Talk about self-loathing...
December 11, 2006 3:51 PM Subscribe
I saw on the news tonight that there was a sect of radical orthodox Jews (some type of haredim? chasids?) attending the Holocaust denial conference in Tehran, Iran. I know some ultra-orthodox groups deny the legitimacy of Israel based on Scriptural reasons, are these the same guys? Who are they and what is their reasoning for denying the Holocaust?
I have only a passing familiarity with the terms used to talk about the various orthodox sects, so forgive me (and correct me!) if I am misusing any terms.
I have only a passing familiarity with the terms used to talk about the various orthodox sects, so forgive me (and correct me!) if I am misusing any terms.
They are the anti-Zionist group Neturei Karta or Aramaic for guardians of the city.
They protest the Israeli Day Parade in NYC every year, as well as any pro-Israel event.
It's unclear where Holocaust denial fits into their agenda though.
posted by jourman2 at 4:01 PM on December 11, 2006
They protest the Israeli Day Parade in NYC every year, as well as any pro-Israel event.
It's unclear where Holocaust denial fits into their agenda though.
posted by jourman2 at 4:01 PM on December 11, 2006
Response by poster: They were definitely attending as supporters of the Holocaust not being real, not as objectors. David Duke was also in attendance "to support free speech."
posted by Falconetti at 4:03 PM on December 11, 2006
posted by Falconetti at 4:03 PM on December 11, 2006
Best answer: Not quite. From the BBC:
a number of Jewish rabbis are also there. One, British Rabbi Ahron Cohen, said he had come to the conference to put the "Orthodox Jewish viewpoint" across.
"We certainly say there was a Holocaust, we lived through the Holocaust. But in no way can it be used as a justification for perpetrating unjust acts against the Palestinians," he said.
posted by A189Nut at 4:07 PM on December 11, 2006
a number of Jewish rabbis are also there. One, British Rabbi Ahron Cohen, said he had come to the conference to put the "Orthodox Jewish viewpoint" across.
"We certainly say there was a Holocaust, we lived through the Holocaust. But in no way can it be used as a justification for perpetrating unjust acts against the Palestinians," he said.
posted by A189Nut at 4:07 PM on December 11, 2006
What A189Nut said. My understanding is that their attendance is not due to them denying the Holocaust, but because they feel the Holocaust is used as an excuse to persecute Palestinians.
posted by Jimbob at 4:11 PM on December 11, 2006
posted by Jimbob at 4:11 PM on December 11, 2006
Response by poster: From jourman2's link:
When asked by reporters, the group also mentioned that they were not bothered by Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial. In an interview with Iranian television reporters, Rabbi Weiss remarked, "The Zionists use the Holocaust issue to their benefit. We, Jews who perished in the Holocaust, do not use it to advance our interests.
Perhaps this explains it or just deepens the mystery.
posted by Falconetti at 4:12 PM on December 11, 2006
When asked by reporters, the group also mentioned that they were not bothered by Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial. In an interview with Iranian television reporters, Rabbi Weiss remarked, "The Zionists use the Holocaust issue to their benefit. We, Jews who perished in the Holocaust, do not use it to advance our interests.
Perhaps this explains it or just deepens the mystery.
posted by Falconetti at 4:12 PM on December 11, 2006
Response by poster: A189Nut, should have previewed. That must be it. The news report implied they were deniers but didn't say so and I was overly hasty in reading too much into that. Thanks.
posted by Falconetti at 4:13 PM on December 11, 2006
posted by Falconetti at 4:13 PM on December 11, 2006
Some more background from one of the big Israeli newspapers Yediot Achronot here.
posted by jourman2 at 4:23 PM on December 11, 2006
posted by jourman2 at 4:23 PM on December 11, 2006
Cohen's views here
"We consider the Palestinians as the people with the right to govern in Palestine. The Zionist State known as “Israel” is a regime that has no right to exist. Its continuing existence is the underlying cause of the strife in Palestine.
We pray for a peaceful solution to the terrible and tragic impasse that exists, hopefully based on results brought about by moral, political and economic pressures imposed by the nations of the world.
We pray for an end to bloodshed and an end to the suffering of all innocent people - Jew and non-Jew alike - worldwide.
We are waiting for the annulment of Zionism and the peaceful dismantling of the Zionist regime, which will bring about an end to the suffering of the Palestinian people. We would welcome the opportunity to dwell in peace in the holy land under a rule, which is entirely in accordance with the wishes and aspirations of the Palestinian People."
