"My liver swells with bile difficult to repress." - Horace (65 BC - 8 BC)
November 26, 2006 10:41 PM Subscribe
OliveOilAndLemonJuiceFilter: Gallbladder "flushes" or other non-surgical techniques to get rid of accumulated gallstones - quackery? effective? safe? icky? First-hand accounts and opinions sought...
Due to a congential red blood cell disorder, I've had "sludge" building up in my gallbladder since early childhood (confirmed by ultrasound), which has since become actual gallstones in adulthood (confirmed by CT scan). The disorder causes my blood cells to break down faster than normal, and the leftover cell bits get stashed in the gallbladder and turn into the sludge - so it's not really a "rich and fatty living" kind of problem. My diet is decent and cholesterol levels are good - 180 as of a few months ago. But the gallstones persist and are probably accumulating.
Luckily, I've been totally asymptomatic...so far. But my risk factors are rising that I'll eventually start having attacks and need to have my gallbladder removed, sooner rather than later. I'm female (three times as likely to have a gallbladder attack as a male), I'm approaching my 30's (prime age), I'm hoping to get pregnant early next year (which definitely ups the chances of an attack), etc.
Various doctors over the years have all basically said, 'well, your gallbladder has a good chance of needing to be removed some day, and there's not much anyone can do about it. We basically have to wait until you have an attack, and then give you emergency surgery.' Gee, thanks. That's especially discouraging since the first attacks could well hit while I'm pregnant, and therefore probably couldn't get the surgery or even take pain meds until after delivery.
So before I decide to sacrifice up another bodily organ on the altar of resigned inevitability, I want to at least try getting rid of some of the accumulated gallstones sans scalpel. At the very least, maybe it can delay the onset of attacks and subsequent surgery.
So, that's where this wacky idea about a gallbladder "flush" comes in. Folk medicine and the Internet are full of stories about using epsom salts, olive oil, and lemon juice to force your gallbladder to dump out some of the stones and sludge. (Typical examples of the genre here, here - slightly NSFW or the squeamish.) But most reputable medical sites think this is bunk, and that the stones passed are actually fatty acids.
Are gallbladder flushes safe and/or effective? Any first-hand accounts here? Any other suggested naturopathic techniques for breaking down gallstones and avoiding gallbladder removal as long as possible?
(Yes, as mentioned, I have talked to doctors about this subject already. But I want to hear what the HiveMind has to say about it. You are not a doctor, I absolve you of all medical liability, blah blah blah.)
Due to a congential red blood cell disorder, I've had "sludge" building up in my gallbladder since early childhood (confirmed by ultrasound), which has since become actual gallstones in adulthood (confirmed by CT scan). The disorder causes my blood cells to break down faster than normal, and the leftover cell bits get stashed in the gallbladder and turn into the sludge - so it's not really a "rich and fatty living" kind of problem. My diet is decent and cholesterol levels are good - 180 as of a few months ago. But the gallstones persist and are probably accumulating.
Luckily, I've been totally asymptomatic...so far. But my risk factors are rising that I'll eventually start having attacks and need to have my gallbladder removed, sooner rather than later. I'm female (three times as likely to have a gallbladder attack as a male), I'm approaching my 30's (prime age), I'm hoping to get pregnant early next year (which definitely ups the chances of an attack), etc.
Various doctors over the years have all basically said, 'well, your gallbladder has a good chance of needing to be removed some day, and there's not much anyone can do about it. We basically have to wait until you have an attack, and then give you emergency surgery.' Gee, thanks. That's especially discouraging since the first attacks could well hit while I'm pregnant, and therefore probably couldn't get the surgery or even take pain meds until after delivery.
So before I decide to sacrifice up another bodily organ on the altar of resigned inevitability, I want to at least try getting rid of some of the accumulated gallstones sans scalpel. At the very least, maybe it can delay the onset of attacks and subsequent surgery.
So, that's where this wacky idea about a gallbladder "flush" comes in. Folk medicine and the Internet are full of stories about using epsom salts, olive oil, and lemon juice to force your gallbladder to dump out some of the stones and sludge. (Typical examples of the genre here, here - slightly NSFW or the squeamish.) But most reputable medical sites think this is bunk, and that the stones passed are actually fatty acids.
Are gallbladder flushes safe and/or effective? Any first-hand accounts here? Any other suggested naturopathic techniques for breaking down gallstones and avoiding gallbladder removal as long as possible?
(Yes, as mentioned, I have talked to doctors about this subject already. But I want to hear what the HiveMind has to say about it. You are not a doctor, I absolve you of all medical liability, blah blah blah.)
