Layup... all the way to the bank!
April 30, 2007 8:40 PM Subscribe
Why is it easier to bank in a layup than not?
(Poorly phrased question, sorry).
You're always taught to bank in layups rather than to just drop them in. I suppose it depends on how tall you are, but even 7-footers in the NBA will bank the ball in on occasion, and littler guys almost always send them off the backboard. But why is it easier that way? Do you have a larger margin of error? I have played plenty of basketball and certainly agree, but I can't quite put my finger on why.
(Poorly phrased question, sorry).
You're always taught to bank in layups rather than to just drop them in. I suppose it depends on how tall you are, but even 7-footers in the NBA will bank the ball in on occasion, and littler guys almost always send them off the backboard. But why is it easier that way? Do you have a larger margin of error? I have played plenty of basketball and certainly agree, but I can't quite put my finger on why.
Well there's the big box to aim at as well. Maybe its just easier to judge.
posted by jourman2 at 9:24 PM on April 30, 2007
posted by jourman2 at 9:24 PM on April 30, 2007
You can hit more spots on the backboard and still get it in than going straight in. Of course if you can dunk, that is the surest method.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:26 PM on April 30, 2007
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:26 PM on April 30, 2007
By drop, you mean aim directly at the cylinder, from below the rim?
Velocity may be the answer. My more primitive thought was that there's something to the aiming. Going directly at the hoop, there are lots of variables -- how high your hand is when you release, how far you are away from the cylinder, etc. -- that make it hard to govern the ball's arc. The backboard shows where to aim more clearly, and in the carom, provides a defined distance to the rim. You still have to worry about some of the same things, but it just seems easier.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 9:31 PM on April 30, 2007 [1 favorite]
Velocity may be the answer. My more primitive thought was that there's something to the aiming. Going directly at the hoop, there are lots of variables -- how high your hand is when you release, how far you are away from the cylinder, etc. -- that make it hard to govern the ball's arc. The backboard shows where to aim more clearly, and in the carom, provides a defined distance to the rim. You still have to worry about some of the same things, but it just seems easier.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 9:31 PM on April 30, 2007 [1 favorite]
Clyde's right. The box is a defined spot directly over the rim. Remember that the problem with the rim is that it has such a small vertical cross section that it is practically two-dimensional. Hard to pick up. The square above the rim is an aim point which adds a third dimension. I'd suspect that the percentage of balls that have more that 50% of the area which contacts the backboard within the square have a very high percentage chance of going in. Only balls with very flat or very high arcs would miss.
Once you've got that aim point down, experience tells you how the ball reacts off the backboard and you learn to aim a bit outside the box the farther away you are to one side of the rim.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:48 PM on April 30, 2007
Once you've got that aim point down, experience tells you how the ball reacts off the backboard and you learn to aim a bit outside the box the farther away you are to one side of the rim.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:48 PM on April 30, 2007
a flaw with some of these ideas seems to be that banking it is *only* easier with a layup, not with a jumpshot or a 3 pointer.
...i think.
right?
posted by white light at 10:51 PM on April 30, 2007
...i think.
right?
posted by white light at 10:51 PM on April 30, 2007
Response by poster: white light, I was also thinking about that. There are some people, like Tim Duncan, who bank in actual jumpshots but it always looks weird and seems unnecessarily difficult.
posted by ORthey at 10:59 PM on April 30, 2007
posted by ORthey at 10:59 PM on April 30, 2007
You're banking in a layup because it reduces the speed of the ball, thus increasing the possible margin of error on your aim, because your error will have less of an effect at a lower speed...
You're not banking in a jump shot because the effect of the backboard slowing the ball down isn't enough to slow it down sufficiently to reduce error.. it's going way too fast at the time it hits the backboard and actually increases your margin of error because now it's bouncing away from the basket, so if it doesn't go directly in, you've got no chance of it bouncing into the hoop anyway... whereas if it hits the hoop itself first, it might hit the backboard and drop in...
posted by twiggy at 11:35 PM on April 30, 2007
You're not banking in a jump shot because the effect of the backboard slowing the ball down isn't enough to slow it down sufficiently to reduce error.. it's going way too fast at the time it hits the backboard and actually increases your margin of error because now it's bouncing away from the basket, so if it doesn't go directly in, you've got no chance of it bouncing into the hoop anyway... whereas if it hits the hoop itself first, it might hit the backboard and drop in...
posted by twiggy at 11:35 PM on April 30, 2007
It's also slightly easier to avoid a block while banking in a layup. Same with the shorter jumpshots, though anything more than, say, 10 feet away suffer from the effect that twiggy mentions.
posted by mullacc at 1:07 AM on May 1, 2007
posted by mullacc at 1:07 AM on May 1, 2007
Best answer: Mullacc is right. You partly revealed the answer in your question ("littler guys almost always send them off the backboard") - when the distinction between banking it in and laying it in was really taught, it was much harder to be blocked if you were banking it in.
