Awkward stolen vehicle situation

January 28, 2007 2:10 PM

Stolen vehicle filter: I sold a vehicle that was stolen before the buyer took possession of it. WTF?

So, in December, I showed it to the buyer, and she was interested. Took it into a shop to get it inspected, and had some work done on it as a result. About 2 weeks ago, I got it out of the shop with a clean bill of health. The buyer sent me a check, I sent her the title and bill of sale. We agreed I would park it at a park and ride near my house, because I didn't have space for it at home, until she got the temporary plates for it and came to get it. (Out of state buyer)

I checked periodically on it while it was there, and everything was fine as of 4 days ago. Yesterday, she shows up, and the vehicle is missing. We went straight to the local PD, because I thought maybe they towed it. They said they didn't tow it, and the state police didn't either. So... the only thing they could figure is that it was stolen. We both filed reports with the police, with her filing as the "victim", since she had bought and registered the vehicle already.

So this raises some weird questions. I have yet to hand her the keys for the vehicle, she never took possession of it... Does she, in fact, own it? To what extent could I be considered liable here?

I feel awful, but I can't figure out what else I should do (assuming the police don't turn up anything). Thoughts of sending her back half what she paid have crossed my mind, just out of a sense of fairness. I know I didn't cause this problem (the freaking thief did), but I still feel like I probably shouldn't "get off clean" here. Particularly since I can tell this will probably hurt her financially more than it would have hurt me. :( Thoughts?! (both legal and ethical)

posted by knave to Grab Bag (31 answers total)

the idea of giving back half is nice. it seems like if she had not received the car , it was still in your possession. if i was in your shoes it would be hard to give her back the whole thing, but unless someone could perswad me otherwise (it wouldn't take much) i would feel like i should return her money. i'm not saying thats the right thing, or fair thing. just that it seems fair to me, for me. the situation sucks , i hope you can work it out.
posted by nola at 2:17 PM on January 28, 2007

How do you know that she did not take the car? How long had the car been in the park and ride? How often did you check the car? When was the last time you checked the car?
posted by rdr at 2:20 PM on January 28, 2007

persuade*
posted by nola at 2:20 PM on January 28, 2007

To the best of my knowledge, you aren't legally responsible as long as you two had actually filled out the required paperwork to transfer ownership.

As for her end, it's an unfortunate situation. That said, you never buy a car and leave it uninsured anywhere: it's always best to go into an insurance agency and have the plates--or a permit--ready as soon as the transfer of ownership is complete or there isn't much recourse for the victim of the theft.

Ethically, if you can afford the hit, returning half of the money would be an extremely nice gesture, and she'd probably appreciate it (obviously). And in the future, keep the car in your ownership until the person purchasing the car is actually able to come and get it--just ask for a post-dated banker's note. Even if you don't have the space, it would be best to keep the car insured/plated under your name at the Park and Ride. At least that way you'll be insured should it be stolen.

Disclaimer: consult your state law.
posted by The God Complex at 2:21 PM on January 28, 2007

Response by poster: Like I said:

- I have the keys still (and I don't see why she'd steal it after paying me for it)
- 2 weeks
- Checked every couple days, most recently Wednesday night

Also, the police said they saw it there, and they noticed it wasn't there on Friday. So it went missing Thursday or Friday.
posted by knave at 2:21 PM on January 28, 2007

Response by poster: Sorry, that was a response to rdr.
posted by knave at 2:22 PM on January 28, 2007

perhaps she stole it after paying you for it so you would refund her money. then she gets the car with legal ownership and she doesn't have to pay. I admit this is a very cynical thought and after reading your whole post I think it's unlikely, but when I read the first few lines the first thought that popped into my head was 'scam'.

And whatever you decide to do, wait a few weeks to see if the car turns up. It's possible someone borrowed it for a joyride and the cops will find it. That happened to a friend of mine.
posted by PercussivePaul at 2:34 PM on January 28, 2007

Response by poster: The vehicle isn't exactly joyride material. It's a 1984 23-foot class C RV. My fear is it's becoming scrap metal as we speak.
posted by knave at 2:37 PM on January 28, 2007

Response by poster: Also, thanks for the answers so far. I really do not suspect the buyer, based on her behavior. We both sat in the police station together filing the reports, so now the VIN will come up stolen if anyone tries to register it. I don't think a scammer would be happy having the police involved. And she isn't clamoring for her money back, she's just trying to find out how she can get the RV from whoever might have taken it.
posted by knave at 2:42 PM on January 28, 2007

Does she have insurance? She was the legal owner of the car at the time it was stolen. It doesn't matter if you've owned something for ten years or ten seconds. If she's got insurance she can claim on it.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 2:45 PM on January 28, 2007

Ethically, dunno.
Legally, you should look into a lawyer.
If you don't give her half, he can advise you where you stand, and if you do give her half, he can help you get something in writing; for instance, he might (or might not) advise terms to limit each side from going after the other for the rest of the money, and/or a clear description of what happens if the car is recovered (either in good condition, or not so much.)
posted by blenderfish at 2:46 PM on January 28, 2007

Response by poster: No, it wasn't covered by any insurance at the time it disappeared. She should have gotten insurance the day she sent the check, but I believe she was planning on liability-only coverage anyway, so it's not like it would have helped.
posted by knave at 2:50 PM on January 28, 2007

She gave you the money, you gave her the title, so I believe that makes her the owner. The fact that you still had the keys muddies it a bit. You both agreed on the location where it would be stored.

