Turntable, cheapest that isn't junk
May 2, 2007 12:45 PM Subscribe
Turntable help from vinyl geeks, please! Low-end but adequate direct-drive turntable recs?
NOT for scratching or other DJ duty! I am setting out to digitize about 20 years worth of classical music on vinyl. I have, or had, a turntable, a cheapie belt-drive Sony from Best Buy. Today I was standing there playing Handel and contentedly watching the waveform appear in Audacity when hey whoops the music changed pitch on me. Down almost a half tone. The only thing I can think of to suspect is the turntable--I assume the belt is slipping so I want to replace the tt with a direct shaft-drive model and not worry about belts getting worn out or stretched and having to be replaced. But I'm seriously money-limited, so I'm looking at things like the STANTON T60X or the Audio-Technica AT-PL120. Both seem widely available for under $200, and I would be expecting to add $70-80 for an appropriate cartridge and stylus.
But before clicking "check out now" I'd like to have opinions from Those Who Know. Is there a better solution I've overlooked?
NOT for scratching or other DJ duty! I am setting out to digitize about 20 years worth of classical music on vinyl. I have, or had, a turntable, a cheapie belt-drive Sony from Best Buy. Today I was standing there playing Handel and contentedly watching the waveform appear in Audacity when hey whoops the music changed pitch on me. Down almost a half tone. The only thing I can think of to suspect is the turntable--I assume the belt is slipping so I want to replace the tt with a direct shaft-drive model and not worry about belts getting worn out or stretched and having to be replaced. But I'm seriously money-limited, so I'm looking at things like the STANTON T60X or the Audio-Technica AT-PL120. Both seem widely available for under $200, and I would be expecting to add $70-80 for an appropriate cartridge and stylus.
But before clicking "check out now" I'd like to have opinions from Those Who Know. Is there a better solution I've overlooked?
I'm sorry to give you the border-line ignorant turntablist response, even though you specifically ask that I not give it, but the Technics SL-1200 has one of the strongest motors on the market and has been a mainstay within the DJ community for what, twenty years now? I bet you could find a used one for around the $200 mark (maybe a little over!).
As for a biased cartridge/stylus response, I recommend the Shure line (particularly, the M55). Again, excellent sound quality and durability, fits your price range.
posted by phaedon at 12:54 PM on May 2, 2007
As for a biased cartridge/stylus response, I recommend the Shure line (particularly, the M55). Again, excellent sound quality and durability, fits your price range.
posted by phaedon at 12:54 PM on May 2, 2007
If you're ripping audio from a turntable, you're going to want belt drive instead of direct drive due to lower audio interference from the motor. Having a strong motor is actually detrimental to recording.
posted by mikeh at 1:06 PM on May 2, 2007
posted by mikeh at 1:06 PM on May 2, 2007
Belt drive is (in general) preferred for an "audiophile" turntable. DJ tables are direct drive because the platter needs much more torque to allow for the use of a slip mat.
These guys stock a wide range of gear.
posted by omnidrew at 1:10 PM on May 2, 2007
These guys stock a wide range of gear.
posted by omnidrew at 1:10 PM on May 2, 2007
Your cheapest option is probably to just replace the belt on your existing table. If you do go for a new table, go with a belt drive for lower noise.
posted by caddis at 1:20 PM on May 2, 2007
posted by caddis at 1:20 PM on May 2, 2007
You can get a used Rega or NAD for not too much, both of which which will meet your needs nicely.
And don't skimp on the cartridge, btw. Try Ortofon.
posted by four panels at 1:20 PM on May 2, 2007
And don't skimp on the cartridge, btw. Try Ortofon.
posted by four panels at 1:20 PM on May 2, 2007
This Music Hall table would be great if you are going to replace your existing table rather than repair it. It comes with a fine cartridge and also with a fine review from Michael Fremer, who is very, very picky about turntables.
posted by caddis at 1:31 PM on May 2, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by caddis at 1:31 PM on May 2, 2007 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: > If you're "seriously" on a budget, why not just replace the belt?
