Should I be worrying my pretty little head over this?
July 29, 2007 12:25 AM Subscribe
Unfortunately, my sister is apparently Anna Nicole Smith crazy/toxic (but worse, and minus Anna's endearing qualities). My parents are getting old, and in his will my father is splitting everything he owns (property & assets) down the middle between the two of us. I'm terrified of what's ahead of me... just petrified. Sorry there's so much
I don't speak to my sister. She is a decade older than me and not only has she displayed uber weird jealousy issues towards me since the day I was born, but she is possibly the most toxic human I've ever met. Breaks my heart, but I've seen her absolutely ruin other people's lives and I didn't want to be her victim so I walked away with my hands in the air many years ago. I live a state away so I've been able to distance myself. Tried hard to be a good sister but realized I had nothing to work with.
Sadly, the woman is completely incapable of healthy, normal behavior plus she's a compulsive liar on top of that. On top of severe manic depression, she's had a history of drug and alcohol problems & is now fully embracing a nice big gambling addiction. I've been told she's earned $400,000 a year in corporate real estate... yet she bounced a $150 check to repay money she borrowed from my geriatric mother (twice!), apparently writes bad checks regularly & the grapevine has told me that she has been caught embezzling from friends/family/clients more than once. I know for a fact that she got caught after numerous attempts to clear out my father's bank accounts at an Indian casino by attempting to forge his pin number. She's also about to be evicted for not having paid rent on her $2000 a month apartment in 7 months.
I don't fathom or relate to any of this, I am totally apalled & in shock. But what I fathom even less is that SOMEHOW, throughout all of this she's STILL convinced enabling people to loan her money and support her until they end up declaring bankruptcy themselves. I only found out recently that her last husband was even driven to suicide (she told me he had a heart attack). It all really makes me ill. I would prefer to love and support a sister, but I can't. And please don't encourage me to help her... we're waaay past that. I consider her to be Anna Nicole Smith tragic scary at this point & I'm just trying to live my life without any of her crazy rubbing off on me.
Okay, so that's the background, now onto what I'm worried about. See, I'm not good with money myself, I'm a right brained creative type. I get very insecure because I KNOW I'm a bit retarded with anything involving red tape or forms or numbers in general, and this has been a problem for me in life. But I really want to be better than that. I want to learn how to be more successful and hold onto my money. Meanwhile, while my sister has massive problems and can't hold onto money either, she's actually really SMART with numbers... she's a high-end corporate real estate broker & can talk circles around me on that stuff. She understands a lot of things I don't have a clue about, and SHE KNOWS IT. So I know when my father passes away that she's going to declare herself an expert on these things and wage a covert war on me to get more of his property and estate. I believe everything is in a living trust, but if it's 50/50 that means that my sister and I are going to have to work together... and I am horrified at the prospect. Nothing with my sister is 50/50. She doesn't roll that way.
I don't want anything to do with any of this, it's my nature to just walk away. But I know that a smart person would have experts ready to take control of things and fight for their interests... I'd like to learn how to be smart like that instead of just giving in to my sister. I really don't want to be chalked up as another one of her victims. I tried to talk to my mother about this (my parents aren't together) but she snapped at me and said that by talking about it at all I sound negative and greedy. That offended me because I am SO not greedy. But I know my mother just wants me to sweep these problems under the rug so she doesn't have to think about my sister being evil because it hurts her. Truth is, unlike my sister I honestly don't care what I get as long as I'm treated fairly... my issue is that I don't want to be another one of my sister's victims. I don't want her to wreck my life too, and I know I'm being put into the line of fire... especially since my sister's credit is so bad that her house is in my father's name and if he dies I'm going to get half of HER house too.
Honestly, if I had a choice of owning my father's property or having a normal family, I'd choose the normal family.
So... does anyone have any advice? Should I be worried about this? Or should I just bury my head in the sand like everyone else in my family? Should I just take it as it comes or try to prepare for the war? What do I DOOOOOOO? Jesus, this sucks rocks.
I don't speak to my sister. She is a decade older than me and not only has she displayed uber weird jealousy issues towards me since the day I was born, but she is possibly the most toxic human I've ever met. Breaks my heart, but I've seen her absolutely ruin other people's lives and I didn't want to be her victim so I walked away with my hands in the air many years ago. I live a state away so I've been able to distance myself. Tried hard to be a good sister but realized I had nothing to work with.
