Possession & the Art of Strategy: Legal advice and karma adjustment?

December 26, 2006 4:15 PM

This happened to somebody I care about, who could really use a break. I'm trying to help him figure out his options. Money is the biggest factor, the cheapest solution is best. Story: On Xmas day, a young guy is on his way home from family holiday drives a pickup truck with big tires through a snooty part of town. He gets pulled over for littering (flicking a butt out the window).

Cop becomes belligerent, claims to have seen a pipe, searches truck. After searchign through xmas gifts & cards, cop finds pipe & small amount of marijuana at bottom of backpack, becomes very angry and accuses guy of being a dealer, xmas gift money being from selling, handcuffs are involved, etc. Guy ends up almost getting towed, but cop ends up letting him go with a ticket for littering and possession. Guy will have to appear in court in same town to answer possession charge.

So here are the questions: 1) Did guy flick butt with middle finger, unconsciously provoking cop? 2) Feels a little "illegal search" to me, is it cheaper to pay fine or get a lawyer and try to negotiate? This town is known for having an arrogant police force, so factor that into the cost equation 3) How much should this indiscretion cost? 4) Is it just me, or is this kind of a mean thing to do to a kid on Xmas day?

posted by anonymous to Law & Government (37 answers total)

Much will depend on the attitude of the kid during this incident.
posted by desuetude at 4:28 PM on December 26, 2006

You haven't actually given much pertinent information in order to get any meaningful answers. What city/state is this in? Did your friend consent to the search? How much pot was actually found? Does he have any priors? And why would strangers on the internet have the first clue as to whether or not your friend used his middle finger to flick his cigarette out the window?
posted by scody at 4:29 PM on December 26, 2006

1) In a town known for having an "arrogant police force", flicking a cigarette butt out the window in view of a cop is always a bad idea. In fact, it's a bad idea anywhere.

2) It's almost impossible to prove an illegal search when drugs are found.

3) Depends on the municipality

4) It's just you.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 4:30 PM on December 26, 2006

Wow, I know Ask Metafilter is useful, but how are we supposed to know if the guy flicked the butt with his middle finger?

The wisest option is to get the best lawyer he can afford. There are so many variables involved. If there is a dispute about the search, he'll need one. Did the officer claim probable cause or did he ask your friend if he had consent to search the vehicle?

I know this guy is your friend, but I don't think what the officer did is mean at all. Your friend shouldn't have littered (sorry, but people throwing cigarette butts out of car windows is a pet peeve of mine) and he shouldn't have been carrying a pipe and marijuana around while littering.
posted by MegoSteve at 4:32 PM on December 26, 2006

I don't think he is asking IF he used his middle finger but telling us that the DID use his middle finger. The question is... If flicking the butt with his middle finger could "provoke" an officer?
posted by nimsey lou at 4:39 PM on December 26, 2006

Tell your friend to pay his fine/community service with a smile on his face, and then get some education in the law and how to deal with such situations in the future.
posted by sophist at 4:42 PM on December 26, 2006

Pay the fine. He didn't get taken in, so things could have been much worse. Um, who does illegal stuff when carrying? Really, he got off easy.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:47 PM on December 26, 2006

1) I have no idea, but it seems irrelevent given that, whatever caused it, the cop was provoked.

2) What crash said. IANAL, but since this is just a ticket, I'm guessing that the longterm legal ramifications are minor. It might be worth just paying so he can be done with it. But check with a lawyer who's familiar with the legal code in your area.

3) It shouldn't cost anything, as far as I'm concerned, but "should" goes out the window when you're a target in the War on Drugs. The real question is "How much does this cost?"

4) Sure, maybe he's an asshole, but cops have a right to be assholes. Even on Christmas.
posted by dhammond at 4:58 PM on December 26, 2006

Sadly, this appears to be a valid search under the 4th amendment. None of this is legal advice, but it seems like a pretty straightforward problem.

A police officer is allowed to search the passenger compartment of a stopped vehicle and containers inside (excluding the trunk) incident to a custodial arrest. However, a police officer cannot perform this search without consent if he/she is only issuing a citation. Yet, most cops will get around this by offering people the choice of either a voluntary search or a custodial arrest with a search that follows. So either way, if you get pulled over for an arrestable offense, the cop can search your car and most people 'voluntarily' let them.

