Can I get into law school?
September 26, 2007 12:28 PM Subscribe
What are my chances of getting in to law school?
I've decided that I want to get into law school. The only real option for me in this regard, since I'm married with a child on the way, is the only law school within a 40 minute drive. http://www.law.louisville.edu/ The Louis D. Brandeis school of law at UofL. Their Admissions page is a little vague concerning the averages of incoming freshman.
My current cumulative G.P.A. is 2.2. However, I had a few bad years when I first started. Since I decided to come back to school and get serious about grades, I've managed all As and Bs and my semester gpa for the past three semesters has been 3.4-3.6. I've heard that being able to demonstrate a turn around in Academic success can overrule a bad GPA
I've taken a few practice Lsats and scored in the 155-160 range. With more study and practice I think I could get to 165 by the time I take the actual LSAT in december.
I have lots of charity/volunteer/community work.
I could get recommendations from my county prosecutor and circuit court judge, as well as several professors.
I'll graduate this coming may with a bachelor's in English with a concentration in writing.
So what are my odds? I understand that this would vary by school, so just give me your general impressions. Although, if you have experience with the UofL law school, that insight would be most welcome as well.
I've decided that I want to get into law school. The only real option for me in this regard, since I'm married with a child on the way, is the only law school within a 40 minute drive. http://www.law.louisville.edu/ The Louis D. Brandeis school of law at UofL. Their Admissions page is a little vague concerning the averages of incoming freshman.
My current cumulative G.P.A. is 2.2. However, I had a few bad years when I first started. Since I decided to come back to school and get serious about grades, I've managed all As and Bs and my semester gpa for the past three semesters has been 3.4-3.6. I've heard that being able to demonstrate a turn around in Academic success can overrule a bad GPA
I've taken a few practice Lsats and scored in the 155-160 range. With more study and practice I think I could get to 165 by the time I take the actual LSAT in december.
I have lots of charity/volunteer/community work.
I could get recommendations from my county prosecutor and circuit court judge, as well as several professors.
I'll graduate this coming may with a bachelor's in English with a concentration in writing.
So what are my odds? I understand that this would vary by school, so just give me your general impressions. Although, if you have experience with the UofL law school, that insight would be most welcome as well.
165 is pretty good. Write a good personal statement and cover letter, it will help greatly.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:51 PM on September 26, 2007
posted by Ironmouth at 12:51 PM on September 26, 2007
According to LSAC's GPA/LSAT search tool, a 2.2/165 would give you a very strong shot, and 2.2/160 is still doable.
Seriously though, the legal job market isn't what it used to be. There are too many graduates chasing too few jobs, and there are a lot of disappointed, underemployed new J.D.s out there with huge debt loads.
The law school's employment survey reports a high rate of employment after graduation, but it's concerning in other ways.
To begin with, law schools are notorious for fudging employment numbers, even going as far as to hire unemployed graduates to work in the library (for a minimal wage, of course).
The reported median private-sector salary is only $55k, and this is likely overstated, since only 65% of private-sector respondents reported a salary (and non-reporters tend to have lower salaries).
"Business and Industry" accounts for almost 15% of graduates, and this could very well indicate graduates who were unable to secure legal employment.
Finally, it's not clear how many graduates left Kentucky after graduation because they wanted to and how many were unable to secure employment nearby.
In your situation, I would make sure that you know what you're getting into. Be confident that you'll be able to secure local employment with median grades (because you can't rely on excelling at law school) at a salary that will let you pay your debt (if any) and support your family.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 1:02 PM on September 26, 2007
Seriously though, the legal job market isn't what it used to be. There are too many graduates chasing too few jobs, and there are a lot of disappointed, underemployed new J.D.s out there with huge debt loads.
The law school's employment survey reports a high rate of employment after graduation, but it's concerning in other ways.
To begin with, law schools are notorious for fudging employment numbers, even going as far as to hire unemployed graduates to work in the library (for a minimal wage, of course).
The reported median private-sector salary is only $55k, and this is likely overstated, since only 65% of private-sector respondents reported a salary (and non-reporters tend to have lower salaries).
"Business and Industry" accounts for almost 15% of graduates, and this could very well indicate graduates who were unable to secure legal employment.
Finally, it's not clear how many graduates left Kentucky after graduation because they wanted to and how many were unable to secure employment nearby.
