Can I get a get?
May 17, 2007 11:09 AM Subscribe
What does "bais din tzedek umishpot" mean and why is it posted in a courthouse?
On the first floor of the civil court building in Brooklyn, NY, there is a sign posted next to the elevators with these words. Googling the whole phrase turned up nothing, but googling the individual words reveal that bais din is a rabbinical court, and tzedek umishpot is righteousness and justice. Is there a rabbinical court at 141 Livingston Street? If so, that seems a little weird from a separation of church and state standpoint.
On the first floor of the civil court building in Brooklyn, NY, there is a sign posted next to the elevators with these words. Googling the whole phrase turned up nothing, but googling the individual words reveal that bais din is a rabbinical court, and tzedek umishpot is righteousness and justice. Is there a rabbinical court at 141 Livingston Street? If so, that seems a little weird from a separation of church and state standpoint.
"tzedek umishpot" is hebrew, and it means Justice and Judgement. Perhaps someone else can do the full-translation.
posted by blue_beetle at 11:17 AM on May 17, 2007
posted by blue_beetle at 11:17 AM on May 17, 2007
On preview: I guess I should have read the question. d'oh!
posted by blue_beetle at 11:18 AM on May 17, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by blue_beetle at 11:18 AM on May 17, 2007 [1 favorite]
grouse, a bet din is a rabbinical court. The word rabbi doesn't need to appear in the phrase for that to be so.
posted by amro at 11:19 AM on May 17, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by amro at 11:19 AM on May 17, 2007 [1 favorite]
(See the first sentence of your Wikipedia link.)
posted by amro at 11:20 AM on May 17, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by amro at 11:20 AM on May 17, 2007 [1 favorite]
Best answer: From allpages.com:
Bais Din Tzedek Umishpot Inc
141 Livingston
Brooklyn, NY 11201-5133
(718) 222-5252
Perhaps the sign by the elevators is referring to a company/rabbinical law office/something similar that you take that particular elevator to get to?
It does seem odd that this is in the Brooklyn civil court building, though—unless the landlord (hypothetically, given a non-governmental landlord) rents space to other legal offices, not just the court. I don't know if that's normal, though—does that ever even occur, that a local court is located in a building owned by someone other than the government? Or would the government rent out space in a court building to legal offices or rabbinical courts?
Anyway, if I were you, I'd call the number and see what I could find out.
(I'd call, but I'm at work.)
posted by limeonaire at 11:32 AM on May 17, 2007
Bais Din Tzedek Umishpot Inc
141 Livingston
Brooklyn, NY 11201-5133
(718) 222-5252
Perhaps the sign by the elevators is referring to a company/rabbinical law office/something similar that you take that particular elevator to get to?
It does seem odd that this is in the Brooklyn civil court building, though—unless the landlord (hypothetically, given a non-governmental landlord) rents space to other legal offices, not just the court. I don't know if that's normal, though—does that ever even occur, that a local court is located in a building owned by someone other than the government? Or would the government rent out space in a court building to legal offices or rabbinical courts?
Anyway, if I were you, I'd call the number and see what I could find out.
(I'd call, but I'm at work.)
posted by limeonaire at 11:32 AM on May 17, 2007
If so, that seems a little weird from a separation of church and state standpoint.
No its not. Not in the US at least. There's all sorts of "In God We Trust" and other religious items pastered in or around court-house buildings. There's at least one courthouse with a 10 commandments plaque up. In court they still have people swearing on holy books.
This kind of thing is more common and accepted than you might think.
posted by damn dirty ape at 11:32 AM on May 17, 2007
No its not. Not in the US at least. There's all sorts of "In God We Trust" and other religious items pastered in or around court-house buildings. There's at least one courthouse with a 10 commandments plaque up. In court they still have people swearing on holy books.
This kind of thing is more common and accepted than you might think.
posted by damn dirty ape at 11:32 AM on May 17, 2007
(See the first sentence of your Wikipedia link.)
What this same first sentence tells us is that there's a slight divergence between literal meaning and traditional usage (whodathunkit). Given the literal meaning of "house of judgment", the civil court officials could permissibly have decided to repurpose the phrase away from it's traditional connotation of rabbinical court and use it as an auspicious label for their own court, even though their court is not religious.
