How do I help my girlfriend know what she wants?
July 19, 2007 11:00 PM Subscribe
How do I get my girlfriend to "know her own feelings" about me?
Well it's kinda weird, I'm courting this one girl who I think is really great (I'm totally in love with her), and I think she really likes me too, but is just "unsure with herself." She's talked about having "personal walls" or something like that, and we've talked about it, and the more we spend time the closer we seem to get, and I've told her my feelings for her, that I love her very dearly, but she says she doesn't want to say it back if she's not sure of herself. I agree, but would sure like to help her know what it is she's feeling!
Also, lately I've just got this overwhelming sense that I just need to kiss her, but she's mentioned in the past that she's uncomfortable kissing people unless she's practically engaged. The only real advice I've gotten from others is, "Dude, get a new girl!" but I really, really adore her and don't think I could ever find another quite like her.
So is there anything I can do or am I just a hopelessly lost romantic guy? :P
Well it's kinda weird, I'm courting this one girl who I think is really great (I'm totally in love with her), and I think she really likes me too, but is just "unsure with herself." She's talked about having "personal walls" or something like that, and we've talked about it, and the more we spend time the closer we seem to get, and I've told her my feelings for her, that I love her very dearly, but she says she doesn't want to say it back if she's not sure of herself. I agree, but would sure like to help her know what it is she's feeling!
Also, lately I've just got this overwhelming sense that I just need to kiss her, but she's mentioned in the past that she's uncomfortable kissing people unless she's practically engaged. The only real advice I've gotten from others is, "Dude, get a new girl!" but I really, really adore her and don't think I could ever find another quite like her.
So is there anything I can do or am I just a hopelessly lost romantic guy? :P
Response by poster: no, she IS. I mean, I can tell, and she basically tells me that we're "more than just really good friends," and stuff, but for some reason she's just so darn confused about this thing.
It's really confusing. :P Otherwise I wouldn't have bothered posting.
posted by macsigler at 11:05 PM on July 19, 2007
It's really confusing. :P Otherwise I wouldn't have bothered posting.
posted by macsigler at 11:05 PM on July 19, 2007
Also, lately I've just got this overwhelming sense that I just need to kiss her, but she's mentioned in the past that she's uncomfortable kissing people unless she's practically engaged.
This is the operative sentence.
She's either completely manufacturing this to keep you at bay but try to spare your feelings, which is bad, or she really believes this and has no idea what intimacy and a real relationship entail, which is worse.
Despite the bluntness of Crotalus' remark, I think s/he is right. She probably enjoys spending time with you, maybe you're a good friend, but she's just not that into you.
Sorry. Move on. Tell her to contact you if she works out her feelings.
On preview: you can't "tell" she is, or else you wouldn't be insecure and asking strangers for advice on this very personal topic.
posted by Ynoxas at 11:10 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
This is the operative sentence.
She's either completely manufacturing this to keep you at bay but try to spare your feelings, which is bad, or she really believes this and has no idea what intimacy and a real relationship entail, which is worse.
Despite the bluntness of Crotalus' remark, I think s/he is right. She probably enjoys spending time with you, maybe you're a good friend, but she's just not that into you.
Sorry. Move on. Tell her to contact you if she works out her feelings.
On preview: you can't "tell" she is, or else you wouldn't be insecure and asking strangers for advice on this very personal topic.
posted by Ynoxas at 11:10 PM on July 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
Are you confused? If she wanted to be your girlfriend, she wouldn't be confused. Steer clear, these be dangerous waters.
posted by ludwig_van at 11:11 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by ludwig_van at 11:11 PM on July 19, 2007
There's a nicer way to say it, but if she doesn't know, she never will.
posted by OrangeDrink at 11:18 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by OrangeDrink at 11:18 PM on July 19, 2007
Seconding all other commenters. Waiting around for this girl to figure it all out is likely to be painful and not even work. The sooner you move on the sooner you'll feel better.
posted by TypographicalError at 11:19 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by TypographicalError at 11:19 PM on July 19, 2007
Are you, by any chance, buying her dinners, trinkets, etc on a regular basis? Do you serve as her "sounding board" or amateur therapist? In other words, are there indications that you are either being used or are trapped in the "friend zone"?
posted by Crotalus at 11:20 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by Crotalus at 11:20 PM on July 19, 2007
She's either completely manufacturing this to keep you at bay but try to spare your feelings, which is bad, or she really believes this and has no idea what intimacy and a real relationship entail, which is worse.
Listen to that quote of Ynoxas'.
posted by flibbertigibbet at 11:26 PM on July 19, 2007
Listen to that quote of Ynoxas'.
posted by flibbertigibbet at 11:26 PM on July 19, 2007
She doesn't want to be with you, but she's too much of a coward to just break it off.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 11:32 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 11:32 PM on July 19, 2007
You could keep hassling her, and thus turn her right off and then her feelings would become fairly obvious.
I don't recommend it though.
posted by pompomtom at 11:33 PM on July 19, 2007
I don't recommend it though.
posted by pompomtom at 11:33 PM on July 19, 2007
If she can't sort out how she feels when she's AROUND you, then perhaps you should give her a chance to sort out her feelings with you not around. Your absence may help her to understand how she may feel if you are not a given in her life. I say you should break up with her - if she wants you back you'll know (and she'll know) it is genuine interest and affection at work. If she doesn't want to get back together, well, it's better to find that out now. Whatever you do, don't keep expressing your feelings for her - it will only draw attention to her ambivalence.
posted by sherlockt at 11:39 PM on July 19, 2007
posted by sherlockt at 11:39 PM on July 19, 2007
You don't want her to know what she wants, you want her to know that she loves you. But she doesn't. You might think that her "confusion" is her in a state that's just about to tip one way or the other, but it's not. It's going to stay, and any effort you put into trying to tip her will be sucked out of you and wasted until you are left feeling empty and stuck right where you started.