Sadly, the woman is completely incapable of healthy, normal behavior plus she's a compulsive liar on top of that. On top of severe manic depression, she's had a history of drug and alcohol problems & is now fully embracing a nice big gambling addiction. I've been told she's earned $400,000 a year in corporate real estate... yet she bounced a $150 check to repay money she borrowed from my geriatric mother (twice!), apparently writes bad checks regularly & the grapevine has told me that she has been caught embezzling from friends/family/clients more than once. I know for a fact that she got caught after numerous attempts to clear out my father's bank accounts at an Indian casino by attempting to forge his pin number. She's also about to be evicted for not having paid rent on her $2000 a month apartment in 7 months.
I don't fathom or relate to any of this, I am totally apalled & in shock. But what I fathom even less is that SOMEHOW, throughout all of this she's STILL convinced enabling people to loan her money and support her until they end up declaring bankruptcy themselves. I only found out recently that her last husband was even driven to suicide (she told me he had a heart attack). It all really makes me ill. I would prefer to love and support a sister, but I can't. And please don't encourage me to help her... we're waaay past that. I consider her to be Anna Nicole Smith tragic scary at this point & I'm just trying to live my life without any of her crazy rubbing off on me.
Okay, so that's the background, now onto what I'm worried about. See, I'm not good with money myself, I'm a right brained creative type. I get very insecure because I KNOW I'm a bit retarded with anything involving red tape or forms or numbers in general, and this has been a problem for me in life. But I really want to be better than that. I want to learn how to be more successful and hold onto my money. Meanwhile, while my sister has massive problems and can't hold onto money either, she's actually really SMART with numbers... she's a high-end corporate real estate broker & can talk circles around me on that stuff. She understands a lot of things I don't have a clue about, and SHE KNOWS IT. So I know when my father passes away that she's going to declare herself an expert on these things and wage a covert war on me to get more of his property and estate. I believe everything is in a living trust, but if it's 50/50 that means that my sister and I are going to have to work together... and I am horrified at the prospect. Nothing with my sister is 50/50. She doesn't roll that way.
I don't want anything to do with any of this, it's my nature to just walk away. But I know that a smart person would have experts ready to take control of things and fight for their interests... I'd like to learn how to be smart like that instead of just giving in to my sister. I really don't want to be chalked up as another one of her victims. I tried to talk to my mother about this (my parents aren't together) but she snapped at me and said that by talking about it at all I sound negative and greedy. That offended me because I am SO not greedy. But I know my mother just wants me to sweep these problems under the rug so she doesn't have to think about my sister being evil because it hurts her. Truth is, unlike my sister I honestly don't care what I get as long as I'm treated fairly... my issue is that I don't want to be another one of my sister's victims. I don't want her to wreck my life too, and I know I'm being put into the line of fire... especially since my sister's credit is so bad that her house is in my father's name and if he dies I'm going to get half of HER house too.
Honestly, if I had a choice of owning my father's property or having a normal family, I'd choose the normal family.
So... does anyone have any advice? Should I be worried about this? Or should I just bury my head in the sand like everyone else in my family? Should I just take it as it comes or try to prepare for the war? What do I DOOOOOOO? Jesus, this sucks rocks.
Seriously, half the time I think people are overreacting when they say get a lawyer, but here its totally warranted. I work at a law firm that handles a lot of this stuff, and wooooo, it is messy, even without a crazy manipulative sister in the mix. I know you want to be able to handle things yourself, but in such a complicated field and with emotions running high, it is really in your best interest to find a competent attorney and remove yourself from dealing with it except through that attorney. Good luck!
posted by wuzandfuzz at 12:56 AM on July 29, 2007
posted by wuzandfuzz at 12:56 AM on July 29, 2007
Thirding the advice to get a lawyer. This is why they're employed - to work out situations like this.
