PC / iTunes for Retail Store?
March 23, 2007 8:40 AM Subscribe
Is it possible to run large speakers from a PC, or do I need to go through an amp? Looking to play music in-store using iTunes rather than a CD player.
I manage a retail store where we sell a range of approx 40 CDs. In our existing store we have an ancient 25-disc changer which works well for playing music in the store, but it seems that these days you can either get single disc players or 500 disc libraries.
(The changer also allows us to play a specific disc for a customer but if they want to hear one of the discs that we don't have in there, it's a pain to switch discs for them.)
For a new location, I'd ideally like to run iTunes on the office computer, import the 40CDs that we have and set it on shuffle. This also makes it easy to play any disc/track that a customer may want to hear.
Are there speakers available that will work with a PC but that are large enough to be audible (background music, I'm not looking to entertain people) in an 800 sq ft store?
Looking at Best Buy & Futureshop all I see are desktop speakers. Are there larger speakers available, or do I need to go from the PC to an amp and then to larger speakers? If so, any suggestions for cost-effective solutions?
(And yes, we pay SOCAN for the rights to play music in the store!)
I manage a retail store where we sell a range of approx 40 CDs. In our existing store we have an ancient 25-disc changer which works well for playing music in the store, but it seems that these days you can either get single disc players or 500 disc libraries.
(The changer also allows us to play a specific disc for a customer but if they want to hear one of the discs that we don't have in there, it's a pain to switch discs for them.)
For a new location, I'd ideally like to run iTunes on the office computer, import the 40CDs that we have and set it on shuffle. This also makes it easy to play any disc/track that a customer may want to hear.
Are there speakers available that will work with a PC but that are large enough to be audible (background music, I'm not looking to entertain people) in an 800 sq ft store?
Looking at Best Buy & Futureshop all I see are desktop speakers. Are there larger speakers available, or do I need to go from the PC to an amp and then to larger speakers? If so, any suggestions for cost-effective solutions?
(And yes, we pay SOCAN for the rights to play music in the store!)
90% of the retail environments I see (especially smaller independent locations) are playing their music through simple all-in-one home stereo type setups. (like this, or this) (hope those links stay live)
You just run from your line out into the RCA ins on the stereo unit. (using a cable like this)
This solution would make any audiophile cringe, but they seem to work for many retail locations. (and it's pretty cheap)
posted by davey_darling at 9:13 AM on March 23, 2007
You just run from your line out into the RCA ins on the stereo unit. (using a cable like this)
This solution would make any audiophile cringe, but they seem to work for many retail locations. (and it's pretty cheap)
posted by davey_darling at 9:13 AM on March 23, 2007
You need an amp, but it's not really anything that complicated or special.
If the CD changer you use is of the "component" variety (it's not a single monolithic unit that includes the CD player, tape deck, and FM tuner), you have an amp already. In a stack of equipment, it's probably included in the device that has the radio in it, and it's probably labeled "tuner."
I'd take a look around and get a good inventory of your equipment. It's probably possible, if you have separate stereo components, to just take the CD changer out and put the computer into the chain, plugging into wherever the CD player plugged into. This avoids having to deal with getting a new amplifier for your existing speakers (which requires you to know what the impedance and power handling of the speakers are).
Alternately, any reasonably high-end stereo will probably have a "line input," which is what you want to attach your computer.
You'll probably need a 1/8" minijack to RCA cable to actually get things talking to each other; Radioshack is your friend here.
When you get it working, I'd leave the volume on the computer set at around 80-90% (rather than jacked all the way up -- although turn the iTunes volume all the way up) and then adjust your downstream volume levels appropriately. If you find once you have this set up that there is a lot of hiss or buzz, make sure the computer and amp (and any other equipment) are all plugged into the same electrical circuit, and minimize the length of cable runs (and keep the audio cable away from power cables).
Anyway, I think the Squeezebox might be overkill for you, at least initially; try a $6 cable and if that doesn't work, it's easy to go up from there.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:15 AM on March 23, 2007
If the CD changer you use is of the "component" variety (it's not a single monolithic unit that includes the CD player, tape deck, and FM tuner), you have an amp already. In a stack of equipment, it's probably included in the device that has the radio in it, and it's probably labeled "tuner."