The only way the friend can exclude this evidence is if the jurisdiction in question has a statute or state constitutional protection that limits what offenses for which a police officer can arrest someone. In that case, a police officer could not search the car without his consent. However, if littering is a misdemeanor for which an individual could be arrested, as I suspect it is, then your friend is pretty much out of luck.

So, I doubt he could fight this in court. If it's just a fine, he should thank his lucky stars that he's not facing jail time. He probably should get a lawyer anyway, to see what his options are, and to see if there's an ADR program where he could work community service or something and get the charge wiped.
posted by allen.spaulding at 5:58 PM on December 26, 2006

So here are the questions: 1) Did guy flick butt with middle finger, unconsciously provoking cop? 2) Feels a little "illegal search" to me, is it cheaper to pay fine or get a lawyer and try to negotiate?

The police have to ask permission or get a warrant, if they didn't ask then it's illegal. But probably they did ask, and your friend didn't realize he could say no. That's how it usually works.
posted by delmoi at 6:10 PM on December 26, 2006

Also, we need to know what state. Unless he was carrying a huge amount, this is a state issue, and different states have different rules. In one state you could end up in jail, in another you'd just get a ticket or a warning.
posted by delmoi at 6:14 PM on December 26, 2006

delmoi: The police have to ask permission or get a warrant, if they didn't ask then it's illegal. But probably they did ask, and your friend didn't realize he could say no. That's how it usually works.

Yes. As I mentioned above, the police probably offered to arrest the friend and then search his car (you don't need a warrant for a search incident to an arrest) or to search with the friend's position. Either way, you can't really say no if you've been pulled over for an arrestable offense.
posted by allen.spaulding at 6:19 PM on December 26, 2006

"Sure, maybe he's an asshole, but cops have a right to be assholes."

This is absolutely incorrect. Cops are typically assholes because they have power complex issues.

Cops do not have a "right" to be assholes. They are assholes because their job gives them power over other individuals. Those who abuse this power is what makes some of us treat all "authority" figures with contempt.
posted by camworld at 6:47 PM on December 26, 2006

Seconding the pay-it-with-a-smile advice. It happens to the best of us, and within months, it'll be little more than a funny story you'll tell friends for years. Don't ask me how I know this.
posted by M.C. Lo-Carb! at 7:18 PM on December 26, 2006

Smokers who flick their cigarette butts out the window go far beyond being a pet peeve for me. And smokers wonder why they get such a bad rap. Grrr...

Considering the littering and the possession, I'd say your friend got off easy with just a ticket. Pay it and be profoundly grateful.
posted by browse at 7:39 PM on December 26, 2006

This is absolutely incorrect. Cops are typically assholes because they have power complex issues.

Cops do not have a "right" to be assholes. They are assholes because their job gives them power over other individuals. Those who abuse this power is what makes some of us treat all "authority" figures with contempt.

I really take issue with the statement that cops are typically assholes. If you have had enough run ins with cops to feel like you have a large enough sample size to support that opinion, then you are probably an asshole to be stupid enough to have that many run-ins with the law.

The guy was just doing his job. ON CHRISTMAS. It's probably likely that the police officer felt compelled to work on Christmas for the holiday pay, but that doesn't make it suck any less to work on Christmas. With that said, it's not an excuse to be an asshole, but I can see it make someone cranky when they are working while some pothead punk is driving merrily around with a carload of loot (and weed) and flicking butts out the window. It also kind of seems that the OP thinks any cop who wouldn't let his friend walk away sans ticket on Christmas would be an asshole.

I don't know your friend, but it's pretty stupid to flick a cigarette out the window (with your middle finger) with a cop behind you. It's even more stupid to do so when you've got pot in your truck. The cop was doing his or her job. Get over it.
posted by tastybrains at 8:35 PM on December 26, 2006

I got stopped by a cop just a few days ago for having my license light out. It happened that I didn't have my driver's license on me (I'd misplaced it). I was very polite, wrote down my information so he could look me up, and I went on my way in a few minutes. Considering that driving without a license for any reason is generally against the law, he was remarkably forgiving. Very few people (myself included) take the time to put up posts about those kinds of events.

