Which path do I take: Norway, an MBA, or nothing at all?
May 22, 2007 11:43 AM Subscribe
I've been offered a position in Norway. I am happily and gainfully employed in Maine. I am also considering an MBA. Does anyone have advice with regards to Norway, choosing the path less traveled, and life stability?
I'm currently a software engineer in Maine and I like the small company I work for. There are about 50 employees and next to no internal politics involved. The pay isn't the highest but it is plenty for the area and my (single) lifestyle. The perks include extreme flex time (I essentially work when I choose), free food, company vehicles when needed, summertime BBQs, and free baseball tickets. I love the area as well.
During a recent trip to Oslo, Norway I visited a friend's work and was offered a position with his employer. They are a company of roughly 200 and seemed to be in growth mode. The work would be very interesting (more so than my current job) and there are perks such as free cellphone, home internet, and three free flights back to the USA per year.
However, the Norwegian firm has offered me a salary that is only ~20% higher than my current salary despite the fact that Oslo is the "most expensive city in the world". Using standard cost-of-living index numbers I have concluded that in order to have an equivalent standard of living in Oslo my salary would have to be more like ~60% higher or more.
That being said, my friend in Norway pays the same in rent that I do in Portland, Maine, so I know that using cost-of-living indexes that combine everything into one number aren't that great for this sort of comparison.
As it stands now, I see the Oslo offer as a very interesting and appealing path but I also do not want to set myself back too many years with regards to retirement savings and the like. My current job is extremely stable and somewhat rewarding. I like Maine and can see myself staying here for the long term (if not now, then down the road).
I'm 29, single, and I just finished a masters at McGill University in Montreal. I initially planned on looking into an MBA (or some other useful/pertinent degree) that my company would pay for. The more time I spend thinking about the MBA the more I think it might be unnecessary and a waste of time, but I also realize that my mind and body work much better with short-term goals such as graduate degrees than it does with long-term goals like retirement. That being said, I don't think the idea of doing an MBA just to remain motivated is the worst thought in the world.
Other dreams of mine include buying a sailboat, considering rental property (as an investment), and/or building my first home. These things all take money, of course, and I'm sadly an obsessive retirement saver and I am having problems "living life in the now".
Does anybody have thoughts, insights, or other information? Specifically, is anyone familiar with the tax implications of working as an ex-pat in Norway? I've searched the web to no end and found little useful information. I've also been told that learning Norwegian is fairly easy if you immerse yourself. The company I would be working for is not concerned with the fact that I do not currently know any Norwegian and they assure me it is easy to pick up.
I'm currently a software engineer in Maine and I like the small company I work for. There are about 50 employees and next to no internal politics involved. The pay isn't the highest but it is plenty for the area and my (single) lifestyle. The perks include extreme flex time (I essentially work when I choose), free food, company vehicles when needed, summertime BBQs, and free baseball tickets. I love the area as well.
During a recent trip to Oslo, Norway I visited a friend's work and was offered a position with his employer. They are a company of roughly 200 and seemed to be in growth mode. The work would be very interesting (more so than my current job) and there are perks such as free cellphone, home internet, and three free flights back to the USA per year.
However, the Norwegian firm has offered me a salary that is only ~20% higher than my current salary despite the fact that Oslo is the "most expensive city in the world". Using standard cost-of-living index numbers I have concluded that in order to have an equivalent standard of living in Oslo my salary would have to be more like ~60% higher or more.
That being said, my friend in Norway pays the same in rent that I do in Portland, Maine, so I know that using cost-of-living indexes that combine everything into one number aren't that great for this sort of comparison.
As it stands now, I see the Oslo offer as a very interesting and appealing path but I also do not want to set myself back too many years with regards to retirement savings and the like. My current job is extremely stable and somewhat rewarding. I like Maine and can see myself staying here for the long term (if not now, then down the road).
I'm 29, single, and I just finished a masters at McGill University in Montreal. I initially planned on looking into an MBA (or some other useful/pertinent degree) that my company would pay for. The more time I spend thinking about the MBA the more I think it might be unnecessary and a waste of time, but I also realize that my mind and body work much better with short-term goals such as graduate degrees than it does with long-term goals like retirement. That being said, I don't think the idea of doing an MBA just to remain motivated is the worst thought in the world.
Other dreams of mine include buying a sailboat, considering rental property (as an investment), and/or building my first home. These things all take money, of course, and I'm sadly an obsessive retirement saver and I am having problems "living life in the now".
Does anybody have thoughts, insights, or other information? Specifically, is anyone familiar with the tax implications of working as an ex-pat in Norway? I've searched the web to no end and found little useful information. I've also been told that learning Norwegian is fairly easy if you immerse yourself. The company I would be working for is not concerned with the fact that I do not currently know any Norwegian and they assure me it is easy to pick up.
