Is it legal (if assholish) to demand reimbursement to attend your mother's death?
March 5, 2007 8:42 PM Subscribe
WTF filter: My grandmother died in November. My uncle flew out to "help out"; he sifted through the belongings, and shipped a bunch of furniture back to his home in another province. Recently he presented my mom with a "bill" for all the expenses he incurred during the process of attending my grandmother's death, expecting to be paid back out of the estate, even though my grandfather (demented and unaware of everyday reality) is in a care facility, still living on that money. What now?
Tallied up on my uncle's "bill": his flight, the hotel in the stopover city, the rental car, the gas, his meals, and the cost of shipping the things he inherited back to himself via a courier.
My mother housed my grandparents for five years with no financial support from her brother, and absorbed many many many of their expenses over the years they lived there. My uncle never contributed financially to their upkeep (despite requests to do so) and his yearly visits were paid for by my grandmother - he was her favourite by far.
My uncle is well employed and owns a home, has two sons who went through university on my grandparents' dime, and has a generous pension - he's not hurting financially. My mother wants to "pay out" my uncle's "bill" from the estate so that she can "put it behind them" (he has sent three copies of the "bill" so far, each time reminding her to pay it out) but I wonder if it doesn't set a legal precident.
(This is completely beside the fact that my uncle has obviously lost the plot entirely - who asks to be repaid when they attend their own mother's death? Especially when they can well afford it?)
This is the latest in a long series of weird money things with my uncle over the years (for example he wanted me to pay for him to attend my wedding because he'd be 'helping out' with my grandparents) and I just don't want my mom to end up compromised if my grandparents' estate runs out of money before my grandfather dies and somehow my mom gets stuck with supporting his costs month to month (large $$ for his care in a home, now) because my uncle never contributed and indeed helped drain the estate with his visits and the associated expenses. My mom earns less than my uncle and is definitely not in a position to support my grandfather at his current level of care, and bringing him back to her home is not an option at this stage.
What now? The gloves are basically off in terms of salvaging the relationship with my uncle - this was the final straw after years of truly crazy selfish behaviour, so now we're just looking to mitigate against actual legal wrangling in the future.
Suggestions - legal stances and interpersonal negotiations strategies to prevent legal battles - are solicited.
Tallied up on my uncle's "bill": his flight, the hotel in the stopover city, the rental car, the gas, his meals, and the cost of shipping the things he inherited back to himself via a courier.
My mother housed my grandparents for five years with no financial support from her brother, and absorbed many many many of their expenses over the years they lived there. My uncle never contributed financially to their upkeep (despite requests to do so) and his yearly visits were paid for by my grandmother - he was her favourite by far.
My uncle is well employed and owns a home, has two sons who went through university on my grandparents' dime, and has a generous pension - he's not hurting financially. My mother wants to "pay out" my uncle's "bill" from the estate so that she can "put it behind them" (he has sent three copies of the "bill" so far, each time reminding her to pay it out) but I wonder if it doesn't set a legal precident.
(This is completely beside the fact that my uncle has obviously lost the plot entirely - who asks to be repaid when they attend their own mother's death? Especially when they can well afford it?)
This is the latest in a long series of weird money things with my uncle over the years (for example he wanted me to pay for him to attend my wedding because he'd be 'helping out' with my grandparents) and I just don't want my mom to end up compromised if my grandparents' estate runs out of money before my grandfather dies and somehow my mom gets stuck with supporting his costs month to month (large $$ for his care in a home, now) because my uncle never contributed and indeed helped drain the estate with his visits and the associated expenses. My mom earns less than my uncle and is definitely not in a position to support my grandfather at his current level of care, and bringing him back to her home is not an option at this stage.
What now? The gloves are basically off in terms of salvaging the relationship with my uncle - this was the final straw after years of truly crazy selfish behaviour, so now we're just looking to mitigate against actual legal wrangling in the future.
Suggestions - legal stances and interpersonal negotiations strategies to prevent legal battles - are solicited.
After the funeral comes the fight for the spoils that divides families for generations. You know that you need a lawyer, so get one already.
posted by LarryC at 8:55 PM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by LarryC at 8:55 PM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
Zeroth question: where is this taking place? Estate law varies immensely by country. Your profile would suggest Canada. My knowledge is limited mostly to U.S. law, so treat what follows with the appropriate caution. (Both Canadian and U.S. law are rooted in the English common law of estates and in the Wills Act, so there are some similarities.)
First question: When your grandmother died, who was the administrator of the estate? (If she had a will, that would be the executor.) If that's your uncle, then those sorts of expenses might in fact be things he's entitled to claim reimbursement for (although the usual procedure is to petition the probate court for reimbursement, not to bill another beneficiary of the will). If not, then unless your mother agreed to pay him, he doesn't have much of a legal starting point.
This is not legal advice, etc.
posted by grimmelm at 8:57 PM on March 5, 2007
First question: When your grandmother died, who was the administrator of the estate? (If she had a will, that would be the executor.) If that's your uncle, then those sorts of expenses might in fact be things he's entitled to claim reimbursement for (although the usual procedure is to petition the probate court for reimbursement, not to bill another beneficiary of the will). If not, then unless your mother agreed to pay him, he doesn't have much of a legal starting point.
