What do you do with a quacky Chiro?
January 16, 2007 6:53 AM Subscribe
I think my friend's "doctor" is a dangerous quack. Do I tell her? How?
A very close friend of mine (as in, like a sister) has chronic health problems related to obesity. She also has an intense mistrust of doctors, scientists and authority figures. Last year, two seperate doctors asked her to consider bariatric surgery, which led her to dump them and start seeing a chiropractor. I tried to be supportive at the time, despite misgivings, but after hearing about this guy for a year now, I am afraid she is just endangering her health further.
After she said a few things about her treatment that made no medical sense, another friend and I looked up the chiro. He pretty much fits the definition of a quack, with made-up, meaningless awards and degrees, promises of being able to treat autism and ADD with his skills, his own line of nutritional products and diagnostic tools like live cell analysis and electro-magnetic imaging. I also found out that he is performing accupunture without a license, drawing blood without being certified as a lab and using equipment the FDA has banned. He has had his chiropractic license suspended in the past for negligence.
Meanwhile, my friend is not getting any healthier, and she's not treating the diabetes, which is causing liver damage. For some reason, her husband, who is normally a pretty skeptical guy, is sold on the chiropractor as well. She's only 35, with 2 young kids, and it kills me to see her putting her eggs in this whacko's basket. Do I tell her what I know? Do I just report him to the appropriate authorities? What would you do?
A very close friend of mine (as in, like a sister) has chronic health problems related to obesity. She also has an intense mistrust of doctors, scientists and authority figures. Last year, two seperate doctors asked her to consider bariatric surgery, which led her to dump them and start seeing a chiropractor. I tried to be supportive at the time, despite misgivings, but after hearing about this guy for a year now, I am afraid she is just endangering her health further.
After she said a few things about her treatment that made no medical sense, another friend and I looked up the chiro. He pretty much fits the definition of a quack, with made-up, meaningless awards and degrees, promises of being able to treat autism and ADD with his skills, his own line of nutritional products and diagnostic tools like live cell analysis and electro-magnetic imaging. I also found out that he is performing accupunture without a license, drawing blood without being certified as a lab and using equipment the FDA has banned. He has had his chiropractic license suspended in the past for negligence.
Meanwhile, my friend is not getting any healthier, and she's not treating the diabetes, which is causing liver damage. For some reason, her husband, who is normally a pretty skeptical guy, is sold on the chiropractor as well. She's only 35, with 2 young kids, and it kills me to see her putting her eggs in this whacko's basket. Do I tell her what I know? Do I just report him to the appropriate authorities? What would you do?
I'd definitely tell her. Why not show her the results of your research into him?
Why are you hesitating? Are you afraid she'll dump you over him? Or just that she'll dismiss your arguments? (if the former... um... get someone else to tell her?)
posted by ClarissaWAM at 7:04 AM on January 16, 2007
Why are you hesitating? Are you afraid she'll dump you over him? Or just that she'll dismiss your arguments? (if the former... um... get someone else to tell her?)
posted by ClarissaWAM at 7:04 AM on January 16, 2007
You should tell her, but in an understanding manner. There are a lot of people who believe deeply in non-allopathic medicine (and lots of others who believe that allopathy is failing them and they should try something else). Be a friend, and let her know you're scared.
I've known people with chronic conditions who stopped treating them with proven medications in favor of homeopathic remedies. I've watched them get worse, but be happier and have more courage and will. I don't approve of those choices, but some people need the feeling of control more than they need control itself.
posted by Plutor at 7:05 AM on January 16, 2007
I've known people with chronic conditions who stopped treating them with proven medications in favor of homeopathic remedies. I've watched them get worse, but be happier and have more courage and will. I don't approve of those choices, but some people need the feeling of control more than they need control itself.
posted by Plutor at 7:05 AM on January 16, 2007
Quackwatch is essential reading for you in trying to debunk some of the claims she may have been subjected to.
posted by rongorongo at 7:13 AM on January 16, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by rongorongo at 7:13 AM on January 16, 2007 [1 favorite]
Of course tell her. Even a reputable alternative practitioner would be loads better than this guy. It's not like the doc would have volunteered the fact that his license was suspended. If you show her all this information and she ignores you, you don't have to push it, but if you know the doctor treating your diabetic friend has this kind of record, it would be almost negligent not to tell her, regardless of whatever issues with doctors she has.
posted by phoenixy at 7:16 AM on January 16, 2007
posted by phoenixy at 7:16 AM on January 16, 2007
If you don't tell her, she loses her health, time, and money. If you tell her, maybe she loses her health, time, and money anyway, but at least you tried. So tell her. But if she goes in for irrational cures, watch out for an irrational response.