I'd take a look around and get a good inventory of your equipment. It's probably possible, if you have separate stereo components, to just take the CD changer out and put the computer into the chain, plugging into wherever the CD player plugged into. This avoids having to deal with getting a new amplifier for your existing speakers (which requires you to know what the impedance and power handling of the speakers are).
Alternately, any reasonably high-end stereo will probably have a "line input," which is what you want to attach your computer.
You'll probably need a 1/8" minijack to RCA cable to actually get things talking to each other; Radioshack is your friend here.
When you get it working, I'd leave the volume on the computer set at around 80-90% (rather than jacked all the way up -- although turn the iTunes volume all the way up) and then adjust your downstream volume levels appropriately. If you find once you have this set up that there is a lot of hiss or buzz, make sure the computer and amp (and any other equipment) are all plugged into the same electrical circuit, and minimize the length of cable runs (and keep the audio cable away from power cables).
Anyway, I think the Squeezebox might be overkill for you, at least initially; try a $6 cable and if that doesn't work, it's easy to go up from there.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:15 AM on March 23, 2007
For best quality, you should move as much as possible away from the computer. That means sending a network signal out of the computer, and generating the sound signal elsewhere.
If you decide to go the separate amplifier route, I would disagree with this statement. If your computer's sound card supports digital audio out, buy an amplifier that supports digital audio in. There would be no loss of audio quality going this route.
Also, as far as I know, the Squeezebox doesn't support digital audio. You would be sending a digital signal to the Squeezebox, which would convert it to an analog signal which you would send to an amplifier. If you're going to send an analog signal to the amplifier, you might as well send it directly from the PC. Adding another device to the chain just allows for one more component that could add noise to the signal.
posted by hootch at 9:19 AM on March 23, 2007
If you decide to go the separate amplifier route, I would disagree with this statement. If your computer's sound card supports digital audio out, buy an amplifier that supports digital audio in. There would be no loss of audio quality going this route.
Also, as far as I know, the Squeezebox doesn't support digital audio. You would be sending a digital signal to the Squeezebox, which would convert it to an analog signal which you would send to an amplifier. If you're going to send an analog signal to the amplifier, you might as well send it directly from the PC. Adding another device to the chain just allows for one more component that could add noise to the signal.
posted by hootch at 9:19 AM on March 23, 2007
You need an amp
You can also go the "powered speaker" route. Which basically means the amp is inside the speaker. They're more expensive, but there are plenty of good options out there.
posted by phaedon at 9:30 AM on March 23, 2007
You can also go the "powered speaker" route. Which basically means the amp is inside the speaker. They're more expensive, but there are plenty of good options out there.
posted by phaedon at 9:30 AM on March 23, 2007
First, realize that PC sound isn't very good. If you have the usual motherboard sound thing going on, it's unusual for the quality to be all that great. Customers may notice this.
Once you have your source, something like this Onkyo home theater setup might work well. Normally, for music, I'd suggest just stereo speakers, so you get better quality. But the Onkyo HTIBs sound pretty good, and the multiple speakers would probably be a net benefit for you. You can connect your sound source to the amp, and then set it to 'all channel stereo' -- it will play the left channel on three speakers and the right channel on three speakers, so you can have three separate listening stations scattered around the store. (you'll have to put the sub fairly central, but in only 800 sq ft, I think this will work pretty well.)
If you don't like the sound quality from the PC, the suggestion of adding a Squeezebox is a very good one. Keep in mind that they're fairly pricey ($300), but they sound OUTSTANDING, and the ability to be controlled with a remote could come in very handy. Your sales staff can just flip with the remote to any song in your collection, without needing to touch the PC. As you grow, you can potentially add more Squeezeboxes and run them all from the same server, so they all see the same music collection. They can play in sync or separately, at your option.
If you want to use iTunes, I'd suggest the HTIB and an Airport Express with an optical-out cable. The AE does perfect lossless sound via iTunes, and will sound really great. However, with an AE, you have to control the music with a computer... you can't use the cool remote like with a Squeezebox.
