky math section). To this day I think this totally describes who I am. I hated high school because it was boring (for the most part). I was a bright kid who hated the fact that things were so easy for me. I wanted to go at my pace, not everyone else's. This frustrated me, and I honestly got bad grades because I just didn't care at all. Why should I waste my time when I can do more interesting things?
Anyway, my ACT and and a couple glowing recommendations from adults who understood me secured me a full scholarship (up to in-state tuition) to the out of state school of my choice to study computer science. Loans and money from my parents/part time job paid the remainder. I spent my freshman year with my nose to the grind stone, studying and soaking up everything I could. I loved the independence, my new friends, and the city (I come from a suburban/rural area).
Eventually though, cracks started forming in my love for college. Apathy tainted my college experience; both the apathy of certain profs (one who didn't know my name after taking 3 semester-long major-specific classes with him was the worst) and my own personal apathy. Lectures often had little worthwhile information (what's with this speech/art/randomrequirement class) and/or merely parroted the same thing you could read in the expensive required textbook for the course. Over the next 2 years, I started going to class less and less. My grades slowly slipped from a solid 4.0 freshman year, to B's...C's...and F's when I didn't just drop the class entirely. By the end of the 3rd year there I realized I should have left a long time ago. The campus I lusted after just 3 years ago as a highschool senior now revolted me.
I had repeated my high school cycle, though a bit more dramatically. Initial optimism and hard work that decays into frustrated indifference and apathy. I didn't really realize all this at the time. I should have, and the questions that I should have asked myself were: "Is college right for me?", "Do I really want this degree?", "Do I really need it?". Instead what I did was ask myself "What college should I go to instead?". My scholarships revoked, I moved back home this spring. I decided to go to a private college just across the state border from home. I have barely enough credits to be a junior. $20,000 a year for out of state tuition. Ouch. No problem, I secured a giant loan for most of it.
You'd think I'd just repeat my last cycle right? I didn't. The last 5 months have been some of the most unhappiest months of my life and that's reflected in my grades. I hate my new school as much as I hated my old one. I currently have a part time job in retail that pays $8.50/hr. It's been the only thing in the past 5 months that actually makes me happy. I love going to work. I love my co-workers. I love my boss. Plus I get a discount on my hobby (photography).
Here is where you come in. I honestly don't think college is right for me. I plan to officially drop out before the end of break. College and all the money I spent on it will be the biggest mistake in my life so far. I'm scared out of my mind.
Upon leaving school, all my loans will go into payment. I'll have ~$20,000 in loans and ~$4,000 in credit card debt that need paying off. Going full time at my current job may be an option, but is unlikely.
Computer security fascinates me. I'd love to work somewhere in that field. Network security, forensics, pen testing, etc etc. It all interests me. A general sysadmin job (preferably *nix and not microsoft) would be cool too. Do I really need a degree to do this? Of course a degree gets your foot in the door. But I'm convinced through certification (Maybe a technical school with an online degree program? Are any NOT diploma mills?) and hard work I can do the same thing and be immensely more satisfied. I'm smart, talented, and have a passion. I don't have to end up stocking shelves at Walmart if I don't have a degree! ...right?
So here's my plan.
1) Get a full time job for debts / living expenses
2) Pay off school / credit debt
3) Get certifications (technical degree?)
4) Try very hard to find an entry level position that interests me career wise
5) ???
6) Profit!
Am I crazy? Will I end up flipping burgers?
Or is this the best choice for someone who isn't college material? What would you do differently? Do you have any specific recommendations for certs or tech school? Any personal ancedotes about how you did fine without a degree?
Help!
I want to give you some background, but it's going to be really long. Sorry. If you'd rather skip all the background, see the paragraph that starts with "Here's where you come in".
I graduated high school with an unimpressive GPA (3.0 or lower, I can't remember the exact figure) and an impressive ACT (32, curse you tricky math section). To this day I think this totally describes who I am. I hated high school because it was boring (for the most part). I was a bright kid who hated the fact that things were so easy for me. I wanted to go at my pace, not everyone else's. This frustrated me, and I honestly got bad grades because I just didn't care at all. Why should I waste my time when I can do more interesting things?
Anyway, my ACT and and a couple glowing recommendations from adults who understood me secured me a full scholarship (up to in-state tuition) to the out of state school of my choice to study computer science. Loans and money from my parents/part time job paid the remainder. I spent my freshman year with my nose to the grind stone, studying and soaking up everything I could. I loved the independence, my new friends, and the city (I come from a suburban/rural area).
Eventually though, cracks started forming in my love for college. Apathy tainted my college experience; both the apathy of certain profs (one who didn't know my name after taking 3 semester-long major-specific classes with him was the worst) and my own personal apathy. Lectures often had little worthwhile information (what's with this speech/art/randomrequirement class) and/or merely parroted the same thing you could read in the expensive required textbook for the course. Over the next 2 years, I started going to class less and less. My grades slowly slipped from a solid 4.0 freshman year, to B's...C's...and F's when I didn't just drop the class entirely. By the end of the 3rd year there I realized I should have left a long time ago. The campus I lusted after just 3 years ago as a highschool senior now revolted me.
I had repeated my high school cycle, though a bit more dramatically. Initial optimism and hard work that decays into frustrated indifference and apathy. I didn't really realize all this at the time. I should have, and the questions that I should have asked myself were: "Is college right for me?", "Do I really want this degree?", "Do I really need it?". Instead what I did was ask myself "What college should I go to instead?". My scholarships revoked, I moved back home this spring. I decided to go to a private college just across the state border from home. I have barely enough credits to be a junior. $20,000 a year for out of state tuition. Ouch. No problem, I secured a giant loan for most of it.
You'd think I'd just repeat my last cycle right? I didn't. The last 5 months have been some of the most unhappiest months of my life and that's reflected in my grades. I hate my new school as much as I hated my old one. I currently have a part time job in retail that pays $8.50/hr. It's been the only thing in the past 5 months that actually makes me happy. I love going to work. I love my co-workers. I love my boss. Plus I get a discount on my hobby (photography).
Here is where you come in. I honestly don't think college is right for me. I plan to officially drop out before the end of break. College and all the money I spent on it will be the biggest mistake in my life so far. I'm scared out of my mind.
Upon leaving school, all my loans will go into payment. I'll have ~$20,000 in loans and ~$4,000 in credit card debt that need paying off. Going full time at my current job may be an option, but is unlikely.
Computer security fascinates me. I'd love to work somewhere in that field. Network security, forensics, pen testing, etc etc. It all interests me. A general sysadmin job (preferably *nix and not microsoft) would be cool too. Do I really need a degree to do this? Of course a degree gets your foot in the door. But I'm convinced through certification (Maybe a technical school with an online degree program? Are any NOT diploma mills?) and hard work I can do the same thing and be immensely more satisfied. I'm smart, talented, and have a passion. I don't have to end up stocking shelves at Walmart if I don't have a degree! ...right?
So here's my plan.
1) Get a full time job for debts / living expenses
2) Pay off school / credit debt
3) Get certifications (technical degree?)
4) Try very hard to find an entry level position that interests me career wise
5) ???
6) Profit!
Am I crazy? Will I end up flipping burgers?
Or is this the best choice for someone who isn't college material? What would you do differently? Do you have any specific recommendations for certs or tech school? Any personal ancedotes about how you did fine without a degree?
Help!
You're not crazy. Many people have had happy and successful lives without a college degree. However, if you're wanting to achieve your 6-part plan, you will need to have work experience in your chosen field (and without a college degree, that will mean working your way up from the bottom). You'll also need certification (which can be accomplished with short courses at technical colleges). Good luck to you!
posted by amyms at 8:52 PM on December 25, 2007
posted by amyms at 8:52 PM on December 25, 2007
I dropped out of high school. I know a lot about computers. I ended up getting a job at a tech support call center, and then eventually got a job as an onsite tech in a big company. So yes, it's possible. Certifications do help.
posted by PowerCat at 8:55 PM on December 25, 2007
posted by PowerCat at 8:55 PM on December 25, 2007
If I had a dollar for every friend of mine, successful in previous jobs, intelligent, interesting, hardworking... for every one of those friends who wanted to come and work with me, and couldn't even get past the initial HR screening because they didn't have a degree...
Let me tell you something. I have friends who owned their own startups and were almost millionaires at one point in the tech industry, and now, they are making less than I do because of all the job ups and downs with the industry and our crappy economy these days. Quite frankly, some companies will NEVER even consider you without that degree, just because there are so many candidates out there with lots of experience, AND degrees... you can't just assume that because you are smart and hardworking that it will be enough. It won't. If it comes down to you, and someone else with a degree, even if you have more experience, you might get passed up. It will piss you off and hold you back.
In 1999, I would have said the opposite. I would have said, hey man, I'm about to be made partner in a company and NONE of the people have degrees. I wasn't feeling so confident three years later when I had laid every other employee off except us final five that closed the business. But those days are kinda over, you know? Even if you live, say, in the Bay Area, or NYC, or somewhere there are LOTS of jobs in the field you're in, you will be guaranteed more money and have more opportunities with that degree than you can imagine right now. Imagine that you're buying yourself insurance... income insurance. That degree shows you have discipline; that's important to employers.
I have worked in software development, advertising, brand developing, distance-learning applications and now work for one of the top 10 sites in the world and plainly: You need a degree. I have managed to find employment and make a steady salary because I have one; some of my peers have not been so lucky. Please don't quit school; it's so much harder to back years later once you do, and it's harder to pay for once you've accrued other life debts. The debt is a one-timer, and your brain is always a good investment.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 8:56 PM on December 25, 2007 [8 favorites]
Let me tell you something. I have friends who owned their own startups and were almost millionaires at one point in the tech industry, and now, they are making less than I do because of all the job ups and downs with the industry and our crappy economy these days. Quite frankly, some companies will NEVER even consider you without that degree, just because there are so many candidates out there with lots of experience, AND degrees... you can't just assume that because you are smart and hardworking that it will be enough. It won't. If it comes down to you, and someone else with a degree, even if you have more experience, you might get passed up. It will piss you off and hold you back.
In 1999, I would have said the opposite. I would have said, hey man, I'm about to be made partner in a company and NONE of the people have degrees. I wasn't feeling so confident three years later when I had laid every other employee off except us final five that closed the business. But those days are kinda over, you know? Even if you live, say, in the Bay Area, or NYC, or somewhere there are LOTS of jobs in the field you're in, you will be guaranteed more money and have more opportunities with that degree than you can imagine right now. Imagine that you're buying yourself insurance... income insurance. That degree shows you have discipline; that's important to employers.
I have worked in software development, advertising, brand developing, distance-learning applications and now work for one of the top 10 sites in the world and plainly: You need a degree. I have managed to find employment and make a steady salary because I have one; some of my peers have not been so lucky. Please don't quit school; it's so much harder to back years later once you do, and it's harder to pay for once you've accrued other life debts. The debt is a one-timer, and your brain is always a good investment.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 8:56 PM on December 25, 2007 [8 favorites]
Don't think of dropping out of college as a permanent decision. College will always be there. Clearly you should not be in school right now. Work, explore career options, flip a few burgers if it comes to that. In a few years you might find college and entirely different place.
Merry Christmas.
posted by LarryC at 9:03 PM on December 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
Merry Christmas.
posted by LarryC at 9:03 PM on December 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
You are crazy and will be flipping burgers.
The college... we are talking about about 4 - 5 years of your 60+ years of upcoming life.
That is time worth spending. (i am around 35 and... I still think it is worth a lot more to me and anyone who I have met.)
By looking at what you wrote, it doesn't seems like you are attending bad college. It looks like habitual "starting good & hard AND not finishing things off"... If anything, I would recommend you to grind through it and at least get some kind of degree. Even if you are not learning anything, you will want to stop this "not finishing off" cycle.
This is good for your future life and later your own family.
The money you are talking about is not even worth mentioning.... In most cases people earn and spend much more after the college.
I am almost angry that some one is talking the way you are... degree is not just for your job.. it shows your maturity and teaches to get ready for real life...
How would you be prepared for sys. admin.? Even if you get the job, you wouldn't be trusted for long term...
You seem like some one who can organize well and plan things well... but you are not thinking long term. Please get back to your studies and get a degree. No matter what those ads says, certificates or tech school graduates have much tougher time achiving goals than people with degree. Wouldn't you want to go up on the ladder instead of doing same thing for decades?
Your hard time in the college seems to be more of social problem than the college itself.
GET tough and don't take things too personally. Have fun with your plans... if you want... get C's .. average score with degree is much much better than no degree.
posted by curiousleo at 9:03 PM on December 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
The college... we are talking about about 4 - 5 years of your 60+ years of upcoming life.
That is time worth spending. (i am around 35 and... I still think it is worth a lot more to me and anyone who I have met.)
By looking at what you wrote, it doesn't seems like you are attending bad college. It looks like habitual "starting good & hard AND not finishing things off"... If anything, I would recommend you to grind through it and at least get some kind of degree. Even if you are not learning anything, you will want to stop this "not finishing off" cycle.
This is good for your future life and later your own family.
The money you are talking about is not even worth mentioning.... In most cases people earn and spend much more after the college.
I am almost angry that some one is talking the way you are... degree is not just for your job.. it shows your maturity and teaches to get ready for real life...
How would you be prepared for sys. admin.? Even if you get the job, you wouldn't be trusted for long term...
You seem like some one who can organize well and plan things well... but you are not thinking long term. Please get back to your studies and get a degree. No matter what those ads says, certificates or tech school graduates have much tougher time achiving goals than people with degree. Wouldn't you want to go up on the ladder instead of doing same thing for decades?
Your hard time in the college seems to be more of social problem than the college itself.
GET tough and don't take things too personally. Have fun with your plans... if you want... get C's .. average score with degree is much much better than no degree.
posted by curiousleo at 9:03 PM on December 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
oops... harder to GO back years later...
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 9:05 PM on December 25, 2007
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 9:05 PM on December 25, 2007
Have fun with your plans...
oops i mean friends.
posted by curiousleo at 9:07 PM on December 25, 2007
oops i mean friends.
posted by curiousleo at 9:07 PM on December 25, 2007
I'm going to be blunt. You're going to take a much bigger risk trying to do what you want to do without a college degree than by simply sucking it up and getting a degree.