In your situation, I would make sure that you know what you're getting into. Be confident that you'll be able to secure local employment with median grades (because you can't rely on excelling at law school) at a salary that will let you pay your debt (if any) and support your family.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 1:02 PM on September 26, 2007
You'd get in, but I wouldn't go to Louisville. Unless you're at the top of your class (i.e. top 2) you're going to have a hard time getting out of Louisville. I'd listen to the prez. It's reputation doesn't carry anywhere, ,the job market is tight, and it's going to be tough sledding to get any sort of job that can outweigh the debt.
If you do well on the LSAT, you can get into a respectable school. With that in mind, if you're serious about law school, be serious enough to relocate for it.
posted by craven_morhead at 1:07 PM on September 26, 2007
If you do well on the LSAT, you can get into a respectable school. With that in mind, if you're serious about law school, be serious enough to relocate for it.
posted by craven_morhead at 1:07 PM on September 26, 2007
Here's some commentary on the top tier v. rest of the pack.
posted by craven_morhead at 1:22 PM on September 26, 2007
posted by craven_morhead at 1:22 PM on September 26, 2007
Response by poster: we'd be willing to relocate for a good job, just not for the actual schooling part. My wife already has a decent job as a high school physics teacher and she's made it abundantly clear that she will not go anywhere for the schooling part.
However, if a decent 45-50k a year job became available I'm sure we'd move.
posted by tylerfulltilt at 1:46 PM on September 26, 2007
However, if a decent 45-50k a year job became available I'm sure we'd move.
posted by tylerfulltilt at 1:46 PM on September 26, 2007
Then I'd suggest moving somewhere you can go to a top 25 school and work in the area. If you're willing to move in 3 years, or whenever your wife is willing to pack her bags, wait until then to go to school, and study like mad for the LSAT until then. Unless you know you want to stay in the area, a UoL law degree just isn't worth much in other areas.
Look at their employment stats, 60% employed at graduation, with grads averaging $55k in the private sector and $39k in the public sector (and keep in mind that those numbers are probably weighted in favor of the top of the class, who are more likely to report their numbers). Compare with Notre Dame's numbers. I don't mean to piss on your parade, and UofL would be fine if you want to stay in the area, but that's the option you're looking at if you go there.
posted by craven_morhead at 1:57 PM on September 26, 2007
Look at their employment stats, 60% employed at graduation, with grads averaging $55k in the private sector and $39k in the public sector (and keep in mind that those numbers are probably weighted in favor of the top of the class, who are more likely to report their numbers). Compare with Notre Dame's numbers. I don't mean to piss on your parade, and UofL would be fine if you want to stay in the area, but that's the option you're looking at if you go there.
posted by craven_morhead at 1:57 PM on September 26, 2007
Response by poster: It wasn't much of a parade, and actually if the truth is moving to a better school means a better job, then so be it. It's good to know this stuff.
posted by tylerfulltilt at 2:01 PM on September 26, 2007
posted by tylerfulltilt at 2:01 PM on September 26, 2007
As a sweeping generalization, yes, a better school is a boon when you're job hunting. I had a pretty good undergrad GPA and stomped the LSAT pretty hard and got into a number of top-tier schools. I didn't go to the best-ranked school I got into, but I went to a national school that threw money at me. I'm happy with my choice, and a month into my 2nd year, the job hunt in distant job markets is going well.
Generally, the caliber of the school matters exponentially more the further away you get from campus. Going to law school at the University of Kansas will probably land you something in Kansas, but if you're trying to land a well-paying job on the coasts, you're likely screwed. Locally, the handicap of going to a mediocre school is counterbalanced by the glut of alums in the area willing to help you.
The connection between a highly ranked school and a top-rate legal education, however, is probably somewhat dubious. There, you'll probably see more variation within groups than between groups.
posted by craven_morhead at 2:08 PM on September 26, 2007
Generally, the caliber of the school matters exponentially more the further away you get from campus. Going to law school at the University of Kansas will probably land you something in Kansas, but if you're trying to land a well-paying job on the coasts, you're likely screwed. Locally, the handicap of going to a mediocre school is counterbalanced by the glut of alums in the area willing to help you.
The connection between a highly ranked school and a top-rate legal education, however, is probably somewhat dubious. There, you'll probably see more variation within groups than between groups.
posted by craven_morhead at 2:08 PM on September 26, 2007
Remember to do the math too. Do not for a second just assume that as a lawyer you will be making enough money to comfortably pay back your loans. I go to a decent tier 1 school and didn't take out the max loans and am currently in a panic to find a job paying over 60k. I will probably be able to secure a job in the 80k to 100k range (god willing...), but crunch the hard number and determine just how much money you will need to make to pay back your loans and support your family.