I agree that there are cops with issues, just like there are people with issues in every profession. I imagine cops must deal with assholes more than most.

I have close to zero sympathy for your friend. If "money is a factor" perhaps your friend should stop spending his cash on drugs.

Whatever you may think about the drug laws, they are there on the books, fine. If you're the sort of person who would be in trouble if you were stopped by the cops, you don't want to stick your neck out. So don't go around breaking other laws like littering. I know plenty of people who have smoked pot for decades, and none of them have managed to get themselves hit with a possession charge.

Also, very few people "become" belligerent without provocation. How did your friend react to being stopped? Was he polite and friendly with the cop? That goes a long way.
posted by Deathalicious at 9:57 PM on December 26, 2006

The lesson is clear and really anyone with a functioning brain ought to know : if you are driving with drugs in a vehicle, don't be flipping cigarettes (with middle finger or other) out of the window.

There are deeper legal lessons to be learned about things like search and seizure, but only a lawyer licensed in THAT jurisdiction ought to teach them AFTER hearing ALL of the relevant facts.
posted by toucano at 10:29 PM on December 26, 2006

I once gave a guy the finger by accident because I get the best range, speed, and accuracy when I flick with the middle finger. Suddenly I realized that if I do this with my window rolled down just an inch or so, it really looks like I'm flipping the bird. I never knew so many people were annoyed by flickers, and I'm going to stop doing it now.

I think this missed by a hair: I really take issue with the statement that cops are typically assholes. I think camworld was saying that people with power complexes might be drawn to the law enforcement profession, not that all cops are power-mad Nazis.

Paying the ticket and counting blessings is probably the best short term advice.
posted by Area Control at 10:33 PM on December 26, 2006

This young guy was littering and in possession, and got busted for littering and possession. He was also probably provoking an antagonistic police officer. His cheapest, smartest option is to learn a lesson here and not do those things anymore.
posted by anildash at 11:39 PM on December 26, 2006

Here's my Christmas cop story for what it's worth: I went to WaWa on Christmas night around 11:30 PM. The cashier covered me 15 cents because I only had three and wished me a Merry Christmas, so I was in really good spirits. But then as I pulled out, a cop pulled me over for having a broken tail light. Only half of the passenger one was out, the small portion. The first question he asked was whether I'd been drinking, and didn't even mention the light until I asked if I'd missed a stop sign or something. I was clearly sober, and hadn't had anything to drink, but he persisted, "tell me now 'cause I'm gonna find out later." I was more than suprised when he came back with a breathalyser, and asked me to take it, because "sometimes cars give off the odour of a hard liquor, and someone your age (18) out at this hour ..." I guess my car smells like hard liquor. Anyways, he told me he was the most Christmas spirited cop I'd come across and didn't bother writing me a warning for the light, after I blew into his straw thing for him. I was pretty upset, but polite nonetheless, thanks officer. I definitely think these cops have a bit of the old Ebenezer in 'em, and it is definitely not right.
posted by book at 6:04 AM on December 27, 2006

That cop was Ebenezer because he was worried you'd been drinking? He was doing his job. Sounds like you were only slightly inconvenienced.
posted by agregoli at 6:46 AM on December 27, 2006

I think camworld was saying that people with power complexes might be drawn to the law enforcement profession, not that all cops are power-mad Nazis.

That's not what he said, but if it's what he meant, then, well, sorry. But I have a lot more sympathy for someone who has to work on Christmas and deal with morons like OPs friend than I do for said friend or someone who is mildly inconvenienced by having to take a breathalizer on Christmas.
posted by tastybrains at 6:58 AM on December 27, 2006 [1 favorite]

I don't really understand people who defend rude or unconstitutional behavior by the police. They are public servants. I personally don't see their job as being punishing those who break the law, but serving and protecting those who follow it. It may suck that they have to work on Christmas, but I don't think that gives them a right to be uncivil or to do things that are not within their rights.

My advice to your friend who got in trouble is to pay the fine and learn to keep a low profile. America isn't the kind of place where you can do what you want and keep your rights anymore. Anyone who wants that kind of place could consider moving to Canada, I hear the police there take a less adversarial attitude towards the general public.
posted by jefeweiss at 7:13 AM on December 27, 2006

Find out the long term consequences of the ticket. Monetary consequences, yes, but also non-monetary -- will just paying the possession ticket hurt his career, etc. Long term may not seem important now, but it might be one day.