A google search reveals many more statements from Cohen.
posted by A189Nut at 4:44 PM on December 11, 2006
"We consider the Palestinians as the people with the right to govern in Palestine. The Zionist State known as “Israel” is a regime that has no right to exist. Its continuing existence is the underlying cause of the strife in Palestine.
We pray for a peaceful solution to the terrible and tragic impasse that exists, hopefully based on results brought about by moral, political and economic pressures imposed by the nations of the world.
We pray for an end to bloodshed and an end to the suffering of all innocent people - Jew and non-Jew alike - worldwide.
We are waiting for the annulment of Zionism and the peaceful dismantling of the Zionist regime, which will bring about an end to the suffering of the Palestinian people. We would welcome the opportunity to dwell in peace in the holy land under a rule, which is entirely in accordance with the wishes and aspirations of the Palestinian People."
A google search reveals many more statements from Cohen.
posted by A189Nut at 4:44 PM on December 11, 2006
Best answer: These guys are at the very extreme end of the bell curve, and I don't know if I can do justice to their ideology. None the less, here goes.
Their ideological roots are in the "old Yishuv", the Jewish communities of Ottoman Palestine established before the birth of modern Zionism. The members of these communities saw their presence in the Holy Land (as they would have described it) as being a religious act. They weren't out to establish a state, they just wanted to live in a place that was fundamentally associated with their religion.
Modern Zionism was a predominantly secular response to European antisemitism, and at its core was the idea that a Jewish state was a cure or a solution for antisemitism: it would cure antisemitism by changing the popular image of Jews or it would solve antisemitism by providing a refuge. This inspired hitherto-unprecedented non-religious Jewish migration to Israel.
Suddenly the established ultra-Orthodox community was confronted with more-or-less secular Jews. As far as they were concerned these new immigrants were shockingly immoral and were flagrant violators of Jewish law. There was no tacit compromise like in Europe whereby the groups would be separate. Everything the new immigrants did was an affront - they broke the Sabbath, they dressed immodestly, they started using Hebrew (the language of prayer, study and scripture) for everyday purposes. The Old Yishuv found this really, really offensive - not only were these guys not religious, but they claimed to be Jewish in their non-religiosity.
Many religious Jews didn't have a problem with Zionism; some treated it as distinct from their religion while others embraced it. None the less, the literal and ideological descendants of the Old Yishuv are still here today and they include the group you asked about. When the State of Israel was established their position got crystallised and here it is (as best I can convey it):
A Jewish state will be established in Israel when the Messiah comes. The present one is merely a secular entity with no more theological significance than the old Ottoman regime or its British successor. It's spiritually worse because it purports to be Jewish and thereby distracts Jews from their focus on religious life. It promotes the idea that Jews are in charge of their own destiny, which is a heretical idea that prevents Jews from working for the coming of the Messiah through prayer and acts of religious observance.
This is where the Holocaust thing comes from: they don't deny the Holocaust, they say that it was a Divine response to Zionism which showed that Jews aren't in control of their own destiny, or it was a punishment for secular Zionism, or whatever. I don't think this is a logical position, it's just that they really, really dislike Zionism.
Now, most of these guys live lives that are very, very insular. They work low-level jobs, or their wives work while they study, or they are supported by charitable donations. They certainly don't have TV sets or stay in hotels or become media spokesmen or whatever. In fact, most of them don't speak English. I have a strong suspicion that the guys appearing in Iran are not really based in the communities they claim to represent. They certainly wouldn't have the funds to go to these conferences or whatever unless they received funds from outside these insular communities, and I'd have to presume that the funds come from the organisers of these "conferences" and "demonstrations" and so forth.
It's also remarkable how much they suck up to people that are clearly Jew-haters, but you know that.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:34 PM on December 11, 2006 [1 favorite]
Their ideological roots are in the "old Yishuv", the Jewish communities of Ottoman Palestine established before the birth of modern Zionism. The members of these communities saw their presence in the Holy Land (as they would have described it) as being a religious act. They weren't out to establish a state, they just wanted to live in a place that was fundamentally associated with their religion.
Modern Zionism was a predominantly secular response to European antisemitism, and at its core was the idea that a Jewish state was a cure or a solution for antisemitism: it would cure antisemitism by changing the popular image of Jews or it would solve antisemitism by providing a refuge. This inspired hitherto-unprecedented non-religious Jewish migration to Israel.