Norway is very expensive and the summer doesn't last too long. That said, I have lots of family there and go often and really recommend it.
The thing you will have to do is rein in your costs if you really expect to be able to make a go of it. A Big Mac is $10, for example. Everyone I know who lives there has given up drinking except what they get from Sweden and spend their money on things that will occupy them at home, like cable tv.
posted by parmanparman at 12:06 PM on May 22, 2007
The thing you will have to do is rein in your costs if you really expect to be able to make a go of it. A Big Mac is $10, for example. Everyone I know who lives there has given up drinking except what they get from Sweden and spend their money on things that will occupy them at home, like cable tv.
posted by parmanparman at 12:06 PM on May 22, 2007
Oh man... just do it! My family lived in Oslo for a year when I was young. We bought fresh fish and shrimp at the docks every day, traveled all over the country, and generally lived in a way that I have yet to recapture. The fjords, man, the fjords! Norwegian culture is very comfortable with nudity and sexuality and is generally very open. You'll learn a lot.
posted by Derive the Hamiltonian of... at 12:12 PM on May 22, 2007
posted by Derive the Hamiltonian of... at 12:12 PM on May 22, 2007
I've lived in Maine, I have strong ties to Maine. But Jesus Christ! You've got a chance to go to an exciting new country and experience life in a way that you never have before. Give yourself two years. This doesn't have to be permanent. If you like it, maybe it can be. But give yourself two years of it, and if even if you don't enjoy it (which won't be the case), you're going to be a different person. You've got plenty of time to pick up where you left off.
Maine ain't goin' anywhere, brothuh!
posted by Mayor Curley at 12:12 PM on May 22, 2007
Maine ain't goin' anywhere, brothuh!
posted by Mayor Curley at 12:12 PM on May 22, 2007
I have no personal experience with Norway, but Seth Glickenhaus holds the country in high esteem. He's a
93 year old money manager who heads a billion dollar firm, and is noted for being a vocal anti-Bush capitalist.
From a 2003 article in Barron's:
There is only one great country: Norway. I didn't come from Norway, but I lived there. It is monolithic. There are 3.5 million people. It is the most constructive country in the world. They're for peace and they were just named as part of the enemy by al Qaeda. If you want a wonderful country, it's Norway. In my next incarnation, I hope to be born a Norwegian.
posted by kimdog at 12:27 PM on May 22, 2007
93 year old money manager who heads a billion dollar firm, and is noted for being a vocal anti-Bush capitalist.
From a 2003 article in Barron's:
There is only one great country: Norway. I didn't come from Norway, but I lived there. It is monolithic. There are 3.5 million people. It is the most constructive country in the world. They're for peace and they were just named as part of the enemy by al Qaeda. If you want a wonderful country, it's Norway. In my next incarnation, I hope to be born a Norwegian.
posted by kimdog at 12:27 PM on May 22, 2007
What do you have to loose by choosing Norway? If it's more than you could potentially gain, stay where you are and get your MBA.
Choosing to live in Norway for a few years would mean a slew of new experiences, and if you ended up living there for a long time you would benefit from a life of free (or at least very cheap) health-care (apart from dental), with a pension (in addition to whatever you've already stashed away) at the end of it.
Oslo is the most expensive city in Norway, but a lot of that is due to the property values which have skyrocketed in recent years. Renting or buying property there costs a lot, but that being said I have friends who own and friends who rent in Oslo, and they all seem to manage fine. They certainly aren't starving :)
Other benefits to consider are a pretty robust welfare system including such goodies as paternity leave, paid sick leave, and the aforementioned health-care. Other good stuff is fantastic scenery, possibly one of the nicest places in the world to sail, lots of outdoor sports, a pretty safe place to live and, if applicable, gay marriage.
On to the bad stuff:
Norway isn't as expensive as everyone likes to make it out to be. Yes, alchohol is taxed to death and hence very expensive, but most everyone seems to manage to get drunk as often as any other European so... As long as you get a reasonable wage from the Norwegian company, you'll be surpised how quickly you get used to the cost of living here. After a while you just stop translating prices in your head.
Afaik Norwegians pay more tax than you would in the US, and we are taxed on such benefits as the free cellphone and home internet you mentioned. Knowing kemneren, you'd probably be taxed on the free flights home too...
Norway is cold and Oslo gets quite a lot of snow in winter, but the summers there are warm and mostly dry (not that I'd know, stuck out here on the west coast *cries*), and there are tons of islands of varying size along the coast, perfect for sailing.
The language is not really a big deal. It depends on you and your aptitude more than anything. I know people who have lived here for years that are *terrible*, and others that could have passed for Norwegians a year after arriving.
