Do my cats prevent me from getting tail?
October 15, 2007 9:30 PM   Subscribe

Is a single guy owning cats a turnoff?

So, I'm a single 23 year old guy living with two cats in an efficiency (Hooray 200 ft^2). Is this automatically a turn off for either hookups, or more serious relationships? The cats are from a previous, longterm relationship where my ex more or less bailed on them. I like animals, so there is no way I'm going to give them up, but I was curious if this is an impediment to either dating or random hookups?

I find myself nervous bringing girls home to my place because of the two cats, and was wondering if this is justified?
posted by Loto to Human Relations (71 answers total) 5 users marked this as a favorite

I don't see why it'd be a turn off in any way, in fact I'd think girls would see it as a positive aspect--you're caring enough that you can take care of two cats, after all.
posted by DMan at 9:31 PM on October 15, 2007 [1 favorite]

You're seriously overthinking.
posted by Flunkie at 9:32 PM on October 15, 2007 [2 favorites]

NO. Women might actually find it attractive because it shows you like animals and aren't a stereotype. I always enjoyed spending time with my boyfriend's cats.
posted by melissam at 9:33 PM on October 15, 2007

Nah, not in my experience. One of the guys I used to work with was a linux sysadmin, a LARPer, loved anime (specifically: gundam wing) and had two cats, and ended up with the hottest woman I've had the privilege of meeting.
posted by SpecialK at 9:33 PM on October 15, 2007 [2 favorites]

I'd agree with all of the above (especially since my boyfriend has a kitty). It's definitely good if you are looking for someone to settle down with - it shows you are sweet, caring, and responsible.
posted by Maia at 9:35 PM on October 15, 2007 [1 favorite]

Shit, the cats were my husband's idea. He always had cats, as a kid and as a single dude. I would have been happy with a goldfish.

In fact, he still has the collar of his most cherished cat companion, Mr. Simmons (may he rest in peace). It's in a box on his dresser, and I knew this when we got together, and I STILL MARRIED HIM.
posted by padraigin at 9:40 PM on October 15, 2007

Just be upfront about the cats, since a lot of people are allergic. Most women I've met like cats, even if they are allergic so it's not weird or anything to have a cat or two.

Um... Don't get a third cat, and if you get a third cat really really don't get a forth. Single dudes with an army of cats, now that gets weird.
posted by TeatimeGrommit at 9:41 PM on October 15, 2007 [4 favorites]

No, I mean if you had like 5 then it might get creepy, but I can't imagine it being a turn off for any woman, unless she specifically hated cats and if anything its a plus. In that small of a place though, I would make sure you are extra diligent with cleaning their litter box, etc as the smell/mess could be a turnoff.
posted by whoaali at 9:43 PM on October 15, 2007

Not sure what percentage of the female population has cat allergies, but I know I'd never go home with you once I found out you had cats. Especially in a situation where I might end up leaving my clothes in a huge pile of cat hair. Being in a cat house generally buys me at least 24 hours of respiratory misery and you'd better be extremely special to make that worth it.

You might want to mention the cats and your colossal supply of Claritin in the same sentence.
posted by crinklebat at 9:43 PM on October 15, 2007 [2 favorites]

Response by poster: TeatimeGrommit: I'm actually mildly allergic (my ex was a jerk!) so that is one of the first things I warn about. I also have an air filter meant for a room over twice the size of my apartment.. :P

And yeah, this isn't something I'm -too- concerned about since I do pretty well for myself despite the two fuzzballs, it just came up tonight during a conversation with another guy so I figured I'd ask a larger body of people!
posted by Loto at 9:45 PM on October 15, 2007

As a 25 year old guy who has had two cats for the past 4 years or so, they have not been a hinderence to the dating or 'hooking up' scene. There have been other road blocks in my life, but my cats have never been a contributing impediment, and in some cases may have helped generate an initial conversation or spark.

If anything, having cats is an ice breaker when / if you do go back to your place, because they tend to make their presence known (if you have cats like mine anyway), are cute, and gives some ground for a conversation and something to do besides the obvious (well, immediately anyway).