This is not legal advice, etc.
posted by grimmelm at 8:57 PM on March 5, 2007
Did your grandmother have a will? It is your mothers obligation to follow it if there is one. Tell Uncle Entitled that the will does not provide for HIS expenses. When I first started reading, I thought you were saying that he paid for the funeral etc. Blame it on grandmothers estate, it only provided for her expenses, the rest goes to grandfather. Your mom needs to stand up to him, it's ridiculous that he expects to be reimbursed.
posted by lee at 9:00 PM on March 5, 2007
posted by lee at 9:00 PM on March 5, 2007
I'm so sorry for the loss of your grandmother, and doubly sorry that your uncle is a class-A jerk.
IANAL - but your mom certainly doesn't have to pay your uncle's ridiculous bill. If she wanted to, she could play his game right back at him -- add up five years' worth of care for her parents, figure his "share" and present her bill to him. But that would be petty.
The main thing you want to know is, (1) is there a will and (2) are your grandparent's wishes being honored? That is all the law needs from your family. If your uncle is named executor, that's another matter entirely because he's a selfish prig. However it would be the go-to document if he decides to start making deductions from your mother in his favor.
posted by brain cloud at 9:01 PM on March 5, 2007
IANAL - but your mom certainly doesn't have to pay your uncle's ridiculous bill. If she wanted to, she could play his game right back at him -- add up five years' worth of care for her parents, figure his "share" and present her bill to him. But that would be petty.
The main thing you want to know is, (1) is there a will and (2) are your grandparent's wishes being honored? That is all the law needs from your family. If your uncle is named executor, that's another matter entirely because he's a selfish prig. However it would be the go-to document if he decides to start making deductions from your mother in his favor.
posted by brain cloud at 9:01 PM on March 5, 2007
It is legal if she specifically left him money, but he just gets what she left, not x amount plus expenses. Did your grandmother have a will? It is your mothers obligation to follow it if there is one. Tell Uncle Entitled that the will does not provide for HIS expenses. When I first started reading, I thought you were saying that he paid for the funeral etc. Blame it on grandmothers estate, it only provided for her expenses, the rest goes to grandfather. Your mom needs to stand up to him, it's ridiculous that he expects to be reimbursed.
posted by lee at 9:03 PM on March 5, 2007
posted by lee at 9:03 PM on March 5, 2007
... who asks to be repaid when they attend their own mother's death? Especially when they can well afford it?
I thought my family was the only one where this happened.
My family went through a similar scenario when my grandmother died a couple of years ago ... and my aunt made the exact same demands that your uncle did.
In our case, the demands were even more extravagant, in that my aunt demanded to be reimbursed for lost wages for weeks she spent with my grandmother (i.e., her own mother) in her final illness, plus gas and mileage expenses for traveling there, etc. It was absolutely absurd.
My mother and aunt (my grandmother's only children) were the estate's co-executors, and since my mother vigorously contested my aunt being reimbursed in this way, the probate court had to rule on these reimbursements my aunt requested. The court denied them. It was really ugly.
posted by jayder at 9:05 PM on March 5, 2007
I thought my family was the only one where this happened.
My family went through a similar scenario when my grandmother died a couple of years ago ... and my aunt made the exact same demands that your uncle did.
In our case, the demands were even more extravagant, in that my aunt demanded to be reimbursed for lost wages for weeks she spent with my grandmother (i.e., her own mother) in her final illness, plus gas and mileage expenses for traveling there, etc. It was absolutely absurd.
My mother and aunt (my grandmother's only children) were the estate's co-executors, and since my mother vigorously contested my aunt being reimbursed in this way, the probate court had to rule on these reimbursements my aunt requested. The court denied them. It was really ugly.
posted by jayder at 9:05 PM on March 5, 2007
I'm pretty sure that you owe him nothing at all (and the estate owes him nothing other than what he inherited).
Don't pay it.
Disclaimer: I am neither a lawyer nor a Canadian.
posted by oaf at 9:06 PM on March 5, 2007
Don't pay it.
Disclaimer: I am neither a lawyer nor a Canadian.
posted by oaf at 9:06 PM on March 5, 2007
Response by poster: Yes, this is all taking place in Canada, in British Columbia.
A cousin is the executrix, but my mother is the de facto manager of the estate due to her proximity to my grandfather's current location, and the cousin's distance (and disinterest -- she did not want to be executrix, and is happy to let my mother make the decisions and then she signs off on them). My mother and her brother are the only children of my grandparents, but apart from being a doting son in the form of cards and birthday phone calls, my mother has been the one who has done the day-to-day management of their lives for more than seven years, and my uncle hasn't been a part of the actual support structure.
My grandmother's will stated that various belongings were to be left to various people - my uncle took things that my grandmother designated to him. There was no specific provision in the will to recompense anyone for any of their expenses associated with travel or shipping of said items.
Of course everyone, including the executrix cousin, thinks that my uncle is being unbelievably selfish and crazy. However, my grandmother paid for everything to do with him and their relationship for so long that he seems to approach this reimbursement issue with a profound entitlement... i.e. I don't think it has even occurred to him that he ISN'T entitled to be reimbursed. Hence the concerns about legal implications in the future, and concerns about setting precident now that she's dead.
posted by Mrs Hilksom at 9:11 PM on March 5, 2007
A cousin is the executrix, but my mother is the de facto manager of the estate due to her proximity to my grandfather's current location, and the cousin's distance (and disinterest -- she did not want to be executrix, and is happy to let my mother make the decisions and then she signs off on them). My mother and her brother are the only children of my grandparents, but apart from being a doting son in the form of cards and birthday phone calls, my mother has been the one who has done the day-to-day management of their lives for more than seven years, and my uncle hasn't been a part of the actual support structure.