Being a "hopeless romantic" is not as romantic as it sounds. You can find plenty of other girls to have real romance with.
posted by buriednexttoyou at 11:39 PM on July 19, 2007 [2 favorites]
Being a "hopeless romantic" is not as romantic as it sounds. You can find plenty of other girls to have real romance with.
posted by buriednexttoyou at 11:39 PM on July 19, 2007 [2 favorites]
You don't want her to know what she wants, you want her to know that she loves you.
Search your feelings macsigler, you KNOW this to be true.
posted by Crotalus at 11:43 PM on July 19, 2007
Search your feelings macsigler, you KNOW this to be true.
posted by Crotalus at 11:43 PM on July 19, 2007
Response by poster: she really believes this and has no idea what intimacy and a real relationship entail, which is worse.
I think this is the case. :P
Um...Well, this is just a random idea, will kissing her to find out what she really thinks be such a bad idea? :P
posted by macsigler at 11:53 PM on July 19, 2007
I think this is the case. :P
Um...Well, this is just a random idea, will kissing her to find out what she really thinks be such a bad idea? :P
posted by macsigler at 11:53 PM on July 19, 2007
I'm really sorry. I've totally been there (in the roll of "The Girl") and I cringe looking back on it.
She's confused because here you are, attentive, caring, devoted, and in almost every way perfect--and the sticking point is the almost. There's something that's just not clicking for her and it's either something she doesn't feel comfortable asking you to change, or something that can't be changed... And it's something she feels bad about disliking, too. So instead of admitting that the something is a deal breaker and moving on, she tries to convince herself that she is into you, which she can't do. Not really fair to you, but she can't see that because she's trying to will herself up to embracing whatever it is she doesn't like about you (which feels very much like finding the courage to make a sacrifice, with added guilt for thinking about it like that in the first place).
This is sometimes known as "the friend zone" but it's not really an accurate name. It's not that having been a long term friend makes you unattractive, it's just that two available who are really into each other rarely make it to the long term friendship without giving romance a go.
Also don't assume that because you give her stuff (or intangibles like a listening ear) that she's playing you for those things. If you go back to the main point you can see that giving her stuff just makes her feel more guilty, more like she owes you something that she can't find it in herself to repay. Especially if she says "You shouldn't have." when you bring her something, she really means it.
My story had a relatively happy ending, I finally got up the nerve to tell "The Guy" that it was really never going to work out. He found another girl who is really much more suitable and I think they're still together.
Summation: Move on.
posted by anaelith at 12:06 AM on July 20, 2007 [21 favorites]
She's confused because here you are, attentive, caring, devoted, and in almost every way perfect--and the sticking point is the almost. There's something that's just not clicking for her and it's either something she doesn't feel comfortable asking you to change, or something that can't be changed... And it's something she feels bad about disliking, too. So instead of admitting that the something is a deal breaker and moving on, she tries to convince herself that she is into you, which she can't do. Not really fair to you, but she can't see that because she's trying to will herself up to embracing whatever it is she doesn't like about you (which feels very much like finding the courage to make a sacrifice, with added guilt for thinking about it like that in the first place).
This is sometimes known as "the friend zone" but it's not really an accurate name. It's not that having been a long term friend makes you unattractive, it's just that two available who are really into each other rarely make it to the long term friendship without giving romance a go.
Also don't assume that because you give her stuff (or intangibles like a listening ear) that she's playing you for those things. If you go back to the main point you can see that giving her stuff just makes her feel more guilty, more like she owes you something that she can't find it in herself to repay. Especially if she says "You shouldn't have." when you bring her something, she really means it.
My story had a relatively happy ending, I finally got up the nerve to tell "The Guy" that it was really never going to work out. He found another girl who is really much more suitable and I think they're still together.
Summation: Move on.
posted by anaelith at 12:06 AM on July 20, 2007 [21 favorites]
I've told her my feelings for her, that I love her very dearly
How long have you been together, anyway? You love her very dearly but you haven't even kissed her yet?
You might be crowding her. Try cooling it on the declarations of love. She can't move toward you if you're right up next to her, you know?
You've got to leave some space for the spark to jump.
posted by ottereroticist at 12:51 AM on July 20, 2007
How long have you been together, anyway? You love her very dearly but you haven't even kissed her yet?
You might be crowding her. Try cooling it on the declarations of love. She can't move toward you if you're right up next to her, you know?
You've got to leave some space for the spark to jump.
posted by ottereroticist at 12:51 AM on July 20, 2007
I could ever find another quite like her.
You're right. You can find some one better. Someone you could even kiss! *ghasp!*
Not to mention someone who would respect you enough to not string you along because she's too chikenshit to tell you she's just not that into you.
posted by Ookseer at 12:52 AM on July 20, 2007 [1 favorite]
You're right. You can find some one better. Someone you could even kiss! *ghasp!*
Not to mention someone who would respect you enough to not string you along because she's too chikenshit to tell you she's just not that into you.
posted by Ookseer at 12:52 AM on July 20, 2007 [1 favorite]
Macsigler you sound pretty young. Which is okay, I'm not exactly a senior citizen myself. But, really, this is some immature stuff she's feeding you. As Ynoxas said, it's either immature because she's stringing you along or immature because she's totally clueless about what a relationship is.