Just make sure the litter box is clean and there isn't cat litter all over of the floor or in your bed. (I recommend some robots to help keep it in line, I live in a 1 bed / studio thing, so the small spaces can make it tough).
posted by mrzarquon at 9:48 PM on October 15, 2007

I wouldn't worry about it if you manage the hair and if your apartment doesn't smell like catshit.
posted by dismas at 9:48 PM on October 15, 2007 [1 favorite]

Don't be nervous about the cats. Be nervous about funky smells and the presence of cat hair on everything.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:48 PM on October 15, 2007

Somehow I'm not surprised this came up with another guy. Guys, especially gys in their 20s, can be so weird and hard on each other when it comes to really obscure (and on-existent) signifiers of masculinity. Things that chicks don't care about.
posted by lunasol at 9:56 PM on October 15, 2007 [1 favorite]

Dude, I was just telling my dear boy yesterday how hot I think guys with cats are and how much I love watching him cuddle and nurture our dear Imogene.

For me, because I'm claustrophobic, dating a guy who lived in a 200 square foot pad would be a much bigger issue (but again, I'm weird that way. The 500 square foot place we had in Boston nearly drove me batty because I felt like we were stepping over each other all the time). Of course, as people have mentioned, because of the space, you have to be extra fastidious about cat hair and litter box smell, but other than that, I think the guy with cats thing is awesome.
posted by mostlymartha at 9:56 PM on October 15, 2007

It's not like it's A Thing, but I can see why a guy friend would tease you a little bit about being The Single Straight Guy With A Few Cats.

I think that Metafilter skews kind of pro-cat, so people here are liable to answer any cat-related question with "Perfection!"

But a number of times, among my circle of female friends, someone has said something like "Yeah, only then it turned out that he has a few cats." and everyone goes "Ohhhhh....." and winces.

My friends may just be particularly mean and/or anti-cat, of course!
posted by thehmsbeagle at 9:57 PM on October 15, 2007 [1 favorite]

Nthing that it's not the cats, its the small space. Do an honest assessment of whether your apartment is stuffy and smells of litter box. If not, then you should be golden. You get extra points with ladies-in-the-know if you have cats and are able to keep your place from having a cat-funk. (Cats ++. Cleanliness ++.)
posted by LobsterMitten at 9:59 PM on October 15, 2007

Keep your apartment super clean. I am allergic to cats, but drug myself with claritin. I have a bad memory of sleeping over at a boyfriend's house, who had cats and waking up with a face full of hives because his kitties had been sleeping on his bed pillows.
posted by pluckysparrow at 10:00 PM on October 15, 2007

I've heard two women say (independently of one another and on separate occasions) "Never get together with a bachelor who owns a cat. Dogs are fine, but not cats". I don't credit either as being especially perspicacious or wise and didn't even bother asking them why (I guess now that it might have something to do with the perception that you don't need to "love" a cat as much as you do a dog.... or something) , but they both said it.
posted by bunglin jones at 10:07 PM on October 15, 2007

Man, I think a guy with a cat (or 2) is really cute. I myself am a cat person, but then a lot of girls are. You get plus points as far as I'm concerned.
posted by tatiana wishbone at 10:10 PM on October 15, 2007

I don't think it's a big deal as long as you keep the litter box clean.

You may want to keep a selection of allergy meds on hand (claritin, benedryl, etc.) just in case your date isn't prepared or doesn't expect a problem. I have a cat, so I always think I'll be fine at another cat owner's house. Oddly enough, I'm not allergic to my cat, but I am allergic to other people's cats.
posted by birdlady at 10:13 PM on October 15, 2007

Just make sure your apartment doesn't smell like cats.
posted by arianell at 10:14 PM on October 15, 2007

Oh, definitely not. My boyfriend became all the more attractive to me when he told me he had a cat not long after we met. He'd tell me stories about her and his previous pets. I'm an animal lover, and he's awfully cute with the cat and loves her to pieces. It said something about his character to me. She hates me though. Maybe she knows I'm a dog person. Can't win 'em all. :)
posted by cmgonzalez at 10:16 PM on October 15, 2007

In case you're interested, here's a previous thread on the permissible number of cats in an apartment,
posted by epugachev at 10:22 PM on October 15, 2007

Two is not at all weird. I'm allergic to cats to the point that spending an hour in a room occupied by a cat a few days ago will make me tear up and sniffly, but I still adore cats and would find a guy with a cat/two cats terribly sensitive and adorable.