To be fair, you can do it. It'll be a slow, progressive process that may not succeed. Further, you will be burdened by your debt from the offset, which will not be fun at all. However, if you can get an IT job somewhere (it won't be network security, it will be as a part-time low-paying job for a small business), you can progressively move up the chain. You will be continuously passed over for corporate jobs because you don't have a degree, but there are jobs that you may get by work-of-mouth and professional reputation. You're going to need a lot of that - the people that are willing to pass over the degree aspect are not going to be kind to you with checking your abilities.
Just... please don't do that. You have a 32 ACT. That's the same that I got. You can get a degree, it just might not be fun. However, having your resume never seen will be worse for you. You can definitely get a college-level understanding of certain technical matters from trade schools and certifications. That's not what employers look for though! A degree is a sign that you have nominal technical ability, nominal social ability, and nominal communication ability. You may have all of those anyway. Employers just aren't willing to take risks. Most importantly, that's what you're going to be for more than a few years until you really really establish yourself professionally. There aren't many people willing to pay much more than your $8.50/hour to risky prospects.
Approximately 1/3 of Americans have a bachelor's degree. When you don't have one, the best you can hope for at the entry level is to be in the middle third in the eye's of a recruiter. That's not a good position to be in. You aren't going to be looking for a position that interests you, you will be looking for a position that will actually consider hiring you.
Just do me a favor before you go any further on this. Go to dice.com and look for jobs with keywords that interest you. Sort the jobs into three categories: jobs that have B.S. required, jobs that allow experience instead of a degree, and jobs that require no experience and no degree.
You only have a fighting chance of being hired in the last column. There is a bare minimum chance you will get hired in the middle column (since you won't have experience yet). There is essentially ZERO chance you will get hired in the first column.
posted by saeculorum at 9:07 PM on December 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
To be fair, you can do it. It'll be a slow, progressive process that may not succeed. Further, you will be burdened by your debt from the offset, which will not be fun at all. However, if you can get an IT job somewhere (it won't be network security, it will be as a part-time low-paying job for a small business), you can progressively move up the chain. You will be continuously passed over for corporate jobs because you don't have a degree, but there are jobs that you may get by work-of-mouth and professional reputation. You're going to need a lot of that - the people that are willing to pass over the degree aspect are not going to be kind to you with checking your abilities.
Just... please don't do that. You have a 32 ACT. That's the same that I got. You can get a degree, it just might not be fun. However, having your resume never seen will be worse for you. You can definitely get a college-level understanding of certain technical matters from trade schools and certifications. That's not what employers look for though! A degree is a sign that you have nominal technical ability, nominal social ability, and nominal communication ability. You may have all of those anyway. Employers just aren't willing to take risks. Most importantly, that's what you're going to be for more than a few years until you really really establish yourself professionally. There aren't many people willing to pay much more than your $8.50/hour to risky prospects.
Approximately 1/3 of Americans have a bachelor's degree. When you don't have one, the best you can hope for at the entry level is to be in the middle third in the eye's of a recruiter. That's not a good position to be in. You aren't going to be looking for a position that interests you, you will be looking for a position that will actually consider hiring you.
Just do me a favor before you go any further on this. Go to dice.com and look for jobs with keywords that interest you. Sort the jobs into three categories: jobs that have B.S. required, jobs that allow experience instead of a degree, and jobs that require no experience and no degree.
You only have a fighting chance of being hired in the last column. There is a bare minimum chance you will get hired in the middle column (since you won't have experience yet). There is essentially ZERO chance you will get hired in the first column.
posted by saeculorum at 9:07 PM on December 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
I did it; left school prior to completing my degree, and am doing reasonably well.
I also had to wash dishes, mow lawns, and build stone walls until I got my big break- a job as shipping clerk at a software company. It took 4 years to get out of shipping and over to tech support. It took 4 more years at the next job to get to development, and 8 years after that to build up enough of a resume and client base to get going doing what I really want to do.
If your time frame (and willingness to scrape by) doesn't match up with the 10-16 year plan, you may want to reconsider leaving school. You can probably land an entry level PM job at a tech company pretty easily with a degree; you'll need to work for startups and tiny companies without one- they tend to be less fossilized.
So yeah, you'll probably flip some burgers and take on some scut work until you can cobble together a pretty good resume and get some good projects under your belt. A degree can help you skip the worst of this stuff- but if you can't stick it out for another year and a half without sticking your head in an oven, then by all means buy the lottery ticket. Once you get to a certain point, it's all about the experience and the communication skills- where you went to college becomes much less relevant once you're established.
Good luck!
posted by jenkinsEar at 9:07 PM on December 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
I also had to wash dishes, mow lawns, and build stone walls until I got my big break- a job as shipping clerk at a software company. It took 4 years to get out of shipping and over to tech support. It took 4 more years at the next job to get to development, and 8 years after that to build up enough of a resume and client base to get going doing what I really want to do.
If your time frame (and willingness to scrape by) doesn't match up with the 10-16 year plan, you may want to reconsider leaving school. You can probably land an entry level PM job at a tech company pretty easily with a degree; you'll need to work for startups and tiny companies without one- they tend to be less fossilized.
So yeah, you'll probably flip some burgers and take on some scut work until you can cobble together a pretty good resume and get some good projects under your belt. A degree can help you skip the worst of this stuff- but if you can't stick it out for another year and a half without sticking your head in an oven, then by all means buy the lottery ticket. Once you get to a certain point, it's all about the experience and the communication skills- where you went to college becomes much less relevant once you're established.
Good luck!
posted by jenkinsEar at 9:07 PM on December 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
Moreover, if you don't want to consider my reasoning, consider my salary - >$60k right out of college with precisely 3 months of relevant experience (an internship). My salary is not even particularly high for my class.
posted by saeculorum at 9:10 PM on December 25, 2007
posted by saeculorum at 9:10 PM on December 25, 2007
Reread the second and third paragraphs of Unicorn on the cob's response. I've been working in tech jobs for five years, and I'm convinced that while a degree isn't actually necessary to have the skills, lacking one will close a lot of doors. Is that fair? Heck no. But it's the reality of the job market, even - maybe especially - in areas with a strong tech industry. The problem is that until you get to an interview, you and Guy X, where Guy X went to college but has less of an actual skillset than you, will appear the same. You both say you know about certain things. Sure, get to an interview and you could show him up. But without that degree, a lot of companies aren't going to even give you that interview. Again, unfair, but still the reality of the system.
Also, a lot of those closed doors will become more apparent when you want to get out of entry-level positions and start moving up. Once you start aiming for roles with more responsibility and pay, you'll start hitting that wall even harder. "We need someone to manage our network... well, this guy looks good, but there's no degree - and I've got more people with Info Sci/Comp Sci degrees than I can shake a stick at. Let's not bother with him."
Note that I'm not claiming you're 100% screwed here. The scenario you've laid out is entirely reasonable, and I wouldn't be shocked if it worked. But you'll be damaging your career options heavily, and not just in the short term while you work up some certifications and skills. Well-paying white-collar jobs expect a college degree right now - it's not fair, but it's very hard to avoid that expectation, and, well, Unicorn on the cob put it best. It's income insurance.
posted by Tomorrowful at 9:12 PM on December 25, 2007
Also, a lot of those closed doors will become more apparent when you want to get out of entry-level positions and start moving up. Once you start aiming for roles with more responsibility and pay, you'll start hitting that wall even harder. "We need someone to manage our network... well, this guy looks good, but there's no degree - and I've got more people with Info Sci/Comp Sci degrees than I can shake a stick at. Let's not bother with him."
Note that I'm not claiming you're 100% screwed here. The scenario you've laid out is entirely reasonable, and I wouldn't be shocked if it worked. But you'll be damaging your career options heavily, and not just in the short term while you work up some certifications and skills. Well-paying white-collar jobs expect a college degree right now - it's not fair, but it's very hard to avoid that expectation, and, well, Unicorn on the cob put it best. It's income insurance.
posted by Tomorrowful at 9:12 PM on December 25, 2007
Just find another degree that interests you more. Everyone else in here who is saying that your life will suck in the job market (especially in the downturned economy that we're entering!) without a degree is completely 100% right.
Case in point: I just got a job that's quite more than a comfortable living. I won it over a guy that had an extra year of experience in the field and was already friends with a bunch of people in the office, and his experience was more aimed at what they were doing now. Why did I get it instead? I had a degree, he didn't. My degree's in business, not computer science. The guy ended up taking a job that was fifteen thousand dollars per year than the job I ended up taking.. at that rate in the local area, he's barely breaking even after living expenses and god forbid he get into debt.
Get a degree. It doesn't matter what it's in. Everyone in the tech world knows that you don't have to have a degree in what you're planning to work in... the best programmer I ever hired had a dual bachelor's in religion and philosophy from Wesleyan. But you *have* to have a degree to show that you can meet the minimum requirements to put in four or more years on challenging projects without getting bored and wandering off.
posted by SpecialK at 9:14 PM on December 25, 2007
Case in point: I just got a job that's quite more than a comfortable living. I won it over a guy that had an extra year of experience in the field and was already friends with a bunch of people in the office, and his experience was more aimed at what they were doing now. Why did I get it instead? I had a degree, he didn't. My degree's in business, not computer science. The guy ended up taking a job that was fifteen thousand dollars per year than the job I ended up taking.. at that rate in the local area, he's barely breaking even after living expenses and god forbid he get into debt.
Get a degree. It doesn't matter what it's in. Everyone in the tech world knows that you don't have to have a degree in what you're planning to work in... the best programmer I ever hired had a dual bachelor's in religion and philosophy from Wesleyan. But you *have* to have a degree to show that you can meet the minimum requirements to put in four or more years on challenging projects without getting bored and wandering off.
posted by SpecialK at 9:14 PM on December 25, 2007
Response by poster: I appreciate some of you trying to talk me out of dropping out. But honestly, I don't think there's any reason why I would want to continue school right now. Maybe you missed this, but I'll highlight it for you "The last 5 months have been some of the most unhappiest months of my life and that's reflected in my grades." I passed one class, just one. I absolutely hate school. Maybe I didn't make this clear enough.
posted by crypticgeek at 9:15 PM on December 25, 2007
posted by crypticgeek at 9:15 PM on December 25, 2007
Those days are over. I've been working in IT without a college degree since 1999 (I started working full-time during my junior year of college, near the tail end of the tech boom) and I've been stuck at the bottom of the corporate ladder since then. I ended up dropping out for a few years and went back. My freshman year of college was 1997, and I completed my college degree last week - in 2007. Ten freaking years.
You don't have to pay $20k/year, go to your local state school.
Trust me, if you don't get your college degree now you'll be taking night classes for the next decade trying to catch up with everyone that did. There is no advancement* in IT without a college degree.
* Of course there are exceptions. Some people can do it, but they're a small minority.
posted by exhilaration at 9:19 PM on December 25, 2007
You don't have to pay $20k/year, go to your local state school.
Trust me, if you don't get your college degree now you'll be taking night classes for the next decade trying to catch up with everyone that did. There is no advancement* in IT without a college degree.
* Of course there are exceptions. Some people can do it, but they're a small minority.
posted by exhilaration at 9:19 PM on December 25, 2007
School is only not an option if it is worse than the alternative. You will be earning less than $15/hour for the near future. If you can pay off your debt and live where you are for less than $30k/year (and I'd further say less than $25k/year) in a matter that is substantively better than 1-2 more years of school, than you're alright. I don't think you want to do that though. I certainly wouldn't.
posted by saeculorum at 9:21 PM on December 25, 2007
posted by saeculorum at 9:21 PM on December 25, 2007
I don't know how much you've romanticized your future career, but it does sound like you romanticized college a great deal. But while you're already there, instead of deciding that it was a huge mistake and dropping out and deciding that you're not "college material", find something worthwhile to learn. You say that you are committed to pursuing your career through hard work...well, here's your pep talk: Working hard at finishing college would be a good start. I'm not saying that you should sublimate all personal intellectual goals in service to The Man, but you can get through the coursework while still pursuing more complex and fulfilling interests/passions in your free time. And look for ways to make connections!
Here's the thing. Even in your absolute dream job, there are going to be massive demotivational factors at times. Unqualified or lazy or apathetic or just plain nasty people, some of whom in positions of power, who will do stupid or self-serving or shortsighted or really fucked-up things. Even in your dream job, you are going to have tough days where you find the work boring and have to slog through it to get back to the good stuff. When you achieve a position of authority acknowledging your expertise, you will then find that managing people is a whole 'nother job on top of your own job that can be both awesome and another fresh hell. What's going to happen when you have a really tough few months on a job...will you decide that you're not "work material?" Or will it be everyone else's fault? You have to find a way to balance the rewarding and not-so-fun parts of responsibility if you're going to make wise decisions about the rest of your career.
posted by desuetude at 9:27 PM on December 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
Here's the thing. Even in your absolute dream job, there are going to be massive demotivational factors at times. Unqualified or lazy or apathetic or just plain nasty people, some of whom in positions of power, who will do stupid or self-serving or shortsighted or really fucked-up things. Even in your dream job, you are going to have tough days where you find the work boring and have to slog through it to get back to the good stuff. When you achieve a position of authority acknowledging your expertise, you will then find that managing people is a whole 'nother job on top of your own job that can be both awesome and another fresh hell. What's going to happen when you have a really tough few months on a job...will you decide that you're not "work material?" Or will it be everyone else's fault? You have to find a way to balance the rewarding and not-so-fun parts of responsibility if you're going to make wise decisions about the rest of your career.
posted by desuetude at 9:27 PM on December 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
Suck. It. Up.
I went through the same thing you did this year and what I've learned is that you NEED THE DEGREE, especially for the sort of work that you want to do. I dropped out in April because I was hating life and failing all of my classes and moved to a different city. I was able to get freelance web development that was the cushy office job equivalent to burger flipping. It paid barely enough for me to survive and there was no chance for a raise. I realized that my options were either spending the next twenty-odd years barely scraping by or go back to school and stop getting shut out of jobs because of a line on my resume without a graduation date.