My grandmother's will stated that various belongings were to be left to various people - my uncle took things that my grandmother designated to him. There was no specific provision in the will to recompense anyone for any of their expenses associated with travel or shipping of said items.
Of course everyone, including the executrix cousin, thinks that my uncle is being unbelievably selfish and crazy. However, my grandmother paid for everything to do with him and their relationship for so long that he seems to approach this reimbursement issue with a profound entitlement... i.e. I don't think it has even occurred to him that he ISN'T entitled to be reimbursed. Hence the concerns about legal implications in the future, and concerns about setting precident now that she's dead.
posted by Mrs Hilksom at 9:11 PM on March 5, 2007
When your grandmother died, who was the administrator of the estate? […] If that's your uncle, then those sorts of expenses might in fact be things he's entitled to claim reimbursement for (although the usual procedure is to petition the probate court for reimbursement, not to bill another beneficiary of the will).
If he's the executor, then wouldn't he be able to pay himself from the estate without involving his sister?
posted by oaf at 9:11 PM on March 5, 2007
If he's the executor, then wouldn't he be able to pay himself from the estate without involving his sister?
posted by oaf at 9:11 PM on March 5, 2007
Hence the concerns about legal implications in the future, and concerns about setting precident now that she's dead.
I don't see exactly what you mean by this. He either gets paid or he doesn't, but if he does, that shouldn't allow him to keep trying to get money, especially once the estate's assets are disbursed.
posted by oaf at 9:15 PM on March 5, 2007
I don't see exactly what you mean by this. He either gets paid or he doesn't, but if he does, that shouldn't allow him to keep trying to get money, especially once the estate's assets are disbursed.
posted by oaf at 9:15 PM on March 5, 2007
Best answer: I don't think it has even occurred to him that he ISN'T entitled to be reimbursed.
Then it's quite simple, really:
Dear Uncle Shameless Jerk,
Sadly, as you are aware, mother passed away on $Date. We will all miss her greatly.
BTW, your free ride is over, sorry.
Love,
Your family.
posted by brain cloud at 9:22 PM on March 5, 2007 [13 favorites]
Then it's quite simple, really:
Dear Uncle Shameless Jerk,
Sadly, as you are aware, mother passed away on $Date. We will all miss her greatly.
BTW, your free ride is over, sorry.
Love,
Your family.
posted by brain cloud at 9:22 PM on March 5, 2007 [13 favorites]
Don't pay him. Your mom and cousin can truthfully say that the will does not provide for it. He gets what he gets. She can informally ask an attorney as well and report that to Uncle. Hopefully, he won't harass your cousin.
posted by lee at 9:22 PM on March 5, 2007
posted by lee at 9:22 PM on March 5, 2007
Response by poster: oaf, so picture this: let's say my grandfather lives on for another few years - he has had a series of strokes and can't speak and it's aware of who is in the room, but he is alive. My uncle comes to visit and expects to be paid back for the visits. If the estate paid for him to attend my grandmother's death, perhaps there is a precident set for him to be paid back every time.
The concern is partially that my grandparents' estate is dwindling - there is really only enough money left for another year or two of my grandfather's current level of care, and then someone else (i.e. my mother and my uncle, together, in theory) would have to support his costs because there is no money left. If my uncle demands recompense for visits and expenses, he directly drains this remaining small amount of money left in the estate, thereby hastening the end of my grandfather's ability to support himself on his savings.
I picture being two years from now and seeing my mother having to sell her house to do the "right" thing and continue to support my grandfather in his care facility, while my uncle walks away into his pensioned sunset, not contributing a dime. In a bizarre nightmare scenario I fear my mother herself would end up paying for my uncle to visit my grandfather once all the money is gone - due to precident. Though that's clearly spiralling into paranoia territory, surely?
posted by Mrs Hilksom at 9:24 PM on March 5, 2007
The concern is partially that my grandparents' estate is dwindling - there is really only enough money left for another year or two of my grandfather's current level of care, and then someone else (i.e. my mother and my uncle, together, in theory) would have to support his costs because there is no money left. If my uncle demands recompense for visits and expenses, he directly drains this remaining small amount of money left in the estate, thereby hastening the end of my grandfather's ability to support himself on his savings.
I picture being two years from now and seeing my mother having to sell her house to do the "right" thing and continue to support my grandfather in his care facility, while my uncle walks away into his pensioned sunset, not contributing a dime. In a bizarre nightmare scenario I fear my mother herself would end up paying for my uncle to visit my grandfather once all the money is gone - due to precident. Though that's clearly spiralling into paranoia territory, surely?
posted by Mrs Hilksom at 9:24 PM on March 5, 2007
He doesn't have a legal claim to a cent and if you were to pay him he would not have a legal claim to anything further. He is asking you to give him money, plain and simple, and the best way to "put it behind you" is to find the person with the most backbone in your family and have them call him up and tell him, first off, he might as well just stop sending these "bills" because he is never going to get one cent from the money that is needed to care for your grandfather, and second, that if this kind of thing he calls "helping out" then his help will not be required again, ever.
posted by nanojath at 9:27 PM on March 5, 2007
posted by nanojath at 9:27 PM on March 5, 2007
There are some obvious legal advice questions, but I'd just add one point: legal battles suck.