My monthly loan repayment will be about $1,700 a month. That's double my current rent.
posted by whoaali at 6:21 PM on September 26, 2007
My monthly loan repayment will be about $1,700 a month. That's double my current rent.
posted by whoaali at 6:21 PM on September 26, 2007
Are you sure you want to get into law, in the first place? Make sure you understand the impact (on family/social/etc life), and make sure you are motivated by the right things. It's not a career for everyone, and you're making things a lot harder for yourself if you don't get into the right school, from what I've heard about the US legal market.
posted by oxford blue at 7:36 PM on September 26, 2007
posted by oxford blue at 7:36 PM on September 26, 2007
I'm in my second year at a Top 20 school and I'm having a difficult time finding a good job this summer. I got in at 3.0/168 and finished just inside the top half after the first year. All the big firms in Chicago, St Louis and Atlanta turned me down and Ive moved on to smaller regional firms so far with little success. It's a tough market and the midwest competes directly with U Chicago, Michigan, Northwestern, Wash U plus top grads at regional schools.
You can get into Louisville with 2.2/165, probably fairly easily. You will have to get a 165 or higher though, I doubt even a 160 will be enough to overcome your GPA. There's no assurances though, they reject people within the right number ranges all the time for various reasons, who knows why. You're also going to need a good personal statement that explains why you have such a bad GPA and how you've moved on/grown up or whatever.
Now, the problem is, unless you finish in the top 10-20% at UL, you have no shot of making more than say 60-70k max coming out of your 3rd year, KY markets top out at about 100-110 right now, and that's for the 2-3 largest firms, which won't be hiring UL grads not in the top 20%. Everyone else pays under that, and some WAY under that. Don't kid yourself either, top 20% is going to be a bitch. You'll have to read for 4-6hours a day, minimum. And increase that as the semester drags on. If you fall short, welcome to insurance defense, your uncle Jimbob's neighborhood firm or working for the state.
Basicly, a UL degree is going to let you work in Louisville, Cincy and Lexington. The large/midsize firms will hire you through career services if you're in the top of the class, if not, good luck finding something on your own.
1) realize the realities of the market, its down a bit right now and more than a bit for non-top tier grads
2) realize just how much work this really is and what it will take to have a decent chance to succeed after 3 years
3) look at the numbers
4) look at the numbers again and make sure you really understand what that amount of debt is going to mean in light of (1) and (2)
5) make an informed choice
Sites you should know about and use:
www.lawschoolnumbers.com
www.lawschooldiscussion.org
www.nalpdirectory.com
http://www.martindale.com/
http://careers.findlaw.com/
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:51 PM on September 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
You can get into Louisville with 2.2/165, probably fairly easily. You will have to get a 165 or higher though, I doubt even a 160 will be enough to overcome your GPA. There's no assurances though, they reject people within the right number ranges all the time for various reasons, who knows why. You're also going to need a good personal statement that explains why you have such a bad GPA and how you've moved on/grown up or whatever.
Now, the problem is, unless you finish in the top 10-20% at UL, you have no shot of making more than say 60-70k max coming out of your 3rd year, KY markets top out at about 100-110 right now, and that's for the 2-3 largest firms, which won't be hiring UL grads not in the top 20%. Everyone else pays under that, and some WAY under that. Don't kid yourself either, top 20% is going to be a bitch. You'll have to read for 4-6hours a day, minimum. And increase that as the semester drags on. If you fall short, welcome to insurance defense, your uncle Jimbob's neighborhood firm or working for the state.
Basicly, a UL degree is going to let you work in Louisville, Cincy and Lexington. The large/midsize firms will hire you through career services if you're in the top of the class, if not, good luck finding something on your own.
1) realize the realities of the market, its down a bit right now and more than a bit for non-top tier grads
2) realize just how much work this really is and what it will take to have a decent chance to succeed after 3 years
3) look at the numbers
4) look at the numbers again and make sure you really understand what that amount of debt is going to mean in light of (1) and (2)
5) make an informed choice
Sites you should know about and use:
www.lawschoolnumbers.com
www.lawschooldiscussion.org
www.nalpdirectory.com
http://www.martindale.com/
http://careers.findlaw.com/
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:51 PM on September 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
On further research, you should be good even with a 160.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:56 PM on September 26, 2007
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:56 PM on September 26, 2007
Um....Maybe outdated, but UofL's law school likes to work with non-traditional students. As I understand it, they do so quite a bit more than most law schools, so the statistics on the entering classes tend to be somewhat skewed. (I think a little under 1/3 of any given class is likely to be working fulltime and attending classes mostly at night).