However...I also have a mentally ill sister, and when the time comes to divvy up my parents' estate I'm not going to challenge her. My brother is the executor of the will, I believe, so I'm sure he'll carry that out, but if there's anything that's open to interpretation I'm not going to fight. There's a difference between being a victim and picking your battles. This could be an instance where it's not worth the fight.
posted by christinetheslp at 1:08 AM on July 29, 2007
However...I also have a mentally ill sister, and when the time comes to divvy up my parents' estate I'm not going to challenge her. My brother is the executor of the will, I believe, so I'm sure he'll carry that out, but if there's anything that's open to interpretation I'm not going to fight. There's a difference between being a victim and picking your battles. This could be an instance where it's not worth the fight.
posted by christinetheslp at 1:08 AM on July 29, 2007
My parents feared for similar problems with my brother and discussed this with the notary and changed their will accordingly. So now I'm the executor of the will.
posted by jouke at 1:08 AM on July 29, 2007
posted by jouke at 1:08 AM on July 29, 2007
I agree with Electrius and wuzandfuzz; you should get a lawyer right now, before your dad passes away and the will becomes an issue. That way, you will have someone standing by to spring into action when you need it.
And when the time comes that you and your sister are dealing with your dad's estate--do everything through your lawyer. Don't contact your sister yourself or talk to her without your lawyer there. It sounds like there is no point trying to connect with her emotionally, so don't bother trying. That is what your lawyer is there for. Your sister won't be able to manipulate your lawyer the way she'll try to manipulate you.
And, because you mention that you feel insecure about your money management skills, you might want to get a financial advisor right now, to help you with your own money. Then you can feel a little more in control of your own situation, at least.
Good luck.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 1:08 AM on July 29, 2007
And when the time comes that you and your sister are dealing with your dad's estate--do everything through your lawyer. Don't contact your sister yourself or talk to her without your lawyer there. It sounds like there is no point trying to connect with her emotionally, so don't bother trying. That is what your lawyer is there for. Your sister won't be able to manipulate your lawyer the way she'll try to manipulate you.
And, because you mention that you feel insecure about your money management skills, you might want to get a financial advisor right now, to help you with your own money. Then you can feel a little more in control of your own situation, at least.
Good luck.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 1:08 AM on July 29, 2007
You want fair, but you're being forced into an unfair situation. That probably means getting a lawyer. But first see if you can find out if your parents have, in fact, set up a living trust, and who the trustee is. If it's their lawyer, a chat with the lawyer might clarify what your options are.
posted by dws at 1:15 AM on July 29, 2007
posted by dws at 1:15 AM on July 29, 2007
Is your father not designating a third-party executor?
If he's not, I don't know how open he would be to the suggestion of a professional, neutral third party to be one, but that would be another key in this, if it's possible. You will still want attorney representation, but a neutral executor would help immensely.
If somehow your sister is the designated executor, you are in for a wild ride.
posted by maxwelton at 1:16 AM on July 29, 2007
If he's not, I don't know how open he would be to the suggestion of a professional, neutral third party to be one, but that would be another key in this, if it's possible. You will still want attorney representation, but a neutral executor would help immensely.
If somehow your sister is the designated executor, you are in for a wild ride.
posted by maxwelton at 1:16 AM on July 29, 2007
Sounds like a lawyer will cost you less than your sister will.
posted by flabdablet at 1:39 AM on July 29, 2007
posted by flabdablet at 1:39 AM on July 29, 2007
Be prepared emotionally for her managing to steal money out of the estate, and/or sue you. Also, if your parents experience the slightest bit of dementia before dying, she'll probably try for a conservatorship, and/or try to poison them against you. No amount of money is worth dealing with someone that toxic, so get a lawyer to deal with everything you can fob off on them.
Maybe talk to the lawyer about a private detective? If you can get your sister convicted for some crime or fraud she is perpetrating, you'd probably have less of a fight on your hands.
posted by BrotherCaine at 6:54 AM on July 29, 2007
Maybe talk to the lawyer about a private detective? If you can get your sister convicted for some crime or fraud she is perpetrating, you'd probably have less of a fight on your hands.
posted by BrotherCaine at 6:54 AM on July 29, 2007
My dad had to deal with this when his dad died, and it got pretty nasty. He ended up writing a document in which he forfeited any and all property from either parent. I thought it was a quitclaim, but google says otherwise.
