Trouble on a "First Date"
August 4, 2007 4:12 PM Subscribe
Was it a first date? Can I expect a second date?
Hi everyone,
It's me, Corey. You might remember some of my posts a few months ago about whether to call a guy you like but don't know well and about what it's like to be gay and in love with a straight guy. Well, I've made some more progress. I'm out and exploring the dating scene a little bit. I'd like everyone's advice about something that happened recently.
So, I met this gay guy at an early orientation session for the company I work at several months ago. He'll be starting work there in my division in about a month. We were having wine and cheese and chatting about our mutual interest in not-for-profit work. Eventually, I e-mailed him and found out that he's gay. We exchanged our stories and impressions about what it's like to be gay and in your 20s. He actually lives far away (finishing up the job he's about to quit) so after a while we lost touch on e-mail. But recently I was in the town he lives in (he'll be moving to the city where I live and work in a month) and sent him an e-mail asking if he wants to meet for coffee.
He responded saying he's busy traveling but suggested coffee or dinner. I agreed to dinner. He wrote back saying he had to change the original day he'd planned because something came up and he had to meet "another friend" later that day. When I saw that I wondered if he'd already written me off as just a friend, but I wasn't sure because technically we weren't even really friends (beyond a brief in-person conversation several months ago and a few e-mails) so I didn't make a huge deal about it. When we finally met, he drove to pick me up where I was staying, which was very sweet. He looked quite well-dressed, though the flip-flops were a bit casual. He seemed happy to see me again and we drove to a restaurant and chatted for over two hours on various topics: politics, religion, our mutual work interests, we laughed quite a bit, got each other's sense of humor, and he even mentioned that when he moves to the city I'm in, he'd have me meet his parents who are helping him move in.
As on any first date, there were a few awkward moments. I ordered the dish he proposed. It was good, but after a while, it was almost too salty. Having completely forgotten that he recommended the dish, at one point, I calmly said, "I can't have any more of this, it's a bit too salty" to which he said, "Oh, sorry." I felt embarrassed and said "No no, this restaurant is quite nice" to try to make up for being slightly rude. At the end of the date, he drove me back to where I was staying and rather than just dropping me off and saying good-bye, he pulled over to the curb and turned the car off. We chatted for about another half hour about what life is like in the city we'll be living and working in, what the nightlife is like, cultural activities, and how we'd balance work with leisure. He seemed interested in being friends at least. I felt some sexual tension but I can't be sure he felt it too. I closed the "date" somewhat coldly because I wasn't even entirely sure whether he considered it a date and wasn't going to try to kiss him (I'm not sure that's appropriate for a first date anyway). I shook his hand and said thanks for a great time and I'll see you soon. He said we should definitely hang out in the city once he gets there.
When I walked back to my friend's place where I was staying I felt bad about closing the date so nervously so I e-mailed him right away saying: "Hi, Thanks again for taking time out of a busy schedule to meet with me. I had a really great time :) Let me know if you want to meet up again once you get to the city. Enjoy the rest of your summer!" The following morning, he responded saying, "Hi Corey, You are quite welcome; it was great to spend the evening with you. I look forward to more fascinating conversations in the future; I will certainly let you know when I get to the city!"
So, my questions are: Was this a date? It felt like a date. We're both gay and single. We were alone at dinner getting to know each other. If it was a date, should I expect a second date? I felt that we had a good time, there were hardly any moments of silence; we talked about everything and seemed to understand each other quite well. If I were to go by the date, minus a few awkward moments, I'd say things went well. But do you think his e-mail response is positive or tentative? Normally, for a second date, people ask what the other person is doing next weekend, or about a new movie, etc. That doesn't apply here because he's not going to be in my city for another month and it would be a bit much to make specific plans that far in advance. Yes, I plan to wait till then to get a better sense about him and yes I HATE overanalyzing things but a part of me wants to know whether I even have a shot at a second date with this guy. I apologize for the lengthy post but your thoughts are most welcome! Hopefully, putting this in perspective will help me stop thinking about it so much.