Either way, don't put up with it. Life is too short. Kiss her and see how she reacts. If she is into it, great. If she recoils with an EWWWWWWWW! sound, time to move on after picking up your ego off the floor.
posted by Justinian at 1:33 AM on July 20, 2007
Either way, don't put up with it. Life is too short. Kiss her and see how she reacts. If she is into it, great. If she recoils with an EWWWWWWWW! sound, time to move on after picking up your ego off the floor.
posted by Justinian at 1:33 AM on July 20, 2007
Not even kissing sounds extreme in the 21st century. If she's into you. But I don't think it means *necessarily* that she isn't into you. She may just be full of anxieties. Maybe with patience you can dispel those anxieties. But maybe it isn't really worth the necessary devotion and frustration and you'll be happier moving on. No easy answer.
posted by londongeezer at 2:13 AM on July 20, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by londongeezer at 2:13 AM on July 20, 2007 [1 favorite]
She is not that into you, asexual, a closet lesbian, or was molested as a child. In any case, move on.
posted by BrotherCaine at 3:40 AM on July 20, 2007
posted by BrotherCaine at 3:40 AM on July 20, 2007
In your profile, your web site is the LDS Church? Are you both Mormons? How old are you? Have you ever been in a relationship?
If I'm to understand this: You haven't even kissed her yet. Yet you call her your girlfriend and say you love her? That's way clingy. Many people would try to do anything to avoid you at that point.
posted by grouse at 4:11 AM on July 20, 2007
If I'm to understand this: You haven't even kissed her yet. Yet you call her your girlfriend and say you love her? That's way clingy. Many people would try to do anything to avoid you at that point.
posted by grouse at 4:11 AM on July 20, 2007
Best answer: She basically tells me that we're "more than just really good friends," and stuff, but for some reason she's just so darn confused about this thing.
She's not confused; you're not listening to her. There's a big step between "more than just really good friends" and actual love. She's clearly not there yet, but you don't want to acknowledge that and so you tell yourself she's just "confused."
You have two options: you can be patient, let her set the pace of the relationship and see where things go; or you can decide that it's not worth it at this point and break up. You don't have to make that decision on your own, either: talk to your girlfriend and actually listen to what she has to say.
posted by AV at 4:32 AM on July 20, 2007 [2 favorites]
She's not confused; you're not listening to her. There's a big step between "more than just really good friends" and actual love. She's clearly not there yet, but you don't want to acknowledge that and so you tell yourself she's just "confused."
You have two options: you can be patient, let her set the pace of the relationship and see where things go; or you can decide that it's not worth it at this point and break up. You don't have to make that decision on your own, either: talk to your girlfriend and actually listen to what she has to say.
posted by AV at 4:32 AM on July 20, 2007 [2 favorites]
Time. THe only way to sort this out is time. If you are that into her, keep doing what you are doing and wait her out. You cannot force her to find her feelings. Everyone has been saying runn for the hills, but I see it as just let her sort it out. She may dump you, but she may come around. Unless you have a better alternative, keep courting.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 4:33 AM on July 20, 2007
posted by JohnnyGunn at 4:33 AM on July 20, 2007
She knows her own feelings, she just doesn't want to tell you the truth because it's not what you want to hear. Just go for broke, go in for the kiss or whatever, and if it doesn't work out then move on immediately.
posted by Caper's Ghost at 4:55 AM on July 20, 2007
posted by Caper's Ghost at 4:55 AM on July 20, 2007
I've told her my feelings for her, that I love her very dearly, but she says she doesn't want to say it back if she's not sure of herself.
I said the exact same thing to a guy who said the exact same thing to me when I was younger. I didn't like him as much as he liked me. I liked him, sure, and he was a nice guy and all, but I really wasn't all that into him. But I was young and gutless and I didn't want to hurt his feelings. If only I had stopped being selfish and not kept dating him to be "polite", we might still be friends today. Live & learn, I guess.
posted by AlisonM at 5:18 AM on July 20, 2007
I said the exact same thing to a guy who said the exact same thing to me when I was younger. I didn't like him as much as he liked me. I liked him, sure, and he was a nice guy and all, but I really wasn't all that into him. But I was young and gutless and I didn't want to hurt his feelings. If only I had stopped being selfish and not kept dating him to be "polite", we might still be friends today. Live & learn, I guess.
posted by AlisonM at 5:18 AM on July 20, 2007
If she is either LDS or a particular type of committed Christian, she may very well want to delay kissing until a relationship is extremely serious.
OTOH my husband used to be a Mormon and all his Mormon girlfriends were really into kissing. So, whatever.
posted by konolia at 5:44 AM on July 20, 2007
OTOH my husband used to be a Mormon and all his Mormon girlfriends were really into kissing. So, whatever.
posted by konolia at 5:44 AM on July 20, 2007
She doesn't love you. People who love you don't want to hurt you. She is hurting you.
posted by banannafish at 5:51 AM on July 20, 2007
posted by banannafish at 5:51 AM on July 20, 2007
She knows what she wants. It ain't you. Bail!
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:58 AM on July 20, 2007
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:58 AM on July 20, 2007
Sorry kiddo, but she's not into you and she's unwilling to just tell you that.
I know everyone above me has said that, but I'm saying it as well -- because you need to know that everyone sees it this way.
You can try for the kiss, but it's not going to end well. You may be able to bully her into a short-term relationship, but ultimately it won't work out.