Mainly because this turntable is only a few months old. If it can't stay on pitch at 7-odd months out of the box I don't trust it. I'm also time-limited, I have a demanding, any hour of the day job and I'm also a single parent. My life is basically work, be Mr. Mom and occasionally sleep so this has to be a parallel-thread, running-in-the-background project--rip the vinyl while in the shower, leave a disk transferring when I leave for work, leave a disk transferring when I go to bed, etc., which means I can't listen to it and monitor it for pitch changes and so on while it's happening. I rip and archive (FLAC lossless compression) and then listen and process to mp3 as I can, and the raw capture files are getting way ahead of the listening and further procession. I fear discovering that every side I captured in February, say, has the pitch rubber-legging around like a drunken sailor when I do get around to checking them, and they all have to be done over. For my purpose reliability is a bigger plus than the nth degree of audiophile purity. Direct drive turntables are at least speed-locked to the 60 cycles/second house power and I won't get a pitch wobble unless I get a power brownout or it gets so old the bearings start to go. Or so I hope.
posted by jfuller at 1:37 PM on May 2, 2007
Mainly because this turntable is only a few months old. If it can't stay on pitch at 7-odd months out of the box I don't trust it. I'm also time-limited, I have a demanding, any hour of the day job and I'm also a single parent. My life is basically work, be Mr. Mom and occasionally sleep so this has to be a parallel-thread, running-in-the-background project--rip the vinyl while in the shower, leave a disk transferring when I leave for work, leave a disk transferring when I go to bed, etc., which means I can't listen to it and monitor it for pitch changes and so on while it's happening. I rip and archive (FLAC lossless compression) and then listen and process to mp3 as I can, and the raw capture files are getting way ahead of the listening and further procession. I fear discovering that every side I captured in February, say, has the pitch rubber-legging around like a drunken sailor when I do get around to checking them, and they all have to be done over. For my purpose reliability is a bigger plus than the nth degree of audiophile purity. Direct drive turntables are at least speed-locked to the 60 cycles/second house power and I won't get a pitch wobble unless I get a power brownout or it gets so old the bearings start to go. Or so I hope.
posted by jfuller at 1:37 PM on May 2, 2007
I STRONGLY second caddis's recomendation on the Music Hall. Fantastic.
posted by drobot at 1:38 PM on May 2, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by drobot at 1:38 PM on May 2, 2007 [1 favorite]
My geeky friends are all about the Ion USB turntable, although I can't seem to find what kind of drive it is. For my conversion needs I picked up a used Thorens in need of a belt for just over a c note and got a new belt for six bucks and a mid-level AT cart, and I've been happy for over six years now. It works great with my computer and my home stereo.
Also, needledoctor (caddis' link) has always been very helpful to me in the past, give them a shout if you have any questions.
posted by 1f2frfbf at 1:45 PM on May 2, 2007 [1 favorite]
Also, needledoctor (caddis' link) has always been very helpful to me in the past, give them a shout if you have any questions.
posted by 1f2frfbf at 1:45 PM on May 2, 2007 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: > go with a belt drive for lower noise.
If it's a constant background noise audible both during the program tracks and during the between-track grooves (as you would expect if it's turntable-generated) , you just take your noise-removal profile between the tracks and Audigy wipes it out clean as proverbial whistle. Actually I'm doing both noise and click/pop removal with a light hand, reducing but not eliminating. I grew up with vinyl; tuning noise out with the mind and hearing only the program is second nature. Noise isn't a huge issue. Pitch steadiness is huge.
Thanks very much to everyone who has responded so far. I'm feeling more educated already!
posted by jfuller at 1:50 PM on May 2, 2007
If it's a constant background noise audible both during the program tracks and during the between-track grooves (as you would expect if it's turntable-generated) , you just take your noise-removal profile between the tracks and Audigy wipes it out clean as proverbial whistle. Actually I'm doing both noise and click/pop removal with a light hand, reducing but not eliminating. I grew up with vinyl; tuning noise out with the mind and hearing only the program is second nature. Noise isn't a huge issue. Pitch steadiness is huge.
Thanks very much to everyone who has responded so far. I'm feeling more educated already!
posted by jfuller at 1:50 PM on May 2, 2007
SL-1200MKII seconded. In my experience, budget turntable recs vary significantly, but the MKII tends to appear more often than any other model.