In fact, they suck enough that if my lawyer thought he had any chance of winning the fight (or making it last a long time), I would just concede defeat, send him the check, and disown him.
Cheaper and easier.
posted by PEAK OIL at 9:28 PM on March 5, 2007
In fact, they suck enough that if my lawyer thought he had any chance of winning the fight (or making it last a long time), I would just concede defeat, send him the check, and disown him.
Cheaper and easier.
posted by PEAK OIL at 9:28 PM on March 5, 2007
Best answer: (oh, and if he would not win the fight, i would have a lawyer draft a letter saying "bring it on, douchebag.")
posted by PEAK OIL at 9:28 PM on March 5, 2007
posted by PEAK OIL at 9:28 PM on March 5, 2007
Mrs Hilkinson, it truly seems like your uncle has manipulated your family masterfully. There is no precedent other than his being selfish, and others giving in. No way does your mother have any financial responsibility to him. As others said above, talk to a lawyer about your uncle's behavior. I am confident you will find that his demands are, at best, frivilous, and at worst, extortion. I am sorry this is happening to your family.
posted by brain cloud at 9:29 PM on March 5, 2007
posted by brain cloud at 9:29 PM on March 5, 2007
Legal precedent or no, your mother would be setting up a situation where he feels OK continuing this type of behavior. There is no "putting this behind us"--he will demand another bill for your grandfather's funeral, and continue feeling no shame contacting your mother to demand money whenever he gets the itch (my kid wrecked his car, and we need to buy a new one! the leather sofa i shipped back has a hole in it, i get to buy a new one!). You need to make it clear to her that this behavior shouldn't be tolerated, because appeasing ridiculous demands on begets more ridiculous demands.
posted by almostmanda at 9:29 PM on March 5, 2007
posted by almostmanda at 9:29 PM on March 5, 2007
Best answer: Your uncle's requests are completely irrational, and he doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Your mother has taken on a huge burden as a long-time carer. She's made huge sacrifices, and she deserves a break.
Find a competent lawyer who is experienced in estate-planning issues and can explain things in plain language. Use that lawyer as a shield. She'll be used to dealing with people like your uncle, and she'll be able to get the family's affairs in rock-solid order.
Let your uncle know that any tantrums he chooses to throw will be dealt with not by you or your mom, but by your lawyer. Tell him that he must address any demands to your lawyer.
Get as much emotional distance as you can. Your mother needs to focus on caring for her father and taking care of herself. You need to focus your energies on supporting your mother. Don't let a dysfunctional family member sap your strength.
I've been in the exact same place that you are now, and I know how stressful and heart-wrenching it is. My thoughts are with you.
posted by freshwater_pr0n at 9:31 PM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
Your mother has taken on a huge burden as a long-time carer. She's made huge sacrifices, and she deserves a break.
Find a competent lawyer who is experienced in estate-planning issues and can explain things in plain language. Use that lawyer as a shield. She'll be used to dealing with people like your uncle, and she'll be able to get the family's affairs in rock-solid order.
Let your uncle know that any tantrums he chooses to throw will be dealt with not by you or your mom, but by your lawyer. Tell him that he must address any demands to your lawyer.
Get as much emotional distance as you can. Your mother needs to focus on caring for her father and taking care of herself. You need to focus your energies on supporting your mother. Don't let a dysfunctional family member sap your strength.
I've been in the exact same place that you are now, and I know how stressful and heart-wrenching it is. My thoughts are with you.
posted by freshwater_pr0n at 9:31 PM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
Best answer: IANAL (yet), but I seem to recall that only the executrix gets expenses reimbursed, and those expenses have to be submitted to court (who can rule on their reasonability). Honestly, I'd be more concerned if the executrix was going to try to pay him out of the estate, because if there's nothing in the will explicitly providing for it, that could be a breach of fiduciary duty (to the named beneficiaries, that is).
Is there a lawyer handling this? It might be a good idea to talk with him or her, especially if your mom or your cousin is considering paying out your uncle. If your grandfather is the beneficiary, someone needs to be looking out for his interests.
Take this all with a grain of salt: I didn't particularly enjoy Estates and we focused on the law in Ontario, and as I said before, IANAL.
posted by AV at 9:32 PM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
Is there a lawyer handling this? It might be a good idea to talk with him or her, especially if your mom or your cousin is considering paying out your uncle. If your grandfather is the beneficiary, someone needs to be looking out for his interests.
Take this all with a grain of salt: I didn't particularly enjoy Estates and we focused on the law in Ontario, and as I said before, IANAL.
posted by AV at 9:32 PM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Wow, there is nothing like a death in the family to bring out someone's true colors.
Your uncle is a serious turd and should be shunned as such. Don't pay him a dime beyond what the will legally calls for. Also, don't expect him to help out in caring for your grandfather when the time comes, it is obvious he couldn't give the first damn about anyone but himself.
Billing your family to attend your own mother's funeral? My WTF meter just melted and is a puddle of twitching non-understanding.
posted by fenriq at 9:34 PM on March 5, 2007 [3 favorites]
Your uncle is a serious turd and should be shunned as such. Don't pay him a dime beyond what the will legally calls for. Also, don't expect him to help out in caring for your grandfather when the time comes, it is obvious he couldn't give the first damn about anyone but himself.