I did find this book, which might help you out. The authors don't claim that it's an estate planning guide, but rather a guide on family feuds. The authors also have a site where you can possibly get referrals in your area.
posted by lysdexic at 7:29 AM on July 29, 2007
I did find this book, which might help you out. The authors don't claim that it's an estate planning guide, but rather a guide on family feuds. The authors also have a site where you can possibly get referrals in your area.
posted by lysdexic at 7:29 AM on July 29, 2007
your dad's gonna split his estate between the two of you 50-50, and you think this is unfair? i thought it was most unseemly and unbecoming for you to expend so much effort slagging your sister on here, and i'd be curious to hear her side of the story. you didn't tell us who the executor is going to be, or what you consider to be a fair disposition (all to you?). it's your dad's money, he can do whatever he wants with it. if there is trouble with the probate, yes, you have the right to counsel. meanwhile, treat whatever you get as found money and please stop complaining about this to strangers, because some of us don't give a damn.
a family is just a poker hand dealt from the big deck of souls; there are no guarantees of compatibility/friendship/love. you are not your adult sister's keeper. try to find the serenity to accept the things you cannot change.
posted by bruce at 8:51 AM on July 29, 2007
a family is just a poker hand dealt from the big deck of souls; there are no guarantees of compatibility/friendship/love. you are not your adult sister's keeper. try to find the serenity to accept the things you cannot change.
posted by bruce at 8:51 AM on July 29, 2007
Not only get a lawyer now, but when the time comes deal with inheritance matters exclusively through that lawyer. Refuse to have any conversation whatsoever about the estate with your sister. Head her off by saying "Oh, my lawyer is handling all that and she told me not to even talk about it. Do you need her number?" Repeat, repeat, repeat.
I also agree to prepare yourself emotionally for the possibility of evil sister ending up with everything. She is there and you are not, she is smart and without scruples and has addictions to feed. If she steals all the money and blows it at a casino or wherever, you aren't getting any of it back.
Good luck. This sounds awful.
posted by LarryC at 8:57 AM on July 29, 2007
I also agree to prepare yourself emotionally for the possibility of evil sister ending up with everything. She is there and you are not, she is smart and without scruples and has addictions to feed. If she steals all the money and blows it at a casino or wherever, you aren't getting any of it back.
Good luck. This sounds awful.
posted by LarryC at 8:57 AM on July 29, 2007
The OP does think that 50-50 is fair, and is afraid that her sister will try to manipulate her out of the 50%. Why the hating?
posted by umbú at 9:10 AM on July 29, 2007
posted by umbú at 9:10 AM on July 29, 2007
I think you might be totally missing the point she's making, bruce. It sounds like she would be fine with 50/50 but that it's clear her sister is not someone who ever would be. It's quite possible that her sister would wage a war against her with everything she has to get everything, no matter the consequences to others. Which, ISN'T fair to the OP. That's what people with severe addictions do, though.
And it sounds like she has no interest in slagging her sister, she clearly loves her but has distanced herself and lived her life differently to avoid conflict out of necessity. Not knowing the people, it's unfair to fault and judge her so nastily for recognizing that she may be being put in the line of fire for future Hell. She's just trying to be smart and avoid being a victim of someone who has, allegedly, been caught victimizing many people already. Perhaps she's not trying to badmouth her sister but is actually just being forced to face unfortunate truths... some of us have siblings who are actually just that sociopathic, and when you do sometimes you are forced to face the facts in order to protect yourself. It's a defensive survival instinct -- she's trying to protect her sister from taking everything her father wants her to have. She's trying to avoid a war after hearing gunfire on the horizon. That's a far cry from just badmouthing a sibling to be bitchy.
posted by miss lynnster at 9:28 AM on July 29, 2007 [1 favorite]
And it sounds like she has no interest in slagging her sister, she clearly loves her but has distanced herself and lived her life differently to avoid conflict out of necessity. Not knowing the people, it's unfair to fault and judge her so nastily for recognizing that she may be being put in the line of fire for future Hell. She's just trying to be smart and avoid being a victim of someone who has, allegedly, been caught victimizing many people already. Perhaps she's not trying to badmouth her sister but is actually just being forced to face unfortunate truths... some of us have siblings who are actually just that sociopathic, and when you do sometimes you are forced to face the facts in order to protect yourself. It's a defensive survival instinct -- she's trying to protect her sister from taking everything her father wants her to have. She's trying to avoid a war after hearing gunfire on the horizon. That's a far cry from just badmouthing a sibling to be bitchy.
posted by miss lynnster at 9:28 AM on July 29, 2007 [1 favorite]
she alleged to us that her sister drove her husband to suicide. that told me a lot - about her. apparently, there is no laundry in this family so dirty that she won't put it in our face to advance her position. in a court of law handling the estate, this evidence would not only be inadmissible, counsel broaching the topic would be rebuked by the court. there isn't an evidence code in the court of metafilter, so who knows what the ultimate ruling will be, appeal it to the mods if you like, and if they nuke me, i will cheerfully go about my business as always.
posted by bruce at 9:38 AM on July 29, 2007
posted by bruce at 9:38 AM on July 29, 2007
Talk to your dad about putting a neutral third party in place as the executor and/or trustee because you want to keep peace in the family.