Watch an old-school layup line - all the players should bring the ball up from their body with their hand on the side of the ball. Then they turn their hand behind the ball on the motion to lay it in and follow through by smacking the backboard beside the rim. So the motion is like a tiny jumpshot. In this way the ball doesn't leave your hand until it's just about to hit the backboard. In the era when players would have started incorporating layups of different styles (50s/60s), this would have been hard to block as players didn't try to block the ball until it left your hands. It's still illegal to touch the ball after it touches the backboard but with modern pterodactyls like Tayshaun Prince, you can have the ball blocked out of your hands!
Anyway, if you watch the classic players who just lay it in with no backboard (George Gervin and his finger roll, Dr. J, Clyde Drexler) - they usually do so when they've completely separated themselves from all defenders. This motion is quite a bit different as you're hand is under or in front of the ball. You're holding it out like an offering, an offering to get swatted! Watch Steve Nash - he lays it in off of a scoop or finger roll, but he's usually frozen the help defenders to the ground because they are anticipating a kick out for a 3. His own defender is probably sealed on his trailing hip. In other words, the scoop or finger roll is to be used when you can't be blocked. Also, think of a post player who has got the ball right under the basket. They pump fake and wait until their defender's timing is off and then go up and simply lay it in straight. If you're tall and the defender can't block you, it is easier to just drop the ball in. If you're short (I'm 5'9") you need that backboard to keep from being blocked.
Besides keeping the ball in your hand longer, you can let go of the ball early but use the backboard to create unanticipated angles. Allen Iverson is the best I've ever seen at this. If you're coming in oblique to the basket, you can flip the ball up way out from the basket and use a really broad area of the glass to angle it in (well outside of the box anyway). In this way, you've probably shot well before the defender expects it and at an angle that the defender can't just subconsciously go up to block.
There's some truth to some of the other ideas, too, that you've got more chances of the ball bouncing around and going in if you use the backboard. I've certainly broken away from the crowd on a runout only to muff the layup by drawing too much of the back iron trying to scoop it in. When you're short like me, a finger roll is a difficult shot as you're really spinning the ball up in the air to decelerate it and trying to get timing and angle to let it arc into the basket. Not easy to do if you're running full-speed away from a group you just stole the ball from!
posted by Slothrop at 2:26 AM on May 1, 2007 [3 favorites]
Watch an old-school layup line - all the players should bring the ball up from their body with their hand on the side of the ball. Then they turn their hand behind the ball on the motion to lay it in and follow through by smacking the backboard beside the rim. So the motion is like a tiny jumpshot. In this way the ball doesn't leave your hand until it's just about to hit the backboard. In the era when players would have started incorporating layups of different styles (50s/60s), this would have been hard to block as players didn't try to block the ball until it left your hands. It's still illegal to touch the ball after it touches the backboard but with modern pterodactyls like Tayshaun Prince, you can have the ball blocked out of your hands!
Anyway, if you watch the classic players who just lay it in with no backboard (George Gervin and his finger roll, Dr. J, Clyde Drexler) - they usually do so when they've completely separated themselves from all defenders. This motion is quite a bit different as you're hand is under or in front of the ball. You're holding it out like an offering, an offering to get swatted! Watch Steve Nash - he lays it in off of a scoop or finger roll, but he's usually frozen the help defenders to the ground because they are anticipating a kick out for a 3. His own defender is probably sealed on his trailing hip. In other words, the scoop or finger roll is to be used when you can't be blocked. Also, think of a post player who has got the ball right under the basket. They pump fake and wait until their defender's timing is off and then go up and simply lay it in straight. If you're tall and the defender can't block you, it is easier to just drop the ball in. If you're short (I'm 5'9") you need that backboard to keep from being blocked.
Besides keeping the ball in your hand longer, you can let go of the ball early but use the backboard to create unanticipated angles. Allen Iverson is the best I've ever seen at this. If you're coming in oblique to the basket, you can flip the ball up way out from the basket and use a really broad area of the glass to angle it in (well outside of the box anyway). In this way, you've probably shot well before the defender expects it and at an angle that the defender can't just subconsciously go up to block.
There's some truth to some of the other ideas, too, that you've got more chances of the ball bouncing around and going in if you use the backboard. I've certainly broken away from the crowd on a runout only to muff the layup by drawing too much of the back iron trying to scoop it in. When you're short like me, a finger roll is a difficult shot as you're really spinning the ball up in the air to decelerate it and trying to get timing and angle to let it arc into the basket. Not easy to do if you're running full-speed away from a group you just stole the ball from!
posted by Slothrop at 2:26 AM on May 1, 2007 [3 favorites]
a flaw with some of these ideas seems to be that banking it is *only* easier with a layup, not with a jumpshot or a 3 pointer.