Bullying her into something, if I may say so, is uncool. Even if it's easy.
posted by aramaic at 6:01 AM on July 20, 2007 [1 favorite]
I know everyone above me has said that, but I'm saying it as well -- because you need to know that everyone sees it this way.
You can try for the kiss, but it's not going to end well. You may be able to bully her into a short-term relationship, but ultimately it won't work out.
Bullying her into something, if I may say so, is uncool. Even if it's easy.
posted by aramaic at 6:01 AM on July 20, 2007 [1 favorite]
From a female perspective, anaelith was right on.
posted by desjardins at 6:11 AM on July 20, 2007
posted by desjardins at 6:11 AM on July 20, 2007
It will be safe for her to know and express what she's feeling when she doesn't feel that doing so will totally break your heart and ruin your life.
"Okay, well if you don't mind then, I'm going to back off and do my own thing for a while then, until you figure it out. I don't want you to feel pressured, and I don't want to get my hopes up from being around you all the time."
This will be good for both of you.
I had to try so hard to convince myself I was attracted to or interested in my first few beaus. Because I was so grateful that ANYONE was interested. But as it became clearer that they had real feelings for me, I had to constantly throw on the brakes on my end of it to keep from being swallowed up by their love which I couldn't accept. I was lonely for physical and emotional comfort, but what they wanted seemed so all-or-nothing. I'm not proud of how I acted back then, but I was really having to make it all up as I went, and over the years I learned how to let someone down easily and/or immediately, or to articulate where I was at so that they knew the stakes. Hope your girl figures it out, but she probably won't-- not with you, and maybe not with the next guy either.
posted by hermitosis at 6:25 AM on July 20, 2007 [5 favorites]
"Okay, well if you don't mind then, I'm going to back off and do my own thing for a while then, until you figure it out. I don't want you to feel pressured, and I don't want to get my hopes up from being around you all the time."
This will be good for both of you.
I had to try so hard to convince myself I was attracted to or interested in my first few beaus. Because I was so grateful that ANYONE was interested. But as it became clearer that they had real feelings for me, I had to constantly throw on the brakes on my end of it to keep from being swallowed up by their love which I couldn't accept. I was lonely for physical and emotional comfort, but what they wanted seemed so all-or-nothing. I'm not proud of how I acted back then, but I was really having to make it all up as I went, and over the years I learned how to let someone down easily and/or immediately, or to articulate where I was at so that they knew the stakes. Hope your girl figures it out, but she probably won't-- not with you, and maybe not with the next guy either.
posted by hermitosis at 6:25 AM on July 20, 2007 [5 favorites]
@rentalkarma: effing brilliant link. I was about to do the same thing.
posted by jeffxl at 7:29 AM on July 20, 2007
posted by jeffxl at 7:29 AM on July 20, 2007
It will be safe for her to know and express what she's feeling when she doesn't feel that doing so will totally break your heart and ruin your life.
Well said.
This answer and anaelith's are really worth giving thought too.
It sounds like you might do well to spend some time on your own and allow her to think. Your hopes and needs and the pressures you're putting on her to love you back are part of what's obscuring her understanding what she needs and wants right now.
posted by Miko at 7:49 AM on July 20, 2007
Well said.
This answer and anaelith's are really worth giving thought too.
It sounds like you might do well to spend some time on your own and allow her to think. Your hopes and needs and the pressures you're putting on her to love you back are part of what's obscuring her understanding what she needs and wants right now.
posted by Miko at 7:49 AM on July 20, 2007
no, she IS. I mean, I can tellAssuming you know someone's feelings better than they are willing to tell you does not end well.
Accept what she is saying and move on.
posted by winna at 8:25 AM on July 20, 2007
Response by poster: You have two options: you can be patient, let her set the pace of the relationship and see where things go; or you can decide that it's not worth it at this point and break up. You don't have to make that decision on your own, either: talk to your girlfriend and actually listen to what she has to say.
That's what I've been doing just being patient; although I suppose that just talking frankly with her wouldn't be a bad idea; I mean, true, I really like her, but it's also true I don't want to hold out for something that won't be. I guess I'll just talk with her and see what's what.
Oh, and for further background (sorry that I haven't put it in earlier), yes we're both LDS (Mormon) and we've known each other for 3 years (although I just recently arrived home from a 2-year mission), and we don't get to see each other too often anyway, since she lives 2 hours away and we both had work.
She does call me her boyfriend (we're both each others' firsts, which explains a lot of this whole mess, probably, lol) (oh and I'm 21, she's 20), and we enjoy snuggling and all that stuff, and she says she feels she can trust me with things (like the whole "wall" thing); so that's cool. It's just that (hopefully understandably) I'd like to have things a bit more serious in the relationship. We've both kind of hinted to each other about things like marriage and kids, etc. But I certainly don't want to get into anything unless I know a girl's feelings.
So I guess I'll just talk with her face-to-face, honestly, and see what she says. Any other comments/suggestions?
posted by macsigler at 8:29 AM on July 20, 2007
That's what I've been doing just being patient; although I suppose that just talking frankly with her wouldn't be a bad idea; I mean, true, I really like her, but it's also true I don't want to hold out for something that won't be. I guess I'll just talk with her and see what's what.
Oh, and for further background (sorry that I haven't put it in earlier), yes we're both LDS (Mormon) and we've known each other for 3 years (although I just recently arrived home from a 2-year mission), and we don't get to see each other too often anyway, since she lives 2 hours away and we both had work.