Doesn't it seem like that's what's going on here?
posted by grobstein at 11:34 AM on May 17, 2007
What this same first sentence tells us is that there's a slight divergence between literal meaning and traditional usage (whodathunkit). Given the literal meaning of "house of judgment", the civil court officials could permissibly have decided to repurpose the phrase away from it's traditional connotation of rabbinical court and use it as an auspicious label for their own court, even though their court is not religious.
Doesn't it seem like that's what's going on here?
posted by grobstein at 11:34 AM on May 17, 2007
amro, I know what a beit din is. Based on the original description, I interpreted the use of the two words like grobstein did. But it seems limeonaire is onto something more likely.
posted by grouse at 11:51 AM on May 17, 2007
posted by grouse at 11:51 AM on May 17, 2007
Best answer: Defendant has submitted the affidavit of Thomas J. Lotito, Coordinator, Department of Facilities Management, New York State Office of Court Administration, who is responsible for planning and leasing court facilities for the Unified Court System. Lotito states that 141 Livingston Street is a privately owned building wherein space is leased for the Civil Court. Verdejo v. New York
So it looks like limeonaire's guess is correct. The court appears to be only one of multiple tenants in a private building.
posted by Partial Law at 11:53 AM on May 17, 2007
So it looks like limeonaire's guess is correct. The court appears to be only one of multiple tenants in a private building.
posted by Partial Law at 11:53 AM on May 17, 2007
Response by poster: Yes, it looks like it's a private building. I knew there were floors I'd never been to, but just figured they were court offices or personnel or something.
dda: I grew up in Texas, so I'm well aware of the ways that god intrudes into places it shouldn't be. However, if it weren't a private building and the state was somehow supporting the imposition of a particular religious law (rather than the display of it), that would be quite different than the In God We Trust signs. (And people can affirm instead of swearing on a Bible.) Regardless, that's not what's going on here, and I thank everyone for their detective work.
posted by Mavri at 12:47 PM on May 17, 2007
dda: I grew up in Texas, so I'm well aware of the ways that god intrudes into places it shouldn't be. However, if it weren't a private building and the state was somehow supporting the imposition of a particular religious law (rather than the display of it), that would be quite different than the In God We Trust signs. (And people can affirm instead of swearing on a Bible.) Regardless, that's not what's going on here, and I thank everyone for their detective work.
posted by Mavri at 12:47 PM on May 17, 2007
Partial Law beat me to it, but I just looked up the address on Property Shark, and it looks like some Berkshire Equity group actually owns the building (or they will when it's not the property of Independence Savings Bank anymore).
posted by JaredSeth at 12:53 PM on May 17, 2007
posted by JaredSeth at 12:53 PM on May 17, 2007
(Knowledge-free interpretation)
It is probably a business (perhaps non-profit) to conveniently allow Jews to get a religious divorce when they get a civil divorce decree.
posted by hexatron at 2:40 PM on May 17, 2007
It is probably a business (perhaps non-profit) to conveniently allow Jews to get a religious divorce when they get a civil divorce decree.
posted by hexatron at 2:40 PM on May 17, 2007
Beis sounds like it's an ashkenazi form of "Beit", which means "House of". So working off of Blue Beetle, we have:
House of Justice and Judgement
posted by kingjoeshmoe at 4:02 PM on May 17, 2007
House of Justice and Judgement
posted by kingjoeshmoe at 4:02 PM on May 17, 2007
When Orthodox Jews divorce, under Jewish religious law the husband must free her from the marriage vows before she can remarry.
Jewish divorces can be as acrimonious as any, and ex-husbands often withheld this release.
A bet din is a court-style proceeding presided over by rabbis and other important men of the community. It that can order the husband to provide the release.
In New York, the husband can be ordered by a regular court to participate in a bet din. These are often held in a state courthouse.
posted by KRS at 10:14 AM on May 18, 2007
Jewish divorces can be as acrimonious as any, and ex-husbands often withheld this release.
A bet din is a court-style proceeding presided over by rabbis and other important men of the community. It that can order the husband to provide the release.
In New York, the husband can be ordered by a regular court to participate in a bet din. These are often held in a state courthouse.
posted by KRS at 10:14 AM on May 18, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
Is there a rabbinical court at 141 Livingston Street?
You'll notice that nothing that sounds like "rabbi" appears in that phrase, so probably not.
posted by grouse at 11:17 AM on May 17, 2007