Stop touching that brake!
December 3, 2007 9:59 PM Subscribe
motorcycleFilter: Why should you, when riding a motorcycle, keep your fingers off the brake and clutch while riding?
So a friend and I who have both recently bought motorcycles and taken the MSF class at different times, both were told by the instructors, that proper form while riding is to keep your fingers wrapped around the grips and not on the brake and clutch levers. As we are both cyclists ( him a roadie and me a mountain biker), we both are very used to always having a firm grip on the brake levers. We asked our instructors why this was better, but never got any answers.
Why did they try and drill this into us during the course? Wouldn't it be safest if you had a grip on the brake at all times, obviously as long as you had a good hold on the grips?
So a friend and I who have both recently bought motorcycles and taken the MSF class at different times, both were told by the instructors, that proper form while riding is to keep your fingers wrapped around the grips and not on the brake and clutch levers. As we are both cyclists ( him a roadie and me a mountain biker), we both are very used to always having a firm grip on the brake levers. We asked our instructors why this was better, but never got any answers.
Why did they try and drill this into us during the course? Wouldn't it be safest if you had a grip on the brake at all times, obviously as long as you had a good hold on the grips?
For a lot of people, especially those on a bike for the first time in the MSF class, panic = SQUEEZE DOWN HARD NOW! = over the top.
posted by IvyMike at 10:19 PM on December 3, 2007
posted by IvyMike at 10:19 PM on December 3, 2007
Amen to SpecialK's explanation. And, over time, you save a lot of brake and clutch wear.
posted by paulsc at 10:21 PM on December 3, 2007
posted by paulsc at 10:21 PM on December 3, 2007
In an emergency situation, you only want to brake when the bike is standing upright. If you brake while the bike is leaned over, the next thing you know, you're wrapped around a tree.
In an emergency, I want to stop as soon as possible. The action of using the front brake moderately stands the motorcycle upright, at which point I can use the full power of the brake. Waiting until the bike is straight upright before braking in an emergency situation seems like a way to ensure you end up "wrapped around a tree."
posted by letitrain at 10:31 PM on December 3, 2007
In an emergency, I want to stop as soon as possible. The action of using the front brake moderately stands the motorcycle upright, at which point I can use the full power of the brake. Waiting until the bike is straight upright before braking in an emergency situation seems like a way to ensure you end up "wrapped around a tree."
posted by letitrain at 10:31 PM on December 3, 2007
Also, I've been told that the best response in an emergency is often not to chop the throttle or brake, but to accelerate. The reasoning is that you can see an escape route and out-accelerate just about any other vehicle to that point. "Don't look at the danger - look for the opening and go to it." By braking or decelerating, you're exposing yourself to being rear-ended, particularly since your motorcycle can stop much faster than other vehicles.
posted by letitrain at 10:36 PM on December 3, 2007
posted by letitrain at 10:36 PM on December 3, 2007
What SpecialK said, plus two more reasons. By having your hands on the brake and clutch levers, you are likely to be constantly engaging those levers (ever so slightly). This puts undue stress on all kinds of parts, which will result in premature wear. Finally, you will have better control over steering if you have your hands fully on the handles. As SpecialK has mentioned, turning a motorcycle is a very different game from turning a bicycle, because of the added weight.
posted by epimorph at 11:06 PM on December 3, 2007
posted by epimorph at 11:06 PM on December 3, 2007
"Also, I've been told that the best response in an emergency is often not to chop the throttle or brake, but to accelerate. ..."
Just the ticket for a well maintained litre bike climbing Monteagle Mountain on a sunny summer Sunday, with 4 lanes of Interstate concrete to play with. Sub-optimal for a two up Goldwing pulling a camping trailer on the Skyline Drive in leaf peeping season. Suicidal for a 500cc thumper on the last thousand miles of econo tires in the middle of New Jersey mall traffic on a rainy fall Saturday morning.
The "right" move always considers weather, motorcycle capabilities, speed, traffic and rider skill.
posted by paulsc at 11:20 PM on December 3, 2007
Just the ticket for a well maintained litre bike climbing Monteagle Mountain on a sunny summer Sunday, with 4 lanes of Interstate concrete to play with. Sub-optimal for a two up Goldwing pulling a camping trailer on the Skyline Drive in leaf peeping season. Suicidal for a 500cc thumper on the last thousand miles of econo tires in the middle of New Jersey mall traffic on a rainy fall Saturday morning.
