legality of sampling of "Annie" with special needs kids
April 18, 2007 1:04 PM Subscribe
another copyright/fair use question: making a version of "Annie" with a cast of non-verbal developmentally disabled kids, using the soundtrack and some dialogue from 1982 film version, what are the egal issues?
this is for my girlfriend, she is a teacher of kids with various medical issues (CP and the like) at a non-profit private school, all confined to wheelchairs and non-verbal. she very much wants to make a movie starring them and "Annie" seemed like a great idea. as they cannot sing or speak even using the movie soundtrack and dialogue seems like an excellent idea. but we are unsure of the legality of it, playing the movie song or dialogue over the images she shots.
also is it possible to use short video clips from the film, 10 seconds or less in length? i realize the length does not matter really, but that they are short might.
the total film would probably run around 1/2 hour at most, just doing certain scenes.
she would like to possibly make and sell dvds of the final version at cost to the parents also. no money would be made by any of this.
ideally it would be seen beyond the school to show what this population is capable of.
from what i can gather googling and searching MeFi it seems this is not exactly square legally, they would need to pay royalties to Columbia Pictures, but how does one find out how much that is and who to contact?
i am guessing she should contact a lawyer but i wanted to try to get some information first if it is even an option.
this is for my girlfriend, she is a teacher of kids with various medical issues (CP and the like) at a non-profit private school, all confined to wheelchairs and non-verbal. she very much wants to make a movie starring them and "Annie" seemed like a great idea. as they cannot sing or speak even using the movie soundtrack and dialogue seems like an excellent idea. but we are unsure of the legality of it, playing the movie song or dialogue over the images she shots.
also is it possible to use short video clips from the film, 10 seconds or less in length? i realize the length does not matter really, but that they are short might.
the total film would probably run around 1/2 hour at most, just doing certain scenes.
she would like to possibly make and sell dvds of the final version at cost to the parents also. no money would be made by any of this.
ideally it would be seen beyond the school to show what this population is capable of.
from what i can gather googling and searching MeFi it seems this is not exactly square legally, they would need to pay royalties to Columbia Pictures, but how does one find out how much that is and who to contact?
i am guessing she should contact a lawyer but i wanted to try to get some information first if it is even an option.
Selling it is the biggest problem in all this, even if it's for a good, not-for-profit cause. Look at it from Columbia Pictures' point of view - they will have lost control of images from the film. What if it sells a million copies or becomes the hottest new clip on Youtube? While neither is likely to happen, the powers-that-be will look at the worst case scenario, and the bottom line is that there's no way they'll let you use this footage when money is involved (and probably not if money were not an issue either!)
Paying royalties isn't enough (and you couldn't afford it either) as you'd have to license the material for that and pay whatever Columbia decides, *if* they'd let you. And they won't. Very short clips can be used in certain cases (like reviews, think Roger Ebert), but certainly not to the point where they'd add up to anything remotely like 30 minutes, and the fact that money, not promotion, is involved would certainly negate this usage.
The way I see it, you have two options:
1) Give up on the idea.
2) Do it without the factor of money and hope for the best. But with the advent of open media technology such as Youtube (whereon some proud parent would inevitably post the whole thing - you even mention the catastrophic idea that "ideally it would be seen beyond the school to show what this population is capable of"), you're taking a big and pointless risk of having it come back to bite you. Big time.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 1:17 PM on April 18, 2007
Paying royalties isn't enough (and you couldn't afford it either) as you'd have to license the material for that and pay whatever Columbia decides, *if* they'd let you. And they won't. Very short clips can be used in certain cases (like reviews, think Roger Ebert), but certainly not to the point where they'd add up to anything remotely like 30 minutes, and the fact that money, not promotion, is involved would certainly negate this usage.
The way I see it, you have two options:
1) Give up on the idea.
2) Do it without the factor of money and hope for the best. But with the advent of open media technology such as Youtube (whereon some proud parent would inevitably post the whole thing - you even mention the catastrophic idea that "ideally it would be seen beyond the school to show what this population is capable of"), you're taking a big and pointless risk of having it come back to bite you. Big time.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 1:17 PM on April 18, 2007
Response by poster: also, i should add, the hope is to perhaps do more movies in the future, with other classes.
if no clips from the actual film were used, would that make a difference?
also, i may have been unclear, but there will only be less than a minute total probably of video from the actual film, the rest of the 30 minutes will be shot by the class.
also, if it were just given away and not sold, would that matter? no money ever changing hands?
thanks a lot so far, great info!
posted by annoyance at 1:26 PM on April 18, 2007
if no clips from the actual film were used, would that make a difference?
also, i may have been unclear, but there will only be less than a minute total probably of video from the actual film, the rest of the 30 minutes will be shot by the class.
also, if it were just given away and not sold, would that matter? no money ever changing hands?
thanks a lot so far, great info!
posted by annoyance at 1:26 PM on April 18, 2007
You're running into many complications here.