It might be a good idea to get a lawyer. Do take a class in financial and estate planning at your local community college or continuing ed center. These classes exist to help people like you understand financial issues, and learning the basics here will be much cheaper than having the lawyer tutor you. If you can't do classes, try a book.
If you are counting on the trust to dispense your father's assets, make sure he has actually funded the trust. If this doesn't make any sense, read it after you take some classes.
posted by yohko at 9:50 AM on July 29, 2007
It might be a good idea to get a lawyer. Do take a class in financial and estate planning at your local community college or continuing ed center. These classes exist to help people like you understand financial issues, and learning the basics here will be much cheaper than having the lawyer tutor you. If you can't do classes, try a book.
If you are counting on the trust to dispense your father's assets, make sure he has actually funded the trust. If this doesn't make any sense, read it after you take some classes.
posted by yohko at 9:50 AM on July 29, 2007
she alleged to us that her sister drove her husband to suicide. that told me a lot - about her. apparently, there is no laundry in this family so dirty that she won't put it in our face to advance her position. in a court of law handling the estate, this evidence would not only be inadmissible ...
Who said anything about admissibility? Anonymous didn't. She's just trying to give us background on how toxic and deranged her sister is. Sounds like Bruce is a bit too eager to throw his legal training in our faces.
Anyway, yes, get a lawyer ... but more importantly, get a GOOD lawyer. If the estate in question is a large one, go to a lawyer at a big, prestigious firm, where the wills and trusts lawyers are conversant in big estates. Don't just pick a lawyer in the phonebook who advertises for "probate." Choosing the wrong lawyer could cost you as much as your deranged sister.
posted by jayder at 9:50 AM on July 29, 2007
Who said anything about admissibility? Anonymous didn't. She's just trying to give us background on how toxic and deranged her sister is. Sounds like Bruce is a bit too eager to throw his legal training in our faces.
Anyway, yes, get a lawyer ... but more importantly, get a GOOD lawyer. If the estate in question is a large one, go to a lawyer at a big, prestigious firm, where the wills and trusts lawyers are conversant in big estates. Don't just pick a lawyer in the phonebook who advertises for "probate." Choosing the wrong lawyer could cost you as much as your deranged sister.
posted by jayder at 9:50 AM on July 29, 2007
in a court of law handling the estate, this evidence would not only be inadmissible, counsel broaching the topic would be rebuked by the court.
That's nice, but it doesn't invalidate any of her fears that her sister is going to go after the whole estate, whether above board or below. That happens in incredibly many cases, with people who are generally considered to be normal.
posted by oaf at 10:11 AM on July 29, 2007
That's nice, but it doesn't invalidate any of her fears that her sister is going to go after the whole estate, whether above board or below. That happens in incredibly many cases, with people who are generally considered to be normal.
posted by oaf at 10:11 AM on July 29, 2007
Get a really good lawyer. Preferably a young, type-A female lawyer. Men and older women are too controlled by this paternalistic (maternalistic) feeling that will pity her and see you, as a non-needy person, as nothing more than your sister's roadblock.
posted by dagnyscott at 10:46 AM on July 29, 2007
posted by dagnyscott at 10:46 AM on July 29, 2007
Another advantage to having a lawyer is that another person might view this situation more objectively than you. It's clear that you have a lot of unfortunate history with your sister. A less involved third party will help you act rather than react to whatever develops.
posted by SPrintF at 10:58 AM on July 29, 2007
posted by SPrintF at 10:58 AM on July 29, 2007
That's nice, but it doesn't invalidate any of her fears that her sister is going to go after the whole estate, whether above board or below. That happens in incredibly many cases, with people who are generally considered to be normal.