And -- or? -- talk to her husband, if he's 'normally a pretty skeptical guy' who might be more likely to see that the quack's a quack. Just make sure she doesn't feel like you're sneaking around behind her back or like you and her husband are both ganging up on her.
In any case -- 'he is performing acupuncture without a license, drawing blood without being certified as a lab and using equipment the FDA has banned.' -- turn in the quack. Maybe you can eliminate him as an option.
posted by pracowity at 7:19 AM on January 16, 2007
And -- or? -- talk to her husband, if he's 'normally a pretty skeptical guy' who might be more likely to see that the quack's a quack. Just make sure she doesn't feel like you're sneaking around behind her back or like you and her husband are both ganging up on her.
In any case -- 'he is performing acupuncture without a license, drawing blood without being certified as a lab and using equipment the FDA has banned.' -- turn in the quack. Maybe you can eliminate him as an option.
posted by pracowity at 7:19 AM on January 16, 2007
I would tell her if I were you, but don't expect her to listen. Just make it clear that you're concerned for her, and that if the consequences were any less dire (untreated diabetes?!) you'd gladly mind your own business.
I'd probably also report him to whatever the licensing board in your state is, but only if you know for certain that he's doing the things you allege. The board might not do anything either, but at least you'll have done what you can. Perhaps not everyone would advise this, but I have a short fuse when it comes to irresponsible practitioners (coming from a family of responsible ones).
posted by AV at 7:21 AM on January 16, 2007
I'd probably also report him to whatever the licensing board in your state is, but only if you know for certain that he's doing the things you allege. The board might not do anything either, but at least you'll have done what you can. Perhaps not everyone would advise this, but I have a short fuse when it comes to irresponsible practitioners (coming from a family of responsible ones).
posted by AV at 7:21 AM on January 16, 2007
You may also want to see if you can do some more research to provide her with some viable alternatives to this doctor when you talk to her. Many people turn away from traditional medicine when they find that the usual treatments for their conditions either don't work for them or have unacceptable side effects. Modern medicine is a wonderful thing, but it can also be frustrating.
Are there better treatments for her conditions? Specialists in your area who might be able to help her without suggesting that she get life-altering, dangerous surgery? She's likely quite afraid, and if you can give her some positive evidence that she can be successfully treated, that might help steer her away from quacks trying to take her money.
Frankly, I'd dump any doctor who suggested that bariatric surgery is a good idea too. There are no randomized, controlled long-term clinical studies on bariatric surgery. The fatality rate from the surgery alone is somewhere around 2 percent, and at least 20 percent of patients develop serious complications. There's also no real, long-term evidence that it works to stave off the negative health effects associated with obesity. So I don't at all blame her for not wanting to go that route.
posted by decathecting at 7:22 AM on January 16, 2007
Are there better treatments for her conditions? Specialists in your area who might be able to help her without suggesting that she get life-altering, dangerous surgery? She's likely quite afraid, and if you can give her some positive evidence that she can be successfully treated, that might help steer her away from quacks trying to take her money.
Frankly, I'd dump any doctor who suggested that bariatric surgery is a good idea too. There are no randomized, controlled long-term clinical studies on bariatric surgery. The fatality rate from the surgery alone is somewhere around 2 percent, and at least 20 percent of patients develop serious complications. There's also no real, long-term evidence that it works to stave off the negative health effects associated with obesity. So I don't at all blame her for not wanting to go that route.
posted by decathecting at 7:22 AM on January 16, 2007
You need to express your concerns so that they come over as concerns, without seeming to tell her she's stupid or needs telling what to do.