I'm a skeptic about these things. Sometimes just the language is enough to put me off. For example, on the page you linked, they describe gall stones as "formed by rancid fats in your diet," which is not true -- they are primarily made up of cholesterol. You might do the flush and some crap might come out but I'm skeptical that it's actually what natural-health fans believe it is.
I can also tell you from experience that gallbladder attacks are indescribably painful.
It took a long time for me to be diagnosed so I had around 15 attacks and almost as many visits to the ER before I managed to convince my gastroenterologist to refer me to a surgeon. If you had to go through that kind of pain without being able to take painkillers, well, I really find that unimaginable. In the ER I was usually given a morphine drip.
So, this is not what you asked, but I'd get it taken out now if your doctor is convinced that attacks are an inevitability and pain meds are forbidden whilst pregnant.
posted by loiseau at 11:03 PM on November 26, 2006
I can also tell you from experience that gallbladder attacks are indescribably painful.
It took a long time for me to be diagnosed so I had around 15 attacks and almost as many visits to the ER before I managed to convince my gastroenterologist to refer me to a surgeon. If you had to go through that kind of pain without being able to take painkillers, well, I really find that unimaginable. In the ER I was usually given a morphine drip.
So, this is not what you asked, but I'd get it taken out now if your doctor is convinced that attacks are an inevitability and pain meds are forbidden whilst pregnant.
posted by loiseau at 11:03 PM on November 26, 2006
My wife tried a bunch of different things in that vein(changes in diet, eating different foods before foods known to bring on an attack, certain teas and brews), in the end the only thing that helped was removal.
She's been painfree for almost a year now, and it's apparently been nothing short of a miracle (for various reasons, the gallbladder issue went undiagnosed for over 15 years).
I would second efalk in that you don't really want to wait for an attack. For whatever reason, pain killing drugs(vicodin and the like) don't really seem to be that effective and short of a knockout shot, the only thing to do is wait it out.
posted by madajb at 11:05 PM on November 26, 2006
She's been painfree for almost a year now, and it's apparently been nothing short of a miracle (for various reasons, the gallbladder issue went undiagnosed for over 15 years).
I would second efalk in that you don't really want to wait for an attack. For whatever reason, pain killing drugs(vicodin and the like) don't really seem to be that effective and short of a knockout shot, the only thing to do is wait it out.
posted by madajb at 11:05 PM on November 26, 2006
Well the problem is that the gallstones don't hurt until they leave your gall bladder, typically. I don't think I'd deliberately try to shift them unless I was sure they were small enough to actually make it out.
posted by fshgrl at 11:07 PM on November 26, 2006
posted by fshgrl at 11:07 PM on November 26, 2006
Best answer: Fats/lipids hitting the stomach and duodenum cause the gall bladder to contract and release bile. While I guess this could act to "flush" some of the stones out, it could also act to "lodge" a big stone in your cystic duct, causing you to have the pain known as "biliary colic." Biliary colic is usually treated by avoiding fatty foods, pain control, and possible referral to a general surgeon for elective (not emergency) surgery.
If the stone gets lodged in the common bile duct (the tube that connects the liver/gall bladder with the pancreatic duct and the duodenum), you can get pancreatitis and choledocholithiasis (fancy term for stone stuck in common bile duct). This increases risk and makes clearing the stone more urgent, as well as the surgery more urgent, and might buy you a hospital admission (but I don't think I'd call it "emergency").
Then again, stones are often passed totally asymptomatically--a certain percentage of the population has gallstones/sludge and just pass them all the time without a clue.
Physiologically, I guess this stuff could work, but physiologically, I guess it could make things worse.
posted by gramcracker at 11:50 PM on November 26, 2006
If the stone gets lodged in the common bile duct (the tube that connects the liver/gall bladder with the pancreatic duct and the duodenum), you can get pancreatitis and choledocholithiasis (fancy term for stone stuck in common bile duct). This increases risk and makes clearing the stone more urgent, as well as the surgery more urgent, and might buy you a hospital admission (but I don't think I'd call it "emergency").
Then again, stones are often passed totally asymptomatically--a certain percentage of the population has gallstones/sludge and just pass them all the time without a clue.
Physiologically, I guess this stuff could work, but physiologically, I guess it could make things worse.
posted by gramcracker at 11:50 PM on November 26, 2006
Don't wait and don't try any DIY home remedies, they could just make it worse. I had mine removed in October after 5 years of passing small stones. They can do it laproscopically, it takes 1.5 hours and the recovery period is approx. 2 weeks. After 3 or 4 days, I stopped taking any pain meds and could get around just fine. I have 4 small incision sites, only one is larger than 1 inch and the rest don't even look like they will scar. I was really nervous, as this was my first surgery (at 29), and it went so much better than I could have ever imagined.