It's not a DJ turntable, even though it's often used as such. I believe it was originally designed for home listening.
From what I hear, it's nearly indestructable.
Somebody mentioned motor noise as detrimental to recording, but I remember reading that it's actually not a problem -- despite what audiophiles may think. (true? I don't know)
posted by archagon at 3:10 PM on May 2, 2007
It's not a DJ turntable, even though it's often used as such. I believe it was originally designed for home listening.
From what I hear, it's nearly indestructable.
Somebody mentioned motor noise as detrimental to recording, but I remember reading that it's actually not a problem -- despite what audiophiles may think. (true? I don't know)
posted by archagon at 3:10 PM on May 2, 2007
Oh - they cost $500 new, but I picked one up for $200 on CL.
posted by archagon at 3:12 PM on May 2, 2007
posted by archagon at 3:12 PM on May 2, 2007
While I think the Music Hall is a great compromise turntable, the best bang for the buck around, someday, someday, one of these will be mine. The thing with turntables is that the sky is the limit. You would think it wouldn't make that much difference, but the expensive tables (with an appropriate cart) really make a beautiful noise. The Scout is all I could ever ask for, but you know the sky really is the limit with these things. (of course you must also remember that a fool and his money are soon part)
Just to add one more budget wonder - the latest issue of Stereophile has a review of the Rega P1, which is about the same price as the Music Hall and looks just as good, and it also comes with a quality cart.
posted by caddis at 3:58 PM on May 2, 2007 [1 favorite]
Just to add one more budget wonder - the latest issue of Stereophile has a review of the Rega P1, which is about the same price as the Music Hall and looks just as good, and it also comes with a quality cart.
posted by caddis at 3:58 PM on May 2, 2007 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Well, I have a turntable. Two of 'em actually, I found a Sansui DA-P550 on ebay for buy-it-now $24.99, and then I saw another one just like it for buy-it-now $14.95, and I got both. I've had wonderful success with Sansui equipment over the years, the first amp I ever bought (Sansui AU-555A, circa about 1972) is still in use in my bedroom. This seemed to be MOR stuff when it was new but I see it's considered "vintage" now, heh. If these turntables last as long as the amp (and the tuner that sits beside it, which has sent some decades of Met broadcasts and other live stuff to tape) it will probably outlast me.
This thread was extremely useful to me, fuller tips hat to all--I followed everybody's links plus several chains of grand-links and great-grand-links. Thanks especially for the pointers to needledoctor, I'll be returning there! In re-reading what I posted it dawned on me that I had another requirement I didn't mention in the fpp: the table has to be at least semi-auto to raise the arm at the end of the disk even if I'm not there, as I'm likely not to be. But I don't need wide speed adjustment because, not being a DJ, I won't be doing any beat matching. Pretty much all the lower end direct drive tables I saw today waste money on supporting wide speed adjustment, and then keep the cost down by being full manual. Not what I need.
I'm sure the ebay stuff I linked to will make y'all audiophiles cringe. I have one brief story regarding that, not to prove you're wrong (because I don't think you are, different strokes and each to his own and all that) but just to hint that there are other musically valid worlds not inhabited by Philistines, barbarians and tin-eared woodmen in which equipment like this nevertheless has value. Once back in the day I attended a school up East (Cambridge Mass, name starts with H, you'd probably recognize it.) I was not a music student but through the vagaries of apartment-finding my nearest neighbors and soon best friends were. These folks were both headed for the top of their profession. One was a grad student in conducting, and while still a student had been hired as conductor of a good and well-known professional Boston ensemble. The other was an undergrad who was then going for a summa, which he got. His major project over and above school was to become at least a competent journeyman on every instrument of the orchestra, so he would understand the problems of every one of the instrumentalists he would be conducting. After taking his summa he, having a Belgian girlfriend, got EU working papers and got himself hired in Brussels as kappelmeister--like Bach--of a large, musically active church which maintained its own chamber orchestra and chorus. Imagine any bunch of Europeans hiring any American to direct them in any artistic/cultural endeavor, let alone some teenager just out of school and in his first job, and be astounded.