Don't say "That so-called doctor you love so much is a complete quack, and if you don't listen to me you'll live to regret it (or maybe not, come to that)".
Say "I've noticed you feel much happier with Dr X. I can't help wondering whether he's OK on the conventional side, though - I'm not sure he should strictly be doing some of the things he does. Would it mess up your treatment if you had some conventional medicine as well, so as to get the best of both worlds?"
posted by Phanx at 7:27 AM on January 16, 2007
Don't say "That so-called doctor you love so much is a complete quack, and if you don't listen to me you'll live to regret it (or maybe not, come to that)".
Say "I've noticed you feel much happier with Dr X. I can't help wondering whether he's OK on the conventional side, though - I'm not sure he should strictly be doing some of the things he does. Would it mess up your treatment if you had some conventional medicine as well, so as to get the best of both worlds?"
posted by Phanx at 7:27 AM on January 16, 2007
I detest alternative medicine, so I'd normally be loath to suggest this, but how about you try calling other nearby chiropractors and as diplomatically as possible explain that you're concerned her health is being compromised by a shoddy practitioner? See if you can find a chiropractor who she can see who will offer her the sort of care and support she's after but who will also give her better advice and hopefully encourage her to still see a proper doctor.
This may turn out to be very difficult - I can imagine there might be confidentiality issues that would get in the way, and the chiropractors you call might not want to tread on the turf of a colleague.
And yes, turn the quack in to any relevant authorities.
posted by edd at 7:31 AM on January 16, 2007
This may turn out to be very difficult - I can imagine there might be confidentiality issues that would get in the way, and the chiropractors you call might not want to tread on the turf of a colleague.
And yes, turn the quack in to any relevant authorities.
posted by edd at 7:31 AM on January 16, 2007
Seconding Quackwatch, and a sister site, ChiroWatch.
It is truly egregious how many cases there are like this. "Alternative" medicine has become the greatest con game out there. People are dying and getting sicker as a result. Modern scientific medicine is not perfect, by a long shot. Indeed, its delivery is a total clusterf**k that needs urgent attention. But the solution is not pseudoscientific quackery. There is NO scientific basis for chiropractice, and even though some people say they get relief (almost always for musculo-skeletal pain) from some pragmatic chiropracters who know their limits, they deliver nothing more than a fancy, dangerous massage. (Yes, people have died from manipulation accidents.) The rest is placebo effect at best.
Unfortunately, it sounds like your friend has many other emotional issues that make here a target for victimization by these scammers. It is precisely for this reason that we must stop these people legally in this country. They prey on the gullible and frightened.
posted by spitbull at 7:55 AM on January 16, 2007 [1 favorite]
It is truly egregious how many cases there are like this. "Alternative" medicine has become the greatest con game out there. People are dying and getting sicker as a result. Modern scientific medicine is not perfect, by a long shot. Indeed, its delivery is a total clusterf**k that needs urgent attention. But the solution is not pseudoscientific quackery. There is NO scientific basis for chiropractice, and even though some people say they get relief (almost always for musculo-skeletal pain) from some pragmatic chiropracters who know their limits, they deliver nothing more than a fancy, dangerous massage. (Yes, people have died from manipulation accidents.) The rest is placebo effect at best.
Unfortunately, it sounds like your friend has many other emotional issues that make here a target for victimization by these scammers. It is precisely for this reason that we must stop these people legally in this country. They prey on the gullible and frightened.
posted by spitbull at 7:55 AM on January 16, 2007 [1 favorite]
Good luck with this. Just like religion, people believe this sort of thing with an irrational fervor, and there's likely no changing their minds. My recent attempt to suggest to a friend that his "healer" friend might perhaps be taking advantage of people resulted in the suggestion that I am "not open to the universe."
posted by M.C. Lo-Carb! at 8:06 AM on January 16, 2007
posted by M.C. Lo-Carb! at 8:06 AM on January 16, 2007
I do not detest alternative medicine but this is horrible.
I would certainly turn this guy in to whoever I could.