If any of that was in the least bit helpful and you want to ask anything else, i.e. specifics, feel free to email me (in profile).
posted by esilenna at 12:34 PM on May 22, 2007
Choosing to live in Norway for a few years would mean a slew of new experiences, and if you ended up living there for a long time you would benefit from a life of free (or at least very cheap) health-care (apart from dental), with a pension (in addition to whatever you've already stashed away) at the end of it.
Oslo is the most expensive city in Norway, but a lot of that is due to the property values which have skyrocketed in recent years. Renting or buying property there costs a lot, but that being said I have friends who own and friends who rent in Oslo, and they all seem to manage fine. They certainly aren't starving :)
Other benefits to consider are a pretty robust welfare system including such goodies as paternity leave, paid sick leave, and the aforementioned health-care. Other good stuff is fantastic scenery, possibly one of the nicest places in the world to sail, lots of outdoor sports, a pretty safe place to live and, if applicable, gay marriage.
On to the bad stuff:
Norway isn't as expensive as everyone likes to make it out to be. Yes, alchohol is taxed to death and hence very expensive, but most everyone seems to manage to get drunk as often as any other European so... As long as you get a reasonable wage from the Norwegian company, you'll be surpised how quickly you get used to the cost of living here. After a while you just stop translating prices in your head.
Afaik Norwegians pay more tax than you would in the US, and we are taxed on such benefits as the free cellphone and home internet you mentioned. Knowing kemneren, you'd probably be taxed on the free flights home too...
Norway is cold and Oslo gets quite a lot of snow in winter, but the summers there are warm and mostly dry (not that I'd know, stuck out here on the west coast *cries*), and there are tons of islands of varying size along the coast, perfect for sailing.
The language is not really a big deal. It depends on you and your aptitude more than anything. I know people who have lived here for years that are *terrible*, and others that could have passed for Norwegians a year after arriving.
If any of that was in the least bit helpful and you want to ask anything else, i.e. specifics, feel free to email me (in profile).
posted by esilenna at 12:34 PM on May 22, 2007
Go, unless you have good prospects for a job in another country or if you aren't interested in living in another country. (Some people aren't.) Even if the cost of living is higher, you're going to learn another way of life. It will be cheaper/easier to visit other parts of Europe and the UK. My sister-in-law and her family just returned from a few years in Norway. They seemed to love it. They moved back to Montreal as the rest of the NA continent was just too boring!
posted by acoutu at 12:40 PM on May 22, 2007
posted by acoutu at 12:40 PM on May 22, 2007
I can't do anythingf but second what esilenna said above.
I'm also Norwegian, so I would of course recommend to come to Norway. The downside is the long dark winter, allthough I think that spring and those light summer nights makes up for it (and the air, and the trees in spring and...)
Yes, Norway is expensive, but the average wage is high enough to manage a fairly good lifestyle, more so when you're single. Most Norwegians buy their won house/flat early on, which is one of the reason why we say living is expensive here, I don't think rent (not buying) is particularly much higher than in the average USanian cities. Taxes are high, but the welfare-system works fairly well.
Also learning Norwegian should not be too diffcult -I teach Norwegian to foreigners like you, so if you put some effort into it you'll speak it pretty well after a year - if you practise:) Since you're not a refugee you will have to pay for the courses yourself (although the prices are heavily subsidised), and you can probably discuss your employer into paying them for you. Many companies use English as the working language, and most Norwegians speak it well.
Some links: Norwegian directorate of immigration
New in Norway.
There are also lots and lots of foreigners in Norway, and many from your side of the pond, so I guess the questions you have aren't unique.
This site is for really for expats in Stavanger -where the oil is, but I guess they have some useful info, also check out their links. 8Or this
Feel free to email me if you have any further questions (although I'm better at answering the ones that you have when you get here!)
posted by mummimamma at 1:32 PM on May 22, 2007
I'm also Norwegian, so I would of course recommend to come to Norway. The downside is the long dark winter, allthough I think that spring and those light summer nights makes up for it (and the air, and the trees in spring and...)
Yes, Norway is expensive, but the average wage is high enough to manage a fairly good lifestyle, more so when you're single. Most Norwegians buy their won house/flat early on, which is one of the reason why we say living is expensive here, I don't think rent (not buying) is particularly much higher than in the average USanian cities. Taxes are high, but the welfare-system works fairly well.
Also learning Norwegian should not be too diffcult -I teach Norwegian to foreigners like you, so if you put some effort into it you'll speak it pretty well after a year - if you practise:) Since you're not a refugee you will have to pay for the courses yourself (although the prices are heavily subsidised), and you can probably discuss your employer into paying them for you. Many companies use English as the working language, and most Norwegians speak it well.