I know you hate school. I hate school too. But you have to go. Work won't always be fun and exciting. You'll eventually hate that too. Might as well do something you hate that leads to a better future.
posted by youcancallmeal at 9:28 PM on December 25, 2007
I went through the same thing you did this year and what I've learned is that you NEED THE DEGREE, especially for the sort of work that you want to do. I dropped out in April because I was hating life and failing all of my classes and moved to a different city. I was able to get freelance web development that was the cushy office job equivalent to burger flipping. It paid barely enough for me to survive and there was no chance for a raise. I realized that my options were either spending the next twenty-odd years barely scraping by or go back to school and stop getting shut out of jobs because of a line on my resume without a graduation date.
I know you hate school. I hate school too. But you have to go. Work won't always be fun and exciting. You'll eventually hate that too. Might as well do something you hate that leads to a better future.
posted by youcancallmeal at 9:28 PM on December 25, 2007
Response by poster: Loto: I spent a year interning at a company that did some network intrusion stuff. My job was mainly data entry for new IDS sigs and such.
LarryC: I have a really hard time expressing my feelings about all this, but I think what you said comes close. I just need to take some time and see how life without school is. I can always go back, and that's something I don't really think about. It may be hard to go back, but if I do you're right that it will be from a totally different perspective.
curiousleo: I resent when people tell me to just "get through it". I am totally unhappy and depressed and they could care less. "Just graduate" and "stick with it" are things they say to me. These are exactly the kind of things people told me when I first asked for help with school about a year ago, and exactly the kind of advice that landed me in more debt, with the same unhappiness, and nothing to show for it. I don't plan on listening to this kind of advice again.
posted by crypticgeek at 9:31 PM on December 25, 2007
LarryC: I have a really hard time expressing my feelings about all this, but I think what you said comes close. I just need to take some time and see how life without school is. I can always go back, and that's something I don't really think about. It may be hard to go back, but if I do you're right that it will be from a totally different perspective.
curiousleo: I resent when people tell me to just "get through it". I am totally unhappy and depressed and they could care less. "Just graduate" and "stick with it" are things they say to me. These are exactly the kind of things people told me when I first asked for help with school about a year ago, and exactly the kind of advice that landed me in more debt, with the same unhappiness, and nothing to show for it. I don't plan on listening to this kind of advice again.
posted by crypticgeek at 9:31 PM on December 25, 2007
Sure, school sucks. Yes, lecturers are unfeeling, often incompetent people. Yes, you have to learn totally irrelevant things. I wonder sometimes why degrees are organised the way they are. It's almost like it's designed to see if people have tenacity.
Now. Depending on your whereabouts and your natural skill level, your lack of degree might have very little impact on your career, for the first ten years. Maybe. After that, when you see the nippers coming in, and screwing up the job you could do standing on your head, that's when it's going to be more difficult for you.
On the other hand, you're so demotivated, there's no point in finishing your degree right now, I guess, because you can't actually do it. You can't actually concentrate long enough to get the grades to graduate. Try these things. Go see a student advisor with what you've done so far. Ask them, "hat's the absolute minimum I need to do to graduate with any kind of degree?" It might be less than you think. Secondly, consider a degree in IT. (It doesn't seem that's what you're studying at the moment) and you might get credit for some of what you have done already. Thirdly, consider studying via distance education. Less contact with the lecturer or crappy students, you can work your butt off for six weeks (if you're self-disciplined) out of a semester of 13 and get everything done and sent in, and spend the rest of the time at your casual job or whatever.
You want to know if you can be happy and successful without a degree. I have to tell you, if you are above average intelligence, you may very well become quite bitter watching people who are obviously less capable than you leap frog you on the career ladder ONLY because they have that schooling. On the other hand, with technical qualifications, you can get to a certain level, but no further (ie, not move into management and you might think you don't want to now, but later, when you're 35, and you're bored because your technical work holds no challenge for you)...
Anyway, I'm biased. My oldest is starting at uni next year because his parents have crap jobs because they didn't get degrees back when they had time and space to do it more easily.
Remember, most worthwhile things are difficult. Get through this and you will feel like you can accomplish anything and everything. Oh and maybe get a physical. Sometimes, it's a biological thing like depression holding you back.
posted by b33j at 9:44 PM on December 25, 2007 [2 favorites]
Now. Depending on your whereabouts and your natural skill level, your lack of degree might have very little impact on your career, for the first ten years. Maybe. After that, when you see the nippers coming in, and screwing up the job you could do standing on your head, that's when it's going to be more difficult for you.
On the other hand, you're so demotivated, there's no point in finishing your degree right now, I guess, because you can't actually do it. You can't actually concentrate long enough to get the grades to graduate. Try these things. Go see a student advisor with what you've done so far. Ask them, "hat's the absolute minimum I need to do to graduate with any kind of degree?" It might be less than you think. Secondly, consider a degree in IT. (It doesn't seem that's what you're studying at the moment) and you might get credit for some of what you have done already. Thirdly, consider studying via distance education. Less contact with the lecturer or crappy students, you can work your butt off for six weeks (if you're self-disciplined) out of a semester of 13 and get everything done and sent in, and spend the rest of the time at your casual job or whatever.
You want to know if you can be happy and successful without a degree. I have to tell you, if you are above average intelligence, you may very well become quite bitter watching people who are obviously less capable than you leap frog you on the career ladder ONLY because they have that schooling. On the other hand, with technical qualifications, you can get to a certain level, but no further (ie, not move into management and you might think you don't want to now, but later, when you're 35, and you're bored because your technical work holds no challenge for you)...
Anyway, I'm biased. My oldest is starting at uni next year because his parents have crap jobs because they didn't get degrees back when they had time and space to do it more easily.
Remember, most worthwhile things are difficult. Get through this and you will feel like you can accomplish anything and everything. Oh and maybe get a physical. Sometimes, it's a biological thing like depression holding you back.
posted by b33j at 9:44 PM on December 25, 2007 [2 favorites]
Eventually I think you will find that you will need the degree, for career opportunities, for social reasons, for your own reasons. And statistically, dropping out increases the chance that you will never get a degree, and I'm sure you've seen how the income averages for people without college degrees are lower than for those with degrees. I do think you will eventually want to go back to school, but you can do that next year or in a decade. It will be harder, probably more expensive, and much more complicated (try scheduling classes once you are a parent), but by no means impossible.
That said, if you aren't happy and you aren't passing your classes, take some time off and do something cool. Think of this as a chance to do something awesome and risky and scary. Start a company, find a way to travel, or do what lots and lots of young people do and get a series of low-paid and low-status but really interesting blue-collar jobs. Whatever you do, make sure you aren't bored, you aren't sitting around your apartment and playing video games, and you are learning something every day. This is your big chance to do something fun and different, while you don't have many obligations or other commitments.
I'm not in the computer field, so I can't answer your questions about your career prospects. But I can assure you with absolute certainty that a) dropping out of college is not a guarantee of poverty or misery, no matter what anyone tells you; b) taking time off is better than getting a D+ GPA; and c) there are a lot of ways to be happy in this world, so why do something that is making you unhappy?
Also, if you are determined to be unhappy, being in or out of school won't make any difference. So along with deciding to drop out, make sure you take the steps to make yourself happy -- maybe therapy? Being social? Exercise? Whatever it is that floats your boat.
posted by Forktine at 9:46 PM on December 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
That said, if you aren't happy and you aren't passing your classes, take some time off and do something cool. Think of this as a chance to do something awesome and risky and scary. Start a company, find a way to travel, or do what lots and lots of young people do and get a series of low-paid and low-status but really interesting blue-collar jobs. Whatever you do, make sure you aren't bored, you aren't sitting around your apartment and playing video games, and you are learning something every day. This is your big chance to do something fun and different, while you don't have many obligations or other commitments.
I'm not in the computer field, so I can't answer your questions about your career prospects. But I can assure you with absolute certainty that a) dropping out of college is not a guarantee of poverty or misery, no matter what anyone tells you; b) taking time off is better than getting a D+ GPA; and c) there are a lot of ways to be happy in this world, so why do something that is making you unhappy?
Also, if you are determined to be unhappy, being in or out of school won't make any difference. So along with deciding to drop out, make sure you take the steps to make yourself happy -- maybe therapy? Being social? Exercise? Whatever it is that floats your boat.
posted by Forktine at 9:46 PM on December 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: desuetude: "you can get through the coursework while still pursuing more complex and fulfilling interests/passions in your free time"
Between going to class, going to work to support my education and living, and commuting...you think what I want to do when I finally get home is to explore a complex interest? By then I'm dead tired. I'd rather get some sleep so I can actually be alert and awake for tomorrow's daily grind. I just don't have the time.
"What's going to happen when you have a really tough few months on a job...will you decide that you're not "work material?""
This isn't a few tough months in school. It's a few years of being frustrated with the whole college experience. I don't want to take some boring bullcrap class that has nothing to do with my future career. I can explore art, culture, literature, music, etc on my own damn time (and I do). I don't want to go to class to sit and watch power point slides that cover the exact same material I already read in the book. So I don't. And when I don't show up for the classes, my professors drop my grade. They never care if I tell them I grasp the material fine, and that I can do the work independently. No, that would make them look bad. Students that can do the coursework on their own must be punished. I'm tired of this bullshit. I know in the end all it is, is an expensive line on my resume that will allow me to more easily get a job.
But I just REFUSE to believe that without a degree I will be doomed to failure. Anyone who says other wise can take their defeatist attitude and shove it. No, I don't believe it will take years of manual labor work to get a job in an career I'm interested in exploring. That's bullshit. Sure, it will be difficult to get a job against someone who has a degree. I realize that, I'm not stupid. But I refuse to believe the idea that need a degree to get a good job. I will work my way up the ladder. Build my resume and experience. I am willing to do that and I want advice from people who have done the same.
posted by crypticgeek at 9:48 PM on December 25, 2007
Between going to class, going to work to support my education and living, and commuting...you think what I want to do when I finally get home is to explore a complex interest? By then I'm dead tired. I'd rather get some sleep so I can actually be alert and awake for tomorrow's daily grind. I just don't have the time.
"What's going to happen when you have a really tough few months on a job...will you decide that you're not "work material?""
This isn't a few tough months in school. It's a few years of being frustrated with the whole college experience. I don't want to take some boring bullcrap class that has nothing to do with my future career. I can explore art, culture, literature, music, etc on my own damn time (and I do). I don't want to go to class to sit and watch power point slides that cover the exact same material I already read in the book. So I don't. And when I don't show up for the classes, my professors drop my grade. They never care if I tell them I grasp the material fine, and that I can do the work independently. No, that would make them look bad. Students that can do the coursework on their own must be punished. I'm tired of this bullshit. I know in the end all it is, is an expensive line on my resume that will allow me to more easily get a job.
But I just REFUSE to believe that without a degree I will be doomed to failure. Anyone who says other wise can take their defeatist attitude and shove it. No, I don't believe it will take years of manual labor work to get a job in an career I'm interested in exploring. That's bullshit. Sure, it will be difficult to get a job against someone who has a degree. I realize that, I'm not stupid. But I refuse to believe the idea that need a degree to get a good job. I will work my way up the ladder. Build my resume and experience. I am willing to do that and I want advice from people who have done the same.
posted by crypticgeek at 9:48 PM on December 25, 2007
Really, you are unhappy, but think about paying back that debt first and foremost. After all, if you're making $8.50 an hour, it'll only take you, let's see, well into your thirties to pay back your student loan.
When I graduated, I was broke. I owed almost 50 grand. I worked two jobs, which I walked to (I didn't have a car) and lived in a HUD project apartment with five roommates and a newborn baby. IT. SUCKED. I didn't even have a bedroom... I slept on the living room floor.
I stuck it out now and I'm better off than most of my friends that dropped out. It kills me when friends of mine can't even get an interview and I KNOW they are qualified and have tons of experience.
Unhappiness, quite frankly, is a choice. Hate your school? Change schools. Know that your situation is temporary, and plan for the absolute euphoria of graduation and ensuing financial security to get you through your darkest hours.
More importantly, good jobs that require degrees give you things like accrued time off (I get 3 weeks a year starting next year!). You'll get amazing health, dental and vision coverage. When you work overtime, they will probably bring in food for you. You may get to travel. Work is so much more than a paycheck... don't you want to give yourself the widest variety of options?
Seriously, just stop everything right this minute and do what saeculorum said: go to every major job posting board for the field you want, do a keyword search on the jobs, and see how many require a BA or BS.
Realize that if you apply for any of those jobs and you don't have a BA or BS, some girl they hired at a temp agency who makes $6/hr will use a program on her computer to keyword search the thousands of resumes that come in. When yours gets auto-sorted into the pile that doesn't contain the word degree, your carefully worded cover letter, enthusiastic email and wonderfully crafted resume will go into a trash folder that (at best) will result in you receiving an auto-generated "thanks but no thanks" email from that company. No human being will ever even read it; HR departments don't even see resumes any more until they have been vetted by a machine. This is absolute fact.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 9:49 PM on December 25, 2007
When I graduated, I was broke. I owed almost 50 grand. I worked two jobs, which I walked to (I didn't have a car) and lived in a HUD project apartment with five roommates and a newborn baby. IT. SUCKED. I didn't even have a bedroom... I slept on the living room floor.
I stuck it out now and I'm better off than most of my friends that dropped out. It kills me when friends of mine can't even get an interview and I KNOW they are qualified and have tons of experience.
Unhappiness, quite frankly, is a choice. Hate your school? Change schools. Know that your situation is temporary, and plan for the absolute euphoria of graduation and ensuing financial security to get you through your darkest hours.
More importantly, good jobs that require degrees give you things like accrued time off (I get 3 weeks a year starting next year!). You'll get amazing health, dental and vision coverage. When you work overtime, they will probably bring in food for you. You may get to travel. Work is so much more than a paycheck... don't you want to give yourself the widest variety of options?
Seriously, just stop everything right this minute and do what saeculorum said: go to every major job posting board for the field you want, do a keyword search on the jobs, and see how many require a BA or BS.
Realize that if you apply for any of those jobs and you don't have a BA or BS, some girl they hired at a temp agency who makes $6/hr will use a program on her computer to keyword search the thousands of resumes that come in. When yours gets auto-sorted into the pile that doesn't contain the word degree, your carefully worded cover letter, enthusiastic email and wonderfully crafted resume will go into a trash folder that (at best) will result in you receiving an auto-generated "thanks but no thanks" email from that company. No human being will ever even read it; HR departments don't even see resumes any more until they have been vetted by a machine. This is absolute fact.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 9:49 PM on December 25, 2007
I absolutely hate school. Maybe I didn't make this clear enough.
you'e going to the wrong school then.