Offering half is a good thing to do. You should also figure out what you'll do if it's found, but in bad condition. It may have been taken for a joyride and may turn up in very bad shape.
posted by theora55 at 2:53 PM on January 28, 2007

she had bought and registered the vehicle already

She owned it and was dumb enough to think it was okay to leave it in a park and ride? IE non-insured but not on private property of herself or a friend? Only question is, you agreed to this form of delivery and thereby were part of creating the risky situation. If you want to pay her part, go ahead, but it looks to me she made the mistake of allowing the vehicle she owned to be in a situation that was no doubt tempting to a thief -- an odd vehicle just sitting there unused for a long time, in public parking. It's her problem. Scrap metal? It's probably a crack shack by now.
posted by Listener at 2:56 PM on January 28, 2007

I would be very careful about offering half the money back. It seems like an ethically nice thing to do, but there's a couple of key points here:

- If she was in posession of the title, the car belonged to her at the time it was stolen and it's officially, legally and ethically not your responsibility. Is it an unfortunate situation? Yes, but she owned the car no matter which way you slice it.
- It's a crappy thing to insinuate, but there could be some kind of a strange scam going on here, it seems really strange to ask that a recently purchased car be parked somewhere like a park 'n ride.
- If it's NOT a scam, the buyer is likely suspicious of you, and offering to give back half can seem like an admission of some sort of guilt (i.e. "that scammer's trying to make me think he's decent so I don't come after him legally")
posted by twiggy at 3:02 PM on January 28, 2007

Speaking strictly as a former California car dealer (and I don't know how this applies to private party sales), our sales were never considered consummated in the eyes of the law until the buyer took physical possession of the vehicle. This would be one of those times to lawyer up and see where you stand in your state.

Take a look at the last paragraph of CVC 5901:
Notice by Dealer or Lessor-Retailer of Transfer and Mileage: Form Requirements

5901. (a) Every dealer or lessor-retailer, upon transferring by sale, lease, or otherwise any vehicle, whether new or used, of a type subject to registration under this code, shall, not later than the end of the fifth calendar day thereafter not counting the day of sale, give written notice of the transfer to the department at its headquarters upon an appropriate form provided by it.

(b) Except as otherwise provided in this subdivision or in subdivision (c), the dealer or lessor-retailer shall enter on the form and pursuant to Section 32705(a) of Title 49 of the United States Code, on the ownership certificate, the actual mileage of the vehicle as indicated by the vehicle's odometer at the time of the transfer. However, if the vehicle dealer or lessor-retailer has knowledge that the mileage displayed on the odometer is incorrect, the licensee shall indicate on the form on which the mileage is entered that the mileage registered by the odometer is incorrect. A vehicle dealer or lessor-retailer need not give the notice when selling or transferring a new unregistered vehicle to a dealer or lessor retailer.

(c) When the dealer or lessor-retailer is not in possession of the vehicle that is sold or transferred, the person in physical possession of the vehicle shall give the information required by subdivision (b).

(d) A sale is deemed completed and consummated when the purchaser of the vehicle has paid the purchase price, or, in lieu thereof, has signed a purchase contract or security agreement, and has taken physical possession or delivery of the vehicle.
posted by buggzzee23 at 3:24 PM on January 28, 2007

The fact that she asked it to be parked in such an odd place makes me quite suspicious. That she went to police station doesn't make her innocent, it might make her a very sophisticated scam artist. I'd shell out the $150 for a one hour appointment with a lawyer. Think of it as insurance...
posted by COD at 5:13 PM on January 28, 2007

This may be a stupid question but did you check with the park and ride to see if THEY had it towed? You have to pay to park there, right? Maybe you did't pay enough and got their local towing service to haul your car away? Unless this is some kind of public lot. In which case, is there anyone else, like some kind of transit authority, that might have jurisdiction? And my friend's joyride car was a twenty-year-old busted up van... so don't give up hope just yet.