Billing your family to attend your own mother's funeral? My WTF meter just melted and is a puddle of twitching non-understanding.
posted by fenriq at 9:34 PM on March 5, 2007 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I would say take the bill your uncle sent and put that cash aside to pay for a lawyer.
You shouldn't pay if future costs for your grandfather's care are in question. If your mom pays and she will take care of her father, she's essentially handing her brother her own money, as whenever the estate money runs out she'll pay for things herself.
People act weird in families and death in families brings out very strange behaviour. If he decides to get ugly, go get a lawyer. It doesn't sound like you have anything to lose by doing that.
posted by Salmonberry at 9:39 PM on March 5, 2007
You shouldn't pay if future costs for your grandfather's care are in question. If your mom pays and she will take care of her father, she's essentially handing her brother her own money, as whenever the estate money runs out she'll pay for things herself.
People act weird in families and death in families brings out very strange behaviour. If he decides to get ugly, go get a lawyer. It doesn't sound like you have anything to lose by doing that.
posted by Salmonberry at 9:39 PM on March 5, 2007
I'm watching something similar happen in my mother-in-law's family. You can be assured that this is just the opening act to some high-grade, greed-fueled stupid. Lawyer up now, because you can bet that your uncle already has.
posted by lekvar at 9:50 PM on March 5, 2007
posted by lekvar at 9:50 PM on March 5, 2007
If he had actually done some "work" then I might say it's worth discussing it with him, but it sounds like he has done absolutely nothing beyond what is customarily accepted (attending a funeral, shipping any inherited items back home, etc), so I suggest a radio silence / blackout with him. No point arguing or talking.. just don't acknowledge his existence ever again. It worked in my family!
posted by wackybrit at 9:57 PM on March 5, 2007
posted by wackybrit at 9:57 PM on March 5, 2007
Response by poster: Thank you all. I read everything from this post & the responses to my mother on the phone, and she is finally ready to see a lawyer - tomorrow, first thing. fenriq's turd comment was her favourite.
posted by Mrs Hilksom at 10:18 PM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by Mrs Hilksom at 10:18 PM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
From the sounds of it, a lawyer isn't required at this stage, and would only serve to further deplete the estate which must be used for your grandfather's care. Your uncle simply isn't entitled.
However, for your grandfather's continued care, it may be possible to bill your uncle for a contribution. I'd keep the bill he submitted, just because it maybe could be useful (IANAL). I'd also keep any paperwork of your grandmother's, showing her financial involvement with your uncle. This might be supportive documentation to your uncle's respnsibility to your grandfather.
posted by Goofyy at 10:41 PM on March 5, 2007
However, for your grandfather's continued care, it may be possible to bill your uncle for a contribution. I'd keep the bill he submitted, just because it maybe could be useful (IANAL). I'd also keep any paperwork of your grandmother's, showing her financial involvement with your uncle. This might be supportive documentation to your uncle's respnsibility to your grandfather.
posted by Goofyy at 10:41 PM on March 5, 2007
There is no precedent other than his being selfish, and others giving in.
Seconded -- but the fact that you are coming to MeFi about this means that this is a big danger. Obviously, your mother is starting to fall for his bullying if she is even considering paying for any of this. The uncle does not care if he hurts anyone else with his behavior. Giving him money will not make the demands stop, it will just encourage him.
Here is one way to deal with this, assuming you and your mother want to continue some sort of family relationship with this extorter. Tell him that all of grandmother's estate went to grandfather and she has no control over it, and how you so wish that you could give him what he so finely deserves. You imply that something will be forthcoming after grandfather passes on. Then ... you set up 2 trusts. Trust #1 is set up with mother as a benificary. Trust #2 is set up with uncle, mother, whoever else. Grandfather's assets go in the first trust, provide for his care, and eventually go to mother. Trust #2 is never funded. Time takes it's eventual ultimate toll, as it will on us all. Uncle is informed that there is no money left in the trust. (disclaimer: IANAL, even less so for canada)
Or you can just tell him to get lost.
posted by yohko at 11:48 PM on March 5, 2007
Seconded -- but the fact that you are coming to MeFi about this means that this is a big danger. Obviously, your mother is starting to fall for his bullying if she is even considering paying for any of this. The uncle does not care if he hurts anyone else with his behavior. Giving him money will not make the demands stop, it will just encourage him.
Here is one way to deal with this, assuming you and your mother want to continue some sort of family relationship with this extorter. Tell him that all of grandmother's estate went to grandfather and she has no control over it, and how you so wish that you could give him what he so finely deserves. You imply that something will be forthcoming after grandfather passes on. Then ... you set up 2 trusts. Trust #1 is set up with mother as a benificary. Trust #2 is set up with uncle, mother, whoever else. Grandfather's assets go in the first trust, provide for his care, and eventually go to mother. Trust #2 is never funded. Time takes it's eventual ultimate toll, as it will on us all. Uncle is informed that there is no money left in the trust. (disclaimer: IANAL, even less so for canada)
Or you can just tell him to get lost.
posted by yohko at 11:48 PM on March 5, 2007
I wouldn't respond by escalating it to the letter-from-a-lawyer level right away. In my own experience, it never even occurs to some children of well-off parents that there might be a bottom of the well, or at least one they'll ever have to think about. (In some ways this is rather unforgivably oblivious, but it's also often directly correlated to how much their parents indulged them.)