She does call me her boyfriend (we're both each others' firsts, which explains a lot of this whole mess, probably, lol) (oh and I'm 21, she's 20), and we enjoy snuggling and all that stuff, and she says she feels she can trust me with things (like the whole "wall" thing); so that's cool. It's just that (hopefully understandably) I'd like to have things a bit more serious in the relationship. We've both kind of hinted to each other about things like marriage and kids, etc. But I certainly don't want to get into anything unless I know a girl's feelings.
So I guess I'll just talk with her face-to-face, honestly, and see what she says. Any other comments/suggestions?
posted by macsigler at 8:29 AM on July 20, 2007
Way back when I was in undergrad, I met this great girl. We became best friends, and though I was really attracted to her, I kept that to myself. After some time, she started acting strange and irritable around me. I asked her what was up, and she told me, "I'm really attracted to you, and I think I want to be more than just friends."
My heart lept. But then she told me, "I was sexually abused as a child, and I have a really hard time getting close to people. If I kiss a guy that I really like, I panic. But if I can sort myself out, I really think we'll be great together. I can even see us getting married and having kids."
Feeling unsure what to do, and also a little like the most grown-up guy in the world, I said, "Hey, I understand. Let's take it really, really slowly. I promise not to ever push you. I'll be there for you, and let's see what happens."
We agreed to be exclusive, and we were for two years. I didn't date or even think about anyone else. I spent most days with her. I bought her gifts. I didn't touch her. Very occasionally, we'd hold hands, and it almost felt like an orgasm.
Then one day, after two years of this, she dumped me. I asked her why she was doing this, and she avoided the question. I asked her again, and she gave me the "it's not you, it's me" line. I demanded to know what was really happening. She looked really awkward and then quietly said, "I'm just not attracted to you."
A couple of weeks later, she was dating another guy. Now she's married with and has a couple of kids.
This was one of the most rotten periods of my life. Everyone I knew told me I was being a chump. Several people suggested that the sexual abuse story was a lie. I'm not sure I buy that, but I did wind up feeling manipulated by both her and (self-manipulated) by me. It's great to be a non-pushy, kind, understanding guy, but not to the point of denying your own needs.
I also think it's very likely she that she wasn't consciously manipulating me (though many would call me a fool for thinking that). I was the perfect friend for her, and I think -- though she wasn't the least bit attracted to me -- she was hoping she'd become attracted to me. But that just didn't happen. But since I was willing to hang on and hang on, she was willing to keep hoping it would happen.
Obviously, my story might not be your story, and I hope for your sake that it's not. I feel for you. Good luck!
posted by grumblebee at 8:31 AM on July 20, 2007 [3 favorites]
My heart lept. But then she told me, "I was sexually abused as a child, and I have a really hard time getting close to people. If I kiss a guy that I really like, I panic. But if I can sort myself out, I really think we'll be great together. I can even see us getting married and having kids."
Feeling unsure what to do, and also a little like the most grown-up guy in the world, I said, "Hey, I understand. Let's take it really, really slowly. I promise not to ever push you. I'll be there for you, and let's see what happens."
We agreed to be exclusive, and we were for two years. I didn't date or even think about anyone else. I spent most days with her. I bought her gifts. I didn't touch her. Very occasionally, we'd hold hands, and it almost felt like an orgasm.
Then one day, after two years of this, she dumped me. I asked her why she was doing this, and she avoided the question. I asked her again, and she gave me the "it's not you, it's me" line. I demanded to know what was really happening. She looked really awkward and then quietly said, "I'm just not attracted to you."
A couple of weeks later, she was dating another guy. Now she's married with and has a couple of kids.
This was one of the most rotten periods of my life. Everyone I knew told me I was being a chump. Several people suggested that the sexual abuse story was a lie. I'm not sure I buy that, but I did wind up feeling manipulated by both her and (self-manipulated) by me. It's great to be a non-pushy, kind, understanding guy, but not to the point of denying your own needs.
I also think it's very likely she that she wasn't consciously manipulating me (though many would call me a fool for thinking that). I was the perfect friend for her, and I think -- though she wasn't the least bit attracted to me -- she was hoping she'd become attracted to me. But that just didn't happen. But since I was willing to hang on and hang on, she was willing to keep hoping it would happen.
Obviously, my story might not be your story, and I hope for your sake that it's not. I feel for you. Good luck!
posted by grumblebee at 8:31 AM on July 20, 2007 [3 favorites]
I should add that I'm decidedly NOT one of those people who feels like "if the spark isn't there at first, it never will be." I was attracted to my wife way before she was attracted to me, and we were friends for a year before we even started dating.
But looking back, I can see that my relationship with her -- unlike my relationship with the girl I wrote about, above -- always had foreword momentum. We got closer and closer and closer, and we were clearly moving towards something (BOTH of us were). Whereas with that first girl and me were caught in a stasis in which I followed her around like a lapdog and she waited around, hoping the gods would bless her with feelings for me.
posted by grumblebee at 8:34 AM on July 20, 2007 [2 favorites]
But looking back, I can see that my relationship with her -- unlike my relationship with the girl I wrote about, above -- always had foreword momentum. We got closer and closer and closer, and we were clearly moving towards something (BOTH of us were). Whereas with that first girl and me were caught in a stasis in which I followed her around like a lapdog and she waited around, hoping the gods would bless her with feelings for me.
posted by grumblebee at 8:34 AM on July 20, 2007 [2 favorites]
Please don't marry (or promise to marry) anyone who doesn't want to kiss you. Intimacy and sexuality are no minor part of God's gift to married couples, but people aren't imbued with it via lightning-strike the second they take their vows; the person you are dealing with now is the person you would be going home with that night.