Weigh those consequences against the cost of a lawyer now. Don't guess at the cost - go see the lawyer, see what he can do and what it will cost.

If he's a first time offender, does the jurisdiction offer a diversion program?

I'm not your, or his, lawyer, etc.
posted by KAS at 7:27 AM on December 27, 2006

This young guy was littering and in possession, and got busted for littering and possession. He was also probably provoking an antagonistic police officer. His cheapest, smartest option is to learn a lesson here and not do those things anymore.

What anildash said. Yes, cops are often assholes (and yes, assholes are often drawn to the professon), but that has little to do with this. Your friend is an idiot, or at least plays one on the highway. Time to suck it up and learn a lesson.
posted by languagehat at 8:02 AM on December 27, 2006

I don't really understand people who defend rude or unconstitutional behavior by the police. They are public servants. I personally don't see their job as being punishing those who break the law, but serving and protecting those who follow it.

The OP didn't indicate anything the police officer did was rude or unconstitutional. All he did was give the guy a ticket for breaking the law. In fact, he let OP's friend off easy.

It's also not a police officer's job to be warm & fuzzy to people who are breaking the law. It is a dangerous and thankless job, and it's not their job to be cuddly teddybears to let people who are breaking the law go on with their day with a smile and a slap on the wrist.
posted by tastybrains at 8:04 AM on December 27, 2006

If you have had enough run ins with cops to feel like you have a large enough sample size to support that opinion, then you are probably an asshole to be stupid enough to have that many run-ins with the law.

There are plenty of other ways to glean this info.

And yes, cops can actually be belligerent simply because of what they perceive to be an affront to their pride, before they even talk to the person they pull over. (Anecdote: I once passed a cop, and he thought it was a no-passing area (but it was really 2 lanes) and he was absolutely belligerent with me before I even spoke one word. I won in court.)

As for your questions, (1) I'm not sure how we can answer (1) from your facts. (2) Doesn't sound like an illegal search to me. That's our 4th Amendment as whittled down for you. (3) Cost? A few hundred? I'd say up to $1000, actually. And anyway, he needs to pay whatever he needs to pay to get this behind him. He did break at least 2 laws. (4) Maybe, but who cares? What's done is done. Maybe it was a gift - maybe your friend will learn to be smarter, at the very least.

Another anecdote, re: smartness. I was recently driving the Miami-Key West route, and was in a section where there are 2 lanes, and a cop was in one lane going precisely the speed limit. We all dawdled along behind the cop, but one idiot decided to pass the cop, at about 1 mile over the speed limit. He got pulled over. (And the rest of us sped up and went on our merry way.)
posted by Amizu at 8:19 AM on December 27, 2006

A drug conviction could potentially affect his eligilibility for employment or for such things as student financial aid, in the future. Criminal defense lawyers don't come cheap, but the average will writer and real estate closer isn't the kind of lawyer your pal needs for this. See a pro, soon, and fight this. Be prepared to pony up $$ for doing so. Saving a few bucks on attorney fees now could cost the young man many, many times that savings in lost opportunities over the course of his life.
posted by paulsc at 10:50 AM on December 27, 2006

I suggest going along with the advice to lawyer up. Even minor drug offenses can have unexpected ramifications.
posted by TedW at 10:57 AM on December 27, 2006

Call the Bar Association for your city, be concise about the charge/ticket (don't go into the speculative details) and ask to be referred to lawyers who handle these types of cases and who have experience in the jurisdiction, see if you can get at least three names. When calling the attorney's office, again, be concise (only state the charge/ticket info) and ask if there is a free consultation. A good attorney will be able to explain the various possible outcomes and can also put into context the ramifications of being found guilty. Also, by concentrating on attorneys in the jurisdiction, they can tell you what usually happens in these cases and perhaps may even know or have experience with the judge assigned to hear the case.

If it were a simple traffic violation or littering, I'd say skip the attorney. But with possible possession penalties, consulting an attorney who understands how these cases are prosecuted, can save your young friend from future headaches when it comes to job opportunities, etc. People make mistakes, and handling our mistakes well and owning up to them builds character. Sorry to sound cheesy, but now that "the law" in involved, your friend should think like they do until his trouble has passed.
posted by kuppajava at 10:59 AM on December 27, 2006

The police have to ask permission or get a warrant, if they didn't ask then it's illegal.