1. My understanding is that academic "fair use" does not apply to performances.
2. Selling a DVD of the performance that includes other peoples work (songs, clips) is a pretty flagrant violation of someone else's copyright.
3. Simply playing a song is one thing; synching it to video is another.
4. You can try to call the licensing department at Columbia. Better yet, write them a letter. Unfortunately, people at labels are constantly scrambling around, and they might not get back to you.
Actually, your best bet is to call up ASCAP or BMI and explain to them your situation. Skip the DVD part, and tell them you are intersted in using some of the material for a school play. They should be able to advise you, and maybe get you intouch with somebody at Columbia.
posted by phaedon at 1:28 PM on April 18, 2007
1. My understanding is that academic "fair use" does not apply to performances.
2. Selling a DVD of the performance that includes other peoples work (songs, clips) is a pretty flagrant violation of someone else's copyright.
3. Simply playing a song is one thing; synching it to video is another.
4. You can try to call the licensing department at Columbia. Better yet, write them a letter. Unfortunately, people at labels are constantly scrambling around, and they might not get back to you.
Actually, your best bet is to call up ASCAP or BMI and explain to them your situation. Skip the DVD part, and tell them you are intersted in using some of the material for a school play. They should be able to advise you, and maybe get you intouch with somebody at Columbia.
posted by phaedon at 1:28 PM on April 18, 2007
The source material for the movie is the play. Columbia would have secured a license from the play's copyright holders, for the movie rights. You'd need the play performance rights, plus video license for the movie clips, plus sync licenses for the movie's songs. I'm not sure how you'd secure the latter two, but start with submitting a license request for the original play's book and music. Let them know the rest you're interested in, and they should be able to point you to the correct licensing agencies. Licensing is routine, so as long as you're dealing with an agency and you understand everything in the standard contract, you probably won't need to hire a lawyer.
Although there is a copyright "fair use" defense for educational purposes, it sounds like your school's motive on this project would be entertainment more than coursework. Once you gasp at the combined fees, you may want to re-orient your plan to make it more affordable. Would performing just the play and its score be good enough? Could you teach the lyrics or "book" as part of an course analysis rather than for a public production and DVD? Etc.
Don't do this without a license. Annie is still running and touring to this day. There's a lot of money in that collective pot, and a lot of powerful copyright holders you'd risk pissing off. If you just wanted to perform a couple scenes from the play in front of a 30 parents, eh no big deal. But infringing on multiple rights, performing publicly, charging money even if it's not a net profit...oooh boy that's a much bigger gamble.
posted by nakedcodemonkey at 1:30 PM on April 18, 2007
Although there is a copyright "fair use" defense for educational purposes, it sounds like your school's motive on this project would be entertainment more than coursework. Once you gasp at the combined fees, you may want to re-orient your plan to make it more affordable. Would performing just the play and its score be good enough? Could you teach the lyrics or "book" as part of an course analysis rather than for a public production and DVD? Etc.
Don't do this without a license. Annie is still running and touring to this day. There's a lot of money in that collective pot, and a lot of powerful copyright holders you'd risk pissing off. If you just wanted to perform a couple scenes from the play in front of a 30 parents, eh no big deal. But infringing on multiple rights, performing publicly, charging money even if it's not a net profit...oooh boy that's a much bigger gamble.
posted by nakedcodemonkey at 1:30 PM on April 18, 2007
i realize the length does not matter really, but that they are short might
I wouldn't count on any length being short enough to avoid trouble if Columbia elected to sue. The US courts have hammered rappers for copyright infringment over unlicensed samples as short as 3 notes.
posted by nakedcodemonkey at 1:41 PM on April 18, 2007
I wouldn't count on any length being short enough to avoid trouble if Columbia elected to sue. The US courts have hammered rappers for copyright infringment over unlicensed samples as short as 3 notes.
posted by nakedcodemonkey at 1:41 PM on April 18, 2007
RIAA aside, I can't imagine any corporation or organization would be cruel enough to make an issue out of this, espeically given the need to sample based on the uniqueness of the situation. Both my parents were, and my wife is, a teacher, and I can tell you this sort of thing is done all the time. Teachers already have enough paperwork. I say don't worry about it, as long as you're not charging for anything.
Let us know when this hits youtube!
posted by M.C. Lo-Carb! at 1:43 PM on April 18, 2007
Let us know when this hits youtube!
posted by M.C. Lo-Carb! at 1:43 PM on April 18, 2007
The fact that you're doing it with disabled kids, for a non-profit, in order to raise money for a good cause, doesn't matter a bit, at least as far as copyright law (and probably Columbia Pictures) is concerned.