Corey
Hi everyone,
It's me, Corey. You might remember some of my posts a few months ago about whether to call a guy you like but don't know well and about what it's like to be gay and in love with a straight guy. Well, I've made some more progress. I'm out and exploring the dating scene a little bit. I'd like everyone's advice about something that happened recently.
So, I met this gay guy at an early orientation session for the company I work at several months ago. He'll be starting work there in my division in about a month. We were having wine and cheese and chatting about our mutual interest in not-for-profit work. Eventually, I e-mailed him and found out that he's gay. We exchanged our stories and impressions about what it's like to be gay and in your 20s. He actually lives far away (finishing up the job he's about to quit) so after a while we lost touch on e-mail. But recently I was in the town he lives in (he'll be moving to the city where I live and work in a month) and sent him an e-mail asking if he wants to meet for coffee.
He responded saying he's busy traveling but suggested coffee or dinner. I agreed to dinner. He wrote back saying he had to change the original day he'd planned because something came up and he had to meet "another friend" later that day. When I saw that I wondered if he'd already written me off as just a friend, but I wasn't sure because technically we weren't even really friends (beyond a brief in-person conversation several months ago and a few e-mails) so I didn't make a huge deal about it. When we finally met, he drove to pick me up where I was staying, which was very sweet. He looked quite well-dressed, though the flip-flops were a bit casual. He seemed happy to see me again and we drove to a restaurant and chatted for over two hours on various topics: politics, religion, our mutual work interests, we laughed quite a bit, got each other's sense of humor, and he even mentioned that when he moves to the city I'm in, he'd have me meet his parents who are helping him move in.
As on any first date, there were a few awkward moments. I ordered the dish he proposed. It was good, but after a while, it was almost too salty. Having completely forgotten that he recommended the dish, at one point, I calmly said, "I can't have any more of this, it's a bit too salty" to which he said, "Oh, sorry." I felt embarrassed and said "No no, this restaurant is quite nice" to try to make up for being slightly rude. At the end of the date, he drove me back to where I was staying and rather than just dropping me off and saying good-bye, he pulled over to the curb and turned the car off. We chatted for about another half hour about what life is like in the city we'll be living and working in, what the nightlife is like, cultural activities, and how we'd balance work with leisure. He seemed interested in being friends at least. I felt some sexual tension but I can't be sure he felt it too. I closed the "date" somewhat coldly because I wasn't even entirely sure whether he considered it a date and wasn't going to try to kiss him (I'm not sure that's appropriate for a first date anyway). I shook his hand and said thanks for a great time and I'll see you soon. He said we should definitely hang out in the city once he gets there.
When I walked back to my friend's place where I was staying I felt bad about closing the date so nervously so I e-mailed him right away saying: "Hi, Thanks again for taking time out of a busy schedule to meet with me. I had a really great time :) Let me know if you want to meet up again once you get to the city. Enjoy the rest of your summer!" The following morning, he responded saying, "Hi Corey, You are quite welcome; it was great to spend the evening with you. I look forward to more fascinating conversations in the future; I will certainly let you know when I get to the city!"
So, my questions are: Was this a date? It felt like a date. We're both gay and single. We were alone at dinner getting to know each other. If it was a date, should I expect a second date? I felt that we had a good time, there were hardly any moments of silence; we talked about everything and seemed to understand each other quite well. If I were to go by the date, minus a few awkward moments, I'd say things went well. But do you think his e-mail response is positive or tentative? Normally, for a second date, people ask what the other person is doing next weekend, or about a new movie, etc. That doesn't apply here because he's not going to be in my city for another month and it would be a bit much to make specific plans that far in advance. Yes, I plan to wait till then to get a better sense about him and yes I HATE overanalyzing things but a part of me wants to know whether I even have a shot at a second date with this guy. I apologize for the lengthy post but your thoughts are most welcome! Hopefully, putting this in perspective will help me stop thinking about it so much.
Corey
It sounds like it was a sort-of date. See how it goes next time.
That said, be careful... dating someone who works in the same office is a minefield.