She is not prepared to commit her body or her feelings to you. The whole point of first boyfriends and girlfriends is to begin testing your ability to successfully mingle your life with another's. She is not doing this, or allowing you to do it. Having gotten your "first" over with, you are now blessed with a basis for comparison that will hopefully draw you toward more responsive, considerate candidates.
People here may sound harsh, and most people's perception of Mormons (and Mormon relationships) is very inflexible. But really, you are an adult and deserve the comforts of an adult relationship, and that means being with someone honest who is demonstrably attracted to you within a mutually approved-of set of boundaries. That's not what you have right now, and personally I don't think this girl is capable of (or interested in) giving it to you.
posted by hermitosis at 8:45 AM on July 20, 2007
She is not prepared to commit her body or her feelings to you. The whole point of first boyfriends and girlfriends is to begin testing your ability to successfully mingle your life with another's. She is not doing this, or allowing you to do it. Having gotten your "first" over with, you are now blessed with a basis for comparison that will hopefully draw you toward more responsive, considerate candidates.
People here may sound harsh, and most people's perception of Mormons (and Mormon relationships) is very inflexible. But really, you are an adult and deserve the comforts of an adult relationship, and that means being with someone honest who is demonstrably attracted to you within a mutually approved-of set of boundaries. That's not what you have right now, and personally I don't think this girl is capable of (or interested in) giving it to you.
posted by hermitosis at 8:45 AM on July 20, 2007
she wasn't consciously manipulating me
I bet that's true. Usually in these types of situations people aren't being consciously manipulated by th other. The situations result from inexperience and a difficulty parsing new emotions. I wouldn't approach it with the idea that you're being 'played,' just that she's at an earlier stage of relationship and intimacy development than you are, as in Grumblebee's example.
What's hard about that is that the other person hasn't got the emotional vocabulary yet to let you go. It puts you, the other person, in the role of deciding to either patiently wait or to break up and move on, both of which are hard and present risks.
I don't know - you might try floating some of these ideas to her and saying "here's what I think might be going on with us - am I wrong? Where? Is there any reason I should keep pursuing this?"
Even then you might not get useful answers, since she's still figuring out how to get them.
posted by Miko at 8:52 AM on July 20, 2007
I bet that's true. Usually in these types of situations people aren't being consciously manipulated by th other. The situations result from inexperience and a difficulty parsing new emotions. I wouldn't approach it with the idea that you're being 'played,' just that she's at an earlier stage of relationship and intimacy development than you are, as in Grumblebee's example.
What's hard about that is that the other person hasn't got the emotional vocabulary yet to let you go. It puts you, the other person, in the role of deciding to either patiently wait or to break up and move on, both of which are hard and present risks.
I don't know - you might try floating some of these ideas to her and saying "here's what I think might be going on with us - am I wrong? Where? Is there any reason I should keep pursuing this?"
Even then you might not get useful answers, since she's still figuring out how to get them.
posted by Miko at 8:52 AM on July 20, 2007
So I guess I'll just talk with her face-to-face, honestly, and see what she says.
Hey, good for you. As long as you're honest and take hermitosis's advice about making sure she feels she can be honest with you, you'll be fine. You might not get the outcome you're hoping for, but no matter what you'll both benefit from the conversation.
Let us know how it goes.
posted by AV at 9:01 AM on July 20, 2007
Hey, good for you. As long as you're honest and take hermitosis's advice about making sure she feels she can be honest with you, you'll be fine. You might not get the outcome you're hoping for, but no matter what you'll both benefit from the conversation.
Let us know how it goes.
posted by AV at 9:01 AM on July 20, 2007
Ignore rentalkarma's link, or at least don't tell any woman you've ever read it. It contains such classy gems as:
A note for guys: if your friends girl offers you a piece you should hit that shit, because he shouldn't be laying up with no ho
posted by desjardins at 10:20 AM on July 20, 2007 [1 favorite]
A note for guys: if your friends girl offers you a piece you should hit that shit, because he shouldn't be laying up with no ho
posted by desjardins at 10:20 AM on July 20, 2007 [1 favorite]
Well, this is just a random idea, will kissing her to find out what she really thinks be such a bad idea? :P
She has already told you that she's not interested in kissing until she's "practically engaged", which I would take to mean in love, and she's not sure she's in love with you. She will lose respect for you if you kiss her against her wishes. Do not force yourself on this girl under the guise of "helping her find out what she thinks" simply because you're feeling randy. This is not the movies, where people who hate each other kiss passionately and are suddenly madly in love. Real people are more complicated than that.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 10:45 AM on July 20, 2007 [2 favorites]
She has already told you that she's not interested in kissing until she's "practically engaged", which I would take to mean in love, and she's not sure she's in love with you. She will lose respect for you if you kiss her against her wishes. Do not force yourself on this girl under the guise of "helping her find out what she thinks" simply because you're feeling randy. This is not the movies, where people who hate each other kiss passionately and are suddenly madly in love. Real people are more complicated than that.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 10:45 AM on July 20, 2007 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Given that you are both LDS and pretty young, I don't think the lack of intimacy is necessarily a red flag, but you do need to talk to her and be sure you're on the same page (or "ladder" if you prefer). If you're headed in the same direction just give it time so she can sort out her personal hurdles. If she's really that awesome you'll be glad you gave her the time and space she needs to figure things out.