LSATs and GPAs are (or used to be) weighed against other experience. For instance, someone who finished with a 155 LSAT/2.5 or so undergrad GPA but then went on to work successfully as an insurance adjuster or tax accountant for 20 years before deciding to go to law school would be looked at somewhat differently from someone who got that 155/2.5 and then tried to go straight into law. It's kind of understood in that situation that after a while out of school, the undergrad GPA might not mean much about current abilities, or that standardized test-taking skills may have dropped off.
More sent in email.
posted by dilettante at 8:16 PM on September 26, 2007
LSATs and GPAs are (or used to be) weighed against other experience. For instance, someone who finished with a 155 LSAT/2.5 or so undergrad GPA but then went on to work successfully as an insurance adjuster or tax accountant for 20 years before deciding to go to law school would be looked at somewhat differently from someone who got that 155/2.5 and then tried to go straight into law. It's kind of understood in that situation that after a while out of school, the undergrad GPA might not mean much about current abilities, or that standardized test-taking skills may have dropped off.
More sent in email.
posted by dilettante at 8:16 PM on September 26, 2007
To answer your question: yes, I think you will get in Louisville with recommendations and good personal statements. I see some are questioning the location. I have some thoughts about that.
Like everything else related to education, law school rankings and such are nothing more than things that get your "foot in the door." Your career will be defined on how accomplished you are at your job once you start practicing. Plenty of big firm associates never amount to jack shit in the legal profession, and the converse is true. To that extent, going to Louisville may make it more difficult for you to get a job, but it doesn't mean going to law school is pointless.
Sure, all things being equal, a higher ranked school will increase your chances at landing a big firm.
Is that what you want? If your goal in your practice is to get on with a big firm in a big city, law school choice will help you get there. But the vast majority of lawyers don't take that route. Solo practitioners, prosecutors, in-house counsel, small firms, etc. make up the vast majority of law jobs. Again, having a stellar resume will help you win a job right away, but you will likely find some job at some point. And if you are an awesome attorney, you will work your way up to more prestigious and high paying jobs if that is what you want. If you are merely an average attorney, then that is all you were ever going to be anyhow.
In other words, don't let this obnoxious emphasis on top tier --> big firm law track that I see here and elsewhere on the net dissuade you if you want to be a lawyer. There are plenty of other jobs out there that you can make a good living at and enjoy it.
I'd be more than happy to give you individualized advice if you email me. But just know this: you can't put it on cruise control based on your resume; your ultimate success as a lawyer will depend on your natural ability and how hard you work--not whether you went to a law school that is #47 or #104 on some list.
posted by dios at 4:42 PM on October 2, 2007 [1 favorite]
Like everything else related to education, law school rankings and such are nothing more than things that get your "foot in the door." Your career will be defined on how accomplished you are at your job once you start practicing. Plenty of big firm associates never amount to jack shit in the legal profession, and the converse is true. To that extent, going to Louisville may make it more difficult for you to get a job, but it doesn't mean going to law school is pointless.
Sure, all things being equal, a higher ranked school will increase your chances at landing a big firm.
Is that what you want? If your goal in your practice is to get on with a big firm in a big city, law school choice will help you get there. But the vast majority of lawyers don't take that route. Solo practitioners, prosecutors, in-house counsel, small firms, etc. make up the vast majority of law jobs. Again, having a stellar resume will help you win a job right away, but you will likely find some job at some point. And if you are an awesome attorney, you will work your way up to more prestigious and high paying jobs if that is what you want. If you are merely an average attorney, then that is all you were ever going to be anyhow.
In other words, don't let this obnoxious emphasis on top tier --> big firm law track that I see here and elsewhere on the net dissuade you if you want to be a lawyer. There are plenty of other jobs out there that you can make a good living at and enjoy it.
I'd be more than happy to give you individualized advice if you email me. But just know this: you can't put it on cruise control based on your resume; your ultimate success as a lawyer will depend on your natural ability and how hard you work--not whether you went to a law school that is #47 or #104 on some list.
posted by dios at 4:42 PM on October 2, 2007 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 12:39 PM on September 26, 2007