The "right" move always considers weather, motorcycle capabilities, speed, traffic and rider skill.
posted by paulsc at 11:20 PM on December 3, 2007
In an emergency, I want to stop as soon as possible. The action of using the front brake moderately stands the motorcycle upright, at which point I can use the full power of the brake. Waiting until the bike is straight upright before braking in an emergency situation seems like a way to ensure you end up "wrapped around a tree."
Respectfully, an emphatic NO. When leaned over, braking hard will dump you. A lot of people have tried to get around this and the result is always the same (watch motorcycle racing sometime, mid corner if they have to stop they pop upright first). Your tires are better able to stop you than sliding on your body, or on your bike and body. To get the most tire on the road, you need to be upright.
Ideally, you roll off the throttle and THEN grab the brake and clutch. At the very least this keeps you from accidentally revving up as you brake, which as you can imagine is counter-productive. In the MSF course you practice this, rolling off then grabbing the brake.
In the spring, if you haven't been riding all winter, it doesn't hurt to spend a half hour+ in an empty parking lot practicing this. It also reminds you of your motorcycle's handling characteristics under braking/heavy braking, something you want to have a good handle on.
David Hough has written a couple great books about motorcycle safety that explain all this much better than I can.
posted by From Bklyn at 1:06 AM on December 4, 2007
Respectfully, an emphatic NO. When leaned over, braking hard will dump you. A lot of people have tried to get around this and the result is always the same (watch motorcycle racing sometime, mid corner if they have to stop they pop upright first). Your tires are better able to stop you than sliding on your body, or on your bike and body. To get the most tire on the road, you need to be upright.
Ideally, you roll off the throttle and THEN grab the brake and clutch. At the very least this keeps you from accidentally revving up as you brake, which as you can imagine is counter-productive. In the MSF course you practice this, rolling off then grabbing the brake.
In the spring, if you haven't been riding all winter, it doesn't hurt to spend a half hour+ in an empty parking lot practicing this. It also reminds you of your motorcycle's handling characteristics under braking/heavy braking, something you want to have a good handle on.
David Hough has written a couple great books about motorcycle safety that explain all this much better than I can.
posted by From Bklyn at 1:06 AM on December 4, 2007
The more you come to know how the bike handles, the more of this sort of advice you can start to carefully disregard.
You can cover the brakes, you can brake and change gear in corners, you can accelerate out of trouble, you can stop with the 'wrong' foot down, etc etc - but an instructor absolutely does not want his novice trainee to be doing any of these things so it's easier and better for them to say "never".
I always cover the brakes when I'm filtering and it's saved my arse on several occasions.
posted by dickasso at 1:07 AM on December 4, 2007 [1 favorite]
You can cover the brakes, you can brake and change gear in corners, you can accelerate out of trouble, you can stop with the 'wrong' foot down, etc etc - but an instructor absolutely does not want his novice trainee to be doing any of these things so it's easier and better for them to say "never".
I always cover the brakes when I'm filtering and it's saved my arse on several occasions.
posted by dickasso at 1:07 AM on December 4, 2007 [1 favorite]
Dickasso ist spot on. If you want people to learn the reactions of a motorcycle to different inputs, you absolutely have to separate those. The best way to do this is to force them to either use the throttle or the brake, and separating steering and accelerating/braking.
After you have mastered that lesson you will at some point see motorcycle physics is much more complicated, and you start doing things that are non-intuitive or strongly discouraged for beginners. Trail Braking comes to mind, using the back brakes in corners for stabilization, and other advances techniques.
On a side note, I always cover the brakes in cities, you lose too much precious time by changing your grip.
posted by Nightwind at 2:47 AM on December 4, 2007
After you have mastered that lesson you will at some point see motorcycle physics is much more complicated, and you start doing things that are non-intuitive or strongly discouraged for beginners. Trail Braking comes to mind, using the back brakes in corners for stabilization, and other advances techniques.