Until you've had the talk and you're certain she's into you, you might want to guard your heart a little though.
posted by MiffyCLB at 10:54 AM on July 20, 2007
Until you've had the talk and you're certain she's into you, you might want to guard your heart a little though.
posted by MiffyCLB at 10:54 AM on July 20, 2007
Were this a normal relationship out here in the secular world, I'd say to give her some space, Cap'n Clingy ("I love you" prior to first kiss? Jesus, that's a load to lay on someone, and would have had a normal girl bail in a second).
And upon considering, that's exactly the sort of advice I am going to give you— you're acting like a naive puppy, and that's kinda freaking her out (well, freaking both of you out, if I had to guess), but you guys haven't been given the relationship compasses to right your course. This isn't how 20-year-olds function, and you're both behind the curve and getting into a place where you'll probably have a lot of social pressure to codify your relationship further. And unless both of you take a break now and think about what you want, you're gonna be ten years down the line trying to figure out why she's still "confused" about her feelings.
posted by klangklangston at 11:13 AM on July 20, 2007
And upon considering, that's exactly the sort of advice I am going to give you— you're acting like a naive puppy, and that's kinda freaking her out (well, freaking both of you out, if I had to guess), but you guys haven't been given the relationship compasses to right your course. This isn't how 20-year-olds function, and you're both behind the curve and getting into a place where you'll probably have a lot of social pressure to codify your relationship further. And unless both of you take a break now and think about what you want, you're gonna be ten years down the line trying to figure out why she's still "confused" about her feelings.
posted by klangklangston at 11:13 AM on July 20, 2007
grumblebee: what a story. Two years. My goodness. It could never be said of you that you aren't a gentleman.
grumblebee's last post is incredibly wise. It should be distributed to young people as some sort of hand-out or government pamphlet.
We got closer and closer and closer, and we were clearly moving towards something (BOTH of us were). Whereas with that first girl and me were caught in a stasis
Indeed. Indeed.
Also, to the original poster, even though you seem to be coming at this from a very naive and inexperienced viewpoint, understandable for a first girlfriend, that doesn't make the pain you are suffering any less real.
I do hope the best for you. Just understand what is best for you is unlikely to be a confused, withdrawn, noncommittal girl. Take ownership of your own value as a person. Find a girl who adores you.
In truth, that is my advice to everyone, of every age, of every sex, and every religious persuasion.
Find someone who adores you.
posted by Ynoxas at 12:29 PM on July 20, 2007
grumblebee's last post is incredibly wise. It should be distributed to young people as some sort of hand-out or government pamphlet.
We got closer and closer and closer, and we were clearly moving towards something (BOTH of us were). Whereas with that first girl and me were caught in a stasis
Indeed. Indeed.
Also, to the original poster, even though you seem to be coming at this from a very naive and inexperienced viewpoint, understandable for a first girlfriend, that doesn't make the pain you are suffering any less real.
I do hope the best for you. Just understand what is best for you is unlikely to be a confused, withdrawn, noncommittal girl. Take ownership of your own value as a person. Find a girl who adores you.
In truth, that is my advice to everyone, of every age, of every sex, and every religious persuasion.
Find someone who adores you.
posted by Ynoxas at 12:29 PM on July 20, 2007
Do not try to kiss her, it will only end in tears, the development of a complex, and years of therapy. If you want to make her like you, start spending your time on another female.
posted by ludwig_van at 12:30 PM on July 20, 2007
posted by ludwig_van at 12:30 PM on July 20, 2007
Is there anything you can do (aside from moving on, which is what most people in this thread and your other friends have told you)? Yes. The best thing you can do is to give her some distance. If you can, even mingle with some other friends for awhile. This is not to hurt her but so that she will realize if she misses you. She is evaluating you and it's true what anaelith says above, that something may just be missing. On the other hand, attractiveness is subjective and almost always relative. What she needs to figure out is if that thing that's missing is worth not having you. Quite a lot of couples started off with one partner being unsure and then realizing what an amazing thing they have in front of them. I do not agree with the, "if she doesn't know now, she'll never know" idea. I also don't think anyone should judge her too quickly just because she doesn't want to kiss the poster yet or say "i love you." She is cautious. Essentially, there's no need or reason for her to do anything if you're giving her everything. You have value too and you need to let her see that.
posted by pinksoftsoap at 12:37 PM on July 20, 2007
posted by pinksoftsoap at 12:37 PM on July 20, 2007
It's great to be a non-pushy, kind, understanding guy, but not to the point of denying your own needs.
There's wisdom here. When I met my now-wife, we dated for a short while, and our relationship was casual but fantastic. I decided I wanted to have a long-term relationship with her. Trouble is, she couldn't quite figure out if she wanted the same.
So, rather than be wishy-washy about it, I told her in no uncertain terms that I was ready to commit to a more serious relationship, but also that I wasn't willing to stick around if she wasn't willing to do the same. She had to think about it for an evening, but then came back and said she was ready to be serious. We ended up married, and have been together happily for years.
However, we have been dealing with issues of respect as of late; I'd gotten the impression that she had lost respect for me and called her on it. Turns out that she had, mainly because after our children were born I softened from a no-nonsense guy into a somewhat wishy-washy guy, and she missed the way I used to be. So now I'm ramping that part of my personality back up, and things seem to be improving again (time will tell, of course.)
This experience mirrors the experiences I've had with other women, with bosses and coworkers, with friends and family, and with strangers. People respect you if you're clear about what your needs are and unwilling to settle for less, and if people don't respect you, they won't find you attractive and desireable (at least not for long) unless they're insecure.