Although, as stated above, more than two and it gets a bit questionable.
posted by Phire at 10:29 PM on October 15, 2007

I wouldn't be weirded out by the cats, but I wouldn't go home with you... allergies.
posted by clh at 10:31 PM on October 15, 2007

I'm a guy, and straight at that, and definitely not a cat person but, fwiw, it's not cats themselves that really bug me but the smell that almost invariably accompanies them. So nthing the keep it clean, and be meticulous. The small size of your apartment doesn't help. I would think emptying the litter every day, maybe even all new litter every day, along with frequent vacuuming/sweeping/dusting, would be appropriate. And make sure to throw the litter away outside your apartment.

But no, I don't think cats are a hindrance to your dating life and people in general seem to like people with pets.
posted by 6550 at 10:36 PM on October 15, 2007

Cats are awesome, and I like people who like cats. Just, yeah, as people have said, be good about the litterbox.
posted by you're a kitty! at 10:38 PM on October 15, 2007

It's the dog men that turn me off big time. Something about a 4' tall dog butthole in your face kills the libido.

I must emphasize that if you're asking whether anything at all is a turn off to all women, then the answer is always no. Just keep the doody box clean and you're all set.
posted by sian at 10:41 PM on October 15, 2007

i'm sure as long as your home doesn't look like you never vaccuum (hello, you have pets, do it every week) it's not a big deal. i guess the stereotype is that having cats is a more feminine thing, but that's only worth considering if you already give off that vibe, in which case you want to minimize it.

but i concur with others in the thread, that having cats is a sign of a well adjusted..sensitive.. male. so, net effect = positive.
posted by Dillonlikescookies at 10:45 PM on October 15, 2007

posted by lemuria at 10:53 PM on October 15, 2007

You can get a bit of a shock if mid-"hook-up" you look up to find a cat or two watching if you haven't been warned.
posted by Abiezer at 10:55 PM on October 15, 2007

Just be clean.
posted by apetpsychic at 11:09 PM on October 15, 2007

Pets, much as any lifestyle choice, have the potential to attract or repel. Putting aside the allergy/poo/pee issues here, here's what I guess are your distinct hazards: (1) intimating in any way to a prospective partner that you were thinking about junking the cats due to their potential effect on hookups (which I realize you are not, in the end, doing); (2) explaining the cats' presence defensively as baggage from a prior relationship (this could be turned to your advantage, but could be risky); (3) combining the cats with certain other behaviors, like wearing cardigans, acting like Felix Unger, and taking long calls from Mom during the date.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 11:32 PM on October 15, 2007 [4 favorites]

Invest in a Dyson so that all the cat hair gets sucked up and with two cats there will be a lot. I find that people allergic to cats can handle the place better with a Dyson vacuum on the job. Considering how little your space is I would vacuum everyday.

Also, use orange oxy Nature's Miracle for their pee and Nature's Miracle for the box because cats have a distinct aroma and you need to control the litter box with a tyrannical hand.

The thing to be concerned about is that the cats may become jealous and pee on possessions including love object's clothes or try to give her fleas or just be plain irritable. I think my boyfriend's cat understood that I am a MEAN woman and had already calculated how to KILL her if she gave me too many problems. We got along fine.

A good rule is not to have more photos of your pets than of fellow human beings. This applies to everyone.
posted by jadepearl at 11:36 PM on October 15, 2007

Man with pets: nurturing.

Man with pets and a tiny apartment: underemployed.

Man with pets and a small apartment with a persistent urine smell: untouchable.

It's a fine line.
posted by davejay at 11:48 PM on October 15, 2007 [1 favorite]

I have a very close male friend with two Siamese cats from the same litter that are bat-shit insane. He used to live in an efficiency but it didn't affect his social status at all. He was, and still is, a chick magnet.
posted by Brittanie at 12:01 AM on October 16, 2007

Well, I don't like cats, but I have gone out with some rabid cat people, and if I was thinking about going home with you already, the cats certainly wouldn't be a dealbreaker - maybe a convenient excuse to get out if was looking for one.
posted by jacalata at 12:04 AM on October 16, 2007

Flunkie nailed it.
posted by zenpop at 12:13 AM on October 16, 2007

Is a single guy owning cats a turnoff?