They used to try to break the stones up like they do for kidney stones, but found that if you have made stones in the past, you will keep making them. It isn't always what you eat, as you mention above.
I can't imagine what passing a stone while being pregnant would be like. If a large stone becomes lodged while you are pregnant, you would have all sorts of problems - no pain meds for short term relief, the high probability of emergency abdominal surgery, etc.
posted by blackkar at 3:44 AM on November 27, 2006
They used to try to break the stones up like they do for kidney stones, but found that if you have made stones in the past, you will keep making them. It isn't always what you eat, as you mention above.
I can't imagine what passing a stone while being pregnant would be like. If a large stone becomes lodged while you are pregnant, you would have all sorts of problems - no pain meds for short term relief, the high probability of emergency abdominal surgery, etc.
posted by blackkar at 3:44 AM on November 27, 2006
I thought they had learned to use ultrasound to vibrate the stones into gravel, so it would pass. Maybe that was kidney stones?
Any fatty food is going to make your gall bladder release its contents. This is done under controled conditions to take florescopy images of the gall bladder in action. Or at least, that's how they ussed to do it. Maybe they have a better way now.
posted by Goofyy at 3:49 AM on November 27, 2006
Any fatty food is going to make your gall bladder release its contents. This is done under controled conditions to take florescopy images of the gall bladder in action. Or at least, that's how they ussed to do it. Maybe they have a better way now.
posted by Goofyy at 3:49 AM on November 27, 2006
Best answer: A bad attack will leave you wanting to die.
An attack is, as I understand it, caused by the gall bladder attempting to "birth" the stone through a gap that's too small for it. When you eat fatty foods the gall bladder starts generating bile, and sometimes a stone can get washed along with it.
Drinking olive oil sounds, to me, like the perfect thing to kick the gall bladder into overdrive and bring on that first attack. I wouldn't go anywhere near it.
Ditto baby's first kick in just the right spot.
A tip, though: I've seen gall bladder pain that morphine, pethedine and buprenorphine (not all at the same time!) wouldn't take the edge off disappear with a single, small joint. I never took the "medicinal cannibis" folks too seriously, but it's effect on gall bladder pain was just incredible.
posted by Leon at 4:51 AM on November 27, 2006
An attack is, as I understand it, caused by the gall bladder attempting to "birth" the stone through a gap that's too small for it. When you eat fatty foods the gall bladder starts generating bile, and sometimes a stone can get washed along with it.
Drinking olive oil sounds, to me, like the perfect thing to kick the gall bladder into overdrive and bring on that first attack. I wouldn't go anywhere near it.
Ditto baby's first kick in just the right spot.
A tip, though: I've seen gall bladder pain that morphine, pethedine and buprenorphine (not all at the same time!) wouldn't take the edge off disappear with a single, small joint. I never took the "medicinal cannibis" folks too seriously, but it's effect on gall bladder pain was just incredible.
posted by Leon at 4:51 AM on November 27, 2006
If you are interested in nutritional cures, try Dr Fuhrman. His nutritional advice is backed by lots of science. It is a very radical diet and he does not claim it will cure everything. He also will recommend surgery if he thinks nutrition will not do enough. FWIW: a cholesterol level of 180 is still too high, according to his standards. You will be able to lower it to below 150 easily, if you follow his diet. You can ask him questions if you become a member at his website, so you do not need very expensive doctor visits. It is not free though.
Here is what he said about the "treatment" you mention:
Those are more alternative medicine myths. I have always suspected that those "so-called" gallbladder stones that pass without pain after those olive oil flushes were bogus, I even cut one in half with a scalpal to show a patient it was not a gallstone. But now we have proof. A naturopathic student sent all the stones brought into the school claimed to have been flushed out of the gallbladder and they were shown to be fecaliths, not gallstones. That means that they were little hard rocks of stool, formed when you consume a large amount of oil.
Here is his reply to another member about gallbladder problems:
>Tough question because in some people the gallstones can slowly dissolve over the years of following this diet-style, but in others (rarely) the weight loss can precipitate stone formation and make things worse. You have a slight risk either way. If you remove your gallbladder laperoscopically you prevent the possibility of an acute attack and even an infection that could require hospitalization and surgery in the future, but if you leave it in and stay committed to this way of eating they might never bother you again. Nobody can read the future and tell you the best way to go. I guess if you continue to have gallbladder attacks sticking on this program then it would seem sensible to have the surgery. But if as long as you eat this way you feel fine, I would delay and see how you do with time.
and
Several studies have shown that the risk of dying and/or developing complications is much greater if you choose to have surgery than if you decide to leave the stones alone.