I spent 7 years getting my BSCS. I did it "my way" . . . working 30-40hrs part-time (on-campus thank God), taking loads of PoliSci, History, Philosophy etc.
EVERY Math and Physics class I had to take was worthwhile in that they developed my mind and eg. gave me the mental grounding to figure out why an airplane on a treadmill can and will take off.
Many of the CS classes sucked at the time but now I see how they filled in the back story of what CS is.
Pain is weakness leaving the body. Suck it up. Ask not what you can do for college but what college can do for you. College is a walk in a fucking daisy-filled park compared to the Real World.
Motivating youself to get through this will give you the toughness tackle bigger problems down the road. Avoiding this challenge now will make you a quitter and a loser for the rest of your life.
Go to the campus gym more. Find a college that isn't sucking your financial future dry. Concentrate on general ed and the math and physics stuff until you're ready again to tackle CS.
posted by panamax at 10:02 PM on December 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
you'e going to the wrong school then.
I spent 7 years getting my BSCS. I did it "my way" . . . working 30-40hrs part-time (on-campus thank God), taking loads of PoliSci, History, Philosophy etc.
EVERY Math and Physics class I had to take was worthwhile in that they developed my mind and eg. gave me the mental grounding to figure out why an airplane on a treadmill can and will take off.
Many of the CS classes sucked at the time but now I see how they filled in the back story of what CS is.
Pain is weakness leaving the body. Suck it up. Ask not what you can do for college but what college can do for you. College is a walk in a fucking daisy-filled park compared to the Real World.
Motivating youself to get through this will give you the toughness tackle bigger problems down the road. Avoiding this challenge now will make you a quitter and a loser for the rest of your life.
Go to the campus gym more. Find a college that isn't sucking your financial future dry. Concentrate on general ed and the math and physics stuff until you're ready again to tackle CS.
posted by panamax at 10:02 PM on December 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
I think practically speaking you need a degree to do what you want to do. On the plus side, it doesn't necessarily have to be a degree in anything remotely related to the field. The sysadmin where I work has some sort of humanities degree, but he has a passion for network security stuff. He knows his shit front-to-back but would not have been called for the interview and given a chance to prove it without that degree. I think you might do well to diversify with a non-cs degree that gets you away from your trouble profs and generally broadens your horizons, since you don't like the limited view you have now.
If you're absolutely set on having a go at it without the degree, it's easy to break into IT as a support person, and from there you can try to demonstrate your administration and security competence to solve some of the recurring issues that crop up. Beware though that more often as not you're going to be demonstrating your competence to someone who already has the job you want or something like it and who has little interest in mentoring their own replacement. In other words, it's going to be tough going and you're going to run into resistance from above.
I was in a similar situation but s/security stuff/web app development/ pursuing a CS degree that wasn't working for me, and I switched to a design/journalism degree to make my college time more palatable, and clambored up a few of the lower rungs of IT work en route. I tried to get into a few positions on the strength of my work record junior and senior year and was told to check back when I had the degree-- and sure enough, when I got the degree the positions were there. It's anecdotal I know, but from what I've seen now working with my boss to fill some other positions that's the way it goes-- IT positions in general get a ton of applications, and the ones without a degree get buried.
posted by moift at 10:10 PM on December 25, 2007
If you're absolutely set on having a go at it without the degree, it's easy to break into IT as a support person, and from there you can try to demonstrate your administration and security competence to solve some of the recurring issues that crop up. Beware though that more often as not you're going to be demonstrating your competence to someone who already has the job you want or something like it and who has little interest in mentoring their own replacement. In other words, it's going to be tough going and you're going to run into resistance from above.
I was in a similar situation but s/security stuff/web app development/ pursuing a CS degree that wasn't working for me, and I switched to a design/journalism degree to make my college time more palatable, and clambored up a few of the lower rungs of IT work en route. I tried to get into a few positions on the strength of my work record junior and senior year and was told to check back when I had the degree-- and sure enough, when I got the degree the positions were there. It's anecdotal I know, but from what I've seen now working with my boss to fill some other positions that's the way it goes-- IT positions in general get a ton of applications, and the ones without a degree get buried.
posted by moift at 10:10 PM on December 25, 2007
Not having a college degree in this day and age, in this country, automatically closes doors, as others pointed out. Many companies are just skimming resumés or using keyword software. Especially for technical fields like IT, when half of everything is being outsourced, you need to be a step ahead of all the competition (there is A LOT) both in the country and out.
The drudgery that is the schooling systems of the United States is in itself a test of patience and dependable mindset for the young individual. And many large employers assume this. It's not always a fair assessment depending on the school and individual, of course, but being able to study through something is an indicator of how much real "work" you're willing to put into learning and sticking with something. Sticking with something--even if it's not fun. That's how the adult world plays. Note that I didn't say it's a measure of intellectual quality; let's face it, the American schools aren't all that fantastic on the average, and it's become almost an elevator system.
Yes, I knew a brilliant guy who just about failed high school because he was bored to death. But this doesn't really apply to college. Why? Because you pick your classes and your profs, much of the time. Larger schools will even give the option of a custom degree. This is where academic advisors and career counselors come in (don't underestimate their potential usefulness).
After high school, the key to satisfactory collegiate experience is more control on the student's part, though it seems most undergraduates aren't aware of it: adults can give poor advice based on their own expectations, and the student has so little experience with the real world that they feel trapped in the situation. Unless there's some stipulation, the reasoning is that one's unhappiness is one's own doing when the funds are in place. (A bit harsh, I know...)*
Yes, perhaps you've tried a few different options. It isn't uncommon to take some time off to work at some okay job and then go back to school these days, at least. Find a program with the exact degree you want, or something that is interesting even if it's not 100% related to the career you want.
*It could be social issues or even biological depression, as someone noted. I've found that the most horrendous classes I've taken were tolerable when I got to bitch together with classmates and we all worked together. And then it actually became fun.
posted by Ky at 10:12 PM on December 25, 2007
The drudgery that is the schooling systems of the United States is in itself a test of patience and dependable mindset for the young individual. And many large employers assume this. It's not always a fair assessment depending on the school and individual, of course, but being able to study through something is an indicator of how much real "work" you're willing to put into learning and sticking with something. Sticking with something--even if it's not fun. That's how the adult world plays. Note that I didn't say it's a measure of intellectual quality; let's face it, the American schools aren't all that fantastic on the average, and it's become almost an elevator system.
Yes, I knew a brilliant guy who just about failed high school because he was bored to death. But this doesn't really apply to college. Why? Because you pick your classes and your profs, much of the time. Larger schools will even give the option of a custom degree. This is where academic advisors and career counselors come in (don't underestimate their potential usefulness).
After high school, the key to satisfactory collegiate experience is more control on the student's part, though it seems most undergraduates aren't aware of it: adults can give poor advice based on their own expectations, and the student has so little experience with the real world that they feel trapped in the situation. Unless there's some stipulation, the reasoning is that one's unhappiness is one's own doing when the funds are in place. (A bit harsh, I know...)*
Yes, perhaps you've tried a few different options. It isn't uncommon to take some time off to work at some okay job and then go back to school these days, at least. Find a program with the exact degree you want, or something that is interesting even if it's not 100% related to the career you want.
*It could be social issues or even biological depression, as someone noted. I've found that the most horrendous classes I've taken were tolerable when I got to bitch together with classmates and we all worked together. And then it actually became fun.
posted by Ky at 10:12 PM on December 25, 2007
Maybe you missed this, but I'll highlight it for you "The last 5 months have been some of the most unhappiest months of my life and that's reflected in my grades." I passed one class, just one. I absolutely hate school. Maybe I didn't make this clear enough.
You know what's going to be worse than that? Working a dead-end, miserable IT job that you hate with no clear end in sight. School is terminal* but working isn't. And as many of the above people have said, a degree isn't necessarily a requirement, but your pickings are going to be mighty slim without a degree. You're basically going to be working a low-paying job with minimal responsibility. It almost certainly won't be interesting. It's going to be the work the company doesn't feel is important enough to pay someone more qualified to do.
*The caveat here being you do have to pass the classes you're taking. If you aren't passing them, then something needs to change. If you're absolutely, positively incapable of passing the classes you're taking now, then I would suggest the following. Go see a counselor at the university. It's almost certainly going to be free and it sounds like there might very well be some non-academic issues you need to work through. You sound way too miserable to simply be frustrated about having to take an occasional English class. At the very least, they're not simply going to tell you to "stick with it" (even though that is honestly what you need to do).
Also, I would advise strongly against abandoning school completely. If you do, it's going to exponentially difficult to return. If you're serious about a career in the areas you mentioned above, you really do need a degree. Drop down to one or two classes per term and try to find part-time work that's at least tangentially related to what you're interested in. In the extremely unlikely scenario that this work does appear to have some very appealing future prospects, you can always bail on university fully.
Sure, it will be difficult to get a job against someone who has a degree. I realize that, I'm not stupid. But I refuse to believe the idea that need a degree to get a good job.
While I would like to believe that hard word and tenacity can get someone anywhere, I also realize that chance plays a pretty huge part in things. Not having a degree really reduces you're chances of doing anything interesting.
I don't want to go to class to sit and watch power point slides that cover the exact same material I already read in the book. So I don't. And when I don't show up for the classes, my professors drop my grade.
There's always going to be some sense of the grass being greener on the other side, but really, if you think the working world is going to be some dramatic cure for what ails you, you may be in for a rather unpleasant surprise. In the "real world," the above becomes:
"I don't want to go to a meeting to sit and watch power point slides that cover the exact same material I already saw in the last meeting. So I don't. And when I don't show up for the meetings, the boss notices. He doesn't consider me for more interesting work and will eventually fire me."
I don't mean to sound like an ass, but there are some pretty unpleasant facts about your situation that you need to face. Without a degree, you'll be working the worst jobs in IT for the least pay with the poorest chances of advancement (i.e. doing something more interesting). It may suck, but it really is that simple.
posted by Nelsormensch at 10:12 PM on December 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
You know what's going to be worse than that? Working a dead-end, miserable IT job that you hate with no clear end in sight. School is terminal* but working isn't. And as many of the above people have said, a degree isn't necessarily a requirement, but your pickings are going to be mighty slim without a degree. You're basically going to be working a low-paying job with minimal responsibility. It almost certainly won't be interesting. It's going to be the work the company doesn't feel is important enough to pay someone more qualified to do.
*The caveat here being you do have to pass the classes you're taking. If you aren't passing them, then something needs to change. If you're absolutely, positively incapable of passing the classes you're taking now, then I would suggest the following. Go see a counselor at the university. It's almost certainly going to be free and it sounds like there might very well be some non-academic issues you need to work through. You sound way too miserable to simply be frustrated about having to take an occasional English class. At the very least, they're not simply going to tell you to "stick with it" (even though that is honestly what you need to do).
Also, I would advise strongly against abandoning school completely. If you do, it's going to exponentially difficult to return. If you're serious about a career in the areas you mentioned above, you really do need a degree. Drop down to one or two classes per term and try to find part-time work that's at least tangentially related to what you're interested in. In the extremely unlikely scenario that this work does appear to have some very appealing future prospects, you can always bail on university fully.
Sure, it will be difficult to get a job against someone who has a degree. I realize that, I'm not stupid. But I refuse to believe the idea that need a degree to get a good job.
While I would like to believe that hard word and tenacity can get someone anywhere, I also realize that chance plays a pretty huge part in things. Not having a degree really reduces you're chances of doing anything interesting.
I don't want to go to class to sit and watch power point slides that cover the exact same material I already read in the book. So I don't. And when I don't show up for the classes, my professors drop my grade.
There's always going to be some sense of the grass being greener on the other side, but really, if you think the working world is going to be some dramatic cure for what ails you, you may be in for a rather unpleasant surprise. In the "real world," the above becomes:
"I don't want to go to a meeting to sit and watch power point slides that cover the exact same material I already saw in the last meeting. So I don't. And when I don't show up for the meetings, the boss notices. He doesn't consider me for more interesting work and will eventually fire me."
I don't mean to sound like an ass, but there are some pretty unpleasant facts about your situation that you need to face. Without a degree, you'll be working the worst jobs in IT for the least pay with the poorest chances of advancement (i.e. doing something more interesting). It may suck, but it really is that simple.
posted by Nelsormensch at 10:12 PM on December 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
I dropped out of college as a senior around 20 years ago. I felt the same way as you do about college and what pushed me over the edge was when my backpack with all notes and books was stolen a few weeks before finals.
I haven't had much trouble getting hired in the technology field since then, even for positions that list a degree as a requirement. I stopped even mentioning education on my resume, and my last hire didn't even ask about it. So yes, it is possible to be reasonably happy and successful without a degree. However, I had a lot of things going for me that you may not: Programming was a relatively new profession and extremely scarce relative to demand, I was already self-taught, and had been working full-time for several years before dropping out.
So, your desire for only answers you already agree with notwithstanding, here's where I recommend you tough it out and get the degree. If I could choose again, I would have stayed in my relatively undemanding operator job, gritted my teeth and finished the degree. I also would have made much more of an effort to engage my fellow students and monopolize my professor's office hours because that is where the real benefit of college lies (besides the piece of paper). I also would switch my major to something more interesting, or which would augment rather then review my self-acquired knowledge. What the piece of paper says is a lot less important than its mere existence.
There are and have been many doors I would like to knock on that are closed to me due to lack of a degree, including management opportunities and more interesting fields. I also lose a bit of bargaining power for salary, which winds up affecting how management values my time. In retrospect, the time, effort, and unhappiness it would have cost me to finish was trivial compared to the effect this decision has had on the course of my career.
posted by Manjusri at 10:13 PM on December 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
I haven't had much trouble getting hired in the technology field since then, even for positions that list a degree as a requirement. I stopped even mentioning education on my resume, and my last hire didn't even ask about it. So yes, it is possible to be reasonably happy and successful without a degree. However, I had a lot of things going for me that you may not: Programming was a relatively new profession and extremely scarce relative to demand, I was already self-taught, and had been working full-time for several years before dropping out.