When you're ripping your music, remember to rip to either FLAC (for the Squeezebox) or Apple Lossless (for iTunes). Any lossless format is fine, but those two are the easiest to deal with.
posted by Malor at 9:32 AM on March 23, 2007
Once you have your source, something like this Onkyo home theater setup might work well. Normally, for music, I'd suggest just stereo speakers, so you get better quality. But the Onkyo HTIBs sound pretty good, and the multiple speakers would probably be a net benefit for you. You can connect your sound source to the amp, and then set it to 'all channel stereo' -- it will play the left channel on three speakers and the right channel on three speakers, so you can have three separate listening stations scattered around the store. (you'll have to put the sub fairly central, but in only 800 sq ft, I think this will work pretty well.)
If you don't like the sound quality from the PC, the suggestion of adding a Squeezebox is a very good one. Keep in mind that they're fairly pricey ($300), but they sound OUTSTANDING, and the ability to be controlled with a remote could come in very handy. Your sales staff can just flip with the remote to any song in your collection, without needing to touch the PC. As you grow, you can potentially add more Squeezeboxes and run them all from the same server, so they all see the same music collection. They can play in sync or separately, at your option.
If you want to use iTunes, I'd suggest the HTIB and an Airport Express with an optical-out cable. The AE does perfect lossless sound via iTunes, and will sound really great. However, with an AE, you have to control the music with a computer... you can't use the cool remote like with a Squeezebox.
When you're ripping your music, remember to rip to either FLAC (for the Squeezebox) or Apple Lossless (for iTunes). Any lossless format is fine, but those two are the easiest to deal with.
posted by Malor at 9:32 AM on March 23, 2007
hootch: the Squeezebox will do both digital and analog. It has a MUCH better DAC than most soundcards, so having it send the analog signal is vastly preferable to doing it from most computers.
posted by Malor at 9:33 AM on March 23, 2007
posted by Malor at 9:33 AM on March 23, 2007
Some simple powered PC speakers should suffice. These look like they could fill a store with music.
posted by caddis at 9:35 AM on March 23, 2007
posted by caddis at 9:35 AM on March 23, 2007
Sigh, I answered hootch too soon. Adding more:
Even if the PC has digital out, getting true lossless sound from Windows is difficult. Most soundcards on Windows do a hardware resample to 48khz; some do it better than others, but almost all of them do, and mangle the sound up pretty good in the process. Windows also damages the signal somewhat itself, although it's relatively minimal in comparison.
To get real lossless sound from a PC, you need a soundcard that will support it in hardware(the Chaintech AV-710 will work fine, and it's like $25), and you need to drive it in "kernel streaming" or "ASIO" mode. I only know two players that will do that: Foobar and Winamp. iTunes will not.
Either a Squeezebox or an Airport Express will allow him to have true lossless, bitperfect output to the receiver. In both cases, he's completely bypassing Windows audio. If he's driving an amp, rather than a receiver, he'll be using the DAC in those devices.
I haven't experimented with the AE's analog out, but the DAC in the Squeezebox is just lovely. It's an older Burr-Brown part, not very expensive anymore, but it sounds wonderful.
posted by Malor at 9:43 AM on March 23, 2007
Even if the PC has digital out, getting true lossless sound from Windows is difficult. Most soundcards on Windows do a hardware resample to 48khz; some do it better than others, but almost all of them do, and mangle the sound up pretty good in the process. Windows also damages the signal somewhat itself, although it's relatively minimal in comparison.
To get real lossless sound from a PC, you need a soundcard that will support it in hardware(the Chaintech AV-710 will work fine, and it's like $25), and you need to drive it in "kernel streaming" or "ASIO" mode. I only know two players that will do that: Foobar and Winamp. iTunes will not.
Either a Squeezebox or an Airport Express will allow him to have true lossless, bitperfect output to the receiver. In both cases, he's completely bypassing Windows audio. If he's driving an amp, rather than a receiver, he'll be using the DAC in those devices.
I haven't experimented with the AE's analog out, but the DAC in the Squeezebox is just lovely. It's an older Burr-Brown part, not very expensive anymore, but it sounds wonderful.
posted by Malor at 9:43 AM on March 23, 2007
Are there larger speakers available, or do I need to go from the PC to an amp and then to larger speakers? If so, any suggestions for cost-effective solutions?
Yes, I'd recommend using an amp and regular stereo speakers.
If you're more concerned about cost than audiophile sound quality, I'd suggest looking on Craigslist for used equipment. See this post on rec.audio.misc: There is an awful lot of old stereo equipment around that is just waiting to be hooked up to your computer.
posted by russilwvong at 11:37 AM on March 23, 2007
Yes, I'd recommend using an amp and regular stereo speakers.