On a side note, I always cover the brakes in cities, you lose too much precious time by changing your grip.
posted by Nightwind at 2:47 AM on December 4, 2007
I still don't cover the brake in cities, unless I'm filtering. I just get WAY faster at changing inputs. It's the same as people who say you loose too much time by switching your foot on the accelerator...
Also, I've been told that the best response in an emergency is often not to chop the throttle or brake, but to accelerate
As has been said: Time and place, my good friend, time and place. On an interstate on a fast bike? Sure! In a parking lot? Fuck NO! What that was meant to describe to you is that you should never "lay the bike down" in a panic situation to escape said panic situation. You often have FAR more lean angle available than you think you do, and rolling on the throttle (smoothly!) will help stabilize your traction situation to where you can make use of it. On a high-double-digit canyon-carving expedition in a remote area, rolling on the throttle and leaning harder is the preferable response to a tighter-than-expected corner. The other two responses would be: panic, hit the brakes while leaned -- and lowside, or not doing anything and riding into the other lane -- and becoming a hood ornament.
Keep in mind, re: rear-ending, that it's YOUR responsibility as a rider to watch 360 degrees around you and in a panic situation make sure you don't come to a stop faster than the cars behind you can. Or to go between cars when stopping if you're afraid the cars behind you won't stop. Situational awareness is what keeps us squishy little two wheelers' body parts intact.
BTW, Brent, don't be mad about what your instructor could or could not show you. The MSF has restricted heavily what instructors can say during class. If you'd like a class that actually COULD answer that question, petition your lawmakers to adopt Team Oregon's training class, which is far more complete and has statistically shown that it produces better riders than the MSF's curriculum.
posted by SpecialK at 6:15 AM on December 4, 2007
Also, I've been told that the best response in an emergency is often not to chop the throttle or brake, but to accelerate
As has been said: Time and place, my good friend, time and place. On an interstate on a fast bike? Sure! In a parking lot? Fuck NO! What that was meant to describe to you is that you should never "lay the bike down" in a panic situation to escape said panic situation. You often have FAR more lean angle available than you think you do, and rolling on the throttle (smoothly!) will help stabilize your traction situation to where you can make use of it. On a high-double-digit canyon-carving expedition in a remote area, rolling on the throttle and leaning harder is the preferable response to a tighter-than-expected corner. The other two responses would be: panic, hit the brakes while leaned -- and lowside, or not doing anything and riding into the other lane -- and becoming a hood ornament.
Keep in mind, re: rear-ending, that it's YOUR responsibility as a rider to watch 360 degrees around you and in a panic situation make sure you don't come to a stop faster than the cars behind you can. Or to go between cars when stopping if you're afraid the cars behind you won't stop. Situational awareness is what keeps us squishy little two wheelers' body parts intact.
BTW, Brent, don't be mad about what your instructor could or could not show you. The MSF has restricted heavily what instructors can say during class. If you'd like a class that actually COULD answer that question, petition your lawmakers to adopt Team Oregon's training class, which is far more complete and has statistically shown that it produces better riders than the MSF's curriculum.
posted by SpecialK at 6:15 AM on December 4, 2007
In a tight turn on a mountain bike, if you brake hard and get into a rear-tire skid, you can probably still use your body weight to get yourself upright and moving forward. When your bike outweighs you by a factor of 3 or more, that won’t happen. You’ll be bucked off the bike.
The MSF course emphasizes that you should get upright and straight before braking, but if you have to brake while in a turn, do it gently and get upright as quickly as you can.
posted by breaks the guidelines? at 6:50 AM on December 4, 2007
The MSF course emphasizes that you should get upright and straight before braking, but if you have to brake while in a turn, do it gently and get upright as quickly as you can.
posted by breaks the guidelines? at 6:50 AM on December 4, 2007
Also, on a motorcycle, when you're not covering the brake with your hands, you have complete control of the throttle and you STILL have braking available with your right foot. So unlike on a mountain bike, you can still brake when your hands are gripping the handles.
posted by premortem at 7:41 AM on December 4, 2007
posted by premortem at 7:41 AM on December 4, 2007
Team Oregon's training class
That's what I took, years ago. In it, they taught first to keep the inputs separate, and then later (once the students had all mastered the basics) to, at times, cover the brakes and clutch.