My guess is it's better to respond by being firm but honest and candid. Tell him that the money that's left in the estate is dedicated to caring for your grandfather, and you don't know how long it will last, or if it will cover it all, given the costs. Just leave it at that, and if he wants to say he deserves the money more than your ailing grandfather, leave it for him to explain why that is, exactly.
He might bring lawyers into it anyway, but you don't need to start it down that path now. There's at least some chance you can spare yourself that unpleasantry.
posted by mattpfeff at 2:59 AM on March 6, 2007
My guess is it's better to respond by being firm but honest and candid. Tell him that the money that's left in the estate is dedicated to caring for your grandfather, and you don't know how long it will last, or if it will cover it all, given the costs. Just leave it at that, and if he wants to say he deserves the money more than your ailing grandfather, leave it for him to explain why that is, exactly.
He might bring lawyers into it anyway, but you don't need to start it down that path now. There's at least some chance you can spare yourself that unpleasantry.
posted by mattpfeff at 2:59 AM on March 6, 2007
You know that junk mail you sometimes get, where there's a check made out to you, but then terms and provisions that say what you are agreeing to by cashing the check? I wonder if you could send Uncle Preposterous a check, but attach terms that say that by cashing it, he's agreeing to be billed in turn, for half the cost of Grandfather's care if the remaining estate runs out.
posted by daisyace at 4:16 AM on March 6, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by daisyace at 4:16 AM on March 6, 2007 [2 favorites]
I'm sorry to say that we went through a very similar situation when my mother-in-law died. My brother-in-law swooped in less than 24 hours after her death, raided her apartment and took all the valuables that he could find, toting them back to his place in a rented UHaul van. Weeks later, we got a bill for half the rental fee of the van, with a note that said it was "only fair" for the brothers to split the cost of cleaning out her place.
After we recovered from the shock, I promptly called an estate lawyer. I was informed that unless he was executor of the will and was asking to be reimbursed for expenses incurred while settling her estate (my husband was the executor BTW), he was not entitled to reimbursement.
We sent a letter to him, quoting the lawyer, and wrote that if he had any additional questions, he could write/call the lawyer, whose name was provided below. That was the end of that request.
The laws in this matter do vary by state (and certainly by country), and IANAL, so you need to consult a lawyer in the appropriate jurisdiction.
Good luck. I'm continually amazed at how death brings out the worst kind of greed in families.
posted by Flakypastry at 5:13 AM on March 6, 2007
After we recovered from the shock, I promptly called an estate lawyer. I was informed that unless he was executor of the will and was asking to be reimbursed for expenses incurred while settling her estate (my husband was the executor BTW), he was not entitled to reimbursement.
We sent a letter to him, quoting the lawyer, and wrote that if he had any additional questions, he could write/call the lawyer, whose name was provided below. That was the end of that request.
The laws in this matter do vary by state (and certainly by country), and IANAL, so you need to consult a lawyer in the appropriate jurisdiction.
Good luck. I'm continually amazed at how death brings out the worst kind of greed in families.
posted by Flakypastry at 5:13 AM on March 6, 2007
Does the estate have a lawyer? If it is right that the executrix can expense costs incurred in fulfilling the requests in the will and fighting any greedy relatives who wish to contest the will, then it seems to me that your cousin should engage the services of a lawyer. Your mom would be out-of-pocket otherwise, and she has no authority to pay the 'bill' your uncle sent.
posted by girlpublisher at 5:29 AM on March 6, 2007
posted by girlpublisher at 5:29 AM on March 6, 2007
It would probably be best to engage a lawyer and write a letter to the the uncle saying any furrther correspondence regarding his reimbursement is to be sent directly to the lawyer. It's better to have the upper hand when dealing with him. It seems obvious that his continued bills are snowballing into some grand scheme. There was recently a thread at SA dealing with horrible estate problems and the nasty side of wannabe inheritors.
posted by JJ86 at 5:52 AM on March 6, 2007
posted by JJ86 at 5:52 AM on March 6, 2007
I have nothing new to add, except to sadly note that you're not the only one to find out that death and inheritances bring out the extra-selfish in selfish people. It sucks to see one's family behaving in such a fashion. My condolences.
posted by desuetude at 6:07 AM on March 6, 2007
posted by desuetude at 6:07 AM on March 6, 2007
He's cheap and your side of the family is bitter from being put upon.
posted by smackfu at 6:24 AM on March 6, 2007
posted by smackfu at 6:24 AM on March 6, 2007
It isn't like you had a contract with him to do this "work" for a certain fee. My suggestions for you and your family (to add to the good advice above):
1. New phone number, or at least, caller ID:
2. I trip to the office supplies store to buy a brand spankin' new "Return to Sender" stamp (and a lot of pads of ink).
3. A nice family get-together (perhaps, sans him) to share and remember favorite stories of your grandmother.
I have always been one to say that we should be full of grace, because death brings out both the best and/or the worst in people, but this is over the top.
And (IANAL) you don't owe him anything.
posted by 4ster at 7:01 AM on March 6, 2007
1. New phone number, or at least, caller ID:
2. I trip to the office supplies store to buy a brand spankin' new "Return to Sender" stamp (and a lot of pads of ink).
3. A nice family get-together (perhaps, sans him) to share and remember favorite stories of your grandmother.
I have always been one to say that we should be full of grace, because death brings out both the best and/or the worst in people, but this is over the top.