Suddenly the established ultra-Orthodox community was confronted with more-or-less secular Jews. As far as they were concerned these new immigrants were shockingly immoral and were flagrant violators of Jewish law. There was no tacit compromise like in Europe whereby the groups would be separate. Everything the new immigrants did was an affront - they broke the Sabbath, they dressed immodestly, they started using Hebrew (the language of prayer, study and scripture) for everyday purposes. The Old Yishuv found this really, really offensive - not only were these guys not religious, but they claimed to be Jewish in their non-religiosity.
Many religious Jews didn't have a problem with Zionism; some treated it as distinct from their religion while others embraced it. None the less, the literal and ideological descendants of the Old Yishuv are still here today and they include the group you asked about. When the State of Israel was established their position got crystallised and here it is (as best I can convey it):
A Jewish state will be established in Israel when the Messiah comes. The present one is merely a secular entity with no more theological significance than the old Ottoman regime or its British successor. It's spiritually worse because it purports to be Jewish and thereby distracts Jews from their focus on religious life. It promotes the idea that Jews are in charge of their own destiny, which is a heretical idea that prevents Jews from working for the coming of the Messiah through prayer and acts of religious observance.
This is where the Holocaust thing comes from: they don't deny the Holocaust, they say that it was a Divine response to Zionism which showed that Jews aren't in control of their own destiny, or it was a punishment for secular Zionism, or whatever. I don't think this is a logical position, it's just that they really, really dislike Zionism.
Now, most of these guys live lives that are very, very insular. They work low-level jobs, or their wives work while they study, or they are supported by charitable donations. They certainly don't have TV sets or stay in hotels or become media spokesmen or whatever. In fact, most of them don't speak English. I have a strong suspicion that the guys appearing in Iran are not really based in the communities they claim to represent. They certainly wouldn't have the funds to go to these conferences or whatever unless they received funds from outside these insular communities, and I'd have to presume that the funds come from the organisers of these "conferences" and "demonstrations" and so forth.
It's also remarkable how much they suck up to people that are clearly Jew-haters, but you know that.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:34 PM on December 11, 2006 [1 favorite]
I'd be curious to know how they justify their position that the Jewish state has no right to exist, given the tradition that G_d gave them the territory. Do they posit that the lease was revoked at some point? (destruction of the last temple, maybe?)
posted by Goofyy at 2:39 AM on December 12, 2006
posted by Goofyy at 2:39 AM on December 12, 2006
They don't think that it's the right state. The right state would be a messianic kingdom lead by an Orthodox Jewish king descended from King David and advised by a council of rabbis. That's the only state that's theologically privileged. As far as they're concerned the present one isn't a Jewish state, it's just a state with a lot of Jews. And the Jews that are calling the shots are mostly not religious, many are anti-religious, so they don't like it. And since a lot of Jews think it is a Jewish state, it distracts them from the true state of affairs: that the Jews are in a condition of exile even when living in Jerusalem, which will not change until the establishment of the messianic kingdom.
I very much doubt whether the stuff that these protestors were saying reflects the real views of these people. I don't think they're motivated by compassion for the Palestinians, for instance. It's all theology.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:44 AM on December 12, 2006
I very much doubt whether the stuff that these protestors were saying reflects the real views of these people. I don't think they're motivated by compassion for the Palestinians, for instance. It's all theology.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:44 AM on December 12, 2006
Joe started off well and then got carried away with slagging them off.
Their point is that Israel can't exist until the Messiah comes. So as far as they're concerned, Zionism is blasphemy.
In no logical way does this mean they're not sincere about their empathy with the Palestinians.
They're not a large group, but they're clearly aware of the visual impact of apparently-Orthodox men disavowing the state of Israel. It never fails to get attention (including here, if you think about it). As a classical 'pressure group' they're very interesting, imho.
posted by genghis at 4:01 AM on December 12, 2006
Their point is that Israel can't exist until the Messiah comes. So as far as they're concerned, Zionism is blasphemy.
In no logical way does this mean they're not sincere about their empathy with the Palestinians.
They're not a large group, but they're clearly aware of the visual impact of apparently-Orthodox men disavowing the state of Israel. It never fails to get attention (including here, if you think about it). As a classical 'pressure group' they're very interesting, imho.
posted by genghis at 4:01 AM on December 12, 2006
Here's an article that goes into some detail about the group:
Washington Post
posted by perpetualstroll at 11:36 PM on December 13, 2006
Washington Post
posted by perpetualstroll at 11:36 PM on December 13, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by -harlequin- at 3:55 PM on December 11, 2006