You could start by sending a letter to their licensing office. See their rights website to get started. However, they might flat-out refuse to let you use clips of the film and/or dialogue, or they might make it prohibitively expensive, either because they're greedy, or because they want to refuse but don't want to actually say they're refusing.
It's probably going to be a lot easier to get the rights to the original theatrical production of Annie -- the 1977/78 Broadway one -- a lot of community theaters (legitimately) do that, so the rights can't be too expensive. If the dialogue is the same in the Broadway script and in the '82 movie, you can just use the dialogue and say it's from the original script (which I assume Sony/Columbia licensed in order to make the movie). But if the dialogue you want to use is only in the movie, you're hosed and back to begging Sony again.
My overall advice is get the Broadway rights from whoever typically licenses them for community-theater productions; when you arrange that, you can also discuss things like DVDs. I suspect they're going to tell you that you can't do that, or they're going to charge you ridiculous amounts of money, to the point where it's not worth bothering. (Although if you're discreet about it, a lot of community theaters videotape performances for the cast and their families and I think this is borderline legitimate, since it's documentary in nature and not for sale.)
To really do what it seems like you want to -- do a production which you can then successfully monetize, in various media and forms, including DVD -- you need an original script. The people who license Broadway scripts, and certainly the movie production companies, are going to charge you rapaciously for the privilege of using their content.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:53 PM on April 18, 2007
You could start by sending a letter to their licensing office. See their rights website to get started. However, they might flat-out refuse to let you use clips of the film and/or dialogue, or they might make it prohibitively expensive, either because they're greedy, or because they want to refuse but don't want to actually say they're refusing.
It's probably going to be a lot easier to get the rights to the original theatrical production of Annie -- the 1977/78 Broadway one -- a lot of community theaters (legitimately) do that, so the rights can't be too expensive. If the dialogue is the same in the Broadway script and in the '82 movie, you can just use the dialogue and say it's from the original script (which I assume Sony/Columbia licensed in order to make the movie). But if the dialogue you want to use is only in the movie, you're hosed and back to begging Sony again.
My overall advice is get the Broadway rights from whoever typically licenses them for community-theater productions; when you arrange that, you can also discuss things like DVDs. I suspect they're going to tell you that you can't do that, or they're going to charge you ridiculous amounts of money, to the point where it's not worth bothering. (Although if you're discreet about it, a lot of community theaters videotape performances for the cast and their families and I think this is borderline legitimate, since it's documentary in nature and not for sale.)
To really do what it seems like you want to -- do a production which you can then successfully monetize, in various media and forms, including DVD -- you need an original script. The people who license Broadway scripts, and certainly the movie production companies, are going to charge you rapaciously for the privilege of using their content.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:53 PM on April 18, 2007
I agree it is best to run this through the people who own the copyright of the script. Annie is licensed by Music Theatre International. Music Theatre International does a "Junior" version of Annie, which my Dad put on at his middle school a few years ago. He said it was $450, although he believes it is now $475. Because you're performing it for a school, you can do unlimited performances. Not sure how that would relate to it being videotaped and/or sold, but I'm sure someone at MTI could answer your questions about that.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:05 PM on April 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:05 PM on April 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: the problem with getting the Broadway rights is that these kids are non-verbal, there is no way to have them do the songs or dialogue. perhaps someone else (staff, other students) can do that somehow but the hope is to use the music at least.
the goal really is to let these kids have a high school production and let their parents have something they can show their family and friends of what their child is capable of. money is not a goal at all. we are not raising money either, just trying to cover the dvd costs, which possibly could just be paid for by the school and not sold if that is an issue.
thanks again all.
posted by annoyance at 2:07 PM on April 18, 2007
the goal really is to let these kids have a high school production and let their parents have something they can show their family and friends of what their child is capable of. money is not a goal at all. we are not raising money either, just trying to cover the dvd costs, which possibly could just be paid for by the school and not sold if that is an issue.
thanks again all.
posted by annoyance at 2:07 PM on April 18, 2007
Here's a good set of guidelines for using copyrighted materials in education. Should give you some ideas about how to shape this idea into something can be done without licenses or fewer of them.
posted by nakedcodemonkey at 7:04 PM on April 18, 2007
posted by nakedcodemonkey at 7:04 PM on April 18, 2007
Just do it - don't tell any of these big fancy rights-holders. If by some chance they catch on and come after you, go to the press immediately, and I bet they'll lay off.
posted by reklaw at 3:56 AM on April 19, 2007
posted by reklaw at 3:56 AM on April 19, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:14 PM on April 18, 2007