And (IANAL) you don't owe him anything.
posted by 4ster at 7:01 AM on March 6, 2007
My mom and her sisters were all reimbursed for their travel from my grandparents' estate once my grandparents were dead. I don't think it was that they needed to or even asked, but my grandparents did leave quite a bit of money and maybe this was a way to divide up everyone's share. So it does happen. Luckily my mom and my aunts used the occasion to be a stronger unit, not a weaker one.
I am so sorry your uncle is being such a jerk.
posted by sutel at 7:16 AM on March 6, 2007
I am so sorry your uncle is being such a jerk.
posted by sutel at 7:16 AM on March 6, 2007
I wouldn't go nuclear or contact a lawyer unless totally necessary. Can you simply tell him that if his travel is reimbursed, everyone's is? That that means careful tracking of money that then needs to be subtracted against inheritance? That, to do this work, you would expect to be paid out of his inheritance? That this makes everything a headache and more complicated than it needs to be during trying circumstances?
I dunno - he sounds like a total jerk, but if it can be helped you don't want that money going to a lawyer...
posted by xammerboy at 10:10 AM on March 6, 2007
I dunno - he sounds like a total jerk, but if it can be helped you don't want that money going to a lawyer...
posted by xammerboy at 10:10 AM on March 6, 2007
Flakypastry: I was informed that unless he was executor of the will and was asking to be reimbursed for expenses incurred while settling her estate (my husband was the executor BTW), he was not entitled to reimbursement.
Seriously. As much as deaths in the family and funerals suck, your uncle didn't have to fly out. The executrix could have shipped the willed-to items to him, and the net (financial/material) result would be the same. I hope that doesn't sound too cold, as I don't mean it that way.
If the lawyer does say that your uncle's completely off the ball, I hope he has the decency to drop his reimbursement idea. I hope you'll provide follow-ups, if it's not too prying.
posted by CKmtl at 10:13 AM on March 6, 2007
Seriously. As much as deaths in the family and funerals suck, your uncle didn't have to fly out. The executrix could have shipped the willed-to items to him, and the net (financial/material) result would be the same. I hope that doesn't sound too cold, as I don't mean it that way.
If the lawyer does say that your uncle's completely off the ball, I hope he has the decency to drop his reimbursement idea. I hope you'll provide follow-ups, if it's not too prying.
posted by CKmtl at 10:13 AM on March 6, 2007
Response by poster: Last comment: thank you, seriously everyone! Thank you for all your considered responses. I'm very sorry to hear that so many people have gone through similar situations. You'd hope that this kind of thing was rare, if not singular. Alas.
After having discussed all this further with my mother on the phone last night (again), a few things were clarified:
1. she has the power of attorney over what's left of my grandparents' estate, hence the "why" of being served the requests for reimbursement from my uncle
2. I didn't realize this, but she has paid my uncle's "bill" and he has already cashed the cheque.
I completely agree that death brings out the most selfish of base tendencies in people. My grandmother herself held an extremely bitter and toxic lifelong grudge against her own father for having willed his estate entirely to his second wife - things her own mother had wanted my grandmother to have eventually went to my great-grandfather's stepchildren and there was no convincing the second wife otherwise.
My uncle's behaviour in the past has never been made "public" in the family - never spoken about openly, just with rolling eyes and snide comments among our more sane relatives - and I think that at this time of huge and ongoing bureaucratic wrangling to handle my grandfather's needs and the terms of my grandmother's will (on her own, remember), my mother fell victim to perpetuating the indulgence of his clearly incredibly selfish and crass demands in the hopes that my uncle would finally be satisfied. Or go away. Develop a shred of dignity - or perhaps some shame. Something.
I don't think it will happen again - reimbursements or giving them an audience in the first place, I mean. Hearing your comments read to her over the telephone helped my mother get some real perspective on just how truly unfeeling and greedy my uncle has been. Particularly since my grandfather is still alive and living on the money left in the estate. I believe my mother is considering tallying up a list of expenses she absorbed/incurred while my grandparents were living with her, and in the year since their move to the care facility, including the costs associated with my grandmother's death which she paid out of pocket. My mother absorbed those expenses because she saw it as part-and-parcel of caring for her parents and although she requested help from my uncle (and he never responded), she ultimately accepted that she was going to bear those costs alone and without recompense in any form. I have no idea what my uncle would think of the amazing dollar number which would represent my mother's expenses re: my grandparents over the last six years, though I suspect that he'd choke on his own tongue before offering to pony up half. And my mom's not holding her breath waiting for a miracle out of my uncle, either. But it would be an interesting exercise.
When my grandmother died, my uncle made a lot of phone calls and did a lot of great talking about renewing the family. He spoke about how we should let the events of the past remain in the past and implied that although we'd had difficulties at times, my grandmother had been the one to needle and exacerbate perceived slights and differences. She loved a good family snaggle, playing both sides. So it was a believable stance to claim that she'd been part of dividing people into camps and keeping them frosty. But now that she was gone, we could start again. It felt like a small step towards a nicer relationship with him and his family.
But this "bill" just did it for me. Smackfu - sure we're a bit bitter. Years of watching my grandmother favour my uncle might have caused some stress, but watching him swoop in, gather up the stuff he wanted and ship it back to himself - and then BILL the living estate for his own gain? That's all I needed to see. You know? Enough. I forgive him for his amazing greed. But there's no reason to invest in that kind of relationship again.