Personally, I do both, depending on the situation. If I'm coming up on a bunch of intersections where cars could be coming out unexpectedly, or where there is cross-turning traffic that might not see me, I definitely cover the brakes and clutch. But "covering the levers" means to me having my first two fingers hovering over (rather than gripping) the lever, with my pinkie and ring fingers still on the grip. It's something I do only in situations where I am anticipating the immediate need to stop suddenly. The rest of the time, I am alert and prepared, but don't cover the brakes or clutch.
posted by Forktine at 7:45 AM on December 4, 2007
That's what I took, years ago. In it, they taught first to keep the inputs separate, and then later (once the students had all mastered the basics) to, at times, cover the brakes and clutch.
Personally, I do both, depending on the situation. If I'm coming up on a bunch of intersections where cars could be coming out unexpectedly, or where there is cross-turning traffic that might not see me, I definitely cover the brakes and clutch. But "covering the levers" means to me having my first two fingers hovering over (rather than gripping) the lever, with my pinkie and ring fingers still on the grip. It's something I do only in situations where I am anticipating the immediate need to stop suddenly. The rest of the time, I am alert and prepared, but don't cover the brakes or clutch.
posted by Forktine at 7:45 AM on December 4, 2007
Favorited SpecialK,
You will learn as you gain experience that motorcycle riding is much different that bicycle riding. You simply wont have the control you need trying to grip both the bars and the brakes/clutch all at the same time. Plus you will inadvertently put wear on your clutch, as well as possibly overgrip the front brakes and this can spell lowside or even flip you off the bike if you did a panic grab.
Not to say that when situations require (heavy traffic, few "outs" around you) that you shouldn't "cover" the brake and clutch, it's just that those are the exceptions not the rule. With practice you will learn your motorcycle and new skills. The important thing for the MSF course is to instill the basic fundamentals that will become your instict reactions that you wont even think about that will save your butt in 90% of situations. Practice those and you will be better off than half the riders I see around my town, following too close, with no helmet or safety gear who arent leaving themselves an out at all for most situations. Don't forget to take the advanced MSF course after you are comfortable and have some riding time logged, it will reinforce your skills.
posted by clanger at 7:57 AM on December 4, 2007
You will learn as you gain experience that motorcycle riding is much different that bicycle riding. You simply wont have the control you need trying to grip both the bars and the brakes/clutch all at the same time. Plus you will inadvertently put wear on your clutch, as well as possibly overgrip the front brakes and this can spell lowside or even flip you off the bike if you did a panic grab.
Not to say that when situations require (heavy traffic, few "outs" around you) that you shouldn't "cover" the brake and clutch, it's just that those are the exceptions not the rule. With practice you will learn your motorcycle and new skills. The important thing for the MSF course is to instill the basic fundamentals that will become your instict reactions that you wont even think about that will save your butt in 90% of situations. Practice those and you will be better off than half the riders I see around my town, following too close, with no helmet or safety gear who arent leaving themselves an out at all for most situations. Don't forget to take the advanced MSF course after you are comfortable and have some riding time logged, it will reinforce your skills.
posted by clanger at 7:57 AM on December 4, 2007
Response by poster: clanger Re:to take the advanced MSF course
My instructor told us that the advanced course was basically the same course, you just ride your bike. Is that true, or is there more to it than that?
posted by brent_h at 10:32 AM on December 4, 2007
My instructor told us that the advanced course was basically the same course, you just ride your bike. Is that true, or is there more to it than that?
posted by brent_h at 10:32 AM on December 4, 2007
Keeping your hands over the levers especially on roads with potholes will trip the brake light giving mixed signals to people behind you. I think the biggest issue is control. With both hands firmly gripping the handlebars you will always have better control of the bike. In emergency situations it is usually better to use the rear brake for the most part.
posted by JJ86 at 10:47 AM on December 4, 2007
posted by JJ86 at 10:47 AM on December 4, 2007
In emergency situations it is usually better to use the rear brake for the most part.
