Whose wall is it anyway?
July 9, 2007 9:42 PM Subscribe
I live on a street where the houses are not on the same ground level and so there are retaining walls between the properties. The house on my uphill side was built in the 1920’s and my house was built on a vacant lot between two houses from that era in 1961. Thanks to a brochure of the development in the 20’s, I have a picture of these two neighboring houses when my lot was vacant. The picture clearly shows the walls, or in actuality, the walls that are visible above ground level. These walls were built on top of the real retaining walls and were wood frame inside with chicken wire and plaster over the outside.
They were fine when I bought my house in 1971. ~10 years later, ~ 1982, the house on the upper side of my property was bought and the new owners did some changes to the front yard. ~ 6’ from the wall is the their driveway, and on the other side of it they built a swimming pool. Some of the dirt from the hole for the pool was piled on this side of the driveway and up against the faux plaster (non-retaining) wall to the height of ~2/3 of it’s height. Then trees, lemon and magnolia, were planted in this dirt and grass over the top. Also a 6’chain link fence was erected on their side of the wall. Within a few years the faux wall started shifting over into my property. From my side this means you can see the real retaining wall up from the ground about 2’ - 4’ and then you see the plaster from the faux wall separating from it. It is now up to ~ 6” and I think the only thing holding it up is the chicken wire, which is now ~75 years old! Pieces of rotted wood from the frame of the faux wall have been falling into my yard along with pieces of tarpaper and plaster. I mentioned what was going on to my neighbor years ago and he offered to split the cost of fixing this wall. I have just been living with it not wanted to make an enemy by arguing but now I am considering selling in the next couple of years. I don’t want to leave this problem to new owners and also I know it will diminish my selling price if it’s not fixed. Also, I have pictures of guys removing the large roots of a tree that was planted there. But there are still the lemon tree, the magnolia tree, (both ~ 20’ tall) and of course the dirt and roots pushing against this old faux wall.
Now that you know the background, my problem is this. I understand how possibly the wall was originally owned by whoever owned the 2 properties. However, who knows how much longer this wall could have properly stood if not misused by my neighbor. If it gives, it is my property and lives that will be endangered. Also, if it had been left alone, the fence would not need to be removed, the dirt and probably the trees would not need to be removed, and the faux wall would be accessible to demolition of the old and construction of the new much, much easier. I’m also not sure that it isn’t really his wall since his house was the one that was constructed at the time of the wall construction and was necessary for that construction. Ie - the picture from the 1920’s.
I will appreciate any advice especially from someone who knows the legalities of property lines.
They were fine when I bought my house in 1971. ~10 years later, ~ 1982, the house on the upper side of my property was bought and the new owners did some changes to the front yard. ~ 6’ from the wall is the their driveway, and on the other side of it they built a swimming pool. Some of the dirt from the hole for the pool was piled on this side of the driveway and up against the faux plaster (non-retaining) wall to the height of ~2/3 of it’s height. Then trees, lemon and magnolia, were planted in this dirt and grass over the top. Also a 6’chain link fence was erected on their side of the wall. Within a few years the faux wall started shifting over into my property. From my side this means you can see the real retaining wall up from the ground about 2’ - 4’ and then you see the plaster from the faux wall separating from it. It is now up to ~ 6” and I think the only thing holding it up is the chicken wire, which is now ~75 years old! Pieces of rotted wood from the frame of the faux wall have been falling into my yard along with pieces of tarpaper and plaster. I mentioned what was going on to my neighbor years ago and he offered to split the cost of fixing this wall. I have just been living with it not wanted to make an enemy by arguing but now I am considering selling in the next couple of years. I don’t want to leave this problem to new owners and also I know it will diminish my selling price if it’s not fixed. Also, I have pictures of guys removing the large roots of a tree that was planted there. But there are still the lemon tree, the magnolia tree, (both ~ 20’ tall) and of course the dirt and roots pushing against this old faux wall.
Now that you know the background, my problem is this. I understand how possibly the wall was originally owned by whoever owned the 2 properties. However, who knows how much longer this wall could have properly stood if not misused by my neighbor. If it gives, it is my property and lives that will be endangered. Also, if it had been left alone, the fence would not need to be removed, the dirt and probably the trees would not need to be removed, and the faux wall would be accessible to demolition of the old and construction of the new much, much easier. I’m also not sure that it isn’t really his wall since his house was the one that was constructed at the time of the wall construction and was necessary for that construction. Ie - the picture from the 1920’s.