I'll say this: I do miss my cousins. We all knew each other when we were young, and I don't think they know about any of this stuff. They grew up not knowing my grandparents because my uncle limited their visits (despite petitioning my grandparents to pay for their educations, which they did). I wonder if it isn't better to live in ignorance about how amazingly bananas and hurtful your own parents can be outside the nuclear family unit. Over the years I periodically considered attempting to salvage my own relationship with those boys by giving them some insight into why the family fractured - explaining the various events and dramas precipitated by my uncle. Ultimately I decided that their relationship with their dad was better served not knowing our side of what has gone down over the years, and let them go in my mind. I hope they grow into men making ethical, fair choices for themselves - ultimately I hope for their sakes that my uncle's duplicitous and destructive weirdness was a secret that he foisted only on my grandparents (and now, by extension, my mother).
Thanks again. Peace out, y'all.
posted by Mrs Hilksom at 3:02 PM on March 6, 2007 [1 favorite]
After having discussed all this further with my mother on the phone last night (again), a few things were clarified:
1. she has the power of attorney over what's left of my grandparents' estate, hence the "why" of being served the requests for reimbursement from my uncle
2. I didn't realize this, but she has paid my uncle's "bill" and he has already cashed the cheque.
I completely agree that death brings out the most selfish of base tendencies in people. My grandmother herself held an extremely bitter and toxic lifelong grudge against her own father for having willed his estate entirely to his second wife - things her own mother had wanted my grandmother to have eventually went to my great-grandfather's stepchildren and there was no convincing the second wife otherwise.
My uncle's behaviour in the past has never been made "public" in the family - never spoken about openly, just with rolling eyes and snide comments among our more sane relatives - and I think that at this time of huge and ongoing bureaucratic wrangling to handle my grandfather's needs and the terms of my grandmother's will (on her own, remember), my mother fell victim to perpetuating the indulgence of his clearly incredibly selfish and crass demands in the hopes that my uncle would finally be satisfied. Or go away. Develop a shred of dignity - or perhaps some shame. Something.
I don't think it will happen again - reimbursements or giving them an audience in the first place, I mean. Hearing your comments read to her over the telephone helped my mother get some real perspective on just how truly unfeeling and greedy my uncle has been. Particularly since my grandfather is still alive and living on the money left in the estate. I believe my mother is considering tallying up a list of expenses she absorbed/incurred while my grandparents were living with her, and in the year since their move to the care facility, including the costs associated with my grandmother's death which she paid out of pocket. My mother absorbed those expenses because she saw it as part-and-parcel of caring for her parents and although she requested help from my uncle (and he never responded), she ultimately accepted that she was going to bear those costs alone and without recompense in any form. I have no idea what my uncle would think of the amazing dollar number which would represent my mother's expenses re: my grandparents over the last six years, though I suspect that he'd choke on his own tongue before offering to pony up half. And my mom's not holding her breath waiting for a miracle out of my uncle, either. But it would be an interesting exercise.
When my grandmother died, my uncle made a lot of phone calls and did a lot of great talking about renewing the family. He spoke about how we should let the events of the past remain in the past and implied that although we'd had difficulties at times, my grandmother had been the one to needle and exacerbate perceived slights and differences. She loved a good family snaggle, playing both sides. So it was a believable stance to claim that she'd been part of dividing people into camps and keeping them frosty. But now that she was gone, we could start again. It felt like a small step towards a nicer relationship with him and his family.
But this "bill" just did it for me. Smackfu - sure we're a bit bitter. Years of watching my grandmother favour my uncle might have caused some stress, but watching him swoop in, gather up the stuff he wanted and ship it back to himself - and then BILL the living estate for his own gain? That's all I needed to see. You know? Enough. I forgive him for his amazing greed. But there's no reason to invest in that kind of relationship again.
I'll say this: I do miss my cousins. We all knew each other when we were young, and I don't think they know about any of this stuff. They grew up not knowing my grandparents because my uncle limited their visits (despite petitioning my grandparents to pay for their educations, which they did). I wonder if it isn't better to live in ignorance about how amazingly bananas and hurtful your own parents can be outside the nuclear family unit. Over the years I periodically considered attempting to salvage my own relationship with those boys by giving them some insight into why the family fractured - explaining the various events and dramas precipitated by my uncle. Ultimately I decided that their relationship with their dad was better served not knowing our side of what has gone down over the years, and let them go in my mind. I hope they grow into men making ethical, fair choices for themselves - ultimately I hope for their sakes that my uncle's duplicitous and destructive weirdness was a secret that he foisted only on my grandparents (and now, by extension, my mother).
Thanks again. Peace out, y'all.
posted by Mrs Hilksom at 3:02 PM on March 6, 2007 [1 favorite]
I didn't realize this, but she has paid my uncle's "bill" and he has already cashed the cheque.
Wow. I can't believe how angry that makes me and I don't even have a dog in this race. Keep this in mind, MetaFilter friends: Put your eternal wishes in writing! "Power of attorney" ends at death, and I've seen plenty of people have to pay out to the vultures who only show their feathers at the graveside.
posted by ColdChef at 3:14 PM on March 6, 2007 [1 favorite]
Wow. I can't believe how angry that makes me and I don't even have a dog in this race. Keep this in mind, MetaFilter friends: Put your eternal wishes in writing! "Power of attorney" ends at death, and I've seen plenty of people have to pay out to the vultures who only show their feathers at the graveside.
posted by ColdChef at 3:14 PM on March 6, 2007 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by FlamingBore at 8:52 PM on March 5, 2007