I disagree strongly with that, I'm afraid.. The rear brake on its own offers very little in the way of stopping power and locking the back wheel rarely improves matters. Maybe on a slippery surface it's a good idea, otherwise I'd say not.
posted by dickasso at 10:51 AM on December 4, 2007
I disagree strongly with that, I'm afraid.. The rear brake on its own offers very little in the way of stopping power and locking the back wheel rarely improves matters. Maybe on a slippery surface it's a good idea, otherwise I'd say not.
posted by dickasso at 10:51 AM on December 4, 2007
Dickasso, "usually" and "for the most part" should obviously not be construed as meaning exclusively, which I why I did insert those words. Believe it or not.
posted by JJ86 at 2:06 PM on December 4, 2007
posted by JJ86 at 2:06 PM on December 4, 2007
Just an extra comment about that is that it depends on many factors, the most important being whether the bike has ABS or not. While the OP did not mention it there are new bikes out there with it, which does change the dynamics completely.
posted by JJ86 at 2:08 PM on December 4, 2007
posted by JJ86 at 2:08 PM on December 4, 2007
Arguments over the rear brake are reliable time-fillers on motorcycle list-serves and boards. But I have to agree with dickasso, in that there are a small set of weird cases where using the rear brake only is better than using both brakes together (icy road, perhaps), but in the overwhelmingly vast majority of real-world cases, using both brakes together (and staying upright, rather than the classic "I had to lay it down") will produce much shorter stopping distances with more control.
Whether or not the bike has ABS doesn't change this (again, except in unusual situations) -- shorter stopping distances come from using both brakes together; if the bike has a linked braking system, you may not have the option of using the rear brake only (each system is different). I have heard claims that older and chopperized Harleys have such extreme rear-weight biases that their braking is really different, but again, even if true, that is an unusual exception to a fairly solid general rule.
This connects with the question at hand in that whether you are covering your brakes or not, you should be prepared to use both front and rear brakes in an emergency stop. They may have changed the curriculum in recent years, but when I took the experience riders course from MSF, a strong focus on emergency stopping was an integral part of the course, and was the thing that all of us "aw, I've been riding for years, there's nothing new they can teach me" guys walked away impressed with.
posted by Forktine at 2:32 PM on December 4, 2007
Whether or not the bike has ABS doesn't change this (again, except in unusual situations) -- shorter stopping distances come from using both brakes together; if the bike has a linked braking system, you may not have the option of using the rear brake only (each system is different). I have heard claims that older and chopperized Harleys have such extreme rear-weight biases that their braking is really different, but again, even if true, that is an unusual exception to a fairly solid general rule.
This connects with the question at hand in that whether you are covering your brakes or not, you should be prepared to use both front and rear brakes in an emergency stop. They may have changed the curriculum in recent years, but when I took the experience riders course from MSF, a strong focus on emergency stopping was an integral part of the course, and was the thing that all of us "aw, I've been riding for years, there's nothing new they can teach me" guys walked away impressed with.
posted by Forktine at 2:32 PM on December 4, 2007
The MSF class, esp. the advanced class, has gotten significantly watered down as of recent years (any further discussion of that would get into politics, 40 somethings clad in leather, and harleys, so I'll avoid it...) One of my close friends at the time I was getting into motorcycling was the guy (Ax, for those who know him) who helped develop a lot of the Team Oregon curriculum. He's now the associate director for the Idaho state motorcycle training program, and they're adopting Team Oregon's program now... I got a lot of the info from the horse's mouth.
In emergency situations it is usually better to use the rear brake for the most part.
Absolutely incorrect. I have the scars from sliding down what seemed like half of Mt. St. Helens to prove it. In full gear, thank god.
hands, you have complete control of the throttle and you STILL have braking available with your right foot. So unlike on a mountain bike, you can still brake when your hands are gripping the handles.