I mention these things only to give point to the following question: what kind of stereos did these uber-musicians own? Well, they owned absolute crap stereos. Pick up an old National Geographic and look for ads for Longines Symphonette, and you'll have a good idea what I mean by crap. ("At no extra cost, you also receive a ten-disc set of Selections From The World's Greatest Music, performed by the Hollywood Bowl Symphony Orchestra, the Living Strings, and other superb performers." And my buddies were entirely content with their crap stereos. When they listened to music they listened with their noses stuck in grand-staff scores. They got the notes, the harmony, the counterpoint from the scores. They got the instrumental timbres and ensemble sonority from auditory memory of live performance and practice. I gradually understood that they were getting nothing from the record but time-related things: tempi, pacing, rubato and so on. Since time-related data comes over exactly as well through $20 speakers as through $5000 speakers they never thought to want better ones. Now I am of course not a musician in anywhere near their league but I can read a score and I have heard lots of live performances and have a pretty well stocked auditory memory. So I expect to go on with my massive digitizing project using Sansui-level equipment to transcribe all ye vinyl. And a Soundblaster Live for playback.
posted by jfuller at 7:15 PM on May 2, 2007 [1 favorite]
This thread was extremely useful to me, fuller tips hat to all--I followed everybody's links plus several chains of grand-links and great-grand-links. Thanks especially for the pointers to needledoctor, I'll be returning there! In re-reading what I posted it dawned on me that I had another requirement I didn't mention in the fpp: the table has to be at least semi-auto to raise the arm at the end of the disk even if I'm not there, as I'm likely not to be. But I don't need wide speed adjustment because, not being a DJ, I won't be doing any beat matching. Pretty much all the lower end direct drive tables I saw today waste money on supporting wide speed adjustment, and then keep the cost down by being full manual. Not what I need.
I'm sure the ebay stuff I linked to will make y'all audiophiles cringe. I have one brief story regarding that, not to prove you're wrong (because I don't think you are, different strokes and each to his own and all that) but just to hint that there are other musically valid worlds not inhabited by Philistines, barbarians and tin-eared woodmen in which equipment like this nevertheless has value. Once back in the day I attended a school up East (Cambridge Mass, name starts with H, you'd probably recognize it.) I was not a music student but through the vagaries of apartment-finding my nearest neighbors and soon best friends were. These folks were both headed for the top of their profession. One was a grad student in conducting, and while still a student had been hired as conductor of a good and well-known professional Boston ensemble. The other was an undergrad who was then going for a summa, which he got. His major project over and above school was to become at least a competent journeyman on every instrument of the orchestra, so he would understand the problems of every one of the instrumentalists he would be conducting. After taking his summa he, having a Belgian girlfriend, got EU working papers and got himself hired in Brussels as kappelmeister--like Bach--of a large, musically active church which maintained its own chamber orchestra and chorus. Imagine any bunch of Europeans hiring any American to direct them in any artistic/cultural endeavor, let alone some teenager just out of school and in his first job, and be astounded.
I mention these things only to give point to the following question: what kind of stereos did these uber-musicians own? Well, they owned absolute crap stereos. Pick up an old National Geographic and look for ads for Longines Symphonette, and you'll have a good idea what I mean by crap. ("At no extra cost, you also receive a ten-disc set of Selections From The World's Greatest Music, performed by the Hollywood Bowl Symphony Orchestra, the Living Strings, and other superb performers." And my buddies were entirely content with their crap stereos. When they listened to music they listened with their noses stuck in grand-staff scores. They got the notes, the harmony, the counterpoint from the scores. They got the instrumental timbres and ensemble sonority from auditory memory of live performance and practice. I gradually understood that they were getting nothing from the record but time-related things: tempi, pacing, rubato and so on. Since time-related data comes over exactly as well through $20 speakers as through $5000 speakers they never thought to want better ones. Now I am of course not a musician in anywhere near their league but I can read a score and I have heard lots of live performances and have a pretty well stocked auditory memory. So I expect to go on with my massive digitizing project using Sansui-level equipment to transcribe all ye vinyl. And a Soundblaster Live for playback.
posted by jfuller at 7:15 PM on May 2, 2007 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by rhizome at 12:49 PM on May 2, 2007