So, your desire for only answers you already agree with notwithstanding, here's where I recommend you tough it out and get the degree. If I could choose again, I would have stayed in my relatively undemanding operator job, gritted my teeth and finished the degree. I also would have made much more of an effort to engage my fellow students and monopolize my professor's office hours because that is where the real benefit of college lies (besides the piece of paper). I also would switch my major to something more interesting, or which would augment rather then review my self-acquired knowledge. What the piece of paper says is a lot less important than its mere existence.
There are and have been many doors I would like to knock on that are closed to me due to lack of a degree, including management opportunities and more interesting fields. I also lose a bit of bargaining power for salary, which winds up affecting how management values my time. In retrospect, the time, effort, and unhappiness it would have cost me to finish was trivial compared to the effect this decision has had on the course of my career.
posted by Manjusri at 10:13 PM on December 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
I appreciate some of you trying to talk me out of dropping out. But honestly, I don't think there's any reason why I would want to continue school right now. Maybe you missed this, but I'll highlight it for you "The last 5 months have been some of the most unhappiest months of my life and that's reflected in my grades." I passed one class, just one. I absolutely hate school. Maybe I didn't make this clear enough.
Let me share my history with you. I went to community college for my first two years to get basic requirements out of the way. I worked part time (30 hrs/wk) as a photo processor, worked for the student paper to get my tuition paid for, and then took a full load of classes. Oh, and I had a girlfriend. I was in the journalism program, but quickly realized that even if I'm good at writing and good at synthesizing information and interviewing people, I could never make a living in journalism.
Then I went away to a larger university (Oregon State) and ... well, hit what you're hitting. I was majoring in computer science and I couldn't do the math or formal logic. In my 2nd quarter there, I flunked three classes, passed the fourth (a writing class) by the skin of my teeth, and basically left before they could call in my academic probation and *tell* me to leave. Here's the clue: It wasn't the right major for me. Those five months that I was there *were* the unhappiest months of my life. I contemplated suicide. I played counter-strike all day. I was in psychological counseling. I couldn't bring myself to do squat towards my degree because it was all depressing.
Between going to class, going to work to support my education and living, and commuting...you think what I want to do when I finally get home is to explore a complex interest? By then I'm dead tired. I'd rather get some sleep so I can actually be alert and awake for tomorrow's daily grind. I just don't have the time.
So do what I did. Go to night school. I worked as a webmaster during the day for $12/hr for a company that was willing to be a bit flexible with my schedule -- and then went to classes at the local big-city university at night. I learned system administration on the side at that company. I found a very fun business program, logistics and supply chain management, taught by a very charismatic professor who was good at getting the concepts across as stories, who kept his class sizes small, and who tried his hardest to help people succeed. I graduated with a 3.4. When I didn't have homework, I did consulting jobs and drank heavily.
Of course, if you really want to ignore all this great advice, then go for it. Quit school. Go ahead, that job at wal-mart will always be there for you.
Hey, kid, let's put it this way: You asked a bunch of adults to rubberstamp your fantasy of what your future will be like without a degree. We said, no, it really isn't like that. You're telling us we're wrong and you hate school. We tell you to suck it up. Maybe you should listen to the advice?
To answer your original question: In this economy, in the tech field, it's more than likely that you will not be able to be happy and successful without a degree... especially if you're as heavily in debt as you are. There is no easy way. There is no such thing as a free lunch. There is a reason that everyone tells you to go through university.
(Oh! I forgot -- there is one easy way. Join the army. No, I'm serious. But that's the only 'easy' way I can think of.)
posted by SpecialK at 10:14 PM on December 25, 2007 [6 favorites]
Let me share my history with you. I went to community college for my first two years to get basic requirements out of the way. I worked part time (30 hrs/wk) as a photo processor, worked for the student paper to get my tuition paid for, and then took a full load of classes. Oh, and I had a girlfriend. I was in the journalism program, but quickly realized that even if I'm good at writing and good at synthesizing information and interviewing people, I could never make a living in journalism.
Then I went away to a larger university (Oregon State) and ... well, hit what you're hitting. I was majoring in computer science and I couldn't do the math or formal logic. In my 2nd quarter there, I flunked three classes, passed the fourth (a writing class) by the skin of my teeth, and basically left before they could call in my academic probation and *tell* me to leave. Here's the clue: It wasn't the right major for me. Those five months that I was there *were* the unhappiest months of my life. I contemplated suicide. I played counter-strike all day. I was in psychological counseling. I couldn't bring myself to do squat towards my degree because it was all depressing.
Between going to class, going to work to support my education and living, and commuting...you think what I want to do when I finally get home is to explore a complex interest? By then I'm dead tired. I'd rather get some sleep so I can actually be alert and awake for tomorrow's daily grind. I just don't have the time.
So do what I did. Go to night school. I worked as a webmaster during the day for $12/hr for a company that was willing to be a bit flexible with my schedule -- and then went to classes at the local big-city university at night. I learned system administration on the side at that company. I found a very fun business program, logistics and supply chain management, taught by a very charismatic professor who was good at getting the concepts across as stories, who kept his class sizes small, and who tried his hardest to help people succeed. I graduated with a 3.4. When I didn't have homework, I did consulting jobs and drank heavily.
Of course, if you really want to ignore all this great advice, then go for it. Quit school. Go ahead, that job at wal-mart will always be there for you.
Hey, kid, let's put it this way: You asked a bunch of adults to rubberstamp your fantasy of what your future will be like without a degree. We said, no, it really isn't like that. You're telling us we're wrong and you hate school. We tell you to suck it up. Maybe you should listen to the advice?
To answer your original question: In this economy, in the tech field, it's more than likely that you will not be able to be happy and successful without a degree... especially if you're as heavily in debt as you are. There is no easy way. There is no such thing as a free lunch. There is a reason that everyone tells you to go through university.
(Oh! I forgot -- there is one easy way. Join the army. No, I'm serious. But that's the only 'easy' way I can think of.)
posted by SpecialK at 10:14 PM on December 25, 2007 [6 favorites]
Between going to class, going to work to support my education and living, and commuting...you think what I want to do when I finally get home is to explore a complex interest? By then I'm dead tired. I'd rather get some sleep so I can actually be alert and awake for tomorrow's daily grind. I just don't have the time.
Hey, you were the one who was going to soldier on with no degree just on the basis of hard work.
I can explore art, culture, literature, music, etc on my own damn time (and I do).
Oh, now you have time for music and art. A few lines back you didn't. Yeah, yeah, I'm meaaan and just don't understand that your time is being wasted. You asked if you can be happy and successful without a degree. The whole damn thread at one in the morning on Christmas is taking time out to tell you that you're shooting yourself in the foot. And that perhaps you should work on that "being happy" thing, because after you're done blaming college, you're still going to have trouble finding salvation. I'm not talking about manual labor, I'm talking about a position ostensibly in your field that is so frustrating, dull, or frustratingly dull as to make college look gorgeous. And if you continue to assign all this power to external influences, it's going to land you on AskMe with "My life's passion sucks and I hate it. Who am I?" Or worse.
I'm not belittling your misery. Look, I swear, I'm not. Parts of college were miserable for me too. But if you could just take a step back from being so damn stubborn and consider that perhaps you don't know everything yet, you might give yourself a better chance to do what you want to do. Do you think that maybe it's even a little bit possible that the whole world isn't wrong?
posted by desuetude at 10:15 PM on December 25, 2007 [7 favorites]
Hey, you were the one who was going to soldier on with no degree just on the basis of hard work.
I can explore art, culture, literature, music, etc on my own damn time (and I do).
Oh, now you have time for music and art. A few lines back you didn't. Yeah, yeah, I'm meaaan and just don't understand that your time is being wasted. You asked if you can be happy and successful without a degree. The whole damn thread at one in the morning on Christmas is taking time out to tell you that you're shooting yourself in the foot. And that perhaps you should work on that "being happy" thing, because after you're done blaming college, you're still going to have trouble finding salvation. I'm not talking about manual labor, I'm talking about a position ostensibly in your field that is so frustrating, dull, or frustratingly dull as to make college look gorgeous. And if you continue to assign all this power to external influences, it's going to land you on AskMe with "My life's passion sucks and I hate it. Who am I?" Or worse.
I'm not belittling your misery. Look, I swear, I'm not. Parts of college were miserable for me too. But if you could just take a step back from being so damn stubborn and consider that perhaps you don't know everything yet, you might give yourself a better chance to do what you want to do. Do you think that maybe it's even a little bit possible that the whole world isn't wrong?
posted by desuetude at 10:15 PM on December 25, 2007 [7 favorites]
Oh, if only you were planning on going into some other career. Tragically, IT is chock full of frightfully clever people, and quite a number of them are smarter than you and have degrees.
College is not just about learning the material. It's about developing an intellectual process, and how to deal with a certain kind of system. A bachelor's isn't just a piece of paper that indicates that you've learned someting, it's a sort of litmus test.
If you think college is boring, if you think professors forgetting your name is annoying, just wait until you have a real IT job with real office politics and clueless customers.
You need to work on your attitude. You can learn from every class, even if it seems boring or vapid. Oh, learning the material for the class is as easy as reading the textbook? Well then, you should be getting As in that class, not Fs. I understand it -- the teachers are not motivating you. But ultimately, motivation must come from within. This is what you're going to learn in college.
You can do it. You're more than halfway there. My recommendation would be to trim your courseload down to the minimum number of classes required for your major. Then, skim through the college coursebook, and find any class that tickles your fancy that is open to all students and take it instead. You may find it's the class that you look forward to during the week and genuinely enjoy completely (I found all of my courses pretty interesting but I was lucky and chose a school that matched the way I learn).
posted by Deathalicious at 10:19 PM on December 25, 2007
College is not just about learning the material. It's about developing an intellectual process, and how to deal with a certain kind of system. A bachelor's isn't just a piece of paper that indicates that you've learned someting, it's a sort of litmus test.
If you think college is boring, if you think professors forgetting your name is annoying, just wait until you have a real IT job with real office politics and clueless customers.
You need to work on your attitude. You can learn from every class, even if it seems boring or vapid. Oh, learning the material for the class is as easy as reading the textbook? Well then, you should be getting As in that class, not Fs. I understand it -- the teachers are not motivating you. But ultimately, motivation must come from within. This is what you're going to learn in college.
You can do it. You're more than halfway there. My recommendation would be to trim your courseload down to the minimum number of classes required for your major. Then, skim through the college coursebook, and find any class that tickles your fancy that is open to all students and take it instead. You may find it's the class that you look forward to during the week and genuinely enjoy completely (I found all of my courses pretty interesting but I was lucky and chose a school that matched the way I learn).
posted by Deathalicious at 10:19 PM on December 25, 2007
crypticgeek, here's the thing:
You are not a unique snowflake.
Repeat this. You're not. Lots and lots and lots of people hate school. And lots and lots and lots of people are unable to enter careers (as opposed to jobs), because they left school. Especially in the USA, the first filter in an HR department is "Does crypticgeek have a degree? No? Roundfile."
Completing a degree tells an HR department a bunch of things: you are capable of committing to something, you can handle other people in social situations, you can handle sudden time crunches, you can prioritize, you can deal with stuff that (at best) is only tangentially related to what you think you need to be doing.. the list goes on.
You've got the opportunity to do something that not everyone gets to (and honestly? I would LOVE to have a life where I could have sneezed at $20K of debt when I was in my early 20's). Grow up, suck it up, and realize the simple equasion:
Short term pain = long term gain.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 10:21 PM on December 25, 2007 [4 favorites]
You are not a unique snowflake.
Repeat this. You're not. Lots and lots and lots of people hate school. And lots and lots and lots of people are unable to enter careers (as opposed to jobs), because they left school. Especially in the USA, the first filter in an HR department is "Does crypticgeek have a degree? No? Roundfile."
Completing a degree tells an HR department a bunch of things: you are capable of committing to something, you can handle other people in social situations, you can handle sudden time crunches, you can prioritize, you can deal with stuff that (at best) is only tangentially related to what you think you need to be doing.. the list goes on.
You've got the opportunity to do something that not everyone gets to (and honestly? I would LOVE to have a life where I could have sneezed at $20K of debt when I was in my early 20's). Grow up, suck it up, and realize the simple equasion:
Short term pain = long term gain.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 10:21 PM on December 25, 2007 [4 favorites]
actually, joining the Army is EXCELLENT advice. They'll pay off his/her student loan. They DYING (sorry) for bodies right now, and they have an immense shortage of mid-grade NCOs so advancement possibilities over the next 5-10 year career horizon are great.
There's more bullshit than college, but the IT is happening, and of course security and stuff is stressed. They're 99% a Microsoft shop from what I gather, but they do have unix in some areas.
My college bud joined up after 9/11 and is now an E-6. He's educated me to the fact that the mid-grade NCOs are the ones that are having most of the fun in the army . . . the newbies get all the shit jobs, the officers have to worry about politics and responsibility, while the NCOs are the ones that manage the day-to-day tasking and Getting Things Done.
posted by panamax at 10:28 PM on December 25, 2007
There's more bullshit than college, but the IT is happening, and of course security and stuff is stressed. They're 99% a Microsoft shop from what I gather, but they do have unix in some areas.
My college bud joined up after 9/11 and is now an E-6. He's educated me to the fact that the mid-grade NCOs are the ones that are having most of the fun in the army . . . the newbies get all the shit jobs, the officers have to worry about politics and responsibility, while the NCOs are the ones that manage the day-to-day tasking and Getting Things Done.
posted by panamax at 10:28 PM on December 25, 2007
+ on the financial front, I'd rather have $100k of debt that got me something than $20k of utterly sunk money. Defer your loan payments by staying in school and try to pay off that credit card debt.