Yes, BUT the worst thing you can do is slam on the rear brake. Only about 30% of your stopping traction, and progressively less as you slow, is usable on the rear. Weight on a motorcycle shifts forward as you stop. A rear-wheel skid can often turn into a wobble and a lowside. Let me repeat: stomping on the rear brake pedal without also using the front brake is a great way to wreck your bike. And if you don't believe me, and your bike won't be totally trashed by laying it on it's side, go practice crashing in a parking lot. The bike's gonna be on it's side at some point, may as well be now. ;)
When you've been riding everything with two wheels for long enough that you can spank a few guys I know up in Oregon in the twisties, then you can start breaking the rules. One of 'em rides a late 70's goldwing 1000. They called the bike a 'flexi flyer' for a reason -- big engine, lots of go, very little stop and very little stability. He, at 60, rides that thing faster than anyone I know on the beat-up roads around Mt. St. Helens -- with an unlit cigar clamped between his teeth, an old 3/4 helmet firmly strapped on his head, and his granddaughter on the back. He took off like a rocketship and I never even saw his taillights again until the next time I stopped for breakfast at the same gas station -- and he did it again.
posted by SpecialK at 5:04 PM on December 4, 2007 [1 favorite]
In emergency situations it is usually better to use the rear brake for the most part.
Absolutely incorrect. I have the scars from sliding down what seemed like half of Mt. St. Helens to prove it. In full gear, thank god.
hands, you have complete control of the throttle and you STILL have braking available with your right foot. So unlike on a mountain bike, you can still brake when your hands are gripping the handles.
Yes, BUT the worst thing you can do is slam on the rear brake. Only about 30% of your stopping traction, and progressively less as you slow, is usable on the rear. Weight on a motorcycle shifts forward as you stop. A rear-wheel skid can often turn into a wobble and a lowside. Let me repeat: stomping on the rear brake pedal without also using the front brake is a great way to wreck your bike. And if you don't believe me, and your bike won't be totally trashed by laying it on it's side, go practice crashing in a parking lot. The bike's gonna be on it's side at some point, may as well be now. ;)
When you've been riding everything with two wheels for long enough that you can spank a few guys I know up in Oregon in the twisties, then you can start breaking the rules. One of 'em rides a late 70's goldwing 1000. They called the bike a 'flexi flyer' for a reason -- big engine, lots of go, very little stop and very little stability. He, at 60, rides that thing faster than anyone I know on the beat-up roads around Mt. St. Helens -- with an unlit cigar clamped between his teeth, an old 3/4 helmet firmly strapped on his head, and his granddaughter on the back. He took off like a rocketship and I never even saw his taillights again until the next time I stopped for breakfast at the same gas station -- and he did it again.
posted by SpecialK at 5:04 PM on December 4, 2007 [1 favorite]
P. S. - Do learn from my experience. I at one point had the part number for a 1992-1994 Yamaha Seca II's handlebars memorized. They were $56 a pop and were the one part that I never could bend straight after a street vs. non-oily-side interface experiment.
Keep the oily side down. It works better that way.
posted by SpecialK at 5:09 PM on December 4, 2007
Keep the oily side down. It works better that way.
posted by SpecialK at 5:09 PM on December 4, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
First, you need to have good CONTROL over the throttle at all times. This is really important when you're riding a modern sportbike, which will have an incredibly sensitive throttle and be prone to wheelie-ing at a slight provocation. So you need to ride with loose arms, (you should be able to flap your elbows like you're doing the chicken dance at ANY point) which is hard to do when you're using your thumb only to hold the incredibly sensitive throttle grip and have your fingers wrapped around the brake. Plus, the brake lever gets in the way of you chopping the throttle, which is usually a much better response in an emergency situation. Which leads us to...
Second, if you have your hand on it, you're likely to use it. When you're on a bicycle, this is generally not a problem. When you're on a motorcycle leaned over in a corner and going 60mph, it's 60-to-oh-shit in the time it takes you to use too much brake, either front or back. In an emergency situation, you only want to brake when the bike is standing upright. If you brake while the bike is leaned over, the next thing you know, you're wrapped around a tree. So practice going from leaned into a turn to upright and then brake. What you'll find is that your first action is to chop the throttle and reverse the countersteering you were using. THEN and only then do you apply any braking.
Really, it's a good habit to get into to make sure you separate the functions. Just practice moving from one to the next quickly. You're dealing with a lot more mass and a lot less traction-per-pound than you would be with a bicycle... it's COMPLETELY different physics to ride something that weighs 500 lbs + 50 lbs of gas + 180 lbs of rider with an independent engine than it is to ride something that weighs 20lbs + 180 lbs of rider.
posted by SpecialK at 10:14 PM on December 3, 2007 [6 favorites]