With respect to the lawyer, that's a very good idea. If you do give her some kind of money, I can see that opening the door for her to sue you for the rest of the money, since you're sort of admitting liability, unless you get an agreement from her in writing to accept half as a settlement. hence: lawyer.
posted by PercussivePaul at 5:53 PM on January 28, 2007

it can't be too hard to steal and hide a vehicle like that...how big of a town are you in? Can you go looking for it? Call around?
posted by Salvatorparadise at 6:22 PM on January 28, 2007

I am going to take a hard line here. She paid for and registered the vehicle. It is her's. If you had insurance on the vehicle, it would have ceased upon transfer of ownership.

1. She requested for you to leave it in the lot.

2. She did not insure the vehicle.

3. She waited 2 weeks before picking up vehicle.

Why should you give her any of the money back? She made some very poor choices. She is a responsible adult, now she has to live with the consequences.
posted by JujuB at 7:44 PM on January 28, 2007

"1984 23-foot class C RV", that's bascially a mobile home, right? I'm going to vote for "It was towed, just not by the police". Talk to the Park and Ride people.
posted by krisjohn at 7:50 PM on January 28, 2007 [1 favorite]

Were there plates on the vehicle while it was left at the Park'n'Ride? If there wasn't it may have been towed because someone thought it was an abandoned car? Maybe some other authority or private towing company towed it? Or as krisjohn said, ask the park'n'ride folk if they use a towing company ...
posted by zaphod at 9:39 PM on January 28, 2007

(d) A sale is deemed completed and consummated when the purchaser of the vehicle has paid the purchase price, or, in lieu thereof, has signed a purchase contract or security agreement, and has taken physical possession or delivery of the vehicle.

This is a little ambiguous, at least to me.

Does it mean that a sale is final when (the purchaser of the vehicle has paid the purchase price, or, in lieu thereof, has signed a purchase contract or security agreement) AND (has taken physical possession or delivery of the vehicle)?

Or does it mean that a sale is final when (the purchaser of the vehicle has paid the purchase price) OR (has signed a purchase contract or security agreement, and has taken physical possession or delivery of the vehicle.)
posted by AmbroseChapel at 10:30 PM on January 28, 2007

It's hers. Let her deal with it. If she filed the papers, it's hers. I appreciate what you are trying to do, but don't go there. It's not your fault she couldn't pick it up.

On preview, what JuJuB says.
posted by 6:1 at 10:39 PM on January 28, 2007

Response by poster: The park and ride is state owned land, the police told me the only people who would have towed it are them, or the state police. They contacted the state police, and neither of them towed it.

It's not suspicious at all that we parked it there. It's a big RV and I don't have room for it at my house. I had been parking it at various Walmarts for the past 10 months. After it was worked on, she was uncomfortable with the Walmart I had it at (not the nicest area), so I offered to use the park and ride instead. Turned out to be quite a mistake.

There was a plate on the RV. I do suspect it was towed because there is no broken glass, and probably the person who did it thought it was abandoned. Nevertheless, as the police agreed, it was not abandoned, and the person who took it had no right to do so.
posted by knave at 10:49 PM on January 28, 2007

Response by poster: Sorry, to clarify, there are no "park and ride people," other than the police.
posted by knave at 10:51 PM on January 28, 2007

She paid and registered, and she chose where to park it. If she's the sort who pays for something she can't take posession of, yet arranges a strange place to park, it's her problem.

I feel sorry for her, it sounds like an expensive lesson. But really, it was a very stupid thing she did. You simply went along with the request of the buyer.
posted by Goofyy at 4:35 AM on January 29, 2007

I would suggest that you speak to an attorney. This sounds scammy, and the best scam artists are those you'd never expect.

I do know that RV's are very popular with gypsies, and I also know that some gypsies are very clever con artists. My father sold an RV to a gypsy for cash in Texas a few years ago, and I've seen vacant parking lots in Germany and Austria that serve as temporary RV camps for small gypsy bands.

This woman could be working with someone else - she could be the innocent-looking front for someone else's con, and her friends might know enough about the legal system to scam you up one side and down the other. You obviously don't know the legal system well enough to judge your risk, and you're obviously not an expert in disposing of / laundering a stolen vehicle, so I'd cover my tail by talking with someone who is such an expert.

For all you know, the law entitles this woman to sue you to get her money back, and her friends may be good at disposing of stolen RV's for cash to unwary buyers.

If I were you, I would proceed with extreme caution, and forget about paying any money back or even dealing with the woman again until you've spoken with an attorney.
posted by syzygy at 5:54 AM on January 29, 2007

After re-reading, it does sound like it could be a scam. Procede with caution.
posted by 6:1 at 9:33 AM on January 29, 2007

Ooh this sounds like a scam that's currently going on Craigslist. The "buyer" sends you a cashier's check or money order and expects you to send the item (or in your case, the title). The check ends up being bogus and you end up without the item and out the money. So did you cash the check already?? If not, better hurry to the bank.
posted by mynameismandab at 10:51 AM on February 1, 2007

I really want to see how this turns out.

Best of luck.
posted by ageispolis at 8:43 PM on February 1, 2007