I don't think your nigh-militant opposition to finishing a degree is doing you any good. The reason you're hearing a lot of cliched 'hang in there!' crap is because objectively your best option is to hang in there, cliche or no. Everbody who's been to college or seen a movie about college or heard about college on the internet knows there are bullshit classes and lot of it is definitely going through the motions, but you're asking for a pragmatic way to get from your current situation to a situation where you're employed doing computer security work, yeah? That's it! How much less bullshit and going-through-the-motions-esque do you think certifications are going to be? Entry level IT work? Is that going to be primarily non-bullshit? Pick your poison.
posted by moift at 10:30 PM on December 25, 2007
I don't think your nigh-militant opposition to finishing a degree is doing you any good. The reason you're hearing a lot of cliched 'hang in there!' crap is because objectively your best option is to hang in there, cliche or no. Everbody who's been to college or seen a movie about college or heard about college on the internet knows there are bullshit classes and lot of it is definitely going through the motions, but you're asking for a pragmatic way to get from your current situation to a situation where you're employed doing computer security work, yeah? That's it! How much less bullshit and going-through-the-motions-esque do you think certifications are going to be? Entry level IT work? Is that going to be primarily non-bullshit? Pick your poison.
posted by moift at 10:30 PM on December 25, 2007
Joining the army is awful advice. This is someone who can't hack it in something as laid back as college. You think they're going to be able to handle the armed forces?
Moreover, to the army you are a warm body. They may promise you all sorts of stuff at enlistment, but once your signature is on that piece of paper, they own you and can (functionally) do with you as they please. You may think you're going in as a CS, but there is quite lieterally nothing that will prevent them from shipping you off to Iraq once you've completed Basic.
Oh, and two words that should prevent any thinking person from joining the army: stop-loss.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 11:17 PM on December 25, 2007
Moreover, to the army you are a warm body. They may promise you all sorts of stuff at enlistment, but once your signature is on that piece of paper, they own you and can (functionally) do with you as they please. You may think you're going in as a CS, but there is quite lieterally nothing that will prevent them from shipping you off to Iraq once you've completed Basic.
Oh, and two words that should prevent any thinking person from joining the army: stop-loss.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 11:17 PM on December 25, 2007
Well, I'm going to please you with the first half of this and annoy you with the second half. Just read them both; that's all I ask.
True story: I'm related to someone who hated high school (he got a MUCH worse GPA than you) and was so de-motivated he managed to flunk out of community college. It was a pretty miserable time for him, but eventually he got a job and eventually he even got a job in computers. It was at the local golf factory, but it involved computers. After three-four years of that, he moved on to another entry-level computer job. After three-four years of THAT, he started getting jobs at Gateway, Intel, etc. He now works for the government doing something to do with computers (I'm *not* the computer one, so I couldn't tell you what).
He still doesn't have a degree, and he does make $70/hr. He worked contract jobs for YEARS, in an area absolutely rich in tech jobs, at a time when it was easier to get jobs (this all started twelve or so years ago), and the man was in boatloads of debt for years (enough to affect buying a house years later). So you think about it, look back to jenkinsEar's timeline (10-16 years), and think some more. Because that's it took my relative. TEN YEARS, for want of a degree.
Now, I'll add my two cents (and I'm in grad school, so take this as you may): you really need that degree. I told you HOW he got from where you are to where you want to be (more or less), but I also told you as nearly ever poster has, how HARD it was to get from A to B.
And guess what? Working 40 hours a week at a full-time job is a grind also (yep, I've done it...AND attended school full-time), and it's a far less interesting one than even college (and I HATED college--school can be SO boring). But for your chosen field, at the current time, you cannot get from A to B without either a lot of time (say, ten years) or a degree. Now, if this is all causing you emotional distress, you might be able to delay the degree a few years. I understand it's not easy to go to college when you're stressed, and you can't stand the classes, the professor is boring, etc etc. But eventually, I think you will find that a degree is actually LESS stress than not having it.
posted by librarylis at 11:19 PM on December 25, 2007
True story: I'm related to someone who hated high school (he got a MUCH worse GPA than you) and was so de-motivated he managed to flunk out of community college. It was a pretty miserable time for him, but eventually he got a job and eventually he even got a job in computers. It was at the local golf factory, but it involved computers. After three-four years of that, he moved on to another entry-level computer job. After three-four years of THAT, he started getting jobs at Gateway, Intel, etc. He now works for the government doing something to do with computers (I'm *not* the computer one, so I couldn't tell you what).
He still doesn't have a degree, and he does make $70/hr. He worked contract jobs for YEARS, in an area absolutely rich in tech jobs, at a time when it was easier to get jobs (this all started twelve or so years ago), and the man was in boatloads of debt for years (enough to affect buying a house years later). So you think about it, look back to jenkinsEar's timeline (10-16 years), and think some more. Because that's it took my relative. TEN YEARS, for want of a degree.
Now, I'll add my two cents (and I'm in grad school, so take this as you may): you really need that degree. I told you HOW he got from where you are to where you want to be (more or less), but I also told you as nearly ever poster has, how HARD it was to get from A to B.
And guess what? Working 40 hours a week at a full-time job is a grind also (yep, I've done it...AND attended school full-time), and it's a far less interesting one than even college (and I HATED college--school can be SO boring). But for your chosen field, at the current time, you cannot get from A to B without either a lot of time (say, ten years) or a degree. Now, if this is all causing you emotional distress, you might be able to delay the degree a few years. I understand it's not easy to go to college when you're stressed, and you can't stand the classes, the professor is boring, etc etc. But eventually, I think you will find that a degree is actually LESS stress than not having it.
posted by librarylis at 11:19 PM on December 25, 2007
What I'm about to say here is going to make me sound like a dick. I apologize. I *am* kind of a dick, but I'm just going to try and be straightforward here in an attempt to help. I read this:
But I just REFUSE to believe that without a degree I will be doomed to failure. Anyone who says other wise can take their defeatist attitude and shove it. No, I don't believe it will take years of manual labor work to get a job in an career I'm interested in exploring. That's bullshit. Sure, it will be difficult to get a job against someone who has a degree. I realize that, I'm not stupid. But I refuse to believe the idea that need a degree to get a good job. I will work my way up the ladder. Build my resume and experience. I am willing to do that and I want advice from people who have done the same.
and my first thought was, "huh, that's the sort of fantastic, team-player persona I'd love to have in my office."
I hope you noted the sarcasm I used there.
Look, you asked if you were crazy, and if you were going to be flipping burgers. And the folks here told you that these things were more likely than not, and they're giving you opinions. You asked for them, for crying out loud. No one's being defeatist.
Personally, were I on a hiring committee, it wouldn't be the lack of a degree that got you booted off my consideration list so much as your answer to "why did you decide college wasn't for you?" But what other people have said already is right; you probably won't get to that interview because you dropped out of college with a demonstrably poor attitude.
I won't doubt that you're smart, or perhaps a bit depressed about this whole college thing (which I'm guessing detracts from your performance and makes you more depressed about it, which makes you do worse and so forth until you reach some sort of conclusion). But perhaps instead of dropping out altogether, you could take a leave of absence and make sure you're still in good standing with your school so you can return. See if you can hack it in the real world for a year. If so, great! Carry on. If not, no harm, no foul. You can come back, most likely refreshed with a better perspective, and relieved from your current academic burnout, at which point you can finish with flying colors or limp through till graduation. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.
posted by universal_qlc at 11:30 PM on December 25, 2007
But I just REFUSE to believe that without a degree I will be doomed to failure. Anyone who says other wise can take their defeatist attitude and shove it. No, I don't believe it will take years of manual labor work to get a job in an career I'm interested in exploring. That's bullshit. Sure, it will be difficult to get a job against someone who has a degree. I realize that, I'm not stupid. But I refuse to believe the idea that need a degree to get a good job. I will work my way up the ladder. Build my resume and experience. I am willing to do that and I want advice from people who have done the same.
and my first thought was, "huh, that's the sort of fantastic, team-player persona I'd love to have in my office."
I hope you noted the sarcasm I used there.
Look, you asked if you were crazy, and if you were going to be flipping burgers. And the folks here told you that these things were more likely than not, and they're giving you opinions. You asked for them, for crying out loud. No one's being defeatist.
Personally, were I on a hiring committee, it wouldn't be the lack of a degree that got you booted off my consideration list so much as your answer to "why did you decide college wasn't for you?" But what other people have said already is right; you probably won't get to that interview because you dropped out of college with a demonstrably poor attitude.
I won't doubt that you're smart, or perhaps a bit depressed about this whole college thing (which I'm guessing detracts from your performance and makes you more depressed about it, which makes you do worse and so forth until you reach some sort of conclusion). But perhaps instead of dropping out altogether, you could take a leave of absence and make sure you're still in good standing with your school so you can return. See if you can hack it in the real world for a year. If so, great! Carry on. If not, no harm, no foul. You can come back, most likely refreshed with a better perspective, and relieved from your current academic burnout, at which point you can finish with flying colors or limp through till graduation. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.
posted by universal_qlc at 11:30 PM on December 25, 2007
Also, if I could favorite SpecialK and desuetude's responses like, fifty times each I would.
posted by universal_qlc at 11:41 PM on December 25, 2007
posted by universal_qlc at 11:41 PM on December 25, 2007
Yeah, I've got friends with 10+years of experience who've made it in IT.
And I've got friends with 2ish years of experience who are trying to make it in IT today. Most of them are hitting glass ceilings, not getting promoted, not getting raises or new jobs, or any sort of career advancement - and there's none in sight. This in an economy where unemployment is frighteningly low, and there's a major skills shortage in IT, in particular.
University sucked balls. I was similar to you; great first year, worsening over the next couple years. Managed one semester where I passed only one class. I was suicidally depressed, couldn't concentrate, life was horrible, I hated university.
I realised, at some point in that downward spiral, that I didn't really have a choice. The writing was on the wall for all to see - if I wanted my career to go nowhere, all I had to do was keep on with what I was doing. If I wanted it to go somewhere, well. Sweat-of-my-brow was not going to work, to say the least. I needed that degree. Without it, I would be doomed to helpdesk hell (and btw? that's what my contempories who dropped out at about the same time are doing today).
Looking at what you say above, there is precisely no way I'd hire you for any sort of sysadmin position. You need to show dogged persistence, day in and day out, at maintaining the status quo; you need to demonstrate creative ways of solving problems and overcoming obstacles, at any time of day or night. You need to show an active willingness to research and keep up with skills in your area, in your spare time (this is especially true for security). You show no ability or willingness for any of the above. Lectures are boring, wah - use the time to sit in the lecture and study something interesting if they are as content poor as you say. You have no time, wah - you commute, use that time to listen to podcasts of updates in your field of interest, or read about your field of interest. Contribute in your spare time to your field - there's always projects out there that could use another hand and teach you something at the same time. You're tired? Poor baby. It's soooo harrd to sit on one's ass angsting when one could be, I dunno, learning something.
Yes, people who make it independently of the system exist - but you don't show any signs of that energy or genius required to make that happen. Don't like the system? Unless you have that brilliance, that tenacity, to change the rules - too bad, kid.
posted by ysabet at 11:58 PM on December 25, 2007
And I've got friends with 2ish years of experience who are trying to make it in IT today. Most of them are hitting glass ceilings, not getting promoted, not getting raises or new jobs, or any sort of career advancement - and there's none in sight. This in an economy where unemployment is frighteningly low, and there's a major skills shortage in IT, in particular.
University sucked balls. I was similar to you; great first year, worsening over the next couple years. Managed one semester where I passed only one class. I was suicidally depressed, couldn't concentrate, life was horrible, I hated university.
I realised, at some point in that downward spiral, that I didn't really have a choice. The writing was on the wall for all to see - if I wanted my career to go nowhere, all I had to do was keep on with what I was doing. If I wanted it to go somewhere, well. Sweat-of-my-brow was not going to work, to say the least. I needed that degree. Without it, I would be doomed to helpdesk hell (and btw? that's what my contempories who dropped out at about the same time are doing today).
Looking at what you say above, there is precisely no way I'd hire you for any sort of sysadmin position. You need to show dogged persistence, day in and day out, at maintaining the status quo; you need to demonstrate creative ways of solving problems and overcoming obstacles, at any time of day or night. You need to show an active willingness to research and keep up with skills in your area, in your spare time (this is especially true for security). You show no ability or willingness for any of the above. Lectures are boring, wah - use the time to sit in the lecture and study something interesting if they are as content poor as you say. You have no time, wah - you commute, use that time to listen to podcasts of updates in your field of interest, or read about your field of interest. Contribute in your spare time to your field - there's always projects out there that could use another hand and teach you something at the same time. You're tired? Poor baby. It's soooo harrd to sit on one's ass angsting when one could be, I dunno, learning something.
Yes, people who make it independently of the system exist - but you don't show any signs of that energy or genius required to make that happen. Don't like the system? Unless you have that brilliance, that tenacity, to change the rules - too bad, kid.
posted by ysabet at 11:58 PM on December 25, 2007
If you're dead-set on dropping out, there's not a lot anyone can say that's going to talk you out of it. Yes, you can be happy and successful without a degree, but as others have noted, it's going to be considerably more difficult than it sounds like you are hoping it will be -- and, it must be noted, considerably more difficult than just getting the degree.
Given your commitment to pursuing this course, I have one piece of advice for you. You need to do some serious self-examination of why you have had such a hard time with follow-through in your academic career. Regardless of what you do, follow-through, nose-to-the-grindstone stuff is going to be key, particularly if you're trying to take a sort of non-traditional path. It may be that academia is just not for you, and there's no shame in that. However, the answer will not be any variation of the above "because I am too awesome and people are punishing me for it."
posted by LittleMissCranky at 1:29 AM on December 26, 2007
Given your commitment to pursuing this course, I have one piece of advice for you. You need to do some serious self-examination of why you have had such a hard time with follow-through in your academic career. Regardless of what you do, follow-through, nose-to-the-grindstone stuff is going to be key, particularly if you're trying to take a sort of non-traditional path. It may be that academia is just not for you, and there's no shame in that. However, the answer will not be any variation of the above "because I am too awesome and people are punishing me for it."
posted by LittleMissCranky at 1:29 AM on December 26, 2007
Maybe IT is not where you should be headed. Or the army. Have you thought about the trades? People in the trades make a lot more money than many IT people with or without college. If it's true that you're not afraid of manual labor and willing to work from the ground up, an apprenticeship as an electrician or plumber might be the best thing in the world for you. You would have to take some classes, but nobody would force you to take art or music.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:15 AM on December 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by hydropsyche at 4:15 AM on December 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
I'm in network security. I have a college degree, the guy I've sat next to for the last eight years does not. Of course, when we started it was a tiny company, no HR machine to filter through.
