The wrong bar
January 25, 2007 1:25 PM Subscribe
Taking the Illinois bar... Is the full BarBri course worth it?
Decision time.
I consider the whole bar prep industry a racket...but a necessary one. Therefore I was planning on shelling out the money for the BarBri books and studying on my own but skipping the extra money shelling required for the "live" classes. For the MultiState portion I was going to choose PMBR.
I'm a very diligent studier and feel this is the most effective use of my (limited) funds. Is it?
P.S. - If anyone wants to give me a job or even an interview, that'd be perfect as well... ^_^
Decision time.
I consider the whole bar prep industry a racket...but a necessary one. Therefore I was planning on shelling out the money for the BarBri books and studying on my own but skipping the extra money shelling required for the "live" classes. For the MultiState portion I was going to choose PMBR.
I'm a very diligent studier and feel this is the most effective use of my (limited) funds. Is it?
P.S. - If anyone wants to give me a job or even an interview, that'd be perfect as well... ^_^
My experience with BarBri, which was admittedly a long time ago, was that attending the lectures were well worth it for two reasons: 1.) the lecturers did not just cover the substantive material (contracts, torts, etc.); they also covered the inside baseball aspect of how to take a bar exam; 2.) the structure of the nightly lectures forced me to study every day and keep on schedule. I took a second bar exam in another state without a bar review course and I personally had real difficulty motivating myself to maintain a regular study schedule.
posted by pasici at 1:56 PM on January 25, 2007
posted by pasici at 1:56 PM on January 25, 2007
I used MicroMash when I took (and passed) the NY bar in 2004. The full MicroMash study package was 1/3 the cost of BarBri b/c MM is entirely self-study. I don't know how the cost compares if you're just buying the BarBri books. Also, if you don't want to contribute to the BarBri monopoly/racket, using another program might make you feel better about shelling out the bucks.
(I do not work for MicroMash.)
posted by Mavri at 1:57 PM on January 25, 2007
(I do not work for MicroMash.)
posted by Mavri at 1:57 PM on January 25, 2007
Congrats dcjd. Its a good feeling isn't it? Anyway, I did as you are planning whatitis and studied the books rather than taking the live classes, and I did okay. I would ask around at places that you may have clerked and see if someone has the materials from a year or two ago and fill in the gaps with the advance sheets and asking friends who have the current materials. Someone at a summer job gave me the materials from when she took it in 2003, and I managed to pass in 2005 using those. I also saved myself a couple of thousand dollars. So, it can be done (although this was in South Carolina, which is not known for the difficulty of its exam). That being said, spend as much as necessary to make sure that you pass. Good luck. It will be over before you know it.
posted by ND¢ at 1:59 PM on January 25, 2007
posted by ND¢ at 1:59 PM on January 25, 2007
How much of a price difference is it? I did the live classes for Illinois, and although they were a bit tedious I remember stuff from the lectures coming to me as I was sitting for the bar. If your proposal is to buy just the books, and no tapes or anything, I'd say pay for the class if it is not a huge differential.
I also did a three-day PMBR (because my firm paid for it), and found it was good as an addition to Bar/Bri but not as a substitute. Bar/Bri does a very good job teaching the MBE, and the Bar/Bri books have a ton of practice MBE questions in them. PMBR just reinforced the rules and taught some of the goofy exceptions/tricks that the testmakers like to include.
Good luck to you. The experience is overwhelming, but if you study diligently hopefully it will be a one-time thing.
dcjd: congratulations!
posted by AgentRocket at 2:00 PM on January 25, 2007
I also did a three-day PMBR (because my firm paid for it), and found it was good as an addition to Bar/Bri but not as a substitute. Bar/Bri does a very good job teaching the MBE, and the Bar/Bri books have a ton of practice MBE questions in them. PMBR just reinforced the rules and taught some of the goofy exceptions/tricks that the testmakers like to include.
Good luck to you. The experience is overwhelming, but if you study diligently hopefully it will be a one-time thing.
dcjd: congratulations!
posted by AgentRocket at 2:00 PM on January 25, 2007
Thanks guys! It really feels good to complete the whole process of becoming a lawyer... now I just need to find a law job in DC! (if anyone has any leads, feel free to email me! )
posted by dcjd at 2:14 PM on January 25, 2007
posted by dcjd at 2:14 PM on January 25, 2007
The BarBri Multistate software questions were really helpful to me - I did not find PMBR necessary.