Some links: Norwegian directorate of immigration
New in Norway.
There are also lots and lots of foreigners in Norway, and many from your side of the pond, so I guess the questions you have aren't unique.
This site is for really for expats in Stavanger -where the oil is, but I guess they have some useful info, also check out their links. 8Or this
Feel free to email me if you have any further questions (although I'm better at answering the ones that you have when you get here!)
posted by mummimamma at 1:32 PM on May 22, 2007
I'm not single. I have kids. I'd pack the car and DRIVE to Norway if I was offered a job.
posted by BrodieShadeTree at 2:16 PM on May 22, 2007
posted by BrodieShadeTree at 2:16 PM on May 22, 2007
A friend was just telling me how stunning Norway is. A lot of the things you want to do can be done in Norway - the sailing, the house. Living in Norway would make it a lot more likely that you'd have a relationship with someone there. You'd make friends and have a lasting connection to another country.
You also just learned that your skills are highly portable and in demand. That's useful to know.
It sounds daunting, and it is. But you're at a great age to do this. If it doesn't work out, if you hate it there, or hate the job, you'll take a financial hit, and maybe a blow to your pride, but many, many people most regret the adventure not taken.
posted by theora55 at 5:05 PM on May 22, 2007
You also just learned that your skills are highly portable and in demand. That's useful to know.
It sounds daunting, and it is. But you're at a great age to do this. If it doesn't work out, if you hate it there, or hate the job, you'll take a financial hit, and maybe a blow to your pride, but many, many people most regret the adventure not taken.
posted by theora55 at 5:05 PM on May 22, 2007
My only thought is that as oil prices rise over the next few decades, what hurts the US economy will only boost theirs, so for long-term family raising purposes, it might be useful to be established there :)
posted by -harlequin- at 5:36 PM on May 22, 2007
posted by -harlequin- at 5:36 PM on May 22, 2007
Those skills you have planning in the future will help you now and forever. Living in the now would mean, to me, making the move...
posted by UncleHornHead at 7:04 PM on May 22, 2007
posted by UncleHornHead at 7:04 PM on May 22, 2007
Oh and I forgot a really nice perk! The four or five (or more depending on where you work) of paid vacation a year.
posted by esilenna at 2:43 AM on May 23, 2007
posted by esilenna at 2:43 AM on May 23, 2007
Norway is very expensive and the summer doesn't last too long.
It's expensive and summer doesn't last too long in northern Europe, in general. Doesn't stop anybody moving to London, and the summers in Oslo are just as warm as England.
Moving somewhere where booze is expensive? Drink less.
Taxes are high? What you lose on taxes you gain on not having to buy private health insurance.
Cars a drain on money? You won't need a car.
Good luck!
posted by methylsalicylate at 2:59 AM on May 23, 2007
It's expensive and summer doesn't last too long in northern Europe, in general. Doesn't stop anybody moving to London, and the summers in Oslo are just as warm as England.
Moving somewhere where booze is expensive? Drink less.
Taxes are high? What you lose on taxes you gain on not having to buy private health insurance.
Cars a drain on money? You won't need a car.
Good luck!
posted by methylsalicylate at 2:59 AM on May 23, 2007
Go. Go, go, go. I have a five-year-plan to move to Scandinavia and I am so fucking jealous of you. Norway is beautiful. GO.
posted by corvine at 4:29 AM on May 23, 2007
posted by corvine at 4:29 AM on May 23, 2007
I don't think you should go. I think you should send me the details of the vacancy instead. I'll send you a postcard if I get the job. :-)
To be serious, you'd be a fool to pass up a chance like this. I visited Norway last summer and was blown away by the country. I'd bite off one or more limbs - even my own, if it was necessary - if it meant I could spend more time there.
posted by Lionel d'Lion at 12:19 PM on May 23, 2007
To be serious, you'd be a fool to pass up a chance like this. I visited Norway last summer and was blown away by the country. I'd bite off one or more limbs - even my own, if it was necessary - if it meant I could spend more time there.
posted by Lionel d'Lion at 12:19 PM on May 23, 2007
weeks, WEEKS!
The four or five (or more depending on where you work) weeks of paid vacation a year.
ugh, can't believe I forgot the most important word in the sentence...
Also, unemployment benefits and summer nights that never seem to end...
and I'm stopping now.
posted by esilenna at 5:10 AM on May 24, 2007
The four or five (or more depending on where you work) weeks of paid vacation a year.
ugh, can't believe I forgot the most important word in the sentence...
Also, unemployment benefits and summer nights that never seem to end...
and I'm stopping now.
posted by esilenna at 5:10 AM on May 24, 2007
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posted by COD at 12:02 PM on May 22, 2007