The eating style I recommend, with no oil and the other the nutritional recommendations can be very effective at relieving gallbladder pain and preventing further attacks. Over time they can even disappear.
Doctors will often try to frighten patients into accepting surgery by emphasizing the risk of untreated gallstones as they are unfamiliar with the literature and value of nutritional excellence.
The idea that a gallstone will slip into the duct and get caught causing a severe attack and a serious infection is extremely low. Very rarely do small stones, even those that are being dissolved away through the use of drugs, become trapped in the duct to block it.
Surgery can always be considered if attacks continue to occur. No choice involves zero risk.
But keep in mind that these are replies to other people. I have no idea about your specific situation (especially with a probable pregnancy in the future) and I would not recommend following medical advice you read on an internet forum. If you are serious about not wanting surgery, I recommend you contact Dr Fuhrman. I do not get any commission for recommending him here - and I do not even always agree with his advice - but he does have a good track record at reversing disease with nutritional intervention.
posted by davar at 4:59 AM on November 27, 2006 [1 favorite]
Here is what he said about the "treatment" you mention:
Those are more alternative medicine myths. I have always suspected that those "so-called" gallbladder stones that pass without pain after those olive oil flushes were bogus, I even cut one in half with a scalpal to show a patient it was not a gallstone. But now we have proof. A naturopathic student sent all the stones brought into the school claimed to have been flushed out of the gallbladder and they were shown to be fecaliths, not gallstones. That means that they were little hard rocks of stool, formed when you consume a large amount of oil.
Here is his reply to another member about gallbladder problems:
>Tough question because in some people the gallstones can slowly dissolve over the years of following this diet-style, but in others (rarely) the weight loss can precipitate stone formation and make things worse. You have a slight risk either way. If you remove your gallbladder laperoscopically you prevent the possibility of an acute attack and even an infection that could require hospitalization and surgery in the future, but if you leave it in and stay committed to this way of eating they might never bother you again. Nobody can read the future and tell you the best way to go. I guess if you continue to have gallbladder attacks sticking on this program then it would seem sensible to have the surgery. But if as long as you eat this way you feel fine, I would delay and see how you do with time.
and
Several studies have shown that the risk of dying and/or developing complications is much greater if you choose to have surgery than if you decide to leave the stones alone.
The eating style I recommend, with no oil and the other the nutritional recommendations can be very effective at relieving gallbladder pain and preventing further attacks. Over time they can even disappear.
Doctors will often try to frighten patients into accepting surgery by emphasizing the risk of untreated gallstones as they are unfamiliar with the literature and value of nutritional excellence.
The idea that a gallstone will slip into the duct and get caught causing a severe attack and a serious infection is extremely low. Very rarely do small stones, even those that are being dissolved away through the use of drugs, become trapped in the duct to block it.
Surgery can always be considered if attacks continue to occur. No choice involves zero risk.
But keep in mind that these are replies to other people. I have no idea about your specific situation (especially with a probable pregnancy in the future) and I would not recommend following medical advice you read on an internet forum. If you are serious about not wanting surgery, I recommend you contact Dr Fuhrman. I do not get any commission for recommending him here - and I do not even always agree with his advice - but he does have a good track record at reversing disease with nutritional intervention.
posted by davar at 4:59 AM on November 27, 2006 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I did some of the olive oil/grapefruit juice/epsom salt flushes, and still had gallbladder attacks. They're horrible - they take away your will to live. I didn't want to have mine removed, though, so tried to find another way. I followed the advice of a raw guru (a self-taught raw/vegan advocate who uses food to heal) and started juicing with pineapple, and never had another attack after that. I'll find her advice and email it to you if you like. It's just plain old pineapple juice, and you just plain old drink it - no flushes or grossness or weirdness involved.
posted by iconomy at 5:37 AM on November 27, 2006
posted by iconomy at 5:37 AM on November 27, 2006
Best answer: Sorry, I know this doesn't directly address the question you asked, but have you considered going to yet another doctor? I'm going to have my gallbladder out, even though I have had no attacks as yet (knock wood) because I have other medical conditions which would make emergency surgery difficult. My doctor is very supportive of this, and it is definitely something that many doctors do. Perhaps a second (tenth, twenty-eighth) opinion would get you a doctor who can help you.