If you truly, truly are diligent, then you can probably skip the live lectures - but if it's not a big price differential, give yourself the peace of mind and shell out for the lectures. That said, I paid for the lectures and never went (same with my friend) and we passed with flying colors.
posted by KAS at 2:20 PM on January 25, 2007
If you truly, truly are diligent, then you can probably skip the live lectures - but if it's not a big price differential, give yourself the peace of mind and shell out for the lectures. That said, I paid for the lectures and never went (same with my friend) and we passed with flying colors.
posted by KAS at 2:20 PM on January 25, 2007
The lectures were very useful, in my opinion, because of two things:
First, the instructors generally had what turned out to be quite accurate information about what subjects would appear on the exam.
Second, the information covered in the books was exhaustive. The classes provided a lot of information about what you actually needed to really know and what you could have a less-then-perfect recall of.
How much are you saving by not taking the classes? Back in the old days when I took the exam, I don't think that they even offered a books-only option. Unless you are saving 50% or more, I wouldn't even consider it (and then, I wouldn't do it, but your mileage may vary). The consequences of a not passing the bar the first time will likely be significant for your long- and short-term career prospects and income. It seems to me to be a stupid way to save several hundred bucks.
Sure, the extent to which BarBri is a money-printing racket will piss you off, but it's part of the game.
posted by jcwagner at 3:22 PM on January 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
First, the instructors generally had what turned out to be quite accurate information about what subjects would appear on the exam.
Second, the information covered in the books was exhaustive. The classes provided a lot of information about what you actually needed to really know and what you could have a less-then-perfect recall of.
How much are you saving by not taking the classes? Back in the old days when I took the exam, I don't think that they even offered a books-only option. Unless you are saving 50% or more, I wouldn't even consider it (and then, I wouldn't do it, but your mileage may vary). The consequences of a not passing the bar the first time will likely be significant for your long- and short-term career prospects and income. It seems to me to be a stupid way to save several hundred bucks.
Sure, the extent to which BarBri is a money-printing racket will piss you off, but it's part of the game.
posted by jcwagner at 3:22 PM on January 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
I took the Illinois bar in February 2005. I did the live BarBri and live PMBR. PMBR was such a waste that I actually only went to the first day and picked up the materials, stayed for an hour, and went home and taught myself. BarBri, on the other hand, was invaluble. I recommend that you go so far as to sign up for the extra BarBri essay course, as that really helped me to practice and evaluate my essay writing - and I consider myself to be an excellent writer. I luckily had a firm that paid for all of this but even if you don't, it's well worth the money not to have to repeat the bar in July.
However, remember that BarBri may have already started for the February bar, so you might be behind the curve on this one.
The workbooks from BarBri are very worth it. I'd give you mine but I already handed them down to someone who just took the bar.
Good luck! Email me if you have any more questions.
posted by MeetMegan at 3:46 PM on January 25, 2007
However, remember that BarBri may have already started for the February bar, so you might be behind the curve on this one.
The workbooks from BarBri are very worth it. I'd give you mine but I already handed them down to someone who just took the bar.
Good luck! Email me if you have any more questions.
posted by MeetMegan at 3:46 PM on January 25, 2007
Took both BarBri and the three-day for PMBR. Not Illinois, but Maryland. Still found them both very useful. Taking the practice tests for PMBR was really helpful too. The books are worth it. You can't overstudy for this exam.
posted by Ironmouth at 3:59 PM on January 25, 2007
posted by Ironmouth at 3:59 PM on January 25, 2007
Barbri is a necessary evil. Or at least I think it's necessary, because nobody seems to want to chance taking the bar without it. YMMV, but the lectures were a complete waste of time. (The only things I remember are that David Epstein supports Kinky Friedman for governor and that Paula Franzese's dad invented penne with vodka sauce.) The outlines, old essay questions, and practice MBEs are where Barbri pays off.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 4:53 PM on January 25, 2007
posted by Saucy Intruder at 4:53 PM on January 25, 2007
P.S. dcjd, and other lawyer-types or wannabes, are invited to join (and help resurrect) MefiLawyers, our mailing list.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 4:58 PM on January 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by Saucy Intruder at 4:58 PM on January 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
I found the PMBR books extremely useful, but the PMBR lectures were completely worthless. I could have read the answers to the 200 questions in half a day, and spent the next day and a half doing many more questions and reading many more answers. I don't need someone to read the answers for me.
Barbri is a mixed bag. The lectures can be painful, but I find them useful (I'm taking them again right now for a third state) since I don't have a lot of time to study otherwise, and they highlight the important stuff.
My best trick from the first time around? Do as many MBE questions as possible, because you're necessarily learning every time you go over the answer to a question you got wrong. I managed to double my MBE score in about 10 days (yeah I really sucked at first) just by doing hundreds and hundreds of problems.
posted by saladpants at 5:01 PM on January 25, 2007
Barbri is a mixed bag. The lectures can be painful, but I find them useful (I'm taking them again right now for a third state) since I don't have a lot of time to study otherwise, and they highlight the important stuff.