Indeed. When I did paralegal work, I witnessed otherwise rational, reasonable, responsible adults revert to screaming, entitled children in a heartbeat when a deceased relative's will went into probate. The OP's fears are completely founded, and nowhere in their post did I read a desire to deprive her sister of half the parents' estates; rather, it seems, the OP fears her sister will pathologically seek to claim more than her fair share of the estate. (Apologies, anon, if you are a "he" and not a "she".)
Anecdotally, an attorney I worked with for many years often advised families to investigate a Revocable Living Trust to avoid the nastiness that might potentially ensue during probate of a will. He recommended this to families in a similar situation to yours - a particularly bad apple amongst the whole bunch, a sizeable estate, frightened relatives wanting to stave off a rancorous legal battle after the fact, etc. Anonymous, suggesting this to your parents might not be a bad idea, particularly since it places the focus squarely back where it ought to be, IMO and experience, when navigating a parent's imminent passing - on the adherence to their wishes after the fact. No, it's not a pleasant thing to remind a parent of their mortality or to seem "greedy" or selfish or what have you. Still, persist in keeping the lines of communication open with your parents regarding what you want for them and what you want for yourself. Yes, your mother may deflect in order to salve her own guilt feelings or anxiety - so be it. Quietly weather this particular storm calmly and rationally, framing the discussion around making sure what your parents want for their children - of which YOU are one - is done after they pass on. A Trust may not be the best option for them, but the ultimate point is to investigate all options before it's too late. Unpleasant as they are, these issues need to be discussed. Also, bear in mind that your sister is undoubtedly in their ears about this issue, as well. A sharp contrast in approach between the two of you might impress your parents to the point that they quietly reconsider their choices regarding their respective estates.
Nthing talking to a lawyer and, as jayder suggests, spending some time seeking out the best one for you. Also, as mentioned above, do not engage your sister, indulge an attack of conscience in the spirit of reconciliation and talk in earnest with her about mom and dad's passing, or sign anything forfeiting your claim to your parents estate. Let your lawyer do the all the talking, letter writing, calling, etc.
Best of luck.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 11:02 AM on July 29, 2007
Indeed. When I did paralegal work, I witnessed otherwise rational, reasonable, responsible adults revert to screaming, entitled children in a heartbeat when a deceased relative's will went into probate. The OP's fears are completely founded, and nowhere in their post did I read a desire to deprive her sister of half the parents' estates; rather, it seems, the OP fears her sister will pathologically seek to claim more than her fair share of the estate. (Apologies, anon, if you are a "he" and not a "she".)
Anecdotally, an attorney I worked with for many years often advised families to investigate a Revocable Living Trust to avoid the nastiness that might potentially ensue during probate of a will. He recommended this to families in a similar situation to yours - a particularly bad apple amongst the whole bunch, a sizeable estate, frightened relatives wanting to stave off a rancorous legal battle after the fact, etc. Anonymous, suggesting this to your parents might not be a bad idea, particularly since it places the focus squarely back where it ought to be, IMO and experience, when navigating a parent's imminent passing - on the adherence to their wishes after the fact. No, it's not a pleasant thing to remind a parent of their mortality or to seem "greedy" or selfish or what have you. Still, persist in keeping the lines of communication open with your parents regarding what you want for them and what you want for yourself. Yes, your mother may deflect in order to salve her own guilt feelings or anxiety - so be it. Quietly weather this particular storm calmly and rationally, framing the discussion around making sure what your parents want for their children - of which YOU are one - is done after they pass on. A Trust may not be the best option for them, but the ultimate point is to investigate all options before it's too late. Unpleasant as they are, these issues need to be discussed. Also, bear in mind that your sister is undoubtedly in their ears about this issue, as well. A sharp contrast in approach between the two of you might impress your parents to the point that they quietly reconsider their choices regarding their respective estates.
Nthing talking to a lawyer and, as jayder suggests, spending some time seeking out the best one for you. Also, as mentioned above, do not engage your sister, indulge an attack of conscience in the spirit of reconciliation and talk in earnest with her about mom and dad's passing, or sign anything forfeiting your claim to your parents estate. Let your lawyer do the all the talking, letter writing, calling, etc.
Best of luck.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 11:02 AM on July 29, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Electrius at 12:29 AM on July 29, 2007 [2 favorites]