Absolutely not! I suppose it could be a problem if the person you're trying to bring home is allergic. On the off-chance, I don't think mentioning them before returning to the apartment would ruin an evening.
posted by Mael Oui at 12:32 AM on October 16, 2007

You know, I'm willing to go out on a limb here and comment against the grain of most every other respondee. There is something vaguely effeminate and off putting about a dude with cats. It's not a deal breaker, but there it is. Now, a guy with a *dog* and a couple cats... mwawr. :)
posted by smallstatic at 12:33 AM on October 16, 2007

As a bachelor with a cat in a (very) small apartment, I can say that the ladies love it (I was never a cat person, but I learned). They're generally surprised, positively, at first. The cat is eclectic and has a funny personality which is endearing. I am not underemployed, homosexual, effeminate, or otherwise creepy. I have no photos of it, nor does the place smell, so maybe that's why it's not problematic.

That being said, of course I'd prefer a dog - just that I am not home enough to take good care of one...
posted by mateuslee at 12:40 AM on October 16, 2007

If you're a cat person, then I would think that any girl who wasn't interested solely because you had cats is not the girl for you.
posted by narrativium at 1:03 AM on October 16, 2007

Cats are cute! Just make sure your place is clean and you warn the ladies in case there is allergies.
posted by teststrip at 1:46 AM on October 16, 2007

There was an article not too long ago on the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel website about men having cats...the consensus seemed to be that it's too effeminate. Personally, I think that's bullshit, but the perception is out there for some people.

Then again, do you really want a woman who's shallow enough to dismiss you because of your cats? When I was dating I let the cats meet potential boyfriends as a test of the guys' character. Perhaps you could view your cats as doing the same thing.
posted by christinetheslp at 3:21 AM on October 16, 2007

As thehmsbeagle noted, you are asking in a place where cat lovers abound. These answers are skewed.

Personally, I find it a total turnoff when:

You talk endlessly and obsessively about your cat(s).
(This could include long talks about problems with the animal, like pissing in the bed when you are away, or how human-like it is.)

Your apartment is covered in hair.
(Many people are (and I am) allergic, it is unsightly on clothing.)

Your apartment smells like cat shit or piss.
(That smell is your smell. Good luck getting laid.)

You make me look at pictures of your cat.
(At home on a date, or anytime. Further, don't make your entire online presence cat-specific, like having a flickr account composed entirely of cat pictures.)

Judging by the responses here, however, you should go to the next mefi meetup if you want some "tail".
posted by fake at 5:19 AM on October 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

Yes. I like cats, don't get me wrong. I just would rather not go into a relationship with a man and his animal. Take that as you will.
posted by banannafish at 5:24 AM on October 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

Agreeing with christineslp - if someone thinks you're lame, effeminate, etc because you have cats, that is not a person you want anything to do with. Think of all the other baseless stereotypes she'd be judging you against.
posted by Mr Bunnsy at 5:27 AM on October 16, 2007

One of my very best friends married a fine fellow, and he claims that his two adorable cats were the deal-maker.
posted by anthill at 5:39 AM on October 16, 2007

I haven't read all the answers but.... What? Seriously? No.
posted by dpx.mfx at 6:15 AM on October 16, 2007

No way man. Having pets shows you love animals which demonstates a certain kindness in the character which is very attractive in a mate and in people in general.

Like teststrip said, just be sure and tell her beforehand so she she can pop some Claritin if she needs to.
posted by Jess the Mess at 6:27 AM on October 16, 2007

I have two cats, also from a previous relationship. I like the idea of a guy who has or likes cats, because I figure he won't judge me ("cat lady!") for mine.
posted by CiaoMela at 6:45 AM on October 16, 2007

Can you smell the cats when you walk in the door? If no, then for an actual relationship, it's a turn-on -- it shows you can care for things and are comfortable expressing affection -- as long as you have no more than two, ever, no matter what. (More than two, and you risk suggesting that you form relationships with cats because you can't form them with people.) For hookups, the only thing you'd have to worry about is allergies, which everyone discussed.

You may eventually want to bring up the way you got them, but if you're like "Yeah, the ex dumped them on me, what a drag" as soon as the topic comes up, that would kind of make you look like an unfeeling jerk.