There are studies that support prophylactic cholecystectomies in people with spherocytosis who have gallstones -- it might be worth printing them out and taking them with you to the doctor as backup.
posted by katemonster at 6:16 AM on November 27, 2006
There are studies that support prophylactic cholecystectomies in people with spherocytosis who have gallstones -- it might be worth printing them out and taking them with you to the doctor as backup.
posted by katemonster at 6:16 AM on November 27, 2006
Best answer: When I talked to my naturopath about gallbladder stuff, she looked me directly in the eye & said, "Do not go following any 'natural' or 'naturopathic' home remedies you find on the internet for this. Don't go there. You're much more likely to bring on an attack than to prevent one. If you have another attack, go to the emergency room."
posted by susanbeeswax at 8:10 AM on November 27, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by susanbeeswax at 8:10 AM on November 27, 2006 [1 favorite]
Just get it out. The recovery from the surgery to remove my gall bladder was nothing compared to the pain of the attack that necessitated it.
posted by Jaie at 9:32 AM on November 27, 2006
posted by Jaie at 9:32 AM on November 27, 2006
I'm in the same boat as you. It seems inevitable I'll need mine out sooner or later. Like you I've looked around for alternatives and found nothing credible. I'e had one attack of pain so far and it is pretty damned crippling. Like being impaled, so that it hurts like hell all the time, but any movement is far worse.
For what it's worth, the gall bladder appears to be one of the least essential organs in the body. According to my specialist, its sole function is to store the bile your liver produces continuously so that it can be squirted out in quantity if you have a fatty meal. All that will happen once its gone is that your body will ramp up its continuous bile production a little to compensate for its inability to store bile in the gall bladder. You won't notice much at all except if you OD on very fatty stuff.
As others have noted the pain is actually caused by matter blocking or getting stuck in the duct. If a "flush" did work as advertised the first thing you'd notice would be... a gall bladder pain attack.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 11:27 AM on November 27, 2006
For what it's worth, the gall bladder appears to be one of the least essential organs in the body. According to my specialist, its sole function is to store the bile your liver produces continuously so that it can be squirted out in quantity if you have a fatty meal. All that will happen once its gone is that your body will ramp up its continuous bile production a little to compensate for its inability to store bile in the gall bladder. You won't notice much at all except if you OD on very fatty stuff.
As others have noted the pain is actually caused by matter blocking or getting stuck in the duct. If a "flush" did work as advertised the first thing you'd notice would be... a gall bladder pain attack.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 11:27 AM on November 27, 2006
There is some research that indicates gallstones may be caused in part by a Vitamin C deficiency, but I have no details other than a Google search for Vitamin C and gallstones. I do not know if increasing Vitamin C can help reduce them or not, but it may be worth looking into.
posted by Katravax at 2:41 PM on November 27, 2006
posted by Katravax at 2:41 PM on November 27, 2006
My wife just had hers out three weeks ago (at age 53). She'd had increasing discomfort all summer, though no attacks. The worst symptoms were feeling extremely full after a moderately large meal, and frequent belching. She has a relatively high tolerance for pain, but she would have noticed a real attack! Her surgery was routine and her only complaint so far is soreness after too much bending or stretching.
Her older sister had her gall bladder out some 21 or 22 years ago, while pregnant (and before lathroscopy). Mother and child came through the experience just fine.
posted by lhauser at 7:18 PM on November 27, 2006
Her older sister had her gall bladder out some 21 or 22 years ago, while pregnant (and before lathroscopy). Mother and child came through the experience just fine.
posted by lhauser at 7:18 PM on November 27, 2006
Response by poster: Thank you everybody, for your comments. Looks like I will not be chugging olive oil any time soon, and you probably shouldn't either.
(I may try iconomy's pineapple juice suggestion, though, because hey, who doesn't like sweet sweet pineapple?)
posted by Asparagirl at 8:13 PM on November 29, 2006
(I may try iconomy's pineapple juice suggestion, though, because hey, who doesn't like sweet sweet pineapple?)
posted by Asparagirl at 8:13 PM on November 29, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
I was essentially given two options, live without fatty foods forever, and have no more attacks, or get the organ removed. No one mentioned flushes, and it wasn't in any of the literature given to me. But considering the even remote possibility of another attack I wanted that thing gone, and i have an immense fear of hospitals.
The removal is relatively non-invasive, assuming they go in lathroscopicly (sp?) and my recovery was exceedingly better than i thought it would be. Two months out and my body is processing fats relatively well. There are complications that could arise, but in my experience, you really, really don't want to wait for an attack.
Good luck :)
posted by efalk at 10:55 PM on November 26, 2006