The conversation with your friend, and yes I think you should have one, will be tricky. I would probably start out by saying something like, "This guy is giving you treatment for a few different issues. I guess you have some trust in him. If you don't get the improvements in your health that you desire how will you feel? I know there is always the possibility of a bad result even when you have made the best decision you can. Do you feel confident that you are making the best decision based on what you know? What convinces you?". This may allow her to to examine her own decision making and possibly change some of it. Frankly though not much is going to change until she changes her own attitudes towards science and authority.
I am certainly sympathetic to those who feel that we give experts too much authority over our own lives but still, there is a time and a place for respecting the knowledge of others. After all part of what gives science its power is that statements are independently verified. A quack who works off of unacknowledged theories is a far more authoritarian figure than any doctor who works from the foundation of common, established knowledge. Perhaps pointing that out to her at the right time might help.
posted by BigSky at 8:08 AM on January 16, 2007
I would certainly turn this guy in to whoever I could.
The conversation with your friend, and yes I think you should have one, will be tricky. I would probably start out by saying something like, "This guy is giving you treatment for a few different issues. I guess you have some trust in him. If you don't get the improvements in your health that you desire how will you feel? I know there is always the possibility of a bad result even when you have made the best decision you can. Do you feel confident that you are making the best decision based on what you know? What convinces you?". This may allow her to to examine her own decision making and possibly change some of it. Frankly though not much is going to change until she changes her own attitudes towards science and authority.
I am certainly sympathetic to those who feel that we give experts too much authority over our own lives but still, there is a time and a place for respecting the knowledge of others. After all part of what gives science its power is that statements are independently verified. A quack who works off of unacknowledged theories is a far more authoritarian figure than any doctor who works from the foundation of common, established knowledge. Perhaps pointing that out to her at the right time might help.
posted by BigSky at 8:08 AM on January 16, 2007
Seconding helping her find a new, sane chiro. Chiropractors are supposed to advise you to seek conventional doctors where appropriate. A good one will.
Here's a list of state licensure boards so that you can report her current disaster.
posted by desuetude at 9:02 AM on January 16, 2007
Here's a list of state licensure boards so that you can report her current disaster.
posted by desuetude at 9:02 AM on January 16, 2007
Best answer: "Alternative" medicine has become the greatest con game out there. People are dying and getting sicker as a result.
This is exactly the sort of thing you want to, at all costs, avoid saying - or even implying - to your friend. For one thing, it isn't true. But much more importantly for your purposes, it's going to paint you - in her eyes - as close minded and arrogant. There are quack alt providers just as there are quack mainstream providers, sure. But if she thinks you’re trying to tell her that one group is a bunch of crooks and the other is a bunch of saints, it won’t do either of you any good.
I can tell you from personal experience that the standard mainstream medical advice regarding blood sugar problems and obesity is so discouraging and feels so inadquate that any sane person would have to think "Is this all I can do? We've got to be missing something here" and start looking around for different ideas. So you're going to run into a huge problem if you tell her anything that she might interpret as "You shouldn't consider different ideas. You should just do what your mainstream doctor tells you."
Now, of course, that's not what you're saying. You're saying that this particular set of ideas from this particular practitioner is a load of BS. But she might not be able to differentiate between the two.
You might consider suggesting to her that there are plenty of other non-mainstream healthcare providers out there who could offer her a wide range of ideas and options. Tell her that if she's going to go the non-mainstream route, she should take full advantage, do some comparison shopping, some reading. This way, you’re not telling her “You’re wrong.” You’re telling her, “Maybe you’re on the right track. Here, let me help you.” You’re not telling her “give up control, limit your options.” You’re telling her “take back control, expand your options.”
In my experience, the alt practitioners who are worth the time and money are the ones who are, to borrow a term, open source. They tell you up front what methods they use and where they get their ideas. They'll even point you towards books or web sites that lay out in detail their standard treatment plans for specific disorders. Furthermore, they generally use non-proprietary, non-prescription treatments. You can often try some of their remedies without ever paying the doctor in question a dime. (Though you may be out twenty or thirty bucks to your local health food store). Also, you can often find other pracitioners who use similar methods. Again, it's open source: when something works, they share the information with others who, if it works for them as well, pass it on down the line. In a universe like this, it’s possible to learn a fair amount about what you’re getting into before you’re hip deep. It’s also possible to stand three or four very different ideas shoulder-to-shoulder and decide which one looks most promising.