Some security certifications that people actually look for:
SANS certs
-------------------------
For example, the GCIA if you're looking into intrusion detection...an extremely technical and difficult certification to get. You take two to three mult choice tests and write a long paper. SANS. This is not necessarily easier than going to college. It won't take two more years out of your life, but don't expect it to be easy.
CISSP or CISA
------------------
Less technical and more like straight ahead memorization exercises, these will be easier. Buy one huge book, memorize, and take the test. ISC.
For best results, get one of each category above.
For what it's worth, before my tiny company became part of a larger corporation, I did all the hiring of the junior security personnel. I hired guys with no college and no experience all the time. I hired people who wanted to learn and proved through a short series of interview tests that they had the aptitude to learn.
posted by poppo at 4:44 AM on December 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
Some security certifications that people actually look for:
SANS certs
-------------------------
For example, the GCIA if you're looking into intrusion detection...an extremely technical and difficult certification to get. You take two to three mult choice tests and write a long paper. SANS. This is not necessarily easier than going to college. It won't take two more years out of your life, but don't expect it to be easy.
CISSP or CISA
------------------
Less technical and more like straight ahead memorization exercises, these will be easier. Buy one huge book, memorize, and take the test. ISC.
For best results, get one of each category above.
For what it's worth, before my tiny company became part of a larger corporation, I did all the hiring of the junior security personnel. I hired guys with no college and no experience all the time. I hired people who wanted to learn and proved through a short series of interview tests that they had the aptitude to learn.
posted by poppo at 4:44 AM on December 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
But I refuse to believe the idea that need a degree to get a good job. I will work my way up the ladder. Build my resume and experience. I am willing to do that and I want advice from people who have done the same.
Everyone thinks they're special. Let me tell you a story.
I was a star in high school. Top grades, no failed classes or tests, teacher's pet. I started hating school near the end of it. Then I hated college. I skipped classes, got booted from them, failed tests because I just didn't care. Dropped out of it for a year and a half, I could make it on my own. Got an entry level tech support job, I was great at it. But somehow my number never came up and I stayed at that entry level while people hired after me made it to 2nd level and supervisor positions.
I sucked it up, went back to college, I hated it still. Worst years of my life, easily, but I got through it and I have the degree. Took me twice as long as it should have but now I'm more than happy that I got it. I got another entry level position phone interviewer job, and got promoted fast to the tech streams, new levels, permanency (public sector job), and a solid future. I have been there almost 10 years and I am making a pretty good living with very little risk for my future.
I had friends like me, but they dropped school permanently. They were just like you. They would work up their way into the ranks and show everyone how their skills would take them where others would get with just a piece of paper. They were proud of that. But you know what? They had just as little interest in working hard to get a job as they had in working hard for a degree. They would argue until they were blue in the face that it wasn't their fault they couldn't get jobs. I tried to get help them but they really didn't try to work very hard, seemingly relying on their "mad skillz" to get the jobs for them. They transited through a number of low-level clerk jobs that never got them any further, spent a lot of time on EI, one of them became a drunk. To this day nearly 10 years later, none has done as well as I have, and none have stayed in a position more than 2 years. I considered them both much more skilled than I was in many areas, but in the business world you need more than just skills to cut it. Maybe if they had stuck with some low-level job they hated they would in the end have been able to get to a better one. But again, they were just as willing to stick with jobs they hated as they were with school, so they dropped out of those too.
So what is it? Are you so much better than them that this won't happen to you and all your plans will work out exactly as you thought them up, regardless of what everyone said? Maybe you're a harder worker than they were and will actually stick through 10 years of hard, boring work to finally get promoted into the stream you want, or at least have an interview for it and then possibly see yourself passed up in favor of someone with 3 years of experience and a degree.
I don't know which, but reading your messages it seems you're only really looking for validation and not a genuine answer to a genuine question. I can only hope that my experience can teach you some, but then again it is not unique and others have not. My best advice as far as making it without a degree would be to be prepared for years of hard work in a job you might hate and to have the fortitude to go through a number of interviews where you will be passed up for more qualified candidates without becoming discouraged. Then again that's bound to be both harder and longer than getting a degree, and you seem to be saying you're not able to manage that.
Good luck with your plan, and remember that degree is always there waiting, if you ever feel like your plan isn't working out so great after all.
But I just REFUSE to believe that without a degree I will be doomed to failure. Anyone who says other wise can take their defeatist attitude and shove it.
In short it's not that not having a degree dooms you to failure. It instead dooms you to hard work in a job that's far from your dream job for a long time before having a chance at success. Not being willing to get that degree demonstrates the lack of will to work hard, and in turn that predicts your failure. But hey, telling us to shove it is sure to make it all better, and that entry-level job not in your field that you will be forced to take is sure to be stimulating and interesting, unlike those classes not of your field that you find so dull and boring.
So all in all, you refuse to hear the experiences of those who have tried what you want to do and failed at it, because you already know that you won't fail. So the best advice here is for you to stick your fingers in your ears, sing a tune and ignore what everyone says. Everything is sure to work out.
posted by splice at 4:46 AM on December 26, 2007 [3 favorites]
Everyone thinks they're special. Let me tell you a story.
I was a star in high school. Top grades, no failed classes or tests, teacher's pet. I started hating school near the end of it. Then I hated college. I skipped classes, got booted from them, failed tests because I just didn't care. Dropped out of it for a year and a half, I could make it on my own. Got an entry level tech support job, I was great at it. But somehow my number never came up and I stayed at that entry level while people hired after me made it to 2nd level and supervisor positions.
I sucked it up, went back to college, I hated it still. Worst years of my life, easily, but I got through it and I have the degree. Took me twice as long as it should have but now I'm more than happy that I got it. I got another entry level position phone interviewer job, and got promoted fast to the tech streams, new levels, permanency (public sector job), and a solid future. I have been there almost 10 years and I am making a pretty good living with very little risk for my future.
I had friends like me, but they dropped school permanently. They were just like you. They would work up their way into the ranks and show everyone how their skills would take them where others would get with just a piece of paper. They were proud of that. But you know what? They had just as little interest in working hard to get a job as they had in working hard for a degree. They would argue until they were blue in the face that it wasn't their fault they couldn't get jobs. I tried to get help them but they really didn't try to work very hard, seemingly relying on their "mad skillz" to get the jobs for them. They transited through a number of low-level clerk jobs that never got them any further, spent a lot of time on EI, one of them became a drunk. To this day nearly 10 years later, none has done as well as I have, and none have stayed in a position more than 2 years. I considered them both much more skilled than I was in many areas, but in the business world you need more than just skills to cut it. Maybe if they had stuck with some low-level job they hated they would in the end have been able to get to a better one. But again, they were just as willing to stick with jobs they hated as they were with school, so they dropped out of those too.
So what is it? Are you so much better than them that this won't happen to you and all your plans will work out exactly as you thought them up, regardless of what everyone said? Maybe you're a harder worker than they were and will actually stick through 10 years of hard, boring work to finally get promoted into the stream you want, or at least have an interview for it and then possibly see yourself passed up in favor of someone with 3 years of experience and a degree.
I don't know which, but reading your messages it seems you're only really looking for validation and not a genuine answer to a genuine question. I can only hope that my experience can teach you some, but then again it is not unique and others have not. My best advice as far as making it without a degree would be to be prepared for years of hard work in a job you might hate and to have the fortitude to go through a number of interviews where you will be passed up for more qualified candidates without becoming discouraged. Then again that's bound to be both harder and longer than getting a degree, and you seem to be saying you're not able to manage that.
Good luck with your plan, and remember that degree is always there waiting, if you ever feel like your plan isn't working out so great after all.
But I just REFUSE to believe that without a degree I will be doomed to failure. Anyone who says other wise can take their defeatist attitude and shove it.
In short it's not that not having a degree dooms you to failure. It instead dooms you to hard work in a job that's far from your dream job for a long time before having a chance at success. Not being willing to get that degree demonstrates the lack of will to work hard, and in turn that predicts your failure. But hey, telling us to shove it is sure to make it all better, and that entry-level job not in your field that you will be forced to take is sure to be stimulating and interesting, unlike those classes not of your field that you find so dull and boring.
So all in all, you refuse to hear the experiences of those who have tried what you want to do and failed at it, because you already know that you won't fail. So the best advice here is for you to stick your fingers in your ears, sing a tune and ignore what everyone says. Everything is sure to work out.
posted by splice at 4:46 AM on December 26, 2007 [3 favorites]
I don't understand why you expect to be happier in the workforce than you have been at school. Working as a sysadmin is likely to be far more demoralizing, if anything. People like Dilbert because it reminds them of their own work, not because of the art or the humor.
I'm an academic, so I've been sheltered from that to an extent. But I have a lot of friends who either have been sysadmins, or still are. None of them seem very happy with that line of work.
It seems likely that if you do drop out, you will end up just as miserable, but with fewer options.
posted by Coventry at 5:51 AM on December 26, 2007
I'm an academic, so I've been sheltered from that to an extent. But I have a lot of friends who either have been sysadmins, or still are. None of them seem very happy with that line of work.
It seems likely that if you do drop out, you will end up just as miserable, but with fewer options.
posted by Coventry at 5:51 AM on December 26, 2007
As a hiring geek, when faced with a stack of resumes, I make it shorter by throwing away all those without a college degree.
Take it for what you will.
posted by grumpy at 6:03 AM on December 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
Take it for what you will.
posted by grumpy at 6:03 AM on December 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
Can I be happy and successful without a degree?
Yes.
How?
You need enough talent, luck and persistence to be able to take a different route into a career.
I dropped out of university after a couple of years; it just wasn't working out for me, and I wasn't motivated as I couldn't relate it to the kinds of things I'd ultimately want to be doing. It then took me a few years to find the right direction, but eventually I started my own business, had a couple of opportunities, and steadily built my skills and reputation from there. I love what I do, and the absence of a degree has been completely irrelevant.
Getting a degree would be the most efficient way for you to climb a corporate ladder or go directly into a decent job, but not everyone is suited to conventional career paths, some people have to fail for a while to work out how to succeed, and a degree isn't everything (sensible employers go for talent, enthusiasm and experience). Just make sure you thoroughly question your own motivations and are fully aware of the consequences.
posted by malevolent at 6:16 AM on December 26, 2007
Yes.
How?
You need enough talent, luck and persistence to be able to take a different route into a career.
I dropped out of university after a couple of years; it just wasn't working out for me, and I wasn't motivated as I couldn't relate it to the kinds of things I'd ultimately want to be doing. It then took me a few years to find the right direction, but eventually I started my own business, had a couple of opportunities, and steadily built my skills and reputation from there. I love what I do, and the absence of a degree has been completely irrelevant.
Getting a degree would be the most efficient way for you to climb a corporate ladder or go directly into a decent job, but not everyone is suited to conventional career paths, some people have to fail for a while to work out how to succeed, and a degree isn't everything (sensible employers go for talent, enthusiasm and experience). Just make sure you thoroughly question your own motivations and are fully aware of the consequences.
posted by malevolent at 6:16 AM on December 26, 2007
You are crazy. You will end up flipping burgers. Here is what I would do instead:
View college as a challenge, a game, that you intend to excel at. Hopefully this can keep you interested long enough to actually finish college. To that end, your goal in this game is to avoid as many things as you dislike as possible, while still getting Bs, and graduating as quickly as possible.
Here are some things to help you along this path:
CLEP tests. Some colleges will give you actual credits (lots, even) for taking these. Find out which ones your college will accept, use as many as possible to substitute for actual courses.
Your college catalog and ratemyprofessor.com. Think of it like picking out a fantasy football team, or betting on a horse race. The goal here is to find out as much about each potential class and professor as possible, and pick only winning combinations. Sign up as early as possible (to get your first choices) and for the maximum number of classes possible, combined with the next step...
The add/drop form. Be ready to drop a class at the first sign that the teacher really sucks. Far preferable to sticking it out only to fail (you can get your money back in the first week or so). Starting with a huge course load and then dropping most should leave you with a normal, but excellent, set of classes.
Odd hours/night classes, off campus classes, compressed/accelerated classes. Usually these are aimed at older students, who are more accustomed to working on their own (this sounds like you). Often, the professor will be different from the one who normally teaches the class, a bonus if you're looking to avoid a sucky prof. who seems to teach every class... The compressed classes can help you power through your apathy. Lastly, you might find something a little closer to home so you don't spend so much time commuting. (Distance education classes work well, too, but given your apathy already I don't know that these are such a good choice.)
Going to class. Yeah. You hate going to class. However, that's because you study too much. If you read the book, go to class, and are bored stiff because the professor only repeats what you know, this is the clue to stop reading the book beforehand (not to stop going to class). A professor who sees your smiling face every class will assume that you're putting in work at home, too, and if it only takes you the one read through of the power point slides to get the material, so much the better. You can even work on other stuff at the same time, so long as it looks like you're paying attention and you're actually paying enough attention to do the coursework (papers, tests, whatever). Again, this is a game... if you actually go to class every class, how little work can you put in outside of class to get a B? Bask in your newfound spare time.
(A fun side game is to see how much you can pick up of the topic in a severely limited amount of time. Like, given five minutes of study time while waiting for class to start and an open book during class, can you successfully answer every question the prof. asks during the lecture, before anyone else in the class?)
Aim a little lower. Get a different degree. Aim for Bs instead of As. Assuming you're not going to grad school (I think we can say this is a safe bet, yes?) having a degree matters more than what it's in, or what your GPA was.
posted by anaelith at 6:53 AM on December 26, 2007 [3 favorites]
View college as a challenge, a game, that you intend to excel at. Hopefully this can keep you interested long enough to actually finish college. To that end, your goal in this game is to avoid as many things as you dislike as possible, while still getting Bs, and graduating as quickly as possible.
Here are some things to help you along this path:
CLEP tests. Some colleges will give you actual credits (lots, even) for taking these. Find out which ones your college will accept, use as many as possible to substitute for actual courses.
Your college catalog and ratemyprofessor.com. Think of it like picking out a fantasy football team, or betting on a horse race. The goal here is to find out as much about each potential class and professor as possible, and pick only winning combinations. Sign up as early as possible (to get your first choices) and for the maximum number of classes possible, combined with the next step...