Also, if you do weird or gross stuff with the cats -- like feeding them on the dining room table or letting them drink the milk out of your cereal bowl -- don't ever admit it or let her see it. If you call them your kids or talk to them a lot, try to avoid it in front of her until you and she know each other well.

I say all this as a 20-year-old single girl who likes cats, but in a sane way. My favorite picture of a guy I used to date shows him fast asleep on his back, spread-eagled, with one cat cuddled under each arm plus one in the crook of his knee.
posted by booksandlibretti at 6:53 AM on October 16, 2007

My wife and I met via a personal ad. She tells me that one of the things that attracted her to me when we were talking on the phone before we met in person was the fact that I owned (or was owned by, depending upon your point of view) two cats. The fact that I held the phone near one of the cats' faces so she could hear him purr while I scratched behind his ears helped, too.
posted by cerebus19 at 6:57 AM on October 16, 2007

i'm a 23 year old girl. i think it's friggin' adorable when guys own cats.

i have two cats, though, and i think guys find that to be a turnoff.

the crazy cat lady thing doesn't transfer to guys.
posted by timory at 7:04 AM on October 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

I love cats, and could not be with a man who didn't. Therefore, for me, man with cats = turnon. Of course you want to make sure your apartment is clean and smells good, but that goes for anyone, not just people with cats. Most women are going to be turned off by stinky, dirty digs, cat or no cat.

Nthing christinetheslp - if your cats are a turnoff to some woman, especially if it's because she has these ideas about what a "real man" is supposed to be like or have as a pet, you don't want to be with this person. Think of your cats as a filter that screen out the undesirables.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 7:05 AM on October 16, 2007

Wow. I am shocked at the responses. I'm a single guy with a dog and I cannot count the number of times that women have found out I had a dog and said, "As long as it's not a cat," followed by some variation on "Guys with cats are creepy." The opposite has never happened; never had a woman say she'd prefer my dog was a cat, even women who love cats and have their own.
posted by dobbs at 7:14 AM on October 16, 2007

The allergies/cat hair problem will be helped considerably by keeping a spare sheet covering the entire bed, pillows and all. Keep track of which side is the cat side when you take it off to go to sleep. Don't let this become a dirty eyesore just because only the cats sleep on it.
posted by yohko at 7:22 AM on October 16, 2007

Ask yourself about the average type of girl you are dating and how she compares with the women who are posting on metafilter. I think the women are metafilter are more likely to be less the wild party types and more the cerebal type of women is this the type you are dating. Women in general will read into things for one type of guy they like versues another type of guy they dislike if they aint all into you already they might view the reason you have animals is cause you need companionship in your life casue you lack friends family etc. Try to hook up with females at the Vets casue you know they are animal lovers, so you owning animals might be a condition. Also understand something about being a guy and living with odor just cause you dont smell anything wrong with your place you have A become accustome to it and B women have a better sense of smell.
posted by Rolandkorn at 7:48 AM on October 16, 2007

Wow. I am shocked at the responses. I'm a single guy with a dog and I cannot count the number of times that women have found out I had a dog and said, "As long as it's not a cat," followed by some variation on "Guys with cats are creepy." The opposite has never happened; never had a woman say she'd prefer my dog was a cat, even women who love cats and have their own.

I can't count the number of times women have fondled my hump and said, "At least it's not leprosy." Never had a woman say that she'd prefer that I be a leper, as opposed to looking like Quasimodo.

No doubt there are women who hate men with cats. But you do have a selection, and etiquette, issue affecting your sample.

New idea: make little poodle costumes, find out in advance where the hookupee's animal preferences lie, and optimize.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 8:18 AM on October 16, 2007 [2 favorites]

A wise friend told me that only a man with cats truly knows how to treat a woman- because who better to a teach a man devotion than a cat?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:27 AM on October 16, 2007 [6 favorites]

My fiance has two cats. Well, now it's "we" have two cats. I am neither a cat person nor a dog person, but a pleasant mix of the two. I thought that it was a positive asset that he owned cats.

As for the vacuuming thing, although it's probably a good idea, I can tell you that my fiance mostly didn't, and I'm still marrying him. (although he does own a Dyson). He's just happy that I took over litter box duty.
posted by nursegracer at 8:53 AM on October 16, 2007

But you do have a selection, and etiquette, issue affecting your sample.