And that said, congratulations! Glad to see you're getting out there!
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 4:39 PM on August 4, 2007
That said, be careful... dating someone who works in the same office is a minefield.
And that said, congratulations! Glad to see you're getting out there!
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 4:39 PM on August 4, 2007
Not a gay guy, but I'll put in 2 cents. It sounds like it was either a date or a kind of quasi-date -- you know, a sort of scouting mission to see if there was some mutual interest in an official date in the future.
Either way, his email response seems friendly and positive, and I think you would do well simply to take it at face value: he enjoyed spending time with you, and looks forward to spending more time with you in the future. Will this lead to a romantic relationship or just an office friendship? It's impossible to say, and trying to determine the future RIGHT NOW is crazy-making. Do yourself a favor and quit overanalyzing every.single.thing. It takes a bit of the joy out of life! Have fun and take it as it comes.
posted by scody at 4:41 PM on August 4, 2007
Either way, his email response seems friendly and positive, and I think you would do well simply to take it at face value: he enjoyed spending time with you, and looks forward to spending more time with you in the future. Will this lead to a romantic relationship or just an office friendship? It's impossible to say, and trying to determine the future RIGHT NOW is crazy-making. Do yourself a favor and quit overanalyzing every.single.thing. It takes a bit of the joy out of life! Have fun and take it as it comes.
posted by scody at 4:41 PM on August 4, 2007
It sounds like it was a sort-of date.
It sounds like it was either a date or a kind of quasi-date -- you know, a sort of scouting mission to see if there was some mutual interest in an official date in the future.
Two single gay guys--who each know the other is gay, and who don't have a pre-existing friendship--randomly get together for a 2-hour dinner, followed by a 30-minute conversation and plans to meet in the future for "more fascinating conversations"? Maybe it works differently in the gay world (I'm straight), but I don't understand how this is anything other than a date. Not a "sort-of date" or "quasi-date," but a date. A "scouting mission to see if there was some mutual interest" is the definition of a first date.
In fact, I'm hard-pressed to find a single detail from the whole account to suggest that it was "not a date." Yes, there are a few details that deviated from your ideal date (flip-flops, mildly awkward exchange, handshake goodnight), but that just means it was an imperfect date, which is still a date. I hope all my dates go as smoothly as it sounds like yours did.
posted by jejune at 4:53 PM on August 4, 2007
It sounds like it was either a date or a kind of quasi-date -- you know, a sort of scouting mission to see if there was some mutual interest in an official date in the future.
Two single gay guys--who each know the other is gay, and who don't have a pre-existing friendship--randomly get together for a 2-hour dinner, followed by a 30-minute conversation and plans to meet in the future for "more fascinating conversations"? Maybe it works differently in the gay world (I'm straight), but I don't understand how this is anything other than a date. Not a "sort-of date" or "quasi-date," but a date. A "scouting mission to see if there was some mutual interest" is the definition of a first date.
In fact, I'm hard-pressed to find a single detail from the whole account to suggest that it was "not a date." Yes, there are a few details that deviated from your ideal date (flip-flops, mildly awkward exchange, handshake goodnight), but that just means it was an imperfect date, which is still a date. I hope all my dates go as smoothly as it sounds like yours did.
posted by jejune at 4:53 PM on August 4, 2007
One more thing: To put this in perspective, consider that the conventional wisdom about first dates is they should be brief (less than an hour) and less formal than dinner, e.g. just coffee or drinks. I'm not making any comment on whether that conventional wisdom is correct, just saying that that would be a very generic/normal/straightforward first date. A fortiori, a 2.5-hour dinner date counts as a first date.
posted by jejune at 5:05 PM on August 4, 2007
posted by jejune at 5:05 PM on August 4, 2007
Yet another not-gay guy (although I did grow up in Chelsea and Provincetown!) but gay or straight that's not only a date, it's a really good one! And his response to your e-mail sounds very promising.