If you're more concerned about cost than audiophile sound quality, I'd suggest looking on Craigslist for used equipment. See this post on rec.audio.misc: There is an awful lot of old stereo equipment around that is just waiting to be hooked up to your computer.
posted by russilwvong at 11:37 AM on March 23, 2007
At my store, we'll be using a HiFi system with USB + SD/MMC/MS/CF support. That way, we just load up a flash drive or memory card full of audio and the stereo does the rest itself. It's easy for staff to use and delivers great quality sound.
I'm unsure of the spec, make and model as I've only seen them demoed but it will arrive on Tuesday so I might be able to advise on this route further at the time.
posted by TheAspiringCatapult at 11:58 AM on March 23, 2007
I'm unsure of the spec, make and model as I've only seen them demoed but it will arrive on Tuesday so I might be able to advise on this route further at the time.
posted by TheAspiringCatapult at 11:58 AM on March 23, 2007
I don't see how you need some of the studio-quality recommendations above to suit your needs (digital output/ASIO drivers/etc).
And I fervently disagree with Malor: PC sound isn't bad. You're not doing multitrack recording, you don't need low-latency monitoring. Playing a bunch of songs in shuffle mode on iTunes (or Windows Media player, which can rip songs in lossless WMA format) is not a taxing mode of use for a computer.
If you are happy with the rest of your system as it is right now, and only want to substitute a computer playing on Random for your existing CD changer, much of the above advice is sheer overkill. Just get a good mini-RCA adapter, and if you don't like the sound there (headphone output isn't the same as RCA line output, which may degrade the sound quality), step up (one notch, not some expensive studio card) to a sound card with RCA output. It's a simple install and you won't have to get any specialized amplification equipment, needlessly duplicating what you have.
And remember when you're capturing all of your discs to do so in a lossless format so it has the same audio quality as the CDs you're selling.
posted by chimaera at 2:45 PM on March 23, 2007
And I fervently disagree with Malor: PC sound isn't bad. You're not doing multitrack recording, you don't need low-latency monitoring. Playing a bunch of songs in shuffle mode on iTunes (or Windows Media player, which can rip songs in lossless WMA format) is not a taxing mode of use for a computer.
If you are happy with the rest of your system as it is right now, and only want to substitute a computer playing on Random for your existing CD changer, much of the above advice is sheer overkill. Just get a good mini-RCA adapter, and if you don't like the sound there (headphone output isn't the same as RCA line output, which may degrade the sound quality), step up (one notch, not some expensive studio card) to a sound card with RCA output. It's a simple install and you won't have to get any specialized amplification equipment, needlessly duplicating what you have.
And remember when you're capturing all of your discs to do so in a lossless format so it has the same audio quality as the CDs you're selling.
posted by chimaera at 2:45 PM on March 23, 2007
We use these 30 watt powered speakers, which sound great, would fill a small store, and are reasonably priced. We run the music from a laptop. I got them on ebay for under $50.
posted by theora55 at 3:23 PM on March 23, 2007
posted by theora55 at 3:23 PM on March 23, 2007
chimaera: Remember, this is for demoing music. You may not be able to hear the crappy 48khz resample that most PCs do, but there are definitely people that can. I bought a set of expensive speakers I thought weren't very good for music, and suffered with them for eight or ten months, before I figured out purely by accident that it was the 48khz resample that was making my music suck so bad through them. (this was an Audigy 2NX USB soundcard, which does a particularly awful resample.)
If you did an A/B test between lossless and standard Windows Audio, you'd probably hear it... in some cases, it is VERY noticeable. With the 2NX, it's like someone throwing a towel over the speakers.
His goal is to sell music, so he should present it as well as possible, no?
posted by Malor at 4:04 PM on March 23, 2007
If you did an A/B test between lossless and standard Windows Audio, you'd probably hear it... in some cases, it is VERY noticeable. With the 2NX, it's like someone throwing a towel over the speakers.
His goal is to sell music, so he should present it as well as possible, no?
posted by Malor at 4:04 PM on March 23, 2007
One question for ya:
1) How far away is the office computer from the cd disc changer?