...i think.
right?
wrong. When you are on a diagonal to the basket the bank shot is your highest percentage. Hit the corner of the box and the ball is almost certain to fall through the hoop.
posted by caddis at 5:20 AM on May 1, 2007
...i think.
right?
wrong. When you are on a diagonal to the basket the bank shot is your highest percentage. Hit the corner of the box and the ball is almost certain to fall through the hoop.
posted by caddis at 5:20 AM on May 1, 2007
The reason why shots from the field are not banked as frequently is that it is a longer distance to hit the backboard than to go straight to the net. On short shots like layups and short jump shots, the distance is not important, so the benefits of aiming for the box on the backboard come into play.
posted by Doohickie at 7:12 AM on May 1, 2007
posted by Doohickie at 7:12 AM on May 1, 2007
The reason why shots from the field are not banked as frequently is that it is a longer distance to hit the backboard than to go straight to the net. On short shots like layups and short jump shots, the distance is not important, so the benefits of aiming for the box on the backboard come into play.
Preface: I do not know what I am talking about.
Anyway, this does not make sense to me -- the added distance should matter more, relatively speaking, on shorter shots, and should be a point of indifference on longer ones.
I think it's more plausible that the capacity to use the backboard for aiming and other control purposes diminishes with distance to the basket. I think the value declines as the necessary arc of the shot increases, too.
Repeat preface.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 7:27 AM on May 1, 2007
Preface: I do not know what I am talking about.
Anyway, this does not make sense to me -- the added distance should matter more, relatively speaking, on shorter shots, and should be a point of indifference on longer ones.
I think it's more plausible that the capacity to use the backboard for aiming and other control purposes diminishes with distance to the basket. I think the value declines as the necessary arc of the shot increases, too.
Repeat preface.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 7:27 AM on May 1, 2007
I disagree with most of the above. I think the crucial advantage of banking in a layup is that you don't have to turn your body toward the rim as you are in the act of shooting, as you would if you shot directly toward the basket.
Imagine shooting a breakaway layup: you are running down the court as fast as you can while still maintaining your dribble. If you bank it in you can either just keep running at speed toward the end line, or you can jump in the direction of your run without losing speed. By contrast, if you shoot directly for the basket, you have to perform a jump-turn so that you rotate in the air enough so that you are facing the rim as the ball leaves your hand-- unless you shoot a hook, which would require you to use the hand farthest away from the basket, and would also requre you to rotate yuor head toward the basket anyway. A jump-turn with a shot in the middle is a very complicated manouver, and requires all sorts of extra coordination and balance. It's no coincidence that almost all finger rolls are performed running directly toward the rim. Also, I don't think I've ever seen anyone who is able to jump-turn on the court without slowing down first.
posted by jamjam at 8:54 AM on May 1, 2007
Imagine shooting a breakaway layup: you are running down the court as fast as you can while still maintaining your dribble. If you bank it in you can either just keep running at speed toward the end line, or you can jump in the direction of your run without losing speed. By contrast, if you shoot directly for the basket, you have to perform a jump-turn so that you rotate in the air enough so that you are facing the rim as the ball leaves your hand-- unless you shoot a hook, which would require you to use the hand farthest away from the basket, and would also requre you to rotate yuor head toward the basket anyway. A jump-turn with a shot in the middle is a very complicated manouver, and requires all sorts of extra coordination and balance. It's no coincidence that almost all finger rolls are performed running directly toward the rim. Also, I don't think I've ever seen anyone who is able to jump-turn on the court without slowing down first.
posted by jamjam at 8:54 AM on May 1, 2007
The psysics of basketball was covered in a recent episdode of Science Friday. The author covered the whole bank when you are close vs. no bank when you are far away in the piece. In short, being far away requires more arc and velocity of the shot which makes using the backboard more difficult. Go listen to the piece, I am sure I am not doing it justice.
posted by mmascolino at 8:59 AM on May 1, 2007
posted by mmascolino at 8:59 AM on May 1, 2007
Response by poster: Thanks mmascolino, I will listen to this today!
Thanks for all these answers. One thing I should mention is that many of these answers assume running to the rim at full speed, but even when you're standing still by the basket you're told to bank it in.
posted by ORthey at 9:22 AM on May 1, 2007
Thanks for all these answers. One thing I should mention is that many of these answers assume running to the rim at full speed, but even when you're standing still by the basket you're told to bank it in.
posted by ORthey at 9:22 AM on May 1, 2007
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posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 9:00 PM on April 30, 2007