In fact I'd say that his e-mail is so positive that you should e-mail him a few days before he moves with a friendly offer to help him move in. Those are rarely turned down - he's already basically invited you to pitch in and meet his folks - and are surprisingly good second dates: full of chances to connect as you unpack their books and CDs and learn their tastes, and physically exhausting in kind of a sexy shared way.
In any case, it's important not to feel discouraged if he doesn't call right away after he moves to town - even if you help him with the move, his first weeks in a new job, home, and city will be hectic.
posted by nicwolff at 5:08 PM on August 4, 2007
In fact I'd say that his e-mail is so positive that you should e-mail him a few days before he moves with a friendly offer to help him move in. Those are rarely turned down - he's already basically invited you to pitch in and meet his folks - and are surprisingly good second dates: full of chances to connect as you unpack their books and CDs and learn their tastes, and physically exhausting in kind of a sexy shared way.
In any case, it's important not to feel discouraged if he doesn't call right away after he moves to town - even if you help him with the move, his first weeks in a new job, home, and city will be hectic.
posted by nicwolff at 5:08 PM on August 4, 2007
If you were lesbians, you'd already be living together.
It was a date.
posted by rtha at 6:58 PM on August 4, 2007
It was a date.
posted by rtha at 6:58 PM on August 4, 2007
Ohhhhh, very funny, rtha!
Okay, lesbian here. Back when I was a lot more single than I am right now, it was sort of horrible going anywhere with any other gay girl for the first few times. You both know you're gay. What you don't know is if you should be flirting with each other, like dates do, or talking about who in the vicinity is hot, like friends do. It can be maddening!
With one woman in particular, I finally had to come out and ask, "Should we go on an actual DATE? Or do I stop putting on control-top tights when we go out for dinner?" It's possible that after a few more instances of ambiguity, one or the other of you will have to stop being subtle and clarify things. Humor helps. In the case I refer to, the woman decided NOT to date me, and we proceeded to begin one of my best friendships ever. Ever.
posted by houseofdanie at 7:45 PM on August 4, 2007 [1 favorite]
Okay, lesbian here. Back when I was a lot more single than I am right now, it was sort of horrible going anywhere with any other gay girl for the first few times. You both know you're gay. What you don't know is if you should be flirting with each other, like dates do, or talking about who in the vicinity is hot, like friends do. It can be maddening!
With one woman in particular, I finally had to come out and ask, "Should we go on an actual DATE? Or do I stop putting on control-top tights when we go out for dinner?" It's possible that after a few more instances of ambiguity, one or the other of you will have to stop being subtle and clarify things. Humor helps. In the case I refer to, the woman decided NOT to date me, and we proceeded to begin one of my best friendships ever. Ever.
posted by houseofdanie at 7:45 PM on August 4, 2007 [1 favorite]
No blowjob? It wasn't a date.
I jest. Gay guy here. Sounds like a date to me. You guys have had a very promising first dinner together; once he lands in your time zone, go get him, tiger. Masturbation might help you stay sane until then.
posted by roger ackroyd at 8:02 PM on August 4, 2007
I jest. Gay guy here. Sounds like a date to me. You guys have had a very promising first dinner together; once he lands in your time zone, go get him, tiger. Masturbation might help you stay sane until then.
posted by roger ackroyd at 8:02 PM on August 4, 2007
Slightly different perspective: if at all possible, try not to worry too much about whether it was a date (not the easiest thing, I know). It definitely sounds like this guy is into you, and it sounds like he knows that you're into him as well. If it were me, I'd go with nicwolff's suggestion to offer to help him move in when he gets to town.
As far as a second date, I don't think you should "expect" anything. Relevant quote: "Expectations are resentments under construction" (Anne Lamott). That said, I DO think you will see him again, because he sounds really interested in you!
You sound like an overanalyzer (I'm one, too). As far as that goes, maybe you can spend the next month checking out cool/romantic places/things to do in your city. That way, when this guy gets there, you'll be in a perfect position to show him around (wink). Plus, you'll have lots of interesting things to talk about (thus reducing the risk of not being able to talk about anything other than him and how great he is and how you're so glad he's moved to your city so you guys can spend lots more time together and how you missed him so much even though you don't know him that well but you can just feel that there's a connection there and that it was meant to be, as you might if you spend the month sitting at home pining away).