I ask because your disc changer likely has an amp with a high chance of having auxiliary (RCA) inputs. In that case, just go to radioshack (or your preferred electronics/audiophile shop) and buy a "Y" cable. In case you don't know what a "Y" cable is, it's going to have two RCA jacks (left and right speaker channels) which plug into the aux/rca inputs on back of your AMP/cd player and the other end is going to be a 1/8th (headphone) jack that you can plug into your computer. If the computer is a bit far, you can try splicing the y cable with some speaker cable lying around, taping them up of course with electrical tape.
posted by nataaniinez at 4:50 PM on March 23, 2007
1) How far away is the office computer from the cd disc changer?
I ask because your disc changer likely has an amp with a high chance of having auxiliary (RCA) inputs. In that case, just go to radioshack (or your preferred electronics/audiophile shop) and buy a "Y" cable. In case you don't know what a "Y" cable is, it's going to have two RCA jacks (left and right speaker channels) which plug into the aux/rca inputs on back of your AMP/cd player and the other end is going to be a 1/8th (headphone) jack that you can plug into your computer. If the computer is a bit far, you can try splicing the y cable with some speaker cable lying around, taping them up of course with electrical tape.
posted by nataaniinez at 4:50 PM on March 23, 2007
forgot to add a link to what I'm talking about, heh:
Tiny Url link to Y cable on radioshack website
posted by nataaniinez at 4:57 PM on March 23, 2007
Tiny Url link to Y cable on radioshack website
posted by nataaniinez at 4:57 PM on March 23, 2007
Response by poster: Thanks for all the responses. To clear up a few questions...
This is for a new store, so the 25-disc changer/amp combo is staying at the existing store.
Sound quality really doesn't matter - this is a relatively small range of music and a very small part of our overall business. I'm just trying to come up with an cheap solution (we're a non-profit) that easily allows us to play any one of the 40 discs that a customer wants to hear ... and they usually only want to hear the first 30 seconds or so of 2-3 tracks.
At this point I'm thinking I'll pick up a used amp/speakers from a thrift store coupled with the cables mentioned and see how it works. Though I will look at the powered speakers option as well. The main issue actually will be whether to run it from the office computer or the point-of-sale computer. I don't want to interrupt sales to change music, but the office is likely to be somewhat inaccessible from the store (don't know for sure - it's still being built!).
While the Squeezebox solution does sound great, it's really beyond our price range.
posted by valleys at 8:56 AM on March 24, 2007
This is for a new store, so the 25-disc changer/amp combo is staying at the existing store.
Sound quality really doesn't matter - this is a relatively small range of music and a very small part of our overall business. I'm just trying to come up with an cheap solution (we're a non-profit) that easily allows us to play any one of the 40 discs that a customer wants to hear ... and they usually only want to hear the first 30 seconds or so of 2-3 tracks.
At this point I'm thinking I'll pick up a used amp/speakers from a thrift store coupled with the cables mentioned and see how it works. Though I will look at the powered speakers option as well. The main issue actually will be whether to run it from the office computer or the point-of-sale computer. I don't want to interrupt sales to change music, but the office is likely to be somewhat inaccessible from the store (don't know for sure - it's still being built!).
While the Squeezebox solution does sound great, it's really beyond our price range.
posted by valleys at 8:56 AM on March 24, 2007
A Sonic Impact T-Amp is an inexpensive device that lets you use regular stereo speakers (non-computer speakers) with a computer.
posted by lsemel at 9:06 PM on March 24, 2007
posted by lsemel at 9:06 PM on March 24, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
You have many different options, depending on your budget and the level of sound quality you need. If you're selling the music, I'd think you'd want something of decent quality (in addition to which you can write it off as a business expense).
For best quality, you should move as much as possible away from the computer. That means sending a network signal out of the computer, and generating the sound signal elsewhere. I highly recommend the Squeezebox from Slimdevices, which is $300:
http://www.slimdevices.com/pi_squeezebox.html?
(That can be used with iTunes, by the way, as long as you use the right format -- e.g. your music isn't DRM protected like iTunes Music Store downloads, which it won't be if you're using your own CDs).
Feed that into a decent integrated amp and speakers, and you can get quite good quality sound on a moderate budget.
posted by mikeand1 at 8:50 AM on March 23, 2007