That doesn't mean "be a dick"; it just means stand up for yourself. In this case, for you, that means letting her know that you understand her position and care about her, but are unwilling to sacrifice a good portion of your life, love and attention on someone who can't figure out how to return the favor. Then walk away.
posted by davejay at 12:59 PM on July 20, 2007 [2 favorites]
There's wisdom here. When I met my now-wife, we dated for a short while, and our relationship was casual but fantastic. I decided I wanted to have a long-term relationship with her. Trouble is, she couldn't quite figure out if she wanted the same.
So, rather than be wishy-washy about it, I told her in no uncertain terms that I was ready to commit to a more serious relationship, but also that I wasn't willing to stick around if she wasn't willing to do the same. She had to think about it for an evening, but then came back and said she was ready to be serious. We ended up married, and have been together happily for years.
However, we have been dealing with issues of respect as of late; I'd gotten the impression that she had lost respect for me and called her on it. Turns out that she had, mainly because after our children were born I softened from a no-nonsense guy into a somewhat wishy-washy guy, and she missed the way I used to be. So now I'm ramping that part of my personality back up, and things seem to be improving again (time will tell, of course.)
This experience mirrors the experiences I've had with other women, with bosses and coworkers, with friends and family, and with strangers. People respect you if you're clear about what your needs are and unwilling to settle for less, and if people don't respect you, they won't find you attractive and desireable (at least not for long) unless they're insecure.
That doesn't mean "be a dick"; it just means stand up for yourself. In this case, for you, that means letting her know that you understand her position and care about her, but are unwilling to sacrifice a good portion of your life, love and attention on someone who can't figure out how to return the favor. Then walk away.
posted by davejay at 12:59 PM on July 20, 2007 [2 favorites]
When I was acting exactly like your girlfriend, my boyfriend got the balls to dump me. At first, I was happy (I didn't think I was all that into him), but after two months I was so desperate to be with him I packed all my things, moved to his town two hours away, and begged for his forgiveness on the doorstep. She needs a wake up call. You probably don't even have to actually break up with her, but just hint that it's a possibility.
Oh, and I used to tell my guy "i'm just not that into kissing." It was a lie. I was a kissing fool after he took me back.
posted by Ugh at 3:57 PM on July 20, 2007
Oh, and I used to tell my guy "i'm just not that into kissing." It was a lie. I was a kissing fool after he took me back.
posted by Ugh at 3:57 PM on July 20, 2007
Response by poster: OK so basically the best advice I'm hearing is this:
Talk with her frankly but since I'm looking for a serious relationship, don't settle for less, and if she's ready, cool, if not, just let her be cool and think about it and what happens happens and I somehow end up being a happy college boy in the end, eventually. Right?
Feel free to clue me in further if I need to, and I'll try to let you all know what happens.
posted by macsigler at 6:08 PM on July 20, 2007
Talk with her frankly but since I'm looking for a serious relationship, don't settle for less, and if she's ready, cool, if not, just let her be cool and think about it and what happens happens and I somehow end up being a happy college boy in the end, eventually. Right?
Feel free to clue me in further if I need to, and I'll try to let you all know what happens.
posted by macsigler at 6:08 PM on July 20, 2007
Macsigler, my partner and I are a couple of months away from our 21st anniversary, and "talk frankly and honestly" is still an important thing to do. So is "listen to what she has to say". This is different from latching on to only those parts that match what you want her to say and disregarding the rest because you "know" what she is really thinking.
I know that cultural pressure combined with the strength of your feelings can make a 'serious relationship' seem like something you need right this second, but you can't get there by forcing the issue in a relationship where the other person doesn't feel the same way you do.
posted by foobario at 8:34 PM on July 20, 2007
I know that cultural pressure combined with the strength of your feelings can make a 'serious relationship' seem like something you need right this second, but you can't get there by forcing the issue in a relationship where the other person doesn't feel the same way you do.
posted by foobario at 8:34 PM on July 20, 2007
Response by poster: Okay, well, I think I figured out the issue.
We talked it over, and it seems that she wants to wait until we go off to college and see if our relationship is "still the same" after a while there, before we get into anything real "serious." I don't really get it, but at least I know why she's been acting the way she is. And I support her decision.
To be honest, after we talked, our relationship has been stronger than it ever has been before. So I guess I was just trying to push things a little too fast, when all I needed to do was ask what she was feeling and be patient. :P
Well I still don't know how this whole thing will pan out in the end (I'm still optimistic), but at least I know why she's doing what she does. So I guess the question is basically "answered." Thanks for all the encouragement to not wuss out or be a brainless zombie, lol. :P
posted by macsigler at 10:38 AM on July 23, 2007
We talked it over, and it seems that she wants to wait until we go off to college and see if our relationship is "still the same" after a while there, before we get into anything real "serious." I don't really get it, but at least I know why she's been acting the way she is. And I support her decision.
To be honest, after we talked, our relationship has been stronger than it ever has been before. So I guess I was just trying to push things a little too fast, when all I needed to do was ask what she was feeling and be patient. :P
Well I still don't know how this whole thing will pan out in the end (I'm still optimistic), but at least I know why she's doing what she does. So I guess the question is basically "answered." Thanks for all the encouragement to not wuss out or be a brainless zombie, lol. :P
posted by macsigler at 10:38 AM on July 23, 2007
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posted by Crotalus at 11:01 PM on July 19, 2007 [3 favorites]