Finally, "trouble?" I don't see anything troubling about your situation at all. In fact, I'd LOVE to be in the same position with regard to my crush! Embrace the delicious, tantalizing ambiguity of the situation as it currently stands.
posted by splendid animal at 8:33 PM on August 4, 2007
As far as a second date, I don't think you should "expect" anything. Relevant quote: "Expectations are resentments under construction" (Anne Lamott). That said, I DO think you will see him again, because he sounds really interested in you!
You sound like an overanalyzer (I'm one, too). As far as that goes, maybe you can spend the next month checking out cool/romantic places/things to do in your city. That way, when this guy gets there, you'll be in a perfect position to show him around (wink). Plus, you'll have lots of interesting things to talk about (thus reducing the risk of not being able to talk about anything other than him and how great he is and how you're so glad he's moved to your city so you guys can spend lots more time together and how you missed him so much even though you don't know him that well but you can just feel that there's a connection there and that it was meant to be, as you might if you spend the month sitting at home pining away).
Finally, "trouble?" I don't see anything troubling about your situation at all. In fact, I'd LOVE to be in the same position with regard to my crush! Embrace the delicious, tantalizing ambiguity of the situation as it currently stands.
posted by splendid animal at 8:33 PM on August 4, 2007
Does it matter? Do you like him? Press onward. Seems like you are really asking "does he like me?" Who knows. He might not even know.
Since I'm not gay, I don't know, but if it was a girl, I'd think she was waiting for a kiss if you guys pulled over.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:15 PM on August 4, 2007
Since I'm not gay, I don't know, but if it was a girl, I'd think she was waiting for a kiss if you guys pulled over.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:15 PM on August 4, 2007
I think it was a date, but be aware: gay men flake out A LOT in my experience relative to other social groups. I really hope you get a second date, callback, etc. Don't be surprised if you don't hear anything ever again or get mixed-signals if you do. Try not to take that too personally and let it get you down if it happens.
posted by dendrite at 11:16 PM on August 4, 2007
posted by dendrite at 11:16 PM on August 4, 2007
I think it was a date, but be aware: gay men flake out A LOT in my experience relative to other social groups.
In other words: it was a first date.
If he doesn't flake out, then that's amazing relative to most first dates.
If he does flake out, then that's normal for a first date.
Again, these aren't caveats to the proposition that it was a first date; these are just affirming that it was a first date. If you have no idea what's going on, then it has been a normal first date. This is the most normal possible situation.
posted by jejune at 2:52 AM on August 5, 2007
In other words: it was a first date.
If he doesn't flake out, then that's amazing relative to most first dates.
If he does flake out, then that's normal for a first date.
Again, these aren't caveats to the proposition that it was a first date; these are just affirming that it was a first date. If you have no idea what's going on, then it has been a normal first date. This is the most normal possible situation.
posted by jejune at 2:52 AM on August 5, 2007
Not every date starts as one. This sounds like it ended up one. But dude, as a straight girl, let me tell you that you seem to be waaaay overanalyzing everything worse than any girl and you might screw up something nice if you keep it up. Just relax, see him again and see what develops. Stop fretting so much.
posted by CunningLinguist at 6:20 AM on August 5, 2007
posted by CunningLinguist at 6:20 AM on August 5, 2007
Response by poster: Hey guys,
Thanks so much for your thoughts. I'm done thinking and worrying about this and I'm glad to know that it really sounds like there's potential for a second date. We'll see what happens! Thanks again :)
Corey
posted by cscott at 9:39 AM on August 5, 2007
Thanks so much for your thoughts. I'm done thinking and worrying about this and I'm glad to know that it really sounds like there's potential for a second date. We'll see what happens! Thanks again :)
Corey
posted by cscott at 9:39 AM on August 5, 2007
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posted by MCTDavid at 4:37 PM on August 4, 2007