My best trick from the first time around? Do as many MBE questions as possible, because you're necessarily learning every time you go over the answer to a question you got wrong. I managed to double my MBE score in about 10 days (yeah I really sucked at first) just by doing hundreds and hundreds of problems.
posted by saladpants at 5:01 PM on January 25, 2007
I did BarBri on DVD which was great becuase I could watch it on fastforward when it was something I had a decent grasp of, and rewatch what I was having trouble with. Also, watching from home in my pj's was an advantage. I thought Barbri was good becuase it provided a structure for studying. However, my firm picked up the cost; if it hadn't, I probably would have looked into cheaper alternatives.
And I agree - do as many practice questions for the MBE as possible.
posted by dpx.mfx at 5:48 PM on January 25, 2007
And I agree - do as many practice questions for the MBE as possible.
posted by dpx.mfx at 5:48 PM on January 25, 2007
I took the NY bar exam and BarBri, but only attended about 1/3 of the live lectures. I passed, and I think I could have done it without any lectures at all. In retrospect, I wish I had done MicroMash or some other cheaper self-study program, since I was paying for it myself.
The BarBri lectures are important only because they distill the absolutely essential information you need for the bar. If you study only from the books, you might not be able to do the necessary weeding out because the BarBri books cover way too much material. You need the lectures to focus you. BUT -- you can very well get that focus by finding someone to give you their Barbri notes (as I did) and by paying close attention to the charts that show the frequency of topics on the exam.
The lectures do also give you some important information about how to answer the essay questions, but I think you may be able to glean that from other sources by learning how they grade the essays in Indiana. For instance, in New York, the key with the essays was that you don't get docked for errors, but you accumulate points for whatever correct law you can manage to get onto the paper that's generally responsive to the question.
A lot of this also depends on how good a law student you were. I'd say that if you consistently got As on law school exams, especially in the basic 1L courses, then you can probably put in the minimum amount of time and effort into bar study. You won't be actually stretching intellectually for the bar; the challenge is just cramming it all into your head. But if you think you might have difficulty with the concepts themselves, then you might be better off going with the full BarBri experience.
posted by footnote at 6:24 AM on January 26, 2007
The BarBri lectures are important only because they distill the absolutely essential information you need for the bar. If you study only from the books, you might not be able to do the necessary weeding out because the BarBri books cover way too much material. You need the lectures to focus you. BUT -- you can very well get that focus by finding someone to give you their Barbri notes (as I did) and by paying close attention to the charts that show the frequency of topics on the exam.
The lectures do also give you some important information about how to answer the essay questions, but I think you may be able to glean that from other sources by learning how they grade the essays in Indiana. For instance, in New York, the key with the essays was that you don't get docked for errors, but you accumulate points for whatever correct law you can manage to get onto the paper that's generally responsive to the question.
A lot of this also depends on how good a law student you were. I'd say that if you consistently got As on law school exams, especially in the basic 1L courses, then you can probably put in the minimum amount of time and effort into bar study. You won't be actually stretching intellectually for the bar; the challenge is just cramming it all into your head. But if you think you might have difficulty with the concepts themselves, then you might be better off going with the full BarBri experience.
posted by footnote at 6:24 AM on January 26, 2007
I have taken three bars and passed two. I self-studied for all of them.
The classes are good if you're a person who needs to have structure created for them. If you're the type of person who can create and stick to a study plan, then self-study is the way to go.
I would advise you to definitely get the BarBri books. I used MicroMash for the first bar I took. Their MBE materials are fantastic, but I found the state materials quite lacking. The state outlines weren't very easy to understand, and only 12 state practice essays were provided.
BarBri's stuff was well organized, easy to read, and they provided tons of state essays to practice with.
It's worth it to spend the money on BarBri now, rather than waste more time time retaking the bar later.
posted by reenum at 6:25 AM on January 26, 2007
The classes are good if you're a person who needs to have structure created for them. If you're the type of person who can create and stick to a study plan, then self-study is the way to go.
I would advise you to definitely get the BarBri books. I used MicroMash for the first bar I took. Their MBE materials are fantastic, but I found the state materials quite lacking. The state outlines weren't very easy to understand, and only 12 state practice essays were provided.
BarBri's stuff was well organized, easy to read, and they provided tons of state essays to practice with.