Not accurate. If the officer can reasonably claim to have seen or smelled marijuana then he doesn't need permission or a warrant.

Your friend got off light compared to what could have happened. He can consult a lawyer but I doubt the illegal search angle will fly. He should stop being a litterbug and watch the video made by Flex Your Rights for future encounters, if they happen.
posted by phearlez at 11:25 AM on December 27, 2006

You always have the right to end police interviews. And you have the right not to answer any questions that they ask, such as "Where are you going? Where are you coming from?" and other innocuous stuff. YOU MUST BE POLITE, and courteous, and as calm as possible when you do this. You should look the officer in the eye and calmly say "Officer, I'm going to choose not to answer your questions right now."

Also, if an officer asks you step out of the vehicle, you may elect not to do so. YOU MUST BE POLITE, and courteous and as calm as possible. Just say "No thanks." Or "Sir, I can't tell: Are you ordering me out of the vehicle?" The officer will answer whether his request is an order or part of his investigation. Actually, he probably won't, he'll just repeat his offer "Why don't you just get out of the car and we'll talk about it... " You can (calmly) ask "Sir, are you ordering me out of the vehicle at this time?".

You may also ask "Sir, Am I free to leave?" at any point. The officer may not let you go. But he must answer truthfully. If he says no, you will probably be arrested anyway. But this will set you up for a good case later for the charges to be dropped for lack of evidence.

Here's a link that backs up these assertions, but I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. Link.

REMEMBER: You are (most probably) on video tape and audio tape during a stop like this. So act like it. You are also being taped when you perform any field sobriety tests, answer questions on the side of the road, and, if it happens, are driven somewhere in a police car. So don't call your friend and blab about what's happening to you. And don't tell the cop how you really feel about Jews.
posted by zpousman at 2:25 PM on December 27, 2006 [1 favorite]

Zspousman might be 100% right, but police officers often view refusal to answer questions as a serious reason to be suspicious. So it may not be good strategy for some. (But if your name is Rip Torn, go for it, man, cuz I can't get enough of those mugshots.) Cops like respect, and they have a dangerous job. Treat them with care.
posted by Area Control at 4:16 PM on December 27, 2006

I got stopped by a cop just a few days ago for having my license light out. It happened that I didn't have my driver's license on me (I'd misplaced it). I was very polite, wrote down my information so he could look me up, and I went on my way in a few minutes. Considering that driving without a license for any reason is generally against the law, he was remarkably forgiving. Very few people (myself included) take the time to put up posts about those kinds of events.

That makes no sense. Are you talking about your license plates? It's not against not having your drivers license with you is not the same thing as driving without a license. I was pulled over as a teenager without carrying my license a few times and none of the cops ever said anything about not having the card.

I have close to zero sympathy for your friend. If "money is a factor" perhaps your friend should stop spending his cash on drugs.

How does this answer the question, jackass?

Anyway, don't ever leave weed sitting around in your car. It should never be in your car unless it absolutely needs to be.
posted by delmoi at 9:50 AM on December 29, 2006

Delmoi, in some places, not having your license on you during a routine stop (like having a light out) can get you a heck of a hassling from an officer, who may suspect that you "don't have it with you" because you don't actually have one. And especially you're younger, you'll likely get a lecture, complete with scare tactics, about responsibility and whether or not you're up to something and whose car is this, anyway, blah blah blah, and perhaps be threatened with some sort of citation. (Whether that is an empty threat depends on the town.)

If Deathalicious had been all defensive when stopped, he could've gotten his car searched, etc., just like the OP. Instead, he was sent on his way in a routine fashion.

But yeah, the money/drugs comment was kind of dicky and off topic.
posted by desuetude at 10:36 AM on December 29, 2006

Sorry about the snipe drug comment. I know plenty of potheads who are nice, friendly, and get along, and then there are the others who always manage to get into trouble with the cops whenever they show up. I guess I was just getting a bit snarky and I apologize.
posted by Deathalicious at 11:16 PM on January 21, 2007