So...
Since you've pretty much concluded that the "chiro = bad" approach isn't going to work, you might consider an "Open source = good" approach. She has shown some (perhaps not enough, but some) interest in looking for new ideas. If you could encourage her in this pursuit, maybe she'd find approaches and practitioners she likes better than the chiro in question.
But, if you can't talk her into pursuing other options and you're genuinely concerned about her health, I think you might, as others have suggested, have to dime this guy out.
posted by Clay201 at 9:10 AM on January 16, 2007 [1 favorite]
This is exactly the sort of thing you want to, at all costs, avoid saying - or even implying - to your friend. For one thing, it isn't true. But much more importantly for your purposes, it's going to paint you - in her eyes - as close minded and arrogant. There are quack alt providers just as there are quack mainstream providers, sure. But if she thinks you’re trying to tell her that one group is a bunch of crooks and the other is a bunch of saints, it won’t do either of you any good.
I can tell you from personal experience that the standard mainstream medical advice regarding blood sugar problems and obesity is so discouraging and feels so inadquate that any sane person would have to think "Is this all I can do? We've got to be missing something here" and start looking around for different ideas. So you're going to run into a huge problem if you tell her anything that she might interpret as "You shouldn't consider different ideas. You should just do what your mainstream doctor tells you."
Now, of course, that's not what you're saying. You're saying that this particular set of ideas from this particular practitioner is a load of BS. But she might not be able to differentiate between the two.
You might consider suggesting to her that there are plenty of other non-mainstream healthcare providers out there who could offer her a wide range of ideas and options. Tell her that if she's going to go the non-mainstream route, she should take full advantage, do some comparison shopping, some reading. This way, you’re not telling her “You’re wrong.” You’re telling her, “Maybe you’re on the right track. Here, let me help you.” You’re not telling her “give up control, limit your options.” You’re telling her “take back control, expand your options.”
In my experience, the alt practitioners who are worth the time and money are the ones who are, to borrow a term, open source. They tell you up front what methods they use and where they get their ideas. They'll even point you towards books or web sites that lay out in detail their standard treatment plans for specific disorders. Furthermore, they generally use non-proprietary, non-prescription treatments. You can often try some of their remedies without ever paying the doctor in question a dime. (Though you may be out twenty or thirty bucks to your local health food store). Also, you can often find other pracitioners who use similar methods. Again, it's open source: when something works, they share the information with others who, if it works for them as well, pass it on down the line. In a universe like this, it’s possible to learn a fair amount about what you’re getting into before you’re hip deep. It’s also possible to stand three or four very different ideas shoulder-to-shoulder and decide which one looks most promising.
So...
Since you've pretty much concluded that the "chiro = bad" approach isn't going to work, you might consider an "Open source = good" approach. She has shown some (perhaps not enough, but some) interest in looking for new ideas. If you could encourage her in this pursuit, maybe she'd find approaches and practitioners she likes better than the chiro in question.
But, if you can't talk her into pursuing other options and you're genuinely concerned about her health, I think you might, as others have suggested, have to dime this guy out.
posted by Clay201 at 9:10 AM on January 16, 2007 [1 favorite]
Be prepared for her to respond to your research with something akin to "He's a Healer! What does the FDA know? They're trying to keep his knowledge from going mainstream."
Also, maybe the American Chiropractic Association would have more information and resources for you. Their explanation of what is chiropractic is very good.
posted by onhazier at 9:40 AM on January 16, 2007
Also, maybe the American Chiropractic Association would have more information and resources for you. Their explanation of what is chiropractic is very good.
posted by onhazier at 9:40 AM on January 16, 2007
Tell her the truth. If she's anything like most patients of quacks, she will be very angry at you and it might even ruin your friendship. But at least you won't feel guilty when you go to her funeral.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 10:49 AM on January 16, 2007
posted by Optimus Chyme at 10:49 AM on January 16, 2007
It's not uncommon for non-suck chiros to also be nutritionists. (See Clay201's advice re: proprietary supplements.) This may be a good angle for helping convince her that there are other, more qualified alternative practitioners.