It's worth it to spend the money on BarBri now, rather than waste more time time retaking the bar later.
posted by reenum at 6:25 AM on January 26, 2007
I'd say that if you consistently got As on law school exams, especially in the basic 1L courses, then you can probably put in the minimum amount of time and effort into bar study.
That was pretty much the philosophy of everyone I have ever personally known who failed a bar exam.
posted by jcwagner at 2:05 PM on January 26, 2007
That was pretty much the philosophy of everyone I have ever personally known who failed a bar exam.
posted by jcwagner at 2:05 PM on January 26, 2007
I'd say that if you consistently got As on law school exams, especially in the basic 1L courses, then you can probably put in the minimum amount of time and effort into bar study writing practice essay questions.
Fixed. The essays test your analytical abilities, not your knowledge of state-specific substantive law (this is why folks in New York can hop on the Mass Pike and take the Massachusetts essay exam after furiously learning about chapter 93A in the parking lot.) You can still screw yourself on the MBE, however, which does not seek to exploit a 1L's typical skill set.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 4:56 AM on January 27, 2007
Fixed. The essays test your analytical abilities, not your knowledge of state-specific substantive law (this is why folks in New York can hop on the Mass Pike and take the Massachusetts essay exam after furiously learning about chapter 93A in the parking lot.) You can still screw yourself on the MBE, however, which does not seek to exploit a 1L's typical skill set.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 4:56 AM on January 27, 2007
That was pretty much the philosophy of everyone I have ever personally known who failed a bar exam
Oh yeah, definitely don't do the thing where you go, "I was on law review, I'll just study a week for the bar, no prob." If you've done well in law school you won't need BarBri's handholding, but you'll definitely need the requisite amount of time to stuff everything into your head.
posted by footnote at 2:55 PM on January 27, 2007
Oh yeah, definitely don't do the thing where you go, "I was on law review, I'll just study a week for the bar, no prob." If you've done well in law school you won't need BarBri's handholding, but you'll definitely need the requisite amount of time to stuff everything into your head.
posted by footnote at 2:55 PM on January 27, 2007
To echo what some of the people said in this thread, the answer is an extremely simple one.
If you aren't a self-studier and need the structure to force you to at least be thinking about the concepts, then take it.
If you are a fine self-studier who can stick to a self-created and self-imposed schedule to study, then don't take it.
The value in the class is not in what they teach you or tricks they give you--any self-study course will provide you with that stuff. The value lies in the structured progression through the testing areas for those who need it.
I took it because I needed that self-imposed obligation of having to wake up early and go to class for several hours. If I hadn't taken it, I would have slept in until noon and would have been apt to putting things off. I knew that I needed the structure, and I knew that I could do just fine with the class plus a couple of hours on my own. I knew my study and learning habits.
Ultimately, your success (or lack thereof) on the Bar is going to come down to one thing: your ability to self-assess. You know how much time you need to study things to grasp things. You know how good or bad your study habits are. You know how much structure you need. You know when you know enough of a subject and can move one. If you can't own up to those things and schedule accordingly, then you won't do well.
posted by dios at 3:03 PM on January 28, 2007 [1 favorite]
If you aren't a self-studier and need the structure to force you to at least be thinking about the concepts, then take it.
If you are a fine self-studier who can stick to a self-created and self-imposed schedule to study, then don't take it.
The value in the class is not in what they teach you or tricks they give you--any self-study course will provide you with that stuff. The value lies in the structured progression through the testing areas for those who need it.
I took it because I needed that self-imposed obligation of having to wake up early and go to class for several hours. If I hadn't taken it, I would have slept in until noon and would have been apt to putting things off. I knew that I needed the structure, and I knew that I could do just fine with the class plus a couple of hours on my own. I knew my study and learning habits.
Ultimately, your success (or lack thereof) on the Bar is going to come down to one thing: your ability to self-assess. You know how much time you need to study things to grasp things. You know how good or bad your study habits are. You know how much structure you need. You know when you know enough of a subject and can move one. If you can't own up to those things and schedule accordingly, then you won't do well.
posted by dios at 3:03 PM on January 28, 2007 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Well, it turns out that one of their main advantages was that their employees were signing up for the bar exam, and were illegally copying questions that were being reused on subsequent examinations! They've been ordered to stop doing that and to pay a large amount on money to the National Conference of Bar Examiners. The bar examiners have stopped using the questions that PMBR copied.
I took last summers' NY BarBri course and used their included software to study for the MBE. (the software uses the same bank of questions as the BarBri books, but gives you detailed reports after each practice quiz so you know what areas you should work on). This strategy allowed me to get a very good score, pass the exam, and yesterday gain admittance to the bar!
posted by dcjd at 1:46 PM on January 25, 2007