Uh huh. Unlike everyone else who's answered the question.
posted by dobbs at 9:09 AM on October 16, 2007

I hate cats but it turns out the guys I like tend to love them and own them. I get over it.
As long as your apt smells ok and your cats don't try to climb on the girls while you're making out, you're ok.
posted by rmless at 10:05 AM on October 16, 2007

Well, it's been said already, but...allergies. I can't even consider dating a man with cats, because I'm so allergic that I often stop being able to breathe effectively. Ouch.

p.s. they smell, too.
posted by Stewriffic at 10:06 AM on October 16, 2007

Cats won't be a problem, but if they're using a litter box, the smell of cat shit could be a big problem, and it's the kind of problem you might overlook (oversmell?) if you have become used to it. Keep it clean.

The opposite has never happened; never had a woman say she'd prefer my dog was a cat

Well, that's just never going to happen unless you bring home a really shitty woman who doesn't mind insulting you and your pet at the same time. You may get a lot of false compliments on Sparky and dog ownership, but you'll never know how many polite dates actually have secretly wished your slobbering little doggy friend would go the hell away and lick his balls elsewhere.
posted by pracowity at 10:37 AM on October 16, 2007

To answer the question: I would say without reservation that (back in my dating days) a dude with cats wouldn't be ruled out simply on that basis. But I think the real answer is: Anyone with pets will likely be more judged on their pet-maintenance-capability, and how well-behaved their pets are, than whether or not they own a pet, and what flavour pet it is (this obviously rules out violent allergy sufferers and people who loathe pets of the sort you own... which in either case means you likely won't be dating them long, will you?)

"you'll never know how many polite dates actually have secretly wished your slobbering little doggy friend would go the hell away and lick his balls elsewhere."

This is an important point. I am, with emphasis, Not A Dog Person. As a general rule, I can't stand dogs, but I've known people with awesome, well-behaved dogs, and in general I've always made an effort to be polite, even when faced with a leaping, slobbering, stinking terror. Cats are generally way more laid back, but I've had friends with obnoxious cats, too. Usually if the cat is being in-your-face pesty, they'll stick them in the bedroom with an apology, because as a rule, folks with cats tend to be more sensitive to non-tolerant and/or cat-averse guests.

I hate to generalise, but the thing that astonishes me is how often people with dogs automatically assume everybody is going to adore their pet, regardless of how out-of-control / ill-behaved it is, whereas many (not all, but quite a lot) cat owners will ask *before* I get in the house, if it's ok, or if I'm allergic. Most times they'll even put the cat(s) in the bedroom ahead of time without asking.

So to sum up: in general, people with well-behaved, well maintained pets (of any kind) are attractive, in my book. I personally don't think it's a strike against you, so long as you are neat and considerate.
posted by lonefrontranger at 1:32 PM on October 16, 2007

A male acquaintance was featured in a cat magazine when he was single. Subsequently, a horde of cat-loving women contacted him with all sorts of ideas on their minds. If that's a crowd you want to expore, you can use the cats to your advantage.
posted by springload at 2:55 PM on October 16, 2007

In my experience, outside of the actually allergic, the kind of women who worry overmuch about their clothes and furniture and are very into how ornamental their dudes are don't like men with cats. For a convenient shorthand, I will call them "shallow bitches."

Also in my experience, outside of the outright crazy and slovenly, the kind of women who are less hung up on cold perfection and will bring you soup when you're sick and apply copious and uninhibited physical affection to you when they see you nurturing a small creature like men with cats. For a convenient shorthand, I will call them "glorious and amazing women, like myself."

So it all really depends who you are trying to attract, I guess. And yeah, vacuum and change litter every day and invest in something like this, because neither type enjoys being nauseated.
posted by melissa may at 3:58 PM on October 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

i'm very skeptical about any adult who doesn't own either a pet or a plant. if petless and plantless, their place better be reeeeally clean, or else i just assume they're still mentally living in their mom's basement, leaving dirty dishes around and habitually running out of toilet paper. for me, talking about the ex who ditched the pets is a bit of a turn-off, but the pets themselves are good. it's nice if he doesn't babytalk to them like an idiot, though.
posted by twistofrhyme at 8:53 PM on October 16, 2007

Basic Instructions
posted by anthill at 8:03 AM on October 19, 2007

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