posted by desuetude at 11:10 AM on January 16, 2007
posted by desuetude at 11:10 AM on January 16, 2007
Are you kidding? You've got to tell her. Just tell her you looked into the guy, and what you found was disturbing to you. You're telling her because you care about her.
posted by xammerboy at 11:14 AM on January 16, 2007
posted by xammerboy at 11:14 AM on January 16, 2007
Mod note: please please please do not turn this into a "chiros are quacks" discussion, it's not necessary to answer the question
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:22 AM on January 16, 2007
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:22 AM on January 16, 2007
Clearly, your friend's situation is extreme. If two doctors are suggesting stomach surgery, they must believe that her not having surgery is riskier than not having it.
This practitioner can surely rebut anything you say about his add, autism, and weight loss methods, since conventional doctors don't all agree on those. I would concentrate on talking about her diabetes -- not only because it can do a huge amount of physical damage, but because there are universally accepted objective tests that show if blood sugar is being controlled. As a first step, do you think you can get her to admit that glucose level can be measured, and that it's an indication of whether the diabetes is under control? If so, maybe you can persuade her to do that as an adjunct to the quack's treatment.
Her husband is allowing himself to be taken in because he doesn't believe anything else is going to help his wife. To date, she hasn't been successful in losing weight and balancing blood sugar. He knows that obesity and uncontrolled diabetes will kill his wife, but he's as desperate as she is.
posted by wryly at 11:55 AM on January 16, 2007
This practitioner can surely rebut anything you say about his add, autism, and weight loss methods, since conventional doctors don't all agree on those. I would concentrate on talking about her diabetes -- not only because it can do a huge amount of physical damage, but because there are universally accepted objective tests that show if blood sugar is being controlled. As a first step, do you think you can get her to admit that glucose level can be measured, and that it's an indication of whether the diabetes is under control? If so, maybe you can persuade her to do that as an adjunct to the quack's treatment.
Her husband is allowing himself to be taken in because he doesn't believe anything else is going to help his wife. To date, she hasn't been successful in losing weight and balancing blood sugar. He knows that obesity and uncontrolled diabetes will kill his wife, but he's as desperate as she is.
posted by wryly at 11:55 AM on January 16, 2007
Sorry... the docs think surgery is less risky than NO surgery.
posted by wryly at 11:56 AM on January 16, 2007
posted by wryly at 11:56 AM on January 16, 2007
Response by poster: Wryly, you're right. She's almost 300 lbs and it's making her sick.
Some great advice here...thanks all. The last thing I want is for the conversation to become an argument about the evil mainstream medical establishment trying to silence her noble doctor. I am going to see her this week and I will keep the fous on her health and her progress and how she is monitoring her glucose etc. I think I will contact the state chrio board as well. I'll let you know how it goes!
posted by Biblio at 1:17 PM on January 16, 2007
Some great advice here...thanks all. The last thing I want is for the conversation to become an argument about the evil mainstream medical establishment trying to silence her noble doctor. I am going to see her this week and I will keep the fous on her health and her progress and how she is monitoring her glucose etc. I think I will contact the state chrio board as well. I'll let you know how it goes!
posted by Biblio at 1:17 PM on January 16, 2007
I'd report the bastard. He's a quack, pure and simple.
posted by Afroblanco at 7:43 PM on January 16, 2007
posted by Afroblanco at 7:43 PM on January 16, 2007
The fatality rate from the surgery alone is somewhere around 2 percent, and at least 20 percent of patients develop serious complications.
Then again, the mortality rate from obesity and chronic Type II diabetes is a lot higher. Not that she should necessarily go that route, but I wouldn't dismiss a doctor simply for suggesting it.
posted by radioamy at 7:28 PM on January 18, 2007
Then again, the mortality rate from obesity and chronic Type II diabetes is a lot higher. Not that she should necessarily go that route, but I wouldn't dismiss a doctor simply for suggesting it.
posted by radioamy at 7:28 PM on January 18, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by miss tea at 7:00 AM on January 16, 2007