I will appreciate any advice especially from someone who knows the legalities of property lines.
IANAL. The legalities of this are going to be entirely governed by local law. You definitely need the advice of an attorney in this matter, and if the property hasn't been surveyed in years, it may be necessary to survey to determine ownership of the wall. And you probably need the advice and recommendations of a structural engineer.
Without any intention of a pun, he has a lot to lose if this wall fails, as you do. Potentially, if the foundation of his house is within 15 feet or so of the wall, as it might be from your description, a catastrophic failure, precipitated by something as mundane as a major rain event, could damage his home, for different reasons than it would damage yours. But his home could still be damaged, and he could be liable for damages on your home, if the failure occurred because of neglect of maintenance on his part.
Or, not, depending on your local laws and regulations regarding such constructions. Seriously, take photos, get a copy of the land's plat as filed with your property office, and find an experienced attorney to explain the legalities of the situation to you, as your local jurisdiction sees them. Go from there.
posted by paulsc at 10:03 PM on July 9, 2007
Without any intention of a pun, he has a lot to lose if this wall fails, as you do. Potentially, if the foundation of his house is within 15 feet or so of the wall, as it might be from your description, a catastrophic failure, precipitated by something as mundane as a major rain event, could damage his home, for different reasons than it would damage yours. But his home could still be damaged, and he could be liable for damages on your home, if the failure occurred because of neglect of maintenance on his part.
Or, not, depending on your local laws and regulations regarding such constructions. Seriously, take photos, get a copy of the land's plat as filed with your property office, and find an experienced attorney to explain the legalities of the situation to you, as your local jurisdiction sees them. Go from there.
posted by paulsc at 10:03 PM on July 9, 2007
Your neighbor's offer to pay for half the cost of repair sounds reasonable. Why did you reject it? Also, did you object at all to their building the driveway next to the wall, to their piling dirt up against it, to their planting trees near it? These things seem like foreseeable stressors to the integrity of the wall, and if you accepted them without complaint, it's a bit disingenuous now to insist they pay 100% of the repairs.
However, it is what it is, and I see your point re: resale value. Have you had the property line staked out by a surveyor? It's worth knowing who owns this wall, or if ownership is in fact shared, at least in terms of being able to answer potential buyers' questions. If it's 100% his, you may have more leverage in negotiating shared repair costs. If it's been a de facto border all this time, though, 50/50 doesn't seem like a horrible offer.
You'll pay 600-700 for a survey, and at least that much for an attorney. Get a quote on repair of the wall and see how the math works out.
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 6:50 AM on July 10, 2007
However, it is what it is, and I see your point re: resale value. Have you had the property line staked out by a surveyor? It's worth knowing who owns this wall, or if ownership is in fact shared, at least in terms of being able to answer potential buyers' questions. If it's 100% his, you may have more leverage in negotiating shared repair costs. If it's been a de facto border all this time, though, 50/50 doesn't seem like a horrible offer.
You'll pay 600-700 for a survey, and at least that much for an attorney. Get a quote on repair of the wall and see how the math works out.
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 6:50 AM on July 10, 2007
Do you have pictures you can post? I suspect there's more going on than your description relates. The real issue is the loads that the pool, driveway and additional overburden from the excavated soils are placing on the actual retaining wall. There's a real chance that your neighbor's driveway, pool and lemon trees will end up in your living room, since the retaining wall was built without taking those things into consideration. You should discuss hiring a professional engineer with your neighbor to ensure that this doesn't happen.
As for the stucco wall, you can easily make the case that your neighbor's actions caused the wall to shift. You might want to point this out in the negotiations.
posted by electroboy at 7:26 AM on July 10, 2007
As for the stucco wall, you can easily make the case that your neighbor's actions caused the wall to shift. You might want to point this out in the negotiations.
posted by electroboy at 7:26 AM on July 10, 2007
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Best guess, is they didn't pull a permit.
posted by iamabot at 9:52 PM on July 9, 2007