The add/drop form. Be ready to drop a class at the first sign that the teacher really sucks. Far preferable to sticking it out only to fail (you can get your money back in the first week or so). Starting with a huge course load and then dropping most should leave you with a normal, but excellent, set of classes.
Odd hours/night classes, off campus classes, compressed/accelerated classes. Usually these are aimed at older students, who are more accustomed to working on their own (this sounds like you). Often, the professor will be different from the one who normally teaches the class, a bonus if you're looking to avoid a sucky prof. who seems to teach every class... The compressed classes can help you power through your apathy. Lastly, you might find something a little closer to home so you don't spend so much time commuting. (Distance education classes work well, too, but given your apathy already I don't know that these are such a good choice.)
Going to class. Yeah. You hate going to class. However, that's because you study too much. If you read the book, go to class, and are bored stiff because the professor only repeats what you know, this is the clue to stop reading the book beforehand (not to stop going to class). A professor who sees your smiling face every class will assume that you're putting in work at home, too, and if it only takes you the one read through of the power point slides to get the material, so much the better. You can even work on other stuff at the same time, so long as it looks like you're paying attention and you're actually paying enough attention to do the coursework (papers, tests, whatever). Again, this is a game... if you actually go to class every class, how little work can you put in outside of class to get a B? Bask in your newfound spare time.
(A fun side game is to see how much you can pick up of the topic in a severely limited amount of time. Like, given five minutes of study time while waiting for class to start and an open book during class, can you successfully answer every question the prof. asks during the lecture, before anyone else in the class?)
Aim a little lower. Get a different degree. Aim for Bs instead of As. Assuming you're not going to grad school (I think we can say this is a safe bet, yes?) having a degree matters more than what it's in, or what your GPA was.
posted by anaelith at 6:53 AM on December 26, 2007 [3 favorites]
But I just REFUSE to believe that without a degree I will be doomed to failure. Anyone who says other wise can take their defeatist attitude and shove it.
Good for you. Can I get fries with my burger? Thanks.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 8:07 AM on December 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
Good for you. Can I get fries with my burger? Thanks.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 8:07 AM on December 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I say bail out for now and pay off your debt. That's probably the most responsible course of action at this point.
Considering that it's going to take you a while, I think you'll have plenty of time to figure out what you want to do next, so I wouldn't worry too much about that right now. Getting a degree is definitely a good idea, but not right now, and maybe not this degree.
Anyway, if you really have a passion for computing, and an internet connection, it's not like anyone can stop you from learning.
Also, I really dig poppo's answer above. If you want to try and beat the odds, he's pretty much laid out how to do it.
posted by benign at 8:25 AM on December 26, 2007
Considering that it's going to take you a while, I think you'll have plenty of time to figure out what you want to do next, so I wouldn't worry too much about that right now. Getting a degree is definitely a good idea, but not right now, and maybe not this degree.
Anyway, if you really have a passion for computing, and an internet connection, it's not like anyone can stop you from learning.
Also, I really dig poppo's answer above. If you want to try and beat the odds, he's pretty much laid out how to do it.
posted by benign at 8:25 AM on December 26, 2007
I somehow doubt that crypticgeek has read all subsequent responses, but I thought I'd summarize the points throughout for the unknowing/impatient (not necessarily in any order):
P.S.: I do find it entertaining that the original question is "Can I be happy and successful without a degree?" but the OP flat-out refuses to accept the majority of answers that counter his current state of mind.
posted by Ky at 8:48 AM on December 26, 2007
- Reality check: competition and expectations
- Possible = more work and time and being exceptional
- Debt
- Opportunities
- Certifications can help--try the hardcore ones
- College = short-term investment = "income insurance"
- Surviving college = indicator of base perseverance for real world
- Doesn't matter what your degree is in
- Everyone hates school, so where does that put you?
- You're taking the wrong classes/in the wrong major/in the wrong school
- Take a break, pay off some debt, try again
- Flip burgers
- Join the army
- ???
- Profit
P.S.: I do find it entertaining that the original question is "Can I be happy and successful without a degree?" but the OP flat-out refuses to accept the majority of answers that counter his current state of mind.
posted by Ky at 8:48 AM on December 26, 2007
My SO is in internet securities. He makes more than 50k and less than 100k, just for an idea. He is 30 now and dropped out of college when he was 20 to persue this.
He has stayed employed, but just barely. Listen to me, college is not hard, it is time consuming, just do it. Everytime he gets laid off (and it happens a lot in this industry) he has a whole stack of jobs that he is compeltely qualified for, yet if he sends in an application an HR person will just check the little box that says "no degree" and that is the end of that.
Yes, you can do it, but if you want to move into management or not have one huge glaring ommission on your record, just do it. I know in Georgia (which means they have to have this in other states) their are completely online degrees in Information Systems or what not offered by the State Universities, just do it, please. Just pass, just get a degree in something. It breaks my heart watching him sort through the 100k plus jobs that he can't have because he never finished that goddamn degree.
posted by stormygrey at 9:53 AM on December 26, 2007
He has stayed employed, but just barely. Listen to me, college is not hard, it is time consuming, just do it. Everytime he gets laid off (and it happens a lot in this industry) he has a whole stack of jobs that he is compeltely qualified for, yet if he sends in an application an HR person will just check the little box that says "no degree" and that is the end of that.
Yes, you can do it, but if you want to move into management or not have one huge glaring ommission on your record, just do it. I know in Georgia (which means they have to have this in other states) their are completely online degrees in Information Systems or what not offered by the State Universities, just do it, please. Just pass, just get a degree in something. It breaks my heart watching him sort through the 100k plus jobs that he can't have because he never finished that goddamn degree.
posted by stormygrey at 9:53 AM on December 26, 2007
crypticgeek, I have been you, and I have successfully done what you're planning to do.
I detested college, found classes worthless and the entire academic experience utterly lifeless. I flunked out of college once, went back part time, still didn't like it, then got a real job doing computer stuff, no degree, and have spent 20 years in the same field, and only changed employers once, and that due to a corporate merger.
I was very lucky. I had some relevant work experience in college, and I had some connections (that I made in college) that helped me get an interview. I got exactly one opportunity, and it happened to work out very well.
If I had been laid off during the big downturn of the early 90s, I would have been doomed, pretty much. Even today, I'm sure there are many companies that would toss my resume because I don't have a degree.
I will unquestionably side with others who are telling you that that piece of paper really is valuable, and you are making your life in the long term much more difficult if you want to work in high tech.
Now, that said, to go it without the magic paper, I'll make these suggestions:
- Startups, small firms. These kinds of small software houses often need low level people to do things like product builds, run testing, and other sorts of "software janitor" type tasks. You might be able to work up the ladder, or at least in a year or so when the startup fails, you've got some real experience on your resume.
- Do you have enough credits to get an associates (2 year) degree? Or, if you're close, suck it up for a class or two for a semester while you work somewhere to pay the bills to get the 2 year paper. It's not as "real" as the four year, but it's better than nothing and can get you in the door at some places.
- The rise of open source type software projects can get you in some doors by contributing your time and skills to projects that can be jockeyed into real jobs. People have done it, but they have (a) shown over time that they're capable of doing the work (by actually doing the work, and quite possibly for free), and (b) they've gotten lucky. If network security on linux is your thing, look at, e.g., the netfilter development projects. Get involved, find a project you like and contribute, make connections and you might find an open door down the road.
- Mom & Pop size Internet Service Providers have need for security weenies and systems adminstration and all that good stuff. They probably don't pay all that well, but, again, it may get you some experience and connections.
- Getting into the corporate world without a degree will be very difficult, but maybe you can find a "software janitor" style of job, get some tuition assistance and finish the four year one class at a time with some corporate aid, then transfer to "real" work when you've got the paper. Yah, yah, it's a "go to college" answer, but college part time is a lot more tolerable.
- I don't have much experience with the various certifications (I don't have any), but I have friends whose children are studying for Cisco certifications as part of their high school curriculum. My impression is that the certifications, at least in the corporate circles I inhabit, are frosting on the cake, as it were: something in addition to the degree, not as a substitute.
- Lastly, remember: if you have no degree, your sole credential is your prior experience (and, really, that's what a degree is: a certification from the school that you've got such & such experience). You must have something to point to and say, "This is why I'm as good as I say." You will need good references.
posted by doorsnake at 10:54 AM on December 26, 2007
I detested college, found classes worthless and the entire academic experience utterly lifeless. I flunked out of college once, went back part time, still didn't like it, then got a real job doing computer stuff, no degree, and have spent 20 years in the same field, and only changed employers once, and that due to a corporate merger.
I was very lucky. I had some relevant work experience in college, and I had some connections (that I made in college) that helped me get an interview. I got exactly one opportunity, and it happened to work out very well.
If I had been laid off during the big downturn of the early 90s, I would have been doomed, pretty much. Even today, I'm sure there are many companies that would toss my resume because I don't have a degree.
I will unquestionably side with others who are telling you that that piece of paper really is valuable, and you are making your life in the long term much more difficult if you want to work in high tech.
Now, that said, to go it without the magic paper, I'll make these suggestions:
- Startups, small firms. These kinds of small software houses often need low level people to do things like product builds, run testing, and other sorts of "software janitor" type tasks. You might be able to work up the ladder, or at least in a year or so when the startup fails, you've got some real experience on your resume.
- Do you have enough credits to get an associates (2 year) degree? Or, if you're close, suck it up for a class or two for a semester while you work somewhere to pay the bills to get the 2 year paper. It's not as "real" as the four year, but it's better than nothing and can get you in the door at some places.
- The rise of open source type software projects can get you in some doors by contributing your time and skills to projects that can be jockeyed into real jobs. People have done it, but they have (a) shown over time that they're capable of doing the work (by actually doing the work, and quite possibly for free), and (b) they've gotten lucky. If network security on linux is your thing, look at, e.g., the netfilter development projects. Get involved, find a project you like and contribute, make connections and you might find an open door down the road.
- Mom & Pop size Internet Service Providers have need for security weenies and systems adminstration and all that good stuff. They probably don't pay all that well, but, again, it may get you some experience and connections.
- Getting into the corporate world without a degree will be very difficult, but maybe you can find a "software janitor" style of job, get some tuition assistance and finish the four year one class at a time with some corporate aid, then transfer to "real" work when you've got the paper. Yah, yah, it's a "go to college" answer, but college part time is a lot more tolerable.
- I don't have much experience with the various certifications (I don't have any), but I have friends whose children are studying for Cisco certifications as part of their high school curriculum. My impression is that the certifications, at least in the corporate circles I inhabit, are frosting on the cake, as it were: something in addition to the degree, not as a substitute.
- Lastly, remember: if you have no degree, your sole credential is your prior experience (and, really, that's what a degree is: a certification from the school that you've got such & such experience). You must have something to point to and say, "This is why I'm as good as I say." You will need good references.
posted by doorsnake at 10:54 AM on December 26, 2007
I'm a programmer, and I work with some awesome, successful programmers who don't have degrees. I know a talented & successful sysadmin who doesn't have a degree. So clearly it can be done. But these people are remarkable; they're not only smart, but ridiculously hard workers and self-teachers. They are continuously working on their own time to soak up new information and improve their skills. They work their asses off. They are wizards.
Basically, to be successful, especially without a degree, it's not enough to be smart. You have to be smart and get things done. Folks who have graduated from college have at least demonstrated that they've done something substantial. You haven't done that, so what have you done? Are you already kicking ass in the field you describe as your "passion"? Do you run a slew of Linux servers in your bedroom? Do you obsessively seek out security exploits? Do you stay up all night contributing to open-source projects?
My sense from reading your question is that you are smart, and that's it. You interned at a company and did some data entry work. If you're going to succeed without a degree, you need to do better than that. It's true that many companies will not even consider candidates without degrees -- but many will, especially smaller companies where each team member's contributions are incredibly important. But you'll have to amaze those companies with your smarts and your deep knowledge of your field and all of the great things you have done.
Basically, I think the counterexamples to the rule, "you need a degree to succeed," are prolific rockstars in their fields, who didn't leave college because it was too boring or too hard, but because they couldn't pull themselves away from personal projects that they were passionate about. If you're not one of these sorts of people, then I think you are going to have a tough time, and most of the above warnings probably apply.
You might be better off just taking some time off from college. Lots of folks that go to college immediately after high school don't find it enjoyable (see this recent thread). Take a break, do some traveling if you can afford to, or work on your own projects, and see how it goes. (I did exactly this, and ultimately returned to and finished college after three years off.) Finally, for what it's worth, the rockstars I know who have succeeded without degrees are not exactly enthusiastic about abandoning college. The sysadmin I mentioned, who's now in his early thirties, recently enrolled in the local university as an undergrad philosophy major.
posted by medpt at 11:45 AM on December 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
Basically, to be successful, especially without a degree, it's not enough to be smart. You have to be smart and get things done. Folks who have graduated from college have at least demonstrated that they've done something substantial. You haven't done that, so what have you done? Are you already kicking ass in the field you describe as your "passion"? Do you run a slew of Linux servers in your bedroom? Do you obsessively seek out security exploits? Do you stay up all night contributing to open-source projects?
My sense from reading your question is that you are smart, and that's it. You interned at a company and did some data entry work. If you're going to succeed without a degree, you need to do better than that. It's true that many companies will not even consider candidates without degrees -- but many will, especially smaller companies where each team member's contributions are incredibly important. But you'll have to amaze those companies with your smarts and your deep knowledge of your field and all of the great things you have done.
Basically, I think the counterexamples to the rule, "you need a degree to succeed," are prolific rockstars in their fields, who didn't leave college because it was too boring or too hard, but because they couldn't pull themselves away from personal projects that they were passionate about. If you're not one of these sorts of people, then I think you are going to have a tough time, and most of the above warnings probably apply.
You might be better off just taking some time off from college. Lots of folks that go to college immediately after high school don't find it enjoyable (see this recent thread). Take a break, do some traveling if you can afford to, or work on your own projects, and see how it goes. (I did exactly this, and ultimately returned to and finished college after three years off.) Finally, for what it's worth, the rockstars I know who have succeeded without degrees are not exactly enthusiastic about abandoning college. The sysadmin I mentioned, who's now in his early thirties, recently enrolled in the local university as an undergrad philosophy major.
posted by medpt at 11:45 AM on December 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